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Almost all the text in the article is about the controversy over the cartoons, not about the cartoons themselves. The current title reflects that. But some people (e.g. Sol v. Orange) claim that changing the title from "Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons" was a "salami slicing" tactic to change the article's former topic, rather than to more accurately reflect what the topic really was. Obviously there is not consistent agreement on this question.
Proposal: Revert the title change, so the title is again "Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons", and split off the part of the article that's about the controversy. The "cartoon" article's content should be the detailed description of the cartoons (taken from the current article and maybe expanded), a nice big picture of the cartoons if the article's editors desire that, and a very brief description of the controversy, with a link to the separate "controversy" article. The "controversy" article would contain the stuff from the current article that's purely about the controversy, with a brief description of the cartoons (no picture of them), plus a link to the "cartoons" article, described as "article describing the cartoons, including a large picture".
The front page link would be to the "controversy" article since that's what its current text refers to. Yes, that would have the effect of getting the cartoon off of a direct front page link. But it's obvious that the front page link is there because of the controversy and refers to it. Phr 23:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Why should the images be used at all? Most major newspapers are not printing them, why should we? CNN says "CNN has chosen to not show the cartoons in respect for Islam." [1]. I dont see pictures of the cartoons at the BBC article or the New York Times article -- Astrokey44| talk 00:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Can somebody please mention about the Church bombings in Iraq that was rumered to be related to the drawings? Chaldean 22:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
How about something like this: Middle East Christians Percicuted
On January 29, 2006, six churches in the Iraqi cities of Baghdad and Kirkuk were targeted by car bombs, killing 13-year old worshipper Fadi Raad Elias. [5] No militants claimed to be retaliating for the pictures, but many Assyrians in Iraq claim "Westerners should not give wild statements [as] everyone can attack us [in response]" [6]. Also on January 29, a Muslim Cleric in the Iraqi city of Mosul issued a fatwa stating "expel the Crusaders and infidels from the streets, schools, and institutions because they offended the person of the prophet in Denmark." [7]In reply to the fatwa on the same day, Muslim Students beat up Christian student in Mosul University. [8] On Febuary 2, 2006, Palestinians in the West Bank handed out a leaflet signed by a Fatah militant group and Islamic Jihad stating "Churches in Gaza could come under attack". [9]
So is this fair?
Chaldean 01:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the section On January 29 six churches in the Iraqi cities of Baghdad and Kirkuk were targeted by car bombs, killing 13-year-old worshipper Fadi Raad Elias. An announcement by the Dutch religious rights group Open Door </ref> No militants claimed to be retaliating for the pictures, nor is this the first time Iraqi churches have been bombed; but many Assyrians in Iraq claim "Westerners should not give wild statements [as] everyone can attack us [in response]" Militants tend to be quite open about their motives, so if none of them listed this as a motive, then it's likely "just another Church bombing" Sherurcij ( talk) ( Terrorist Wikiproject) 20:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the juxtaposition of these two sentences in the second paragraph of the intro:
"Although Jyllands-Posten maintains that the drawings were an exercise in free speech, many Muslims in Denmark and elsewhere view them as provocative and Islamophobic. Two newspaper cartoonists have reportedly gone into hiding after receiving death threats, and the newspaper has enhanced its security precautions. [1] "
Presumably most of those who "view [the cartooons] as provocative and Islamophobic" do not advocate the issuance of death threats as an appropriate response or consider it "Islamophobic" to react fearfully when one receives a death threat.-- FRS 00:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Just to throw one more reason in why "the image" should continue to be included in the article, take a look at the feature article Blackface. This portrayal is considered highly offensive to many African-Americans, yet numerous examples are shown in the article. As with most things in life, it is the context as much as the content that determins if something is suitable for display or not. -- StuffOfInterest 01:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The best example I can find on Wikipedia that relates to the image controversy here is this simple image: Image:YHWH.png. It's the vowelized form of the tetragrammaton, forbidden to be written in the Jewish religion and potentially highly offensive. And yet we haven't removed it. — Cuiviénen ( Cuivië) 03:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I've just heard a BBC radio report (on Australian ABC radio) stating that the BBC has shown the images briefly on British TV news. Can anyone confirm this? If it's true it should be added. -- Tatty 01:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know they haven't. The Beeb still still stands firm as the paladin of political correctness (only when Muslims are concerned, curiously enough). Lenineleal 01:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually, this is highly relevant to keeping the image on the article. Watching the BBC and Channel 4 news, they did show the images, briefly, being shown and spoken about by a very angry muslim. However, the only pictures they showed were the bomb one and the Muhammed-with-knife one. Thus, if I hadn't seen the pictures on the wikipedia article, I would be under the impression that they were all like this. Skittle 11:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
ABC News in the US showed several of the images yesterday evening as well. -- StuffOfInterest 11:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
There was also a large protest outside Television Centre last night because of the 6 O Clock news showing the images.
Logan1138 17:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I have created a mirror at Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy (no images), which will also need to be maintained, with the offensive image removed. Now, can we move the image down below the break on the page? Problem solved. -- GeLuxe 03:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Please see AfD on Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse (no pictures) -- Descendall 08:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
what if some newspaper printed a cartoon depicting Elizabeth II having sex with the Spanish King? with Voltaire? with Goethe? with Anderson? with Jesus? with Maria? will the editor be fired? will people hit the street to protest? My god are Eueopeans really full of themselves that they forgot how to respect other people? Do you say "you're a bitch" to your neighbours? You don't, even though you won't get arrested for it. It's called respect. The whole world knows freedom of speech in Europe is top notch. You don't have to prove this by insulting the Muslims. The Islam world is dangerously overreacting, but that doesn't justify your offence. Just out of curiosity, how arrogant can you be? -- wooddoo [[User_talk:Wooddoo-eng|Eppur si muove]] 06:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
=That would be a funny cartoon! Valtam 07:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
And then the pictures should be posted on Wikipedia.... Just to get the picture right, which Anderson are we talking about...? Kjaergaard 07:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Muslim have valid case against some European countries. If race hate speech is banned why not ban faith hate speech. This is a valid issue to raise in this page. Wikipedia on the other hand is not Europe. So take the complaint elsewhere. FWBOarticle
Hmmm, the Queen and jesus - I doubt it would go down well in certain circles, but if it didn't contravene the law in the country it's hosted, then we'd just be told to "suck it up, princess." People need to lighten up. Imho, any belief system that makes you so furious that you turn to violence (over a cartoon) should not be pandered to. It's no arrogance to suggest we don't bend under pressure, it's simply retaining the way we do things. If someone of any race, religion or culture, even a nth generation Dane, doesn't like the way we do things in Europe, they're free to go somewhere more compatible with their ideology. Also, if someone is so mentally and emotionally fragile as to riot over a cartoon, they should avoid the internet, it's full of upsetting imagery. Cal 17:52, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, i can honestly admit that i am no muslim scholar... I tried to read the book once and gave up as it was too hard. My question is twofold. Isn't the point of not showing pictures of the prophet about stoppind the spread of idolatry? If so, how do cartoons mocking the prophet contribute to idolatry? Love that WookMuff
Pictorial representation of animal including human is banned because inaccurate represenation of god's creation is offense to god. (Undoctored) Photo is controvercial because it is accurate. Most say it is o.k. but some say it is not. However, if say, photo is used for reverential purpose, such as a teenager having poster of "Nsync" in her foom, then the usage of photo is to divert the reverence of god to something else, so it is wrong. My mate (a muslim) got his poster of Imran Khan ripped by his dad. On top of all this, the disrespect to the messenger of God is also considered as blasphamous which many scholar say deserve death penalty. This is a separate charge. Then implying that he is a terrorist is offense to islam. Basically the photo is wrong in soooo many ways if you are muslim. oh, I'm not a muslim so I appreciate if someone correct whatever mistake I have made.
FWBOarticle
for the newspaper case not this article case , the picture was seen as insulting, there is nothing relates it to idolatry !!!! as a muslim i see the picture very insulting , i respect their right in expressing their idea , but in the same time freedom doesn't equal insulting people icons, please note I'm speaking about the newspaper issue not this article issue. Waleeed 07:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This Sign is fake ... I have no idea about this comment --
Unfinishedchaos 21:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
And I don't want to see ambiguous verses either.-- Greasysteve13 08:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Showing Muhammad's face is forbidden in Islam, this way the original placement of the cartoon could be shown without showing the prophets face (similar to how some Islamic paintings [11] [12] show him with a veil) or a film about Muhammad does not show him at all. How about something like this as a compromise? -- Astrokey44| talk 08:12, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think you all miss the point here. Of course, the original picture does not show "the face of the prophet". Muslims know it is not the face of the prophet. It is a cartoon! Therefore, it doesnt matter if it is blocked or not. The real problem to angry Muslims is that some people say it is the prophet, and then mock him this way - face or no face. Blocking the face doesnt make it less mockery! (maybe it is even worse... imagine, a hypocrit saying he 'respects' Islam by blocking a face only so he can push through the mockery of Islam) So, please leave the original picture the way it was. Stop putting black blocks on some pencil strokes. -- ActiveSelective 08:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm muslim and i find that whole idea about hiding the pics or the face of persons in pics silly ..simply because these pics doesn,t represent prophet muhammad ... I find the question of some muslims to hide the pics silly ..cause they r not pics of muhammad in any way and noone can know the shape of muhammad or pridect it ... so keep the pics as it is .
I think these these Pics is silly and full of Hate and Racism , for this reason and cause this article is talking about these Pics I think the Pics should be at the top not the Bottom . instead of that it should be explained the real viewpoint of Muslims about these pics and why they consider them racist and islamophobic --
Unfinishedchaos 11:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
In one of those long-delayed flashes of blinding obviousness, it only now occurs to me that the page is under an NPOV dispute of the highest order. I'm baffled that nobody has put up an NPOV tag already (at least I haven't seen one). I might put one up in a little while, unless somebody beats me to it. It really needs one. 71.141.251.153 08:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear muslims. I am not a muslim myself (actually I am a non-religious Dane), but I would like to know what muslims think of the following analysis. Of course I realise that views among muslims will differ.
I think the offence caused by the Muhammed drawings works at several levels:
I have these comments myself:
Ad 1., fundamentalists of all kinds may believe that everyone must obey the codex in their particular creed, but the rest of us (and I believe that includes by far most muslims) respect that other people live by other rules. For instance, I do not need to apologise for my eating pork, do I? So, yes, I understand that it is to some extent offensive to many, but in an open democratic world, we all have to accept such offences now and then. E.g., it offends me enormously when someone burn the Danish flag.
I wonder, do muslims who feel offended when told about these drawings, feel more so when they see the actual drawings from Jyllandsposten? Do muslims break any rules by, perhaps inadvertently, seeing the drawings?
Ad 2. and 3., the bomb-in-turban picture could be interpreted as the statement "Muhammad stands behind terror", which, although I suppose Osama bin Laden would happily agree, is an offence to many muslims. An alternative interpretation like "Terror is attributed to Muhammad" (which of course is true) is invalidated by the fact that the artist was commisioned to draw Muhammad, not to draw terror. - The anonymous pig-face picture was published by a Danish islamic organization, not by Jyllandsposten, so it is not relevant here.
For once I agree with the Danish prime minister, though I would like to state it more clearly than he does: Some of these drawings are stupid, but it is not up to the Danish government to decide whether they are blasphemous to a punishable degree; we have a legal system to deal with that. The drawings were published in Denmark, where an artist in 1984 painted a mural at a railway station depicting a nude Jesus with an erect penis. The painting was soon painted over (to the acclaim of Jyllandsposten), but he was not punished. So, it is not only when at the expense of other creeds or cultures that freedom of speach in Denmark is given more weight than respect for other's feelings.
Ad 4., I think it was a mistake when the prime minister refused to meet 11 diplomats from islamic countries 4 months ago, though I understand his reasons. They explicitly asked for the meeting to request that he punished Jyllandsposten, but the prime minister cannot punish anyone. I think he should have refused to meet them with that agenda, but at the same time invited them to a meeting with a different agenda, and I also think he back then should have expressed his dislike of some of the drawings publicly.
-- Niels Ø 09:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Niels (/), how is this proclamation of yours of editorial use to the wiki-article? I dont see how. And I dont see why you publish it here. -- ActiveSelective 09:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am really trying to figure out what to think about the appearance of the drawings in the article. I honestly think they should appear prominently, and I try to understand the reasons why that is so strongly opposed by some. So my views may not interest you, but the comments (esp. from muslims) may interest me, and perhaps others too. My naive hope is that a clearer analysis of the offence may enable us to approach consensus.-- Niels Ø 09:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think I should clarify just how offensive this image is to many Muslims; perhaps the best comparison would be if someone were to wrap a Torah in bacon to prove a point about Judaism.
As if that wasn't enough, the image of Muhammad as a terrorist, wearing a turban that appears to show the Shahadah ("there is no God but God, and Muhammad is His prophet") adds insult to injury. By displaying this image at the top of the article, we risk unneccessarily offending many observant Muslims who have come here to read about the controversy.
At the same time, I also believe both that the image is relevant to the article, and that Wikipedia should avoid self-censorship (I have, for example, consistently taken this position in articles containing anatomical images). In my opinion, the best way to resolve these conflicting goals is to move the image to the end of the article and to add a warning of the form:
This was the solution reached in the similar Baha'i controversy, and seems to me to work very well.
Several of the comments insisting the image stay at the top of the article seem to have a distinct anti-Islamic slant, something I find quite offensive; we should try to respect other people's sensibilities as far as possible, even if we don't agree with them. -- The Anome 10:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
So for instance, the
New York Times coverage of the story is deficient, in your view, because it doesn't even include the cartoon images? Never mind big or small, prominent or not prominent -- they chose not to piss people off. String 'em up from a lamppost in Times Square, I suppose?
BYT 12:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
What I asked about, though, was whether we could cover a provocation without ourselves being provocative. So far as I can make it out, your answer is "No," right?
BYT 12:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Well -- the "facts" here include the obvious one that other media outlets have chosen to take a different path than we have taken here...
Not unlike the way WP itself has chosen not to include a still from "Debbie Does Dallas" at Pornography. I assume we don't have such an image, and I'm not bothering to check. But I'm going to make that assumption based on the principle that a "collaboarative aesthetic" or "collaborative ethic" (for lack of a better word) would predictably preclude such an editorial decision. You just kind of know that a WP article that smart people put a whole bunch of work into is going to move toward the center.
Now here's my point. In other articles, like the Baha'ullah thing and the Oral sex article, we have in fact worked out ways to address the sensibilities of readers who are likely to be gravely offended by certain images. Here, in a much more serious case, we are unwilling to do so.
And the reason we are unwilling to do so is that ... ? (I honestly don't know. I'd like to hear your thoughts, though.)
Added sign. -- Striver 11:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
For a start: The article would be neutral if it didn't set out to insult Muslims and inflame an already potent dispute by waving this red flag in front of them. The article does in fact wave this red flag. It is therefore not neutral. BYT 12:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Sure you can. This is the perfect example. Certain extremists feel this image should be as widely distributed as possible BECAUSE it inflames Muslim sentiment and "teaches them a lesson" of some kind. That's a (political) point of view. As of this moment, WP is catering to that sentiment by featuring the image prominently. BYT 12:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the article misses the understanding of muslims' viewpoint wich i work on it --
Unfinishedchaos 12:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Which enemy is that, Kyaa? BYT 12:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
If people say the image should be available to the public, why not a link? Why post the image at top while risking that Wikipedia can get involved with this whole situation? Just because not a lot of Muslims are active on Wikipedia doesn't mean we can make it worse. 83.160.142.158 13:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
what about picking one of the self-ironic cartoons to show at the top, large? Either the "Mohammed Valloyskele" one where a kid named Muhammad is saying "Jyllands-Posten's journalists are a bunch of reactionary provocateurs", or else the one where the Islamists come running with scimitars and bombs (an anticipation of the controversy really) but their leader is saying "relax folks" (if only!). Both of these are not actually showing a caricature of Mumammad, but ironically refer to Jyllands-Posten's PR stunt itself. dab (ᛏ) 12:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
vote++ MX44
It will also make the point that while everybody seems to assume these are a bunch of racist or islamophobe cartoons (the protesters appartently did not bother to look at them closely), more than half of them are not actually about stereotype views of Muhammad, but about the cartoonists' dilemma. All the more reason to make people look at the cartoons first and discuss later. If fair use permits, Wikipedia should show and discuss the cartoons one by one. Even the "bomb turban" need not be islamophobe, but a political statement about the abuse of Islam for the purposes of extremists. I must say that images like this (not to mention [13] [14]) are far more offensive, being a reflection of atavistic primate hatred untempered by satire or self-irony. dab (ᛏ) 12:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC) dab (ᛏ) 12:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
ActiveSelective 13:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
(ᛏ) 13:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
So how come we don't see a picture of child pornography when we click on Child pornography? BYT 13:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Is the
New York Times part of the problem, too? They chose not even to use these images. Was their editorial decision somehow inimical to the job of covering the story?
BYT 13:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
In this case, it is failing in that objective. BYT 13:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
ok; so how about we describe the eleven cartoons, in words? dab (ᛏ) 21:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I have removed, and will continue to do so if necessary, three sentences User:Dogface has added to the Other controversial newspaper caricatures section. They are: "No Jewish groups fired upon a British consulate building over this matter", "No Jewish groups fired upon a French consulate building over this matter" and "No Jewish groups fired upon a German consulate building over this matter." I believe these sentences are unnecessary point-making and contrasting (an irrelevant we-they-like contrast). This article should not point at the current response to the cartoons and say "look at what they are doing, look how bad they are, and then see how group suchandsuch responded." I believe that my removal of Dogface's comments is similar to User:TheKMan's removal of the sentences "there were no mass riots, and gunmen did not fire upon a consulate over the matter" and "but nobody fired upon an embassy or consulate building over the matter." These are personal opinions that might belong on a blog, but not in an encyclopedia. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 13:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to state what some points of view I have heard in the media but not seen in the article. (Note No personal connection to this, just stating what I have heard in the media). — This user has left wikipedia 13:56 2006-02-03
It was a very useful tool for those trying to get an overview of how this occurred and developed. Now it's gone an in place we have a lot of tangental and, frankly, weird "similar incidents." Some nutbar shooting Larry Flynt because of an interracial picture in Hustler thirty years ago has little to nothing to do with this, and the timeline was actually useful.
Whahoppen? MattShepherd 14:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
the timeline was moved, due to the length of the article. Timeline of the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy AlEX 14:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
According to Brussels Journal, Hezbollah has said that it will conduct suicide attacks in Denmark and Norway in retaliation for publication of the cartoons. They say that the announcement is cited in this article in Jyllands-Posten. Anyone read Danish? [16]. Babajobu 14:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
That wasn't a threat, Brandon was saying he's leaving Wikipedia. Check his userpage: User talk:BrandonYusufToropov. Babajobu 14:52, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes I do, but unfortunately I am not god in writhing English. But it is right as you say. I can translate the beginning:
"Hezbollah is threatening with suicide attacks in Denmark and Norway… The Hezbollah - movement indicate/give a hint of/suggested* that the cries bye the cartons may led to suicide attacks I Denmark and Norway"
I can quote this Norwegian article http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article1213079.ece "- Vi har vært i kontakt med myndighetene i Libanon i kveld. Statsministeren i landet, og Hezbollah selv, avkrefter på det sterkeste at de har fremsatt trusler mot Norge, sier stats- sekretær Raymond til VG Nett."
"We have been in contact with the authorities in Lebanon to night. The prime minister and the Hezbollah it self, denies that there have been any threats towards Norway, says Parliamentary Secretary Raymond to VG news" For Aftenposten is very good newspaper I Norway, also some articles in English http://www.aftenposten.no/english/world/article1212624.ece
Surely suicide bombing is more offensive than these cartoons. User:slamdac
Surveying and writing about these discussion pages would make for an excellent angle on the nuances and themes of the controversy. I'm talking to the reporters reading this. Lotsofissues 15:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
What's the proper thing to call it?( Cloud02 15:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC))
Does anyone remember that episode in South Park about the Super Best Friends? I remember distinctly they drew Mohammud and even showed him moving around and using the power of fire. In fact there is even a wikipedia article about it and I think he's even in the picture! Someone explain to me why there wasn't an enormous uproar over this? I think this is a pic of him standing next to Jesus! http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/504/superbestfriends.gif Hitokirishinji 17:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)</ref>
Hey guys ... u discovered many things alone ... actually no one will kill somebody only cause he draw a pic and he say that is muhammad ... it happen manytimes here in middle east that ppl say blasphemy in streets and between each other , but such things are not considered respectful behaviour , shiite says about some pics that they illustrate muhammad or ali , in spite there are no assertion at all about that ... but in this time the feeling of insulting and the explosive position in this area , the anger from goverments and usa politics ... all of that find a way to be expressed by this way of protesting --
Unfinishedchaos 19:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The BBC's dilemma: http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_4670000/newsid_4678100/4678186.stm (quite relevant) Thparkth 18:02, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Let's keep this Wikipedia article encyclopedic instead of making it a debate. The article describes the controversy around the pictures and therefore, should show the pictures in order for the readers to understand what it's about and make up their own mind and form an informed opinion of their own. This is supposed to be an NPOV encyclopedia and not a debate forum so please, let not religious dogma dictate us (i.e. Wikipedia contributors) to consor ourselves (i.e. our encyclopedia). ( Entheta 18:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)) And besides, it's up to everyone whether they want to click that thumbnail or not to see the larger version of the picture. It's not like the little thumbnail version can really offend anyone who doesn't really want to - and have decided in advance to - get offended. ( Entheta 19:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC))
...a lot of you hopped-up race-baiting right-wing caricatures are seriously tempting me to change my vote to "delete" just to spite you. My god, people, step outside your heads for a second. Comments like "what are you going to do, bomb Wikipedia?" just make you sound like... well, hopped-up race-baiting right-wing caricatures. As stated.
You harm your cause more than you help it with braggadocio and chest-thumping jackassery.
There are serious, academic, intelligent reasons to keep the image, which I support. But my support forces me to stand next to some very shameful human beings. MattShepherd 19:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Aside from the fact that I am not happy with having an inline link to an unabashedly anti-Islam website, the link used makes no clear distinction between the pictures that were published in the JP and unrelated art, and appears to segue into photographs of bloody street scenes.
Also, as much trouble as we seem to be having in translating the Danish text, I do not think it is a good idea to inline link to doctored images with an English translation added. Guppy313 19:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
the low resolution .jpg images was replaced by GraphicArtist to a high resolution .png image [18] in violation with copyright restrictions KimvdLinde 19:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
...to Wiki namespace: Wikipedia:Recentism. This page is a joke and its unfortunate otherwise earnest contributors are wasting time on it. Marskell 20:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Almost all the text in the article is about the controversy over the cartoons, not about the cartoons themselves. The current title reflects that. But some people (e.g. Sol v. Orange) claim that changing the title from "Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons" was a "salami slicing" tactic to change the article's former topic, rather than to more accurately reflect what the topic really was. Obviously there is not consistent agreement on this question.
Proposal: Revert the title change, so the title is again "Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons", and split off the part of the article that's about the controversy. The "cartoon" article's content should be the detailed description of the cartoons (taken from the current article and maybe expanded), a nice big picture of the cartoons if the article's editors desire that, and a very brief description of the controversy, with a link to the separate "controversy" article. The "controversy" article would contain the stuff from the current article that's purely about the controversy, with a brief description of the cartoons (no picture of them), plus a link to the "cartoons" article, described as "article describing the cartoons, including a large picture".
The front page link would be to the "controversy" article since that's what its current text refers to. Yes, that would have the effect of getting the cartoon off of a direct front page link. But it's obvious that the front page link is there because of the controversy and refers to it. Phr 23:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Why should the images be used at all? Most major newspapers are not printing them, why should we? CNN says "CNN has chosen to not show the cartoons in respect for Islam." [1]. I dont see pictures of the cartoons at the BBC article or the New York Times article -- Astrokey44| talk 00:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Can somebody please mention about the Church bombings in Iraq that was rumered to be related to the drawings? Chaldean 22:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
How about something like this: Middle East Christians Percicuted
On January 29, 2006, six churches in the Iraqi cities of Baghdad and Kirkuk were targeted by car bombs, killing 13-year old worshipper Fadi Raad Elias. [5] No militants claimed to be retaliating for the pictures, but many Assyrians in Iraq claim "Westerners should not give wild statements [as] everyone can attack us [in response]" [6]. Also on January 29, a Muslim Cleric in the Iraqi city of Mosul issued a fatwa stating "expel the Crusaders and infidels from the streets, schools, and institutions because they offended the person of the prophet in Denmark." [7]In reply to the fatwa on the same day, Muslim Students beat up Christian student in Mosul University. [8] On Febuary 2, 2006, Palestinians in the West Bank handed out a leaflet signed by a Fatah militant group and Islamic Jihad stating "Churches in Gaza could come under attack". [9]
So is this fair?
Chaldean 01:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the section On January 29 six churches in the Iraqi cities of Baghdad and Kirkuk were targeted by car bombs, killing 13-year-old worshipper Fadi Raad Elias. An announcement by the Dutch religious rights group Open Door </ref> No militants claimed to be retaliating for the pictures, nor is this the first time Iraqi churches have been bombed; but many Assyrians in Iraq claim "Westerners should not give wild statements [as] everyone can attack us [in response]" Militants tend to be quite open about their motives, so if none of them listed this as a motive, then it's likely "just another Church bombing" Sherurcij ( talk) ( Terrorist Wikiproject) 20:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the juxtaposition of these two sentences in the second paragraph of the intro:
"Although Jyllands-Posten maintains that the drawings were an exercise in free speech, many Muslims in Denmark and elsewhere view them as provocative and Islamophobic. Two newspaper cartoonists have reportedly gone into hiding after receiving death threats, and the newspaper has enhanced its security precautions. [1] "
Presumably most of those who "view [the cartooons] as provocative and Islamophobic" do not advocate the issuance of death threats as an appropriate response or consider it "Islamophobic" to react fearfully when one receives a death threat.-- FRS 00:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Just to throw one more reason in why "the image" should continue to be included in the article, take a look at the feature article Blackface. This portrayal is considered highly offensive to many African-Americans, yet numerous examples are shown in the article. As with most things in life, it is the context as much as the content that determins if something is suitable for display or not. -- StuffOfInterest 01:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The best example I can find on Wikipedia that relates to the image controversy here is this simple image: Image:YHWH.png. It's the vowelized form of the tetragrammaton, forbidden to be written in the Jewish religion and potentially highly offensive. And yet we haven't removed it. — Cuiviénen ( Cuivië) 03:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I've just heard a BBC radio report (on Australian ABC radio) stating that the BBC has shown the images briefly on British TV news. Can anyone confirm this? If it's true it should be added. -- Tatty 01:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know they haven't. The Beeb still still stands firm as the paladin of political correctness (only when Muslims are concerned, curiously enough). Lenineleal 01:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually, this is highly relevant to keeping the image on the article. Watching the BBC and Channel 4 news, they did show the images, briefly, being shown and spoken about by a very angry muslim. However, the only pictures they showed were the bomb one and the Muhammed-with-knife one. Thus, if I hadn't seen the pictures on the wikipedia article, I would be under the impression that they were all like this. Skittle 11:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
ABC News in the US showed several of the images yesterday evening as well. -- StuffOfInterest 11:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
There was also a large protest outside Television Centre last night because of the 6 O Clock news showing the images.
Logan1138 17:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I have created a mirror at Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy (no images), which will also need to be maintained, with the offensive image removed. Now, can we move the image down below the break on the page? Problem solved. -- GeLuxe 03:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Please see AfD on Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse (no pictures) -- Descendall 08:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
what if some newspaper printed a cartoon depicting Elizabeth II having sex with the Spanish King? with Voltaire? with Goethe? with Anderson? with Jesus? with Maria? will the editor be fired? will people hit the street to protest? My god are Eueopeans really full of themselves that they forgot how to respect other people? Do you say "you're a bitch" to your neighbours? You don't, even though you won't get arrested for it. It's called respect. The whole world knows freedom of speech in Europe is top notch. You don't have to prove this by insulting the Muslims. The Islam world is dangerously overreacting, but that doesn't justify your offence. Just out of curiosity, how arrogant can you be? -- wooddoo [[User_talk:Wooddoo-eng|Eppur si muove]] 06:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
=That would be a funny cartoon! Valtam 07:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
And then the pictures should be posted on Wikipedia.... Just to get the picture right, which Anderson are we talking about...? Kjaergaard 07:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Muslim have valid case against some European countries. If race hate speech is banned why not ban faith hate speech. This is a valid issue to raise in this page. Wikipedia on the other hand is not Europe. So take the complaint elsewhere. FWBOarticle
Hmmm, the Queen and jesus - I doubt it would go down well in certain circles, but if it didn't contravene the law in the country it's hosted, then we'd just be told to "suck it up, princess." People need to lighten up. Imho, any belief system that makes you so furious that you turn to violence (over a cartoon) should not be pandered to. It's no arrogance to suggest we don't bend under pressure, it's simply retaining the way we do things. If someone of any race, religion or culture, even a nth generation Dane, doesn't like the way we do things in Europe, they're free to go somewhere more compatible with their ideology. Also, if someone is so mentally and emotionally fragile as to riot over a cartoon, they should avoid the internet, it's full of upsetting imagery. Cal 17:52, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, i can honestly admit that i am no muslim scholar... I tried to read the book once and gave up as it was too hard. My question is twofold. Isn't the point of not showing pictures of the prophet about stoppind the spread of idolatry? If so, how do cartoons mocking the prophet contribute to idolatry? Love that WookMuff
Pictorial representation of animal including human is banned because inaccurate represenation of god's creation is offense to god. (Undoctored) Photo is controvercial because it is accurate. Most say it is o.k. but some say it is not. However, if say, photo is used for reverential purpose, such as a teenager having poster of "Nsync" in her foom, then the usage of photo is to divert the reverence of god to something else, so it is wrong. My mate (a muslim) got his poster of Imran Khan ripped by his dad. On top of all this, the disrespect to the messenger of God is also considered as blasphamous which many scholar say deserve death penalty. This is a separate charge. Then implying that he is a terrorist is offense to islam. Basically the photo is wrong in soooo many ways if you are muslim. oh, I'm not a muslim so I appreciate if someone correct whatever mistake I have made.
FWBOarticle
for the newspaper case not this article case , the picture was seen as insulting, there is nothing relates it to idolatry !!!! as a muslim i see the picture very insulting , i respect their right in expressing their idea , but in the same time freedom doesn't equal insulting people icons, please note I'm speaking about the newspaper issue not this article issue. Waleeed 07:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This Sign is fake ... I have no idea about this comment --
Unfinishedchaos 21:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
And I don't want to see ambiguous verses either.-- Greasysteve13 08:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Showing Muhammad's face is forbidden in Islam, this way the original placement of the cartoon could be shown without showing the prophets face (similar to how some Islamic paintings [11] [12] show him with a veil) or a film about Muhammad does not show him at all. How about something like this as a compromise? -- Astrokey44| talk 08:12, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think you all miss the point here. Of course, the original picture does not show "the face of the prophet". Muslims know it is not the face of the prophet. It is a cartoon! Therefore, it doesnt matter if it is blocked or not. The real problem to angry Muslims is that some people say it is the prophet, and then mock him this way - face or no face. Blocking the face doesnt make it less mockery! (maybe it is even worse... imagine, a hypocrit saying he 'respects' Islam by blocking a face only so he can push through the mockery of Islam) So, please leave the original picture the way it was. Stop putting black blocks on some pencil strokes. -- ActiveSelective 08:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm muslim and i find that whole idea about hiding the pics or the face of persons in pics silly ..simply because these pics doesn,t represent prophet muhammad ... I find the question of some muslims to hide the pics silly ..cause they r not pics of muhammad in any way and noone can know the shape of muhammad or pridect it ... so keep the pics as it is .
I think these these Pics is silly and full of Hate and Racism , for this reason and cause this article is talking about these Pics I think the Pics should be at the top not the Bottom . instead of that it should be explained the real viewpoint of Muslims about these pics and why they consider them racist and islamophobic --
Unfinishedchaos 11:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
In one of those long-delayed flashes of blinding obviousness, it only now occurs to me that the page is under an NPOV dispute of the highest order. I'm baffled that nobody has put up an NPOV tag already (at least I haven't seen one). I might put one up in a little while, unless somebody beats me to it. It really needs one. 71.141.251.153 08:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear muslims. I am not a muslim myself (actually I am a non-religious Dane), but I would like to know what muslims think of the following analysis. Of course I realise that views among muslims will differ.
I think the offence caused by the Muhammed drawings works at several levels:
I have these comments myself:
Ad 1., fundamentalists of all kinds may believe that everyone must obey the codex in their particular creed, but the rest of us (and I believe that includes by far most muslims) respect that other people live by other rules. For instance, I do not need to apologise for my eating pork, do I? So, yes, I understand that it is to some extent offensive to many, but in an open democratic world, we all have to accept such offences now and then. E.g., it offends me enormously when someone burn the Danish flag.
I wonder, do muslims who feel offended when told about these drawings, feel more so when they see the actual drawings from Jyllandsposten? Do muslims break any rules by, perhaps inadvertently, seeing the drawings?
Ad 2. and 3., the bomb-in-turban picture could be interpreted as the statement "Muhammad stands behind terror", which, although I suppose Osama bin Laden would happily agree, is an offence to many muslims. An alternative interpretation like "Terror is attributed to Muhammad" (which of course is true) is invalidated by the fact that the artist was commisioned to draw Muhammad, not to draw terror. - The anonymous pig-face picture was published by a Danish islamic organization, not by Jyllandsposten, so it is not relevant here.
For once I agree with the Danish prime minister, though I would like to state it more clearly than he does: Some of these drawings are stupid, but it is not up to the Danish government to decide whether they are blasphemous to a punishable degree; we have a legal system to deal with that. The drawings were published in Denmark, where an artist in 1984 painted a mural at a railway station depicting a nude Jesus with an erect penis. The painting was soon painted over (to the acclaim of Jyllandsposten), but he was not punished. So, it is not only when at the expense of other creeds or cultures that freedom of speach in Denmark is given more weight than respect for other's feelings.
Ad 4., I think it was a mistake when the prime minister refused to meet 11 diplomats from islamic countries 4 months ago, though I understand his reasons. They explicitly asked for the meeting to request that he punished Jyllandsposten, but the prime minister cannot punish anyone. I think he should have refused to meet them with that agenda, but at the same time invited them to a meeting with a different agenda, and I also think he back then should have expressed his dislike of some of the drawings publicly.
-- Niels Ø 09:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Niels (/), how is this proclamation of yours of editorial use to the wiki-article? I dont see how. And I dont see why you publish it here. -- ActiveSelective 09:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am really trying to figure out what to think about the appearance of the drawings in the article. I honestly think they should appear prominently, and I try to understand the reasons why that is so strongly opposed by some. So my views may not interest you, but the comments (esp. from muslims) may interest me, and perhaps others too. My naive hope is that a clearer analysis of the offence may enable us to approach consensus.-- Niels Ø 09:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think I should clarify just how offensive this image is to many Muslims; perhaps the best comparison would be if someone were to wrap a Torah in bacon to prove a point about Judaism.
As if that wasn't enough, the image of Muhammad as a terrorist, wearing a turban that appears to show the Shahadah ("there is no God but God, and Muhammad is His prophet") adds insult to injury. By displaying this image at the top of the article, we risk unneccessarily offending many observant Muslims who have come here to read about the controversy.
At the same time, I also believe both that the image is relevant to the article, and that Wikipedia should avoid self-censorship (I have, for example, consistently taken this position in articles containing anatomical images). In my opinion, the best way to resolve these conflicting goals is to move the image to the end of the article and to add a warning of the form:
This was the solution reached in the similar Baha'i controversy, and seems to me to work very well.
Several of the comments insisting the image stay at the top of the article seem to have a distinct anti-Islamic slant, something I find quite offensive; we should try to respect other people's sensibilities as far as possible, even if we don't agree with them. -- The Anome 10:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
So for instance, the
New York Times coverage of the story is deficient, in your view, because it doesn't even include the cartoon images? Never mind big or small, prominent or not prominent -- they chose not to piss people off. String 'em up from a lamppost in Times Square, I suppose?
BYT 12:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
What I asked about, though, was whether we could cover a provocation without ourselves being provocative. So far as I can make it out, your answer is "No," right?
BYT 12:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Well -- the "facts" here include the obvious one that other media outlets have chosen to take a different path than we have taken here...
Not unlike the way WP itself has chosen not to include a still from "Debbie Does Dallas" at Pornography. I assume we don't have such an image, and I'm not bothering to check. But I'm going to make that assumption based on the principle that a "collaboarative aesthetic" or "collaborative ethic" (for lack of a better word) would predictably preclude such an editorial decision. You just kind of know that a WP article that smart people put a whole bunch of work into is going to move toward the center.
Now here's my point. In other articles, like the Baha'ullah thing and the Oral sex article, we have in fact worked out ways to address the sensibilities of readers who are likely to be gravely offended by certain images. Here, in a much more serious case, we are unwilling to do so.
And the reason we are unwilling to do so is that ... ? (I honestly don't know. I'd like to hear your thoughts, though.)
Added sign. -- Striver 11:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
For a start: The article would be neutral if it didn't set out to insult Muslims and inflame an already potent dispute by waving this red flag in front of them. The article does in fact wave this red flag. It is therefore not neutral. BYT 12:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Sure you can. This is the perfect example. Certain extremists feel this image should be as widely distributed as possible BECAUSE it inflames Muslim sentiment and "teaches them a lesson" of some kind. That's a (political) point of view. As of this moment, WP is catering to that sentiment by featuring the image prominently. BYT 12:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the article misses the understanding of muslims' viewpoint wich i work on it --
Unfinishedchaos 12:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Which enemy is that, Kyaa? BYT 12:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
If people say the image should be available to the public, why not a link? Why post the image at top while risking that Wikipedia can get involved with this whole situation? Just because not a lot of Muslims are active on Wikipedia doesn't mean we can make it worse. 83.160.142.158 13:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
what about picking one of the self-ironic cartoons to show at the top, large? Either the "Mohammed Valloyskele" one where a kid named Muhammad is saying "Jyllands-Posten's journalists are a bunch of reactionary provocateurs", or else the one where the Islamists come running with scimitars and bombs (an anticipation of the controversy really) but their leader is saying "relax folks" (if only!). Both of these are not actually showing a caricature of Mumammad, but ironically refer to Jyllands-Posten's PR stunt itself. dab (ᛏ) 12:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
vote++ MX44
It will also make the point that while everybody seems to assume these are a bunch of racist or islamophobe cartoons (the protesters appartently did not bother to look at them closely), more than half of them are not actually about stereotype views of Muhammad, but about the cartoonists' dilemma. All the more reason to make people look at the cartoons first and discuss later. If fair use permits, Wikipedia should show and discuss the cartoons one by one. Even the "bomb turban" need not be islamophobe, but a political statement about the abuse of Islam for the purposes of extremists. I must say that images like this (not to mention [13] [14]) are far more offensive, being a reflection of atavistic primate hatred untempered by satire or self-irony. dab (ᛏ) 12:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC) dab (ᛏ) 12:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
ActiveSelective 13:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
(ᛏ) 13:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
So how come we don't see a picture of child pornography when we click on Child pornography? BYT 13:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Is the
New York Times part of the problem, too? They chose not even to use these images. Was their editorial decision somehow inimical to the job of covering the story?
BYT 13:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
In this case, it is failing in that objective. BYT 13:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
ok; so how about we describe the eleven cartoons, in words? dab (ᛏ) 21:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I have removed, and will continue to do so if necessary, three sentences User:Dogface has added to the Other controversial newspaper caricatures section. They are: "No Jewish groups fired upon a British consulate building over this matter", "No Jewish groups fired upon a French consulate building over this matter" and "No Jewish groups fired upon a German consulate building over this matter." I believe these sentences are unnecessary point-making and contrasting (an irrelevant we-they-like contrast). This article should not point at the current response to the cartoons and say "look at what they are doing, look how bad they are, and then see how group suchandsuch responded." I believe that my removal of Dogface's comments is similar to User:TheKMan's removal of the sentences "there were no mass riots, and gunmen did not fire upon a consulate over the matter" and "but nobody fired upon an embassy or consulate building over the matter." These are personal opinions that might belong on a blog, but not in an encyclopedia. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 13:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to state what some points of view I have heard in the media but not seen in the article. (Note No personal connection to this, just stating what I have heard in the media). — This user has left wikipedia 13:56 2006-02-03
It was a very useful tool for those trying to get an overview of how this occurred and developed. Now it's gone an in place we have a lot of tangental and, frankly, weird "similar incidents." Some nutbar shooting Larry Flynt because of an interracial picture in Hustler thirty years ago has little to nothing to do with this, and the timeline was actually useful.
Whahoppen? MattShepherd 14:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
the timeline was moved, due to the length of the article. Timeline of the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy AlEX 14:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
According to Brussels Journal, Hezbollah has said that it will conduct suicide attacks in Denmark and Norway in retaliation for publication of the cartoons. They say that the announcement is cited in this article in Jyllands-Posten. Anyone read Danish? [16]. Babajobu 14:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
That wasn't a threat, Brandon was saying he's leaving Wikipedia. Check his userpage: User talk:BrandonYusufToropov. Babajobu 14:52, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes I do, but unfortunately I am not god in writhing English. But it is right as you say. I can translate the beginning:
"Hezbollah is threatening with suicide attacks in Denmark and Norway… The Hezbollah - movement indicate/give a hint of/suggested* that the cries bye the cartons may led to suicide attacks I Denmark and Norway"
I can quote this Norwegian article http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article1213079.ece "- Vi har vært i kontakt med myndighetene i Libanon i kveld. Statsministeren i landet, og Hezbollah selv, avkrefter på det sterkeste at de har fremsatt trusler mot Norge, sier stats- sekretær Raymond til VG Nett."
"We have been in contact with the authorities in Lebanon to night. The prime minister and the Hezbollah it self, denies that there have been any threats towards Norway, says Parliamentary Secretary Raymond to VG news" For Aftenposten is very good newspaper I Norway, also some articles in English http://www.aftenposten.no/english/world/article1212624.ece
Surely suicide bombing is more offensive than these cartoons. User:slamdac
Surveying and writing about these discussion pages would make for an excellent angle on the nuances and themes of the controversy. I'm talking to the reporters reading this. Lotsofissues 15:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
What's the proper thing to call it?( Cloud02 15:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC))
Does anyone remember that episode in South Park about the Super Best Friends? I remember distinctly they drew Mohammud and even showed him moving around and using the power of fire. In fact there is even a wikipedia article about it and I think he's even in the picture! Someone explain to me why there wasn't an enormous uproar over this? I think this is a pic of him standing next to Jesus! http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/504/superbestfriends.gif Hitokirishinji 17:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)</ref>
Hey guys ... u discovered many things alone ... actually no one will kill somebody only cause he draw a pic and he say that is muhammad ... it happen manytimes here in middle east that ppl say blasphemy in streets and between each other , but such things are not considered respectful behaviour , shiite says about some pics that they illustrate muhammad or ali , in spite there are no assertion at all about that ... but in this time the feeling of insulting and the explosive position in this area , the anger from goverments and usa politics ... all of that find a way to be expressed by this way of protesting --
Unfinishedchaos 19:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The BBC's dilemma: http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_4670000/newsid_4678100/4678186.stm (quite relevant) Thparkth 18:02, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Let's keep this Wikipedia article encyclopedic instead of making it a debate. The article describes the controversy around the pictures and therefore, should show the pictures in order for the readers to understand what it's about and make up their own mind and form an informed opinion of their own. This is supposed to be an NPOV encyclopedia and not a debate forum so please, let not religious dogma dictate us (i.e. Wikipedia contributors) to consor ourselves (i.e. our encyclopedia). ( Entheta 18:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)) And besides, it's up to everyone whether they want to click that thumbnail or not to see the larger version of the picture. It's not like the little thumbnail version can really offend anyone who doesn't really want to - and have decided in advance to - get offended. ( Entheta 19:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC))
...a lot of you hopped-up race-baiting right-wing caricatures are seriously tempting me to change my vote to "delete" just to spite you. My god, people, step outside your heads for a second. Comments like "what are you going to do, bomb Wikipedia?" just make you sound like... well, hopped-up race-baiting right-wing caricatures. As stated.
You harm your cause more than you help it with braggadocio and chest-thumping jackassery.
There are serious, academic, intelligent reasons to keep the image, which I support. But my support forces me to stand next to some very shameful human beings. MattShepherd 19:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Aside from the fact that I am not happy with having an inline link to an unabashedly anti-Islam website, the link used makes no clear distinction between the pictures that were published in the JP and unrelated art, and appears to segue into photographs of bloody street scenes.
Also, as much trouble as we seem to be having in translating the Danish text, I do not think it is a good idea to inline link to doctored images with an English translation added. Guppy313 19:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
the low resolution .jpg images was replaced by GraphicArtist to a high resolution .png image [18] in violation with copyright restrictions KimvdLinde 19:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
...to Wiki namespace: Wikipedia:Recentism. This page is a joke and its unfortunate otherwise earnest contributors are wasting time on it. Marskell 20:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)