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guys, please stop thinking one-dimensionally. 1.) we are different from you. Just because you're not offended by a jesus picture doesn't mean that we're not offended by a muhammad (pbuh) picture. 2.) these pictures come in a certain context. This is what we perceive as an islamophobic background in many western countries & the publication in a conservative mainstream newspaper. For this reason we think the generalisation that Muslims are terrorists is dangerous to us. Much more dangerous than a picture of Jesus, Lassie, etc. would be to you. Rajab 11:01, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
DanielDemaret 11:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The main mistake here is that the artist or the journal claimed that is prophet Muhammad , if they make critics from islamic Extremists or islamic religion-men , I,m sure u wouldn,t hear any complains but by saying that Muhammad u make all muslims moderate and extreme concern about that , islam is also linked to terrorism and historical understanding obviously in these pics , and many muslims protest now for depicting all muslims as Extremists ... that is why wee say that these pics is full of Hate and racism .I tried to express what many muslims think , and u should understand this sensitivity to understand the reaction -- Chaos 11:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Nomen , we know the relativity very well , but who begins the generalization is ur artists , we know that some muslims gove bad representation of islam is denmark and netherlands , and the crime of killing Van kock is one of manythings could be done by stupid muslims , but at last u generalize by using the person who is most important to all muslims and u links him to these bad examples , that is against the spirit of understanding and relativity that call for , u have to understand also that this anger is complex anger and doesn,t represent one event , and u should understand that most refuges in ur country has escaped from tolitarist regimes which leads to this appearance of Extremism .... understanding all of that can give u more rational view of teh status . -- Chaos 11:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I have included the following paragraph under a new subheading:
Pictorial surveys of Islamic religious art can be found at [6], [7], and [8]. Note that the last site also contains some extremely and intentionally offensive modern depictions of Muhammad.
Most contemporary Muslims now believe that portraits and photos, films and illustrations, are permissible. Only some Salafi and Islamist interpretations of Sunni Islam have condemned pictorial representations of any kind, consistent with their emphasis on strict observance of Muslim law. Offensive satirical pictures is somewhat different to the situation discribed above; disrespect to Islam or to Muhammad is considered blasphemous, or even sacrilegious. According to the BBC "It is the satirical intent of the cartoonists, and the association of the Prophet with terrorism, that is so offensive to the vast majority of Muslims."[9] As Muhammad is considered the proto-typical Muslim the association with terrorism is percieved as a generalisation to all Muslims. Furthermore the cartoons were published in a conservative mainstream newspaper in the context of what many Muslims perceive as an islamophobic mood in many of the western countries involved. In this context the Jyllands-Posten cartoons are viewed as considerably more dangerous to Muslims than comparable cartoons of Jesus would be to a Christian living in the west.
Please let me know what you think Rajab 11:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Sir .. plz understand that tehre is two sides of POV .. Danish ppl see that Muslims' view point is POv and Muslims see that ur viewpoint is POV -- Chaos 13:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, someone has just deleted the whole section. Rajab 15:59, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
This is quite similiar to Bush's proposal where "annoying on the internet" would be punishable. C'mon, I know you can be boiling mad, but you shouldn't be so silly to think that everyone is the same person and thinks that the exact same things are offending. Therefore, the pictures should stay. They're only for the sake of clarifying, too. Although, if this is really an issue, someone could put a link to the picture rather than thumbnailing it on the first paragraph.-- 84.249.252.211 11:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)?
Surely under events we should have the embassy burning and the attempt at U.N. sanctions? - Ta bu shi da yu 13:53, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Personally I agree, although even thinking about editing this topic makes me feel insignificant. - ChaosEmerald 10:45 5 Feb 06
Keeping up with the events arising from this is going to be very complex. There have now been protests in Auckland New Zealand after a paper there ran the cartoons as "an expression of solidarity" or somesuch.
Continuing a discussion, requesting translation or English summary of the pages of the document scanned here: [7]
Spiegel ( http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,398624,00.html) and others have written about Ahmed Akkari's tour of muslim nations, spreading a "43-page dossier" discussing their grievances about the Danish cartoons.
Has anybody here seen this 43-page document? 70.89.39.158 06:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
the pics are scanning of messages and letters between the some muslim organizations and JP and danish goverments with details of meeting and response of islamic goverments and international islamic organzations -- Chaos 15:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I am pleased that wikipaedia has shown this information, not because I am for or against it, but because If I am going to have a view on the topic, I believe the cartoons being discussed shoud be available to those who want to look for them. Mostother news outlets have not shown the cartoon, which rather takes the value out of their reports if the reader can't see for themselves what is being discussed.
I speak arabic fluently. However the links to the scanned pages at the site you were taking about are all broken [ [11]]. Am I missing something? -- 130.111.19.110 18:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)Bashar
Shall we merge the Rumours and disinformation and Rumours and disinformation regarding the images sections? They sound confusingly similar, and I'm not sure what the difference between them is. — Kimchi.sg | Talk 17:03, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Jyllands-Posten published two open letters on its website, both in Danish and Arabic versions, and the second letter also in an English version. [1] [2] The second letter was dated 30 January.
Could someone put a sentance or two together explaining the jist of these letters? I went to the link to read them, and they're not remarkable. A few words explaining what they are would save others from having to read them themselves.
The article in which the cartoons first appeared in Jyllands Posten is available here in Danish. If anybody could provide an English translation, it might help to put things into context. The images aren't there, just the text.
Liam Plested 19:01, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The face of Mohammad.
The comedian Frank Hvam recently admitted that he "wouldn't make fun of the Koran, because he fears what might happen". A cartoonist, who is to depict Mohammad in a childrens book, wants to remain anonymus. So does westerneuropean translators of a islamcritical essaycollections.
A leading museum of art removes a work of art due to the reactions of the muslims. In this season, three acts are being made with satire against Bush, but not one about bin Laden and his allies, and during a meeting with prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, a imam encourages the government to make their infuence towards muslims more forcing, so that they can make a more positive picture of islam.
The mentioned examples gives reason to concern, whether the fear is based on fake asumptions or not. The fact is that it exsist and that it leads to selfcensorship. A intimidating of the public room arises. Thus, artists, writers, cartoonists, translators and playwrights avoids the important cultural meeting of our time, the one between islam and the sekularized, western society based on christianity.
The stultification The modern, sekilarized is being dismissed by some muslims. They require a exceptional position, when they insist on a special considaration for their own religious feelings. That can't be united with a temporal democarcy and freedom of speech, in which you have to accept scorn, mockery and stultification. It is not definently not always a sympatethic sight, and that doesn't mean that religious feelings should be made a fool of at any cost, but in the context, it is subordinate.
Thus, it is not accidental that people in totalitarian societies goes to jail for telling jokes or depicting dictators with critisism. Usually that happens with a reference that it hurt the fellings of the people. In Denmark, it hasn't reached that level, but the above mentioned examples shows that we're entering a slide of selfcensorship that noone knows where will end.
12 cartoonists For the stated reasons, Jyllands-Postnen has encouraged the members of the carotoonists union to depict Mohammad in the way that they think of him. 12 out of the ca. 40 have responded to the request and we are showing their drawings with their names attaced to their drawing. They are: Arne Sørensen, Poul Erik Poulsen (PEP), Rasmus Sand Høyer, Erik Abild Sørensen, Franz Füchsel, Peder Bundgaard, Bob Katzenelson, Annette Carlsen, Lars Refn, Jens Julius Hansen, Claus Seidel og Kurt Westergaard.
Only 25 out of the 40 are active and some of the active have a clausule. A few have reasoned their no to the request, others have said that they were busy doing other drawings, while others didn't responded at all.
(Authors comment: Sorry for the bad english, but I was in a hurry, if you want, correct the spelling. I'd like to emphazize that noone should take the translation literally, as I havent translated it word-by-word!) 80.62.172.74 19:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Cheers. If you speak Danish, you might want to give the link to the Danish Wikipedians, too.
Liam Plested 19:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the following sentence from the article, then Peripatetic restored it: "A number of Muslim commentators, such as Ehsan Ahrari of the Asia Times, have also noted that offensive imagery regarding the Jewish religion and the Jewish people is no longer tolerated in the media in post- Holocaust Europe, which has voluntarily curtailed their freedom of expression on such a sensitive matter; nonetheless, similar attacks on the Islamic faith remain acceptable." This is a POV piece of original research. To say that these people have "noted" this is to suggest that it exists, and they have simply observed it. Many people would utterly disagree that "offensive imagery regarding the...Jewish people is no longer tolerated...". If you look at the New anti-semitism article, many people believe (though I don't really agree with them) that anti-Jewish imagery is alive and well in the European media. Secondly, it asserts that freedom of expression has been "curtailed" by the alleged decision not to run anti-Jewish imagery; thirdly it asserts that it "remains acceptable" to attack Islam in the European media. Where? Which corners? In The Guardian? In the Independent? In Le Monde? If these three arguments are to be presented, each of these points must be clearly set forth as the argument of a particular writer. As of now, the first one is "noted", and the second two follow as facts underlying what he noted. Babajobu 18:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've deleted the phrase "...because religions do not enjoy the same protections in Europe as homosexuals do. Indeed, a number of Muslim and Christian clerics have been jailed in Scandinavian countries for stating their religious belief that homosexuality is a sin. Attacking people on the basis of religion, on the other hand, is seen as "fair game" in Europe." This is unencyclopedic, barely verifiable, it violates npov and it reeks of original research. If edited, it might be usable, but in this wording it's not. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 18:57, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
- :What would be a better wording that actually mentions the hypocrisy?? It is absolutely verifiable that Muslim and Christian clerics are jailed in Scandinavia, if they dare suggest that homosexuality is a sin. But "hate speech" when directed against religion is protected as "free speech", and is not punished. This is seen as part of the hypocrisy. Help me edit out pov wording. Blockinblox 19:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'm doing some research now to find examples, here's one I've got so far: Ake Green
I am sorry but I cannot allow you to spread disinformation. Have you tried reading the article you are referring too? As a service I will quote it for you: “Åke Green (born 3 June 1941) is a Pentecostal Christian pastor who was sentenced to one month in prison under Sweden's law against hate speech. On February 11, 2005 an appeals court, Göta hovrätt, overturned the decision and acquitted Åke Green. On March 9, the Prosecutor-General appealed this decision to the Supreme Court, which on November 29 also acquitted him. In their opinion, while Åke Green had violated Swedish law as it currently stands, a conviction would most likely be overturned by the European Court of Human Rights, based on their previous rulings regarding Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights.” Now, I dont want to make any assumptions about the country you live in, but here in Scandinavia “acquitted” means that the courts clear you of all charges. That’s pretty bad research so far…20:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
- ::Okay, let's make a closer hypothetical paralell. Let's just say some right wing newspaper in Europe published some cartoons showing homosexuals in a rather bad light (similar to what Muslims are perceived.) - Use your imagination what kind of cartoons they might draw. What would happen to them?? Or are they free to do so?? Blockinblox 20:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I deleted this section because it was nothing but a POV written like an editorial, with no sources at all. ( Cloud02 19:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC))
I was shocked to see that Socialism has been counted as an extemist ideology alongside Nazism and "Islamism" (whatever that may be). Surely there are no grounds for this? If this label were replaced with Stalinism or Maxist-Leninism then the association would be fairer but I tend to think that these positions are so disparate that any association risks being cause for confusion. Socialism is a widely accepted and respected political philosophy that bears none of the negative connotations of the two other ideologies. To my knowledge, the label "socialist" commonly refers to individuals with moderate political views that do not call for the violent and lawless toppling of democratically elected governments (unlike islamists and nazis). This urgently needs to be rectified.
Why isn't there a section dedicated to racist attacks against muslims and muslim property in Denmark and Europe as a result of this episode? So far, the article seems only interested in acts of violence perpertrated by muslims.
Here is a loose translation of the short article from 'Politiken'.
"Although the Saturday demonstration on Raadhuspladen was peaceful, it was dented, when a couple of the demonstrators recognized the polemical Pakistani author and journalist Mohammad Rafiq. A couple of years ago, Mohammad Rafiq wrote a polemical book about arranged marriage, and has since been unpopular in the extreme Islamic environment. Today, while standing on the Raadhuspladens and photographing the demonstration, 3 second generation emigrants [a direct translation of this Danish’m] attacked him, breaking his mobile phone. The Pakistani author was taken to the ER and received stitches on one eye.
"I have tried to encourage a dialogue, and then I get clobbered [loosely translated] says Mohammad Rafiq, who in the today’s Politiken expresses concern that the network of moderate Muslims instigated by Naser Khader [a moderate Danish Muslim politician with Syrian background] will only increase the polarisation of the Muslims in Denmark, and therefore encourages reconsiliation." Mila 82.26.164.194 23:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The culturel gap is more like a interplanetary void. Its a drawing of a man, drawing Muhammad and fearing what (some) muslims will do to him. It seems like the newspaper does not understand it at all. And it isnt Bluitgen, its the guy who drew it. 192.38.4.198 21:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I think we're talking about the picture with the apple on the turban? That's Bluitgen alright. Azate 21:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
ohh Now I see it. Ups! Apupunchau 01:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Currently, JP is labelled "right wing". Before it was "centre right". JP (on its own page) calls itself »et af private, erhvervsmæssige, organisationsmæssige og partipolitiske interesser uafhængigt liberalt dagblad.« That is: »private, commercial, independent of political parties and other organisations, liberal daily newspaper.« Isn't "right wing" too judgemental? It reeks of fascism. I think "centre right" was fair. Azate 21:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The section still needs a bit of work... It would be nice if an Arabic speaking person would find the original quote for the article in Al-Hayat. Kjaergaard 21:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Links fixed. Kjaergaard 21:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
So far, I have not heard of any of the images being published by a major American newspaper, and the story is more or less being put on the back burner by the mainstream media, for bettor or worse. Yet, the first paragraph states that the images have been printed in the US. Does anyone have a source for this? I removed the US from the list of countries whose press had published the images yesterday, but specifically said that if someone can show that hey had indeed been printed to provide a souce and immediately revert my edit. I am unable to find a citation for this, and I have to wonder at the motives for placing the US in the list when that may not really be the case. AscendedAnathema 21:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
It has been published in the "Philadelphia Inquirer", the oldest Newspaper in the U.S.A. that is still alive. Search the article for "Philadelphia" and you will find the relevant link and more. In the Phil.Inq.'s article, the list several other news outlets in the US that have published some or all of the pictures, ABCNews among them, as far as I remember. Please re-insert the USA. Azate 21:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I thought this new policy was not supposed to apply to current events that require frequent updates and participation by many users. The July bombings in London, for example, benefited greatly from the lack of protection. It also hurts users of other European Wikipedias, like the Danish, who may want to edit English Wikipedia on this occasion. Tfine80 22:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I guess it's because sombody kept inserting huge penis-photos at the very top of the page every minute or so,until it was protected... Azate 22:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
It's unclear to me why this image is located at the top of the page of the article. Typically in Wikipedia, when people have objectede images that some may find offensive are further down the page, if they are on the page at all. For example the articles penis, breasts. It seems to me that a significant minority of people are quite genuine that they find these images offensive. Personally I don't get it, I can't see anything any more offensive here than in a children's comic - they are only satirical cartoons. However as there are those that are genuinely very offended, I don't understand why there would be opposition to at least moving the images further down the page. I realise that there was already a vote on this, however I think the vote was ended prematurely - and it would appear my last comments on this subject were archived within minutes of me making them! Nfitz 22:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Should we include the front cover of the book (Koranen og profeten Muhammeds liv)? Or perhaps one of the other images from it? Geni 22:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
That would certainly be a surrealistic confirmation of the cleverness of a couple of the cartoons ! (a nice degree of additional advertisement :-) Mila
and look at this rationally. The problem is that some people are getting worked up over the cartoons and others are getting worked up that the first group of people are getting worked up. I respectfully suggest that EVERYONE needs to calm down.
The showing of the cartoons is not unreasonable. BUT their position is. And NOT because I am saying it is offensive or anything of that nature. This article is currently titled "Jyllands-Posten Muhammed cartoons controversy". This article is NOT supposed to be about the cartoons, but the controversy surrounding the cartoons. Therefore the introductory picture to this article should be a picture of the resulting controversy. Such as some flag burning, or embassy burning or pictures of various marches or whatever. THAT is what the article is about, so THAT is what the introductory picture should be. But there is a problem that whenever someone tries to suggest moving it people cry "Freedom of Speech!" and think that ends all arguments. It DOES end SOME arguments about the presence of these cartoons in this article but it doesn't justify their presence at the top of this article, because as I pointed out this article is not about the cartoons themselves. If another article is created that IS about these cartoons then yes I would agree that the cartoons belong at the top of THAT article.-- Stenun 22:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC) (edit: sorry, forgot to add my sig)
Personally, I don't care if it's on top or middle as long as its in a relevant position and, you know, not deleted, if you can find a picture of protestors and put them up there while placing the cartoons down in the discription section, go for it, I won't stop you, but the problem is many people will, what your saying does seem like a good idea, but you'll have to tell that to people to get some consensus on it. Homestarmy 23:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
There is little in the cartoons themselves to suggest that the figure satirized is the prophet from the Koran. All that the caricatures share in common is the depiction of a bearded man in turban. Is there an iconographical tradition that I am missing which definitely narrows the subject down to the religious prophet? Even considering the context of the JP article ("Muhammeds ansigt"), who is there to say that the cartoons do not portray another Mohammed, perhaps one directly associated with terrorism, e.g., Mohammed Atta? It seems one interpretation of the cartoon is being tacitly assumed at the expense of all others. -- KCargill 22:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
"Die Welt has recently reported that the murder of a Catholic priest in Turkey is believed to be at the hands of protesters of the cartoons."
The above section I wrote after consulting welt.de, but it has been removed twice. I believe this is in good faith, but the user who has done it isn't able to reply so I will give anyone who can read german a chance to decide for hisself. Chooserr 23:00, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
risin' 23:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Reads: "Western counties typically"
Should be "Western countries typically..."
Also, many references should be attached to their text, such as
- Mardus 23:06, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Could anyone put a reference for that section? Even though there are references to pictures, there isn't any reference to the actual claim. Who claims it? Where is it claimed? etc.
I am copying conversation with one anonymous Muslim person from Serbian Wikipedia. -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
In other words, if someone wants to talk about this issue on Serbian Wikipedia, (s)he should not worry about seeing the picture inside of the first part of the article. I suggest that English Wikipedia (as well as other Wikipedias which have the picture) should do at least the same which we did (I mean moving the comincs down, on the second page in the resolution 1280x1024; the text is big enough to do that.). -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
We got that same guy here I think, (the raping things of Islam is the tip off) he might of spammed many of our userpages, but I think I gave him quite an admirable reply personally. If the Serbian Wiki wants it down the page, then by all means, they should have it down the page. But you've got to admit, the English Wiki is not the same community as the Serbian wiki, as, well, most of us probably are not living in or near serbia. Homestarmy 23:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I unfortunately realized that, Poll 3 is killed. I think some people among the admins here has some fear of democracy and freedom of speech, while they are talking about 'freedom of speech'. I do not know Danmark, haven't been there, but I can certainly say that, there is no freedom of speech -even in a discussion page- and democracy in our very Wikipedia based on my experiences. I am saddened and very dissapointed for it.
I believe that Wiki community will stop these subjective actions and support the democracy and freedom of speech which we all for them, at home. Resid Gulerdem 23:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Please, if at any point anyone wants to set up a new poll here, do not do so till a reasonable degree of concensus has been reached about the options and format of the poll. Otherwise, drawing conclusions from the poll will be difficult, and people will not feel bound by the conclusions. As for poll 3, here is why it was inappropriate at this point: A clear majority voted "Keep" in poll 1, and it is evident that most did it because they believe people should be enabled to see the object of this controversy, and perhaps form their own opinion of it. Showing only those drawings that were not the object of the controversy would not really satisfy that need; it would be a bit like just showing the logo of Jyllandsposten. Of course, a couple of the drawings are (quite amusing) comments on the whole affair, rather than actually drwaings of the prophet. They might well serve as illustrations near the top of the article, even if the rest of the drawings had been voted out or hidden somewhere else. But the vote from polls 1 and 2 was to keep articles at top, and therefore, the result of poll 3 was given from the start - unless a significantly different voter population could be mustered.-- Niels Ø 02:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Please also add this link of how muslims have been Cartooning Jews for many years, and nobody ever got outraged:
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm
Ehhh, that seems really POV and beyond the scope of this article, besides, I think we've debated that already. Homestarmy 02:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there an equivalent to Rot13 for images? In that way, those that wish to view controversial/offensive images can. Those that don't, won't. This method has been used by Usenet for decades. -- Rwcitek 01:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Rexnl twice removed my insertion of the audio pronunciation of Jyllands-Posten. He says it is distracting.
Most readers are English speakers and will be clueless trying to pronounce that newspaper, which is a principle party in this matter. If the link is removed, readers can still click to find out more, but 99%+ of readers will pass by because there is too much to read to go looking at derivative articles. Arguments against are weak. How is linking once in the intro "distracting"? No harm and its helpful. To avoid a dumb revert war, a couple of ppl agree with me please. Lotsofissues 01:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I sooo totally agree with you. Apupunchau 01:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you too. Remember, if he reverts it four times he could be blocked for 24 hours. -
Maverick 01:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
After further looking at it, I do believe that he is acting in good faith. I'm gonna stay outta this one, as I don't really have an opinion on it anymore - Maverick 01:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Just use IPA. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 04:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Just wanted to say that this is probably the most informative, complete and balanced article I have found on the subject. My compliments and thanks to all those that have contributed.
Gilraen
When you read it from an outside POV, it is really quite well done! Everyone here who has been contributing should be quite proud of what has been accomplished, in the midst of all the uproar!!! Nfitz 02:57, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I want to add my compliments too. This is without a doubt the most comprehensive source of non biased information. It is only because of everyone's hard work here. Congratulations and thank you. A special thanks to those who have tried to add calm when emotions started to take over -- Mmmsnouts 03:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
[la:Jyllands-Posten_ob_illustrationes_Mochameti_%28Muhammedi%29_controversia]
-
Mardus 02:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Added this under the Rumours and Misconceptions section, but it was edited away:
Public burnings of the Qur'an - Saturday the 4th of February it was rumoured that neo-nazi groups in Denmark would gather in public plazas and burn copies of the Qur'an, which is considered sacrilege. Although several disjunct demonstrations took place, encouraging tolerance, respect for freedom of speech, anti-racism, there have been no reports on any burnings of the Qur'an. Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Møller declared on international TV that "No Qur'ans have been burned and the police have been instructed to prevent any occasions of the Qur'an being burned."
I don't have a source, but I know for a fact that it is true. Even though there is no citation I still think it is an important enough controversy to mention, as there are people thinking that books were burned with government consensus.
Please refresh yourself with WP:V. We can't take it on your word; you must provide citations. Which you have admitted that you cannot. -- Cyde Weys 03:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
As fast as this page goes, I'm not sure if this has been linked, but it gives a good history of images of muhammad. [16] Arkon 03:08, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
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This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
guys, please stop thinking one-dimensionally. 1.) we are different from you. Just because you're not offended by a jesus picture doesn't mean that we're not offended by a muhammad (pbuh) picture. 2.) these pictures come in a certain context. This is what we perceive as an islamophobic background in many western countries & the publication in a conservative mainstream newspaper. For this reason we think the generalisation that Muslims are terrorists is dangerous to us. Much more dangerous than a picture of Jesus, Lassie, etc. would be to you. Rajab 11:01, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
DanielDemaret 11:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The main mistake here is that the artist or the journal claimed that is prophet Muhammad , if they make critics from islamic Extremists or islamic religion-men , I,m sure u wouldn,t hear any complains but by saying that Muhammad u make all muslims moderate and extreme concern about that , islam is also linked to terrorism and historical understanding obviously in these pics , and many muslims protest now for depicting all muslims as Extremists ... that is why wee say that these pics is full of Hate and racism .I tried to express what many muslims think , and u should understand this sensitivity to understand the reaction -- Chaos 11:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Nomen , we know the relativity very well , but who begins the generalization is ur artists , we know that some muslims gove bad representation of islam is denmark and netherlands , and the crime of killing Van kock is one of manythings could be done by stupid muslims , but at last u generalize by using the person who is most important to all muslims and u links him to these bad examples , that is against the spirit of understanding and relativity that call for , u have to understand also that this anger is complex anger and doesn,t represent one event , and u should understand that most refuges in ur country has escaped from tolitarist regimes which leads to this appearance of Extremism .... understanding all of that can give u more rational view of teh status . -- Chaos 11:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I have included the following paragraph under a new subheading:
Pictorial surveys of Islamic religious art can be found at [6], [7], and [8]. Note that the last site also contains some extremely and intentionally offensive modern depictions of Muhammad.
Most contemporary Muslims now believe that portraits and photos, films and illustrations, are permissible. Only some Salafi and Islamist interpretations of Sunni Islam have condemned pictorial representations of any kind, consistent with their emphasis on strict observance of Muslim law. Offensive satirical pictures is somewhat different to the situation discribed above; disrespect to Islam or to Muhammad is considered blasphemous, or even sacrilegious. According to the BBC "It is the satirical intent of the cartoonists, and the association of the Prophet with terrorism, that is so offensive to the vast majority of Muslims."[9] As Muhammad is considered the proto-typical Muslim the association with terrorism is percieved as a generalisation to all Muslims. Furthermore the cartoons were published in a conservative mainstream newspaper in the context of what many Muslims perceive as an islamophobic mood in many of the western countries involved. In this context the Jyllands-Posten cartoons are viewed as considerably more dangerous to Muslims than comparable cartoons of Jesus would be to a Christian living in the west.
Please let me know what you think Rajab 11:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Sir .. plz understand that tehre is two sides of POV .. Danish ppl see that Muslims' view point is POv and Muslims see that ur viewpoint is POV -- Chaos 13:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, someone has just deleted the whole section. Rajab 15:59, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
This is quite similiar to Bush's proposal where "annoying on the internet" would be punishable. C'mon, I know you can be boiling mad, but you shouldn't be so silly to think that everyone is the same person and thinks that the exact same things are offending. Therefore, the pictures should stay. They're only for the sake of clarifying, too. Although, if this is really an issue, someone could put a link to the picture rather than thumbnailing it on the first paragraph.-- 84.249.252.211 11:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)?
Surely under events we should have the embassy burning and the attempt at U.N. sanctions? - Ta bu shi da yu 13:53, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Personally I agree, although even thinking about editing this topic makes me feel insignificant. - ChaosEmerald 10:45 5 Feb 06
Keeping up with the events arising from this is going to be very complex. There have now been protests in Auckland New Zealand after a paper there ran the cartoons as "an expression of solidarity" or somesuch.
Continuing a discussion, requesting translation or English summary of the pages of the document scanned here: [7]
Spiegel ( http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,398624,00.html) and others have written about Ahmed Akkari's tour of muslim nations, spreading a "43-page dossier" discussing their grievances about the Danish cartoons.
Has anybody here seen this 43-page document? 70.89.39.158 06:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
the pics are scanning of messages and letters between the some muslim organizations and JP and danish goverments with details of meeting and response of islamic goverments and international islamic organzations -- Chaos 15:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I am pleased that wikipaedia has shown this information, not because I am for or against it, but because If I am going to have a view on the topic, I believe the cartoons being discussed shoud be available to those who want to look for them. Mostother news outlets have not shown the cartoon, which rather takes the value out of their reports if the reader can't see for themselves what is being discussed.
I speak arabic fluently. However the links to the scanned pages at the site you were taking about are all broken [ [11]]. Am I missing something? -- 130.111.19.110 18:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)Bashar
Shall we merge the Rumours and disinformation and Rumours and disinformation regarding the images sections? They sound confusingly similar, and I'm not sure what the difference between them is. — Kimchi.sg | Talk 17:03, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Jyllands-Posten published two open letters on its website, both in Danish and Arabic versions, and the second letter also in an English version. [1] [2] The second letter was dated 30 January.
Could someone put a sentance or two together explaining the jist of these letters? I went to the link to read them, and they're not remarkable. A few words explaining what they are would save others from having to read them themselves.
The article in which the cartoons first appeared in Jyllands Posten is available here in Danish. If anybody could provide an English translation, it might help to put things into context. The images aren't there, just the text.
Liam Plested 19:01, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The face of Mohammad.
The comedian Frank Hvam recently admitted that he "wouldn't make fun of the Koran, because he fears what might happen". A cartoonist, who is to depict Mohammad in a childrens book, wants to remain anonymus. So does westerneuropean translators of a islamcritical essaycollections.
A leading museum of art removes a work of art due to the reactions of the muslims. In this season, three acts are being made with satire against Bush, but not one about bin Laden and his allies, and during a meeting with prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, a imam encourages the government to make their infuence towards muslims more forcing, so that they can make a more positive picture of islam.
The mentioned examples gives reason to concern, whether the fear is based on fake asumptions or not. The fact is that it exsist and that it leads to selfcensorship. A intimidating of the public room arises. Thus, artists, writers, cartoonists, translators and playwrights avoids the important cultural meeting of our time, the one between islam and the sekularized, western society based on christianity.
The stultification The modern, sekilarized is being dismissed by some muslims. They require a exceptional position, when they insist on a special considaration for their own religious feelings. That can't be united with a temporal democarcy and freedom of speech, in which you have to accept scorn, mockery and stultification. It is not definently not always a sympatethic sight, and that doesn't mean that religious feelings should be made a fool of at any cost, but in the context, it is subordinate.
Thus, it is not accidental that people in totalitarian societies goes to jail for telling jokes or depicting dictators with critisism. Usually that happens with a reference that it hurt the fellings of the people. In Denmark, it hasn't reached that level, but the above mentioned examples shows that we're entering a slide of selfcensorship that noone knows where will end.
12 cartoonists For the stated reasons, Jyllands-Postnen has encouraged the members of the carotoonists union to depict Mohammad in the way that they think of him. 12 out of the ca. 40 have responded to the request and we are showing their drawings with their names attaced to their drawing. They are: Arne Sørensen, Poul Erik Poulsen (PEP), Rasmus Sand Høyer, Erik Abild Sørensen, Franz Füchsel, Peder Bundgaard, Bob Katzenelson, Annette Carlsen, Lars Refn, Jens Julius Hansen, Claus Seidel og Kurt Westergaard.
Only 25 out of the 40 are active and some of the active have a clausule. A few have reasoned their no to the request, others have said that they were busy doing other drawings, while others didn't responded at all.
(Authors comment: Sorry for the bad english, but I was in a hurry, if you want, correct the spelling. I'd like to emphazize that noone should take the translation literally, as I havent translated it word-by-word!) 80.62.172.74 19:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Cheers. If you speak Danish, you might want to give the link to the Danish Wikipedians, too.
Liam Plested 19:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the following sentence from the article, then Peripatetic restored it: "A number of Muslim commentators, such as Ehsan Ahrari of the Asia Times, have also noted that offensive imagery regarding the Jewish religion and the Jewish people is no longer tolerated in the media in post- Holocaust Europe, which has voluntarily curtailed their freedom of expression on such a sensitive matter; nonetheless, similar attacks on the Islamic faith remain acceptable." This is a POV piece of original research. To say that these people have "noted" this is to suggest that it exists, and they have simply observed it. Many people would utterly disagree that "offensive imagery regarding the...Jewish people is no longer tolerated...". If you look at the New anti-semitism article, many people believe (though I don't really agree with them) that anti-Jewish imagery is alive and well in the European media. Secondly, it asserts that freedom of expression has been "curtailed" by the alleged decision not to run anti-Jewish imagery; thirdly it asserts that it "remains acceptable" to attack Islam in the European media. Where? Which corners? In The Guardian? In the Independent? In Le Monde? If these three arguments are to be presented, each of these points must be clearly set forth as the argument of a particular writer. As of now, the first one is "noted", and the second two follow as facts underlying what he noted. Babajobu 18:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've deleted the phrase "...because religions do not enjoy the same protections in Europe as homosexuals do. Indeed, a number of Muslim and Christian clerics have been jailed in Scandinavian countries for stating their religious belief that homosexuality is a sin. Attacking people on the basis of religion, on the other hand, is seen as "fair game" in Europe." This is unencyclopedic, barely verifiable, it violates npov and it reeks of original research. If edited, it might be usable, but in this wording it's not. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 18:57, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
- :What would be a better wording that actually mentions the hypocrisy?? It is absolutely verifiable that Muslim and Christian clerics are jailed in Scandinavia, if they dare suggest that homosexuality is a sin. But "hate speech" when directed against religion is protected as "free speech", and is not punished. This is seen as part of the hypocrisy. Help me edit out pov wording. Blockinblox 19:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'm doing some research now to find examples, here's one I've got so far: Ake Green
I am sorry but I cannot allow you to spread disinformation. Have you tried reading the article you are referring too? As a service I will quote it for you: “Åke Green (born 3 June 1941) is a Pentecostal Christian pastor who was sentenced to one month in prison under Sweden's law against hate speech. On February 11, 2005 an appeals court, Göta hovrätt, overturned the decision and acquitted Åke Green. On March 9, the Prosecutor-General appealed this decision to the Supreme Court, which on November 29 also acquitted him. In their opinion, while Åke Green had violated Swedish law as it currently stands, a conviction would most likely be overturned by the European Court of Human Rights, based on their previous rulings regarding Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights.” Now, I dont want to make any assumptions about the country you live in, but here in Scandinavia “acquitted” means that the courts clear you of all charges. That’s pretty bad research so far…20:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
- ::Okay, let's make a closer hypothetical paralell. Let's just say some right wing newspaper in Europe published some cartoons showing homosexuals in a rather bad light (similar to what Muslims are perceived.) - Use your imagination what kind of cartoons they might draw. What would happen to them?? Or are they free to do so?? Blockinblox 20:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I deleted this section because it was nothing but a POV written like an editorial, with no sources at all. ( Cloud02 19:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC))
I was shocked to see that Socialism has been counted as an extemist ideology alongside Nazism and "Islamism" (whatever that may be). Surely there are no grounds for this? If this label were replaced with Stalinism or Maxist-Leninism then the association would be fairer but I tend to think that these positions are so disparate that any association risks being cause for confusion. Socialism is a widely accepted and respected political philosophy that bears none of the negative connotations of the two other ideologies. To my knowledge, the label "socialist" commonly refers to individuals with moderate political views that do not call for the violent and lawless toppling of democratically elected governments (unlike islamists and nazis). This urgently needs to be rectified.
Why isn't there a section dedicated to racist attacks against muslims and muslim property in Denmark and Europe as a result of this episode? So far, the article seems only interested in acts of violence perpertrated by muslims.
Here is a loose translation of the short article from 'Politiken'.
"Although the Saturday demonstration on Raadhuspladen was peaceful, it was dented, when a couple of the demonstrators recognized the polemical Pakistani author and journalist Mohammad Rafiq. A couple of years ago, Mohammad Rafiq wrote a polemical book about arranged marriage, and has since been unpopular in the extreme Islamic environment. Today, while standing on the Raadhuspladens and photographing the demonstration, 3 second generation emigrants [a direct translation of this Danish’m] attacked him, breaking his mobile phone. The Pakistani author was taken to the ER and received stitches on one eye.
"I have tried to encourage a dialogue, and then I get clobbered [loosely translated] says Mohammad Rafiq, who in the today’s Politiken expresses concern that the network of moderate Muslims instigated by Naser Khader [a moderate Danish Muslim politician with Syrian background] will only increase the polarisation of the Muslims in Denmark, and therefore encourages reconsiliation." Mila 82.26.164.194 23:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The culturel gap is more like a interplanetary void. Its a drawing of a man, drawing Muhammad and fearing what (some) muslims will do to him. It seems like the newspaper does not understand it at all. And it isnt Bluitgen, its the guy who drew it. 192.38.4.198 21:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I think we're talking about the picture with the apple on the turban? That's Bluitgen alright. Azate 21:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
ohh Now I see it. Ups! Apupunchau 01:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Currently, JP is labelled "right wing". Before it was "centre right". JP (on its own page) calls itself »et af private, erhvervsmæssige, organisationsmæssige og partipolitiske interesser uafhængigt liberalt dagblad.« That is: »private, commercial, independent of political parties and other organisations, liberal daily newspaper.« Isn't "right wing" too judgemental? It reeks of fascism. I think "centre right" was fair. Azate 21:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The section still needs a bit of work... It would be nice if an Arabic speaking person would find the original quote for the article in Al-Hayat. Kjaergaard 21:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Links fixed. Kjaergaard 21:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
So far, I have not heard of any of the images being published by a major American newspaper, and the story is more or less being put on the back burner by the mainstream media, for bettor or worse. Yet, the first paragraph states that the images have been printed in the US. Does anyone have a source for this? I removed the US from the list of countries whose press had published the images yesterday, but specifically said that if someone can show that hey had indeed been printed to provide a souce and immediately revert my edit. I am unable to find a citation for this, and I have to wonder at the motives for placing the US in the list when that may not really be the case. AscendedAnathema 21:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
It has been published in the "Philadelphia Inquirer", the oldest Newspaper in the U.S.A. that is still alive. Search the article for "Philadelphia" and you will find the relevant link and more. In the Phil.Inq.'s article, the list several other news outlets in the US that have published some or all of the pictures, ABCNews among them, as far as I remember. Please re-insert the USA. Azate 21:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I thought this new policy was not supposed to apply to current events that require frequent updates and participation by many users. The July bombings in London, for example, benefited greatly from the lack of protection. It also hurts users of other European Wikipedias, like the Danish, who may want to edit English Wikipedia on this occasion. Tfine80 22:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I guess it's because sombody kept inserting huge penis-photos at the very top of the page every minute or so,until it was protected... Azate 22:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
It's unclear to me why this image is located at the top of the page of the article. Typically in Wikipedia, when people have objectede images that some may find offensive are further down the page, if they are on the page at all. For example the articles penis, breasts. It seems to me that a significant minority of people are quite genuine that they find these images offensive. Personally I don't get it, I can't see anything any more offensive here than in a children's comic - they are only satirical cartoons. However as there are those that are genuinely very offended, I don't understand why there would be opposition to at least moving the images further down the page. I realise that there was already a vote on this, however I think the vote was ended prematurely - and it would appear my last comments on this subject were archived within minutes of me making them! Nfitz 22:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Should we include the front cover of the book (Koranen og profeten Muhammeds liv)? Or perhaps one of the other images from it? Geni 22:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
That would certainly be a surrealistic confirmation of the cleverness of a couple of the cartoons ! (a nice degree of additional advertisement :-) Mila
and look at this rationally. The problem is that some people are getting worked up over the cartoons and others are getting worked up that the first group of people are getting worked up. I respectfully suggest that EVERYONE needs to calm down.
The showing of the cartoons is not unreasonable. BUT their position is. And NOT because I am saying it is offensive or anything of that nature. This article is currently titled "Jyllands-Posten Muhammed cartoons controversy". This article is NOT supposed to be about the cartoons, but the controversy surrounding the cartoons. Therefore the introductory picture to this article should be a picture of the resulting controversy. Such as some flag burning, or embassy burning or pictures of various marches or whatever. THAT is what the article is about, so THAT is what the introductory picture should be. But there is a problem that whenever someone tries to suggest moving it people cry "Freedom of Speech!" and think that ends all arguments. It DOES end SOME arguments about the presence of these cartoons in this article but it doesn't justify their presence at the top of this article, because as I pointed out this article is not about the cartoons themselves. If another article is created that IS about these cartoons then yes I would agree that the cartoons belong at the top of THAT article.-- Stenun 22:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC) (edit: sorry, forgot to add my sig)
Personally, I don't care if it's on top or middle as long as its in a relevant position and, you know, not deleted, if you can find a picture of protestors and put them up there while placing the cartoons down in the discription section, go for it, I won't stop you, but the problem is many people will, what your saying does seem like a good idea, but you'll have to tell that to people to get some consensus on it. Homestarmy 23:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
There is little in the cartoons themselves to suggest that the figure satirized is the prophet from the Koran. All that the caricatures share in common is the depiction of a bearded man in turban. Is there an iconographical tradition that I am missing which definitely narrows the subject down to the religious prophet? Even considering the context of the JP article ("Muhammeds ansigt"), who is there to say that the cartoons do not portray another Mohammed, perhaps one directly associated with terrorism, e.g., Mohammed Atta? It seems one interpretation of the cartoon is being tacitly assumed at the expense of all others. -- KCargill 22:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
"Die Welt has recently reported that the murder of a Catholic priest in Turkey is believed to be at the hands of protesters of the cartoons."
The above section I wrote after consulting welt.de, but it has been removed twice. I believe this is in good faith, but the user who has done it isn't able to reply so I will give anyone who can read german a chance to decide for hisself. Chooserr 23:00, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
risin' 23:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Reads: "Western counties typically"
Should be "Western countries typically..."
Also, many references should be attached to their text, such as
- Mardus 23:06, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Could anyone put a reference for that section? Even though there are references to pictures, there isn't any reference to the actual claim. Who claims it? Where is it claimed? etc.
I am copying conversation with one anonymous Muslim person from Serbian Wikipedia. -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
In other words, if someone wants to talk about this issue on Serbian Wikipedia, (s)he should not worry about seeing the picture inside of the first part of the article. I suggest that English Wikipedia (as well as other Wikipedias which have the picture) should do at least the same which we did (I mean moving the comincs down, on the second page in the resolution 1280x1024; the text is big enough to do that.). -- millosh ( talk (sr:)) 23:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
We got that same guy here I think, (the raping things of Islam is the tip off) he might of spammed many of our userpages, but I think I gave him quite an admirable reply personally. If the Serbian Wiki wants it down the page, then by all means, they should have it down the page. But you've got to admit, the English Wiki is not the same community as the Serbian wiki, as, well, most of us probably are not living in or near serbia. Homestarmy 23:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I unfortunately realized that, Poll 3 is killed. I think some people among the admins here has some fear of democracy and freedom of speech, while they are talking about 'freedom of speech'. I do not know Danmark, haven't been there, but I can certainly say that, there is no freedom of speech -even in a discussion page- and democracy in our very Wikipedia based on my experiences. I am saddened and very dissapointed for it.
I believe that Wiki community will stop these subjective actions and support the democracy and freedom of speech which we all for them, at home. Resid Gulerdem 23:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Please, if at any point anyone wants to set up a new poll here, do not do so till a reasonable degree of concensus has been reached about the options and format of the poll. Otherwise, drawing conclusions from the poll will be difficult, and people will not feel bound by the conclusions. As for poll 3, here is why it was inappropriate at this point: A clear majority voted "Keep" in poll 1, and it is evident that most did it because they believe people should be enabled to see the object of this controversy, and perhaps form their own opinion of it. Showing only those drawings that were not the object of the controversy would not really satisfy that need; it would be a bit like just showing the logo of Jyllandsposten. Of course, a couple of the drawings are (quite amusing) comments on the whole affair, rather than actually drwaings of the prophet. They might well serve as illustrations near the top of the article, even if the rest of the drawings had been voted out or hidden somewhere else. But the vote from polls 1 and 2 was to keep articles at top, and therefore, the result of poll 3 was given from the start - unless a significantly different voter population could be mustered.-- Niels Ø 02:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Please also add this link of how muslims have been Cartooning Jews for many years, and nobody ever got outraged:
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm
Ehhh, that seems really POV and beyond the scope of this article, besides, I think we've debated that already. Homestarmy 02:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there an equivalent to Rot13 for images? In that way, those that wish to view controversial/offensive images can. Those that don't, won't. This method has been used by Usenet for decades. -- Rwcitek 01:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Rexnl twice removed my insertion of the audio pronunciation of Jyllands-Posten. He says it is distracting.
Most readers are English speakers and will be clueless trying to pronounce that newspaper, which is a principle party in this matter. If the link is removed, readers can still click to find out more, but 99%+ of readers will pass by because there is too much to read to go looking at derivative articles. Arguments against are weak. How is linking once in the intro "distracting"? No harm and its helpful. To avoid a dumb revert war, a couple of ppl agree with me please. Lotsofissues 01:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I sooo totally agree with you. Apupunchau 01:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you too. Remember, if he reverts it four times he could be blocked for 24 hours. -
Maverick 01:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
After further looking at it, I do believe that he is acting in good faith. I'm gonna stay outta this one, as I don't really have an opinion on it anymore - Maverick 01:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Just use IPA. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 04:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Just wanted to say that this is probably the most informative, complete and balanced article I have found on the subject. My compliments and thanks to all those that have contributed.
Gilraen
When you read it from an outside POV, it is really quite well done! Everyone here who has been contributing should be quite proud of what has been accomplished, in the midst of all the uproar!!! Nfitz 02:57, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I want to add my compliments too. This is without a doubt the most comprehensive source of non biased information. It is only because of everyone's hard work here. Congratulations and thank you. A special thanks to those who have tried to add calm when emotions started to take over -- Mmmsnouts 03:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
[la:Jyllands-Posten_ob_illustrationes_Mochameti_%28Muhammedi%29_controversia]
-
Mardus 02:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Added this under the Rumours and Misconceptions section, but it was edited away:
Public burnings of the Qur'an - Saturday the 4th of February it was rumoured that neo-nazi groups in Denmark would gather in public plazas and burn copies of the Qur'an, which is considered sacrilege. Although several disjunct demonstrations took place, encouraging tolerance, respect for freedom of speech, anti-racism, there have been no reports on any burnings of the Qur'an. Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Møller declared on international TV that "No Qur'ans have been burned and the police have been instructed to prevent any occasions of the Qur'an being burned."
I don't have a source, but I know for a fact that it is true. Even though there is no citation I still think it is an important enough controversy to mention, as there are people thinking that books were burned with government consensus.
Please refresh yourself with WP:V. We can't take it on your word; you must provide citations. Which you have admitted that you cannot. -- Cyde Weys 03:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
As fast as this page goes, I'm not sure if this has been linked, but it gives a good history of images of muhammad. [16] Arkon 03:08, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
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