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Hephaestion 03:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)This story gets more strange as now it has emerged and Egyptian paper, Al-Fager, printed the cartoons on October 17th during Ramadan with no adverse outbreak of violence. http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/egyptian-newspaper-pictures-that.html
I don't buy it. (Btw. although it's pronounced (in egyption arabic) al-fagr, it's spelled al-fajr). As far as I can tell, the rumour originated here: http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/ I think this a blog with an agenda. The photos of the paper with the cartoons in them ( http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/egyptian-newspaper-pictures-that.html) look fishy. They may well be photoshopped. I take this down from our page (where is is WITHOUT SOURCE). If the story solidifies, there is ample opportunity to put it back up. Azate 03:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hephaestion 03:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Thanks Azate, Your action seems reasonable and if indeed that site is the source, it would be questionable, but I would like to see it left as a discussion item here, until there is firm evidence one way or the other as it could have a significant bearing if it were true. I was the one who started this thread but forgot to sign.
Wow! I retract. This is for real. Compare these two scans of the same page from two different sources [2] [3]. Look ot the black frame around the pic with the two women. In one, the green overflows the black frame, in the other they match nicely. This occasional overflowing is a typical artefact of a lousy printing press. I think this is enough to convince me to but it up again. Azate 03:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
There is information here: http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/cartoons-were-published-five-months.html
Specifically: Name: Al Fager الفجر Editor-in-Chief: Adel Hamouda عادل حمودة Edition/issuance no. #: 21 Date: 17 October 2005, Hijri (Islamic Calendar) 14 Ramadan 1425 Reporters: Youssra Zahran and Ahmed Abdel Maksoud يسرا زهران وأحمد عبد المقصود Pages: Front & 17 for details and images The headline in Arabic said : الوقاحة المستمرة. السخرية من الرسول وزوجاته بالكاريكاتير Translation: Continued Boldness. Mocking the Prophet and his wife by Caricature.
Does this help anyone to verify/refute the story? DanielDemaret 09:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I got a prompt answer from the scanner:
"....Here is the website of the newspaper
http://elfagr.org/, and the cover of the issue that I have scanned
http://elfagr.org/ed_21.html. I would say average size ciruclation, because this is a new Newspaper. I don't know accurate figures, because they never mention that in Egypt. Out of fear of getting evil-eyes I guess.
What exactly do you want me to write?"
So that is his question to us: How can he prove that such a paper exists and is reliable? DanielDemaret 11:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure how I could prove to you guys that the largest daily magazine in Sweden exists and is reliable, although I think it may have 1 million in circulation. What is needed? DanielDemaret 11:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Seems to me that [
[4]] is a reliable source, so I reverted. --
Adornix 11:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hephaestion 11:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Someone keeps removing the Egypt reference on the main page on the section of Other Newspapers that have reprinted the Story
I'm not shure if it was me who mixed up the article unintentionally :-( Could someone please write in the Elfagr-Reference? Thanks! -- Adornix 11:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
DanielDemaret 11:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe it. The http://elfagr.org/ed_21.html image has been taken down with no explanation I can see. The pages from the issue before and the issue after work just fine, but the one with the cartoons printed is missing. That was FAST. Richard 129.244.23.13 13:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Really Fast. I am glad I took a copy of it before it went down. But since we are not allowed "original research", only references to mainstream sources, and those mainstream sources remove all the evidence they can, then those rules the wikipedia use will need some serious ... amendments? DanielDemaret 14:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems someone else copied that page before it was censored. http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=2336429
The question is: Can anyone vouch for this paper as a resource? DanielDemaret 15:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, Nescott for adding the image to the article! US fair use is Good. DanielDemaret 16:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Story confirmed by danish ambassador Bjarne Sørensen, Egypt
MX44 16:42, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Don't know how much this matters now that the ambassador has spoken out, but Jyllands-Posten just put up an article trumpeting the news and giving the Egyptian blogger sandmonkey credit for originally breaking the story. Richard 129.244.128.134 20:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The item can be read here. It was picked up by the Danish news agency Ritzau:
and perhaps at other places. I located them through news.google.com gidonb 20:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
All have done the exact same type of (ie redirect to Wayne Rooney) vandalism. It is very likely they all have this IP, anyone agree with me here? We could consider banning this IP.
My mistake!!! I read the backlog wrong, 141.157.169.200 did not commit any vandalism! A sharp eyed admin caught my mistake and unblocked the user fairly quickly. Still, someone needs to check user on this list of people, I know these are right. Hitokirishinji 10:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Because if they are it really should be stated in this article.-- Greasysteve13 02:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The article should mention the fact that there has been a global hacking war going on to deface websites. [7] Jaco plane 03:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The 8th BBC posted a page explaining the cartoons: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4693292.stm .
On this page they have the very same poetic translation: "Prophet, you crazy bloke! Keeping women under yoke."
In addition to this, one on Wikipedia described as:
Two angry Muslims charge forward with sabres and bombs, while Muhammad addresses them with: "Rolig, venner, når alt kommer til alt er det jo bare en tegning lavet af en vantro sønderjyde" (loosely, "Relax guys, it's just a drawing made by some infidel South Jutlander". South Jutland as reference would, for a Dane, connote the feeling of something like the middle of nowhere).
In BBC's version: "Relax guys, it's just a drawing made by some infidel South Jutlander (ie from the middle of nowhere)," the figure says.
As a Dane, I think the explanation of Southern Jutland as being in the middle of nowhere is far from obvious. It is definitely not an standard expression.
Here is a bit of insider information: the cartoonist in question is actually from South Jutland. There is to the best of my knowledge no adage about South Jutlanders signifying being from the middle of nowhere. Voldmer
A great compliment for wikipedia to be copied by a respectable media such as BBC.... Kjaergaard 05:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
New news. Taliban offering death penalty for the cartoonist!!!!
05:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)~
About 1 hour ago BBC World had a headline running across the lower screen that stated Wikipedia reports that... or something similar. Is that not a problem? If BBC quotes us that must mean we are doing Original Research which is forbidden. Sad I was not fast enough to read what the headline stated. Did anybody? A human 07:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
It is not a problem that we do original research. It is problem only if we publish our original research in our articles. Here in the discussion are it is safe. And if we manage to find references, then we can publish that. We should just probably not publish the a blog link in the article itself until we have some kind of consensus that we are all pretty sure it is fact.
DanielDemaret 07:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The page about the Dossier of Danish Muslim clerics touring the Middle East has been nominated for deletion. You can opine on the issue here: [9]. Azate 05:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Our article intro states that it is the publishing in more than 30 countries that has lead to the unrest, or at least that is how I read it. But the protests are still mainly against Denmark, so is this not a conclusion that is drawn just a tad further than we can substantiate? DanielDemaret 07:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Should mention the 1992 Ayodhya incident (Babri Masjid).
I'm definitely too lazy to go back and look through the archives, so I'm asking, has it been discussed if the image should be shown as a link (like at
Autofellatio - NOT WORK SAFE!)? Example on the right. {{linkimage|Jyllands-Posten Muhammad drawings.jpg|The Face of Muhammed - The controversial cartoons of Muhammad, first published in Jyllands-Posten in September 2005.}}
NSL
E (
T+
C) 08:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
EGYPT PAPER ALREADY PUBLISHED CARTOONS IN OCTOBER, you can see that there might be a dramaticly new turn of events. If allegations in that section turn out to be correct then these pictures was not what started the violence. DanielDemaret 09:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
It surely explains why it took months for Muslims to get angry.-- Nomen Nescio 10:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Which brings us back to what I said earlier on this page. should the opinions part (in which this surely must be mentioned) not be included in the main article?-- Nomen Nescio 12:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Please don't do this. With the comment that was removed gone, the information it provided - that the BBC wasn't actually quoting us about the cartoon controversy - was also gone, leaving the discussion incomplete. Vashti 13:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not Muslim, i'm catholic. But it seems to me that the muslims (where's frank?) have some justification for claiming that this site does not respect their religion. why? because
1) comparisons with showing anti-semitic or anti-christian paraphernalia are invalid, i think. the muslims are expressly forbidden - expressly - to have pictures of the prophet muhammed. i dont believe there is a christian equivalent to this, and if there was, it wouldn't matter, simply because its overwhelmingly ignored. and even if they are not forbidden to display muhammed images, as some have claimed, the fact that many people respect that, as a semi-religious duty, means that we simply have to respect that belief.
2) It could be just me, but it seems that we in the west look slightly down on muslim posters here, maybe subconsciously, maybe consciously. i think the problem is that we view muslims and islam as a group, as a unit, and not as one billion people with one billion opinions. therefore, we lump some half-witted imam called muhammed abu alim aziz bashir osama fahd muhammed muhammed muhammed bin muhammed muhammed and his dumbass fatwas with respectable muslims who know stuff and dont freak out over everything and anything, and if they write in, even if we dont say it out loud, we think, "oh, its just another muhammed abu alim... etc etc" and talk dumb to him (see kyaa the catlord's responses on this page).
a dumbass opinion? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.21.154.110 ( talk • contribs) . 2006-02-09 15:03:32 +0100
Sir/Madame, if you have a personal problem with me, please use my talk page. I'd be willing to have a reasonable discussion on your view on my responses. Thanks! Kyaa the Catlord 14:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
But what are they forbidden by? Apparently not the Qu'ran, just some stuff from some Hadith or something made by people a couple hundered years into Islam's existance, or extremely stretchy interps of the Qu'ran. If we simply have to respect this, I must of missed the memo, because I sure haven't so far. Nextly, personally speaking, I don't like Islam. Other people in this discussion probably don't like free speech suppression. Either way, people seem extremely convicted in their beliefs on the matter, so whether we really are lumping people together or not, it's unlikely consensus will be changed soon. Homestarmy 14:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
One major reason that we get these objections over and over again, is that the lead to this article states that the main problem with the pictures is aniconism. People read this, believe it because it says so in wikipedia, and therefore object. Early on, I believed it had to do with aniconism since I naively so nothing offensive in the pictures per se. In fact, I was a bit surprised at how inoffensive they were. But I no longer think that the anoconism theory is true. I can buy a picture of Muhammed in shops in Teheran. I have not seen a single self-proclaimed muslim claim that the problem has to do with aniconism. We in the west are clearly inventing reasons for the pictures being offensive. The insults I have read muslims write and say are that: 1. They identify all islam with terrorists and 2. By portraying an arab in a cartoon we are looking down on them. Nothing about aniconism there. What references do we have that aniconism is the reason? Western references. Did they check this with muslims or did they just look it up in a dictionary?
DanielDemaret 14:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
So the popular internet cartoon Flem did their own version of the muhammad cartoons. Can we add that in to the article? ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 14:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a link to these [11] images which show the anti-semitic cartoons in Arab newspapers over the last few years which are just as bad if not worse than the ones from Denmark. I think it's very relevant and a heavy proof toward the opinion of hypocrisy that some western world sources have stated. Elfguy 15:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. I think some of them are not far from the truth if you bear in mind that Palestinians have to go through numerous checkpoints and submit to Israeli soldiers regularly.
About the argument: I definitely don't think those cartoons are worse or more offensive than the ones from Denmark. The cartoons mostly depict current political figures, making reference to political ideologies and arguments. The ones from Denmark are about a prophet who lived centuries ago. Whether one agrees on the Anti-Semitist cartoons or not is not the topic. But one could theoretically and logically discuss them and the messages within. The caricatures from Denmark, without even looking at the content or the message disseminated through them, are offensive for muslims because of the technical and quite strict religious limitation, that the prophet can not be depicted in any shape or form (Again if other people agree with this or not is another matter). So by default this is an offense for muslims. If this point is taken out, then the caricatures are comparable, and one could discuss the meaning and content. As it is, it is a prophet shown to be a tyrant, and an evil terrorist. This in my opinion is not acceptable under any pretext.
212.201.44.249 19:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Serkan
I agree with your judgement on that particular cartoon, but this was not my point. The equivalent to the Danish caricatures would be similar drawings of Moses, not Sharon or any other jewish person. Sharon is a political leader and ordinary jewish people are not comparable to Moses either. 212.201.44.249 21:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Serkan
The fact you think the link is needed proves my point in another discussion on this page. I already inserted it, but some wise editor thought it should be moved from the main article. It is here. Once again I would like to suggest reinserting the opinions part into the main article, because it is a fundamental part of the story.-- Nomen Nescio 22:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Why were the two open letters from Jyllands-Posten removed? They were apologies to the muslim world, and I think it is important to have such information on Wikipedia to help solve this conflict. I translated the first open letter, which was published in danish and arabic, from danish to english, and posted it here. The second letter which was published in english as well, was posted here as well. If no one has any complaints, or good arguments of why not to put them on here, I'm going to repost the two open letters. -- Akuen 15:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'll repost them. I would only be able to link to the second one though, as the first one was not published in english. I did a thorough translation of it from danish to english, though. -- Akuen 23:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
As I am sure you all know, the childrens book which started it all came out a few days ago. It is selling amazingly well, along with the export of danish flags. Since it contains many drawings of Mohammed, including a sweet one where he sits with his youngest little wife on his lap, and it has not resulted in any bad feelings from anyone, is this a significant enough fact for inclusion into the article? DanielDemaret 16:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe there should be a mention of the ties between the cultural editor of JP, Flemming Rose, and leading US anti-muslim propagandists like Daniel Pipes? 80.202.25.17 17:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
These comments are only useful to those who'd like to point out your anti-Islam bias; you're giving them ammunition... Dmaftei 20:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, they're in Danish. But better than nothing. Maybe there is sombody interested enough to translate them to English and put them into the Dossier of Danish imams touring the Middle East section? I'm sure in a day or so they will be available in other languages anyways, but if sombody really can't wait, all the better. The Danish translations are here: [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] Azate 17:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
DR (the Danish equivalent to the BBC) has posted a list of 10 misunderstandings / -representations relevant to this issue (they seem quite well referenced). Some may be new to this article and worth including ( http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Temaer/Oevrige_temaer/2006/Tegninger/Artikler/201343.htm )- by the way, where has that section in the article gone ? Perhaps I've missed part of the discussion, has it been 'axed' ? 86.139.124.242 17:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Mila 86.139.124.242 17:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that there was a section detailing some of the mistranslations and -representations (the quite frivoulous one about the queen is the only one that springs to mind! :-) Mila 81.132.174.178 18:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Can't it simply be reinserted? Mila 81.132.174.178 22:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
No problem. It seems to have been removed by Azate at 12:16 (see below). All the information is there to be reinserted; but I don't know to do it! Perhaps someone else could do the honor?
(cur) (last) 12:16, 9 February 2006 Azate (→Rumours and misinformation - deleted. this has been much shortened and put into the timeline (try to look for hot dog e.g.))
Mila 81.132.174.178 23:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
"The barrier to better Arab performance is not a lack of resources, concludes the report, but the lamentable shortage of three essentials: freedom, knowledge and womanpower. Not having enough of these amounts to what the authors call the region's three “deficits”. It is these deficits, they argue, that hold the frustrated Arabs back from reaching their potential—and allow the rest of the world both to despise and to fear a deadly combination of wealth and backwardness." Economist quoting Arab Muslim scholars WAS 4.250 19:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
"The protests also allowed governments to outflank a growing challenge from Islamic opposition movements by defending Islam. [...] The Saudis did this because they have to score against Islamic fundamentalists [meaning other Islamic fundamentalists], said Mr. Said, the Cairo political scientist. Syria made an even worse miscalculation, he added, alluding to the sense that the protest had gotten out of hand. The issue of the cartoons came at a critical time in the Muslim world because of Muslim anger over the occupation of Iraq and a sense that Muslims were under siege. Strong showings by Islamists in elections in Egypt and the victory of Hamas in the Palestinian elections had given new momentum to Islamic movements in the region, and many economies, especially those in the Persian Gulf, realized their economic power as it pertained to Denmark." New York Times article: At Mecca Meeting, Cartoon Outrage Crystallized WAS 4.250 19:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Read http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2006/February/middleeast_February156.xml§ion=middleeast second paragraph from the end gidonb 20:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
17 October, 2005. [19] Notice that they removed this one picture, just after it broke out. Everything has long been confirmed by the editor, dimplomats, newspapers, new agencies and television stations. gidonb 04:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion to correct some factual errors: You can hardly say that Belgium and France are "Denmark'southern neighbors". Look at the map. - As correctly stated in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_that_reprinted_Jyllands-Posten%27s_Muhammad_cartoons bigger country's as France, Germany, Italy and Spain printed two days earlier the cartoons than some Belgium's newspapers.
According to this source, back in December Pakisatini based group Jamaate-Islami reportedly placed a price of around €7,000, mistakenly upon the head of a "sole" cartoonist the believe responsible for all 12 cartoons. [20], Tom Spurgeon carried it, and also reports back in December that "A few observers have suggested the negative reaction to those cartoons established a precedent for more sustained and violent youth protests that followed in France and in other European countries in one of the bigger international news stories of 2005." Sadly he doesn't document the sources. [21] Hiding talk 21:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- Lot's of people in the West sees this as a religious rule imposed on non believers like Muslims would forbid to other people to eat pork or Jews impose non Jews to cover their head.
- Many Muslims see it as a provocation like entering a Church in short pants or entering a Buddhist temple with shoes on or using a religious symbol inappropriately (in the presence of worshipers).
- That's a ludicrous comparison above. The Danish editor did not enter a mosque in any country with the cartoons. I have visited mosques, synagogues and churches, and abided their rules. It is a provocation when a religious group tries to tell me how to behave in the secular World, especially when I am not of their belief or opinion.
84.190.207.92 08:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The list of "comparable incidents" covers more the insulting part, the freedom of speech question. The other part, the not obeying a religious rule, could be covered by other examples. Visiting a sacred place or a religious ceremony, it is accepted that non believers follow the rules. Are there other situations, incidents like that?
Kofi Annan has now asked that editors please stop publishing the controversial Muhammad cartoons that have caused such consternation. In my opinion, this appeal should be responded to, and we should withdraw the samples of the offending cartoons from wikipedia. Mokwella 21:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
February 2006 (UTC)
These images are important information, and add context to this informational article. It would be a mistake to remove them, as it would be detrimental to people who wish to learn more, but can't because of censorship. — TheKMan talk 22:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
That's where the conspiracy theory starts. An increasing number of people, including Ms Rice, have accused Syria and Iran of provoking things to distract attention from their problems.-- Nomen Nescio 22:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Here its is gidonb 23:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC) MODERATOR: Next question is Charlie Wolfson from CBS.
QUESTION: Madame Secretary, in the aftermath of the printing of the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, there has been outrage around the world that we've all seen. The question is: Do you think this is spontaneous as it continues? If not, who is behind it? What group or what governments might be behind it?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, let me first say that this has been a difficult period. We are strong proponents of the freedom of the press. It is one of the most fundamental freedoms of democratic development. We also believe that with press freedom comes a certain responsibility. And the United States has been a place where there has been also freedom of religion and that means that people have to exist in the same body and to respect each other's religious traditions and respect each other's religious sensibilities and that is also very important.
Now, nothing justifies the violence that has broken out in which many innocent people have been injured. Nothing justifies the burning of diplomatic facilities or threats to diplomatic facilities around the world. This is a time when everyone should urge calm and should urge that there is an atmosphere of respect and understanding.
I think that there have been a lot of governments that have spoken out about this. Note, for instance, Afghanistan and Lebanon, very important comments even by the Ayatollah Sistani about this.
But yes, there are governments that have also used this opportunity to incite violence. I don't have any doubt that given the control of the Syrian Government in Syria, given the control of the Iranian Government, which, by the way, hasn't even hidden its hand in this, that Iran and Syria have gone out of their way to inflame sentiments and to use this to their own purposes. And the world ought to call them on it. All responsible people ought to say that there is no excuse for violence. We all need to respect each other's religions. We need to respect freedom of the press. But you know, again, with freedom of the press comes responsibility as well. [22]
When did Kofi Annan say this? From Reuters Canada, I see him saying it's "inappropriate". For all I know, Mokwella is simply starting another futile argument for removing the images. Unless a Scientologist Lawyer sues us while threatening the gasoline supply of the world, interrupting cable TV transmissions in the U.S., and summoning the Wrath of God in a manner not unlike Pat Robertson, they will not be removed. -- Tokachu 00:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is the text from the United Nations Seceretary General's own website: Annan Urges Responsibility Over Caricatures -- 9 February -- At a press encounter this morning, the Secretary-General was asked about the recent publication of caricatures of the prophet Muhammad, and, while he underlined his support for freedom of speech, he also pointed to the need to exercise responsibility and judgment. "Quite honestly," he said, "I cannot understand why any editor will publish cartoons at this time which inflames and pours oil on the fire." http://www.un.org/News/ossg/sg/ From my own perspective, it appears wikipedia (collectively) is willing to sacrifice civility on the altar of 'freedom of the press'. If this is an encyclopedia, do we not have at least maintain some level of social responsibility,particularly in regard to images, as opposed to text? Please take the pictures down. Mokwella 20:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
It is unusually peaceful tonight. Have we reached the end of the "current event" periode? Is it time to pick up all the confusing little pieces and make a solid article? MX44 21:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060209/ap_on_re_eu/prophet_drawings_profits 86.52.36.140 23:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that, when this stops being current events, we should have (yet) another vote. This time giving "all" the options available and letting people decide once and for all what they want. If anyone else would like to propose what these options could be, so be it?
Options i had in mind were: large pic at top, thumb at top with high res pic, small pic at top, link at top, large pic lower down, thumb lower down with high res pic, small pic lower down, link lower down, no picture or link at all. WookMuff 22:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
You forgot another option: large high res picture of each individual cartoon, at top (maybe running down the side of the article)... Valtam 22:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, I ask that you stop accusing people of being dishonest. It is rude, and violates WP:NPA. Anyway, I was being honest, and you should reread what I wrote. I was not denying that the artist was intending to depict Muhammad; what I said was that a person with a bomb-cum-turban is not a plausible depiction of someone committing a terrorist act. More likely the cartoon is metaphorical, as such cartoons often are. It's more likely the author is alluding to the use of Islam to justify terrorist acts than that he was saying "look, this is Muhammad about to blow someone up with a bomb in his turban!" Babajobu 03:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
And that is where you are doing mistake. To have all those cartoons is pointless, because:
Should I call this answer as an honest one? You are not answering my points... Just changing course of the discussion. That is why the consensus you are talking about is not a real one. People is not answering the points they dislike, just using their dominant number to pass a regulation or a change in the article. Poll 3 here couldn't stay more than a night here? Why? Unfortunately English Wiki is acting like a Judeo-Christian Forum. I am saddened to realize that. This behaviour will effect greatly the reliability of WIki and I believe you will realize that soon. Resid Gulerdem 04:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, hang on. We just voted on this matter and decided to keep the pictures. How do you think they are suddenly going to disappear? Also, three of these picture were published in Egypt. Then how are you going to convince the folks at the English language Wikipedia to hide them or enter them through a link? Just puzzled. gidonb 04:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Moved to the bottom WookMuff 23:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
WookMuff, I would like to propose the following option for your poll:
I had a somewhat different take than the one that won, but I strongly believe that the previous outcome is binding. Add the 100 extra categories if you like, but also the one I proposed. I hope my point makes you understand that you will not have a different result two days later, even if you try to dilute the vote between complex categories. gidonb 05:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, if this article causes you undue stress, I suggest you never click any link to this article ever again. The image stays. Continuing this whining will only cost you precious time, which you could also spend on articles needing attention more desperately. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 21:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that, when this stops being current events, we should have (yet) another vote. This time giving "all" the options available and letting people decide once and for all what they want. If anyone else would like to propose what these options could be, so be it?
additionally
Once more, please don't just come and say "blah blah polls are irrelevant." Please don't comment unless you have something to add, because there are 10 other pages of places to complain on this topic. Comment here if you think i have left an option out? WookMuff 23:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with a MultiPoll: imagine every entry getting 100 votes except "remove picture" gets 101. So it seems "remove" is the popular choice. When in fact 1000 votes were for keeping the picture in some form. It can be very difficult to extract a meaningful result from that kind of a poll. That's why Poll 1 and Poll 2 were the way they were. Weregerbil 23:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
In that case I am against holding your poll. I do not see why you want to forbid me to refer to the previous poll if they are held so closely together in time. gidonb 01:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Your objection is noted. But, what do you mean about "held so closely together in time"? "My poll" as you have called it, is a theoretical poll. My proposal is that a poll be held, once things are calm, that has more than yes, no, and comments. If you want to call it the "WookMuff Poll for Peace and Harmony" then so be it ;) WookMuff 02:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Can somebody explain calmly if there is any argument, besides poll number 3, against moving the cartoons, say, next to the bulleted list that describes each? Thanks. Dmaftei 22:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I meant poll number 2. Too many polls... Dmaftei 23:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes ther are:
I couldn't see in the article that about 2500 Danish signed an online declaration stating that, 'JP should appoligize and they want peace with Muslims'. JP also puplished a new version of their appology. Will these be included? Resid Gulerdem 22:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I don't see how http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/ (Reconciliation section, at the end) is good for the article, and at the same time http://www.anotherdenmark.org/ is not. All the arguments above against the inclusion of http://www.anotherdenmark.org/ are applicable to http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/ too. Dmaftei 19:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Blue is where cartoons have been printed. Red is where violent protests have taken place, this is just preliminary, any feedback is appreciated. Hitokirishinji 23:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Ironically, I forgot to mark in Denmark... I was planning to add more colors for places that have both protests and have printed the cartoons and others. Hitokirishinji 23:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Good job, Hitokirishinji. Some cartographic comments: There are very few reds, so it is really a waste not to include all of Somalia. On the other hand, in the north you can cut the picture just north of continental Norway. There is no need to include some obscure Norwegian islands that hardly show on the map. You can also cut out some of the east, I would keep all of Pakistan in although it is white. No need to include the whole world. It would give too much white and too little detail. gidonb 23:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
What qualifies as "violent"? People killed? Buildings burned? Flags burned? Anything else? Dmaftei 00:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The cartoons were also printed in Yemen, in the Yemen Observer. The paper was closed by the government after printing the cartoons. See also Jawa Report and Yemen Times editorial.
Thank you for doing that map! Consider a rainbow scale of colours, where the more violent the event, the hotter (more red) it gets. It would give more info, and be prettier :) DanielDemaret 09:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Update on the map
This is what I have so far:
Blue - countries that printed
Sliding scale of pink to hot red - protests, depending upon intensity
Mixed - both protests and printed
Things I wanted to add:
Flame icon - buildings burned
Denmark flag icon - places where Danish goods have been boycott
Small red person icon - places where people have died
If anyone feels strongly about anything, please let me know.
--
Hitokirishinji 15:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Please let me know what you think! I have updated with a new color scheme and everything. Also anyone who is color blind let me know if you can make sense of it. Also please lets all agree on the colors and everything soon. It takes time to make this so lets come to a consensus today because once I start working on it over the weekend, it's set in stone. One more thing, this map is not complete yet. There are still quite a few countries left out so please don't assume its anywhere near done. Hitokirishinji 22:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hephaestion 03:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)This story gets more strange as now it has emerged and Egyptian paper, Al-Fager, printed the cartoons on October 17th during Ramadan with no adverse outbreak of violence. http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/egyptian-newspaper-pictures-that.html
I don't buy it. (Btw. although it's pronounced (in egyption arabic) al-fagr, it's spelled al-fajr). As far as I can tell, the rumour originated here: http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/ I think this a blog with an agenda. The photos of the paper with the cartoons in them ( http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/egyptian-newspaper-pictures-that.html) look fishy. They may well be photoshopped. I take this down from our page (where is is WITHOUT SOURCE). If the story solidifies, there is ample opportunity to put it back up. Azate 03:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hephaestion 03:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Thanks Azate, Your action seems reasonable and if indeed that site is the source, it would be questionable, but I would like to see it left as a discussion item here, until there is firm evidence one way or the other as it could have a significant bearing if it were true. I was the one who started this thread but forgot to sign.
Wow! I retract. This is for real. Compare these two scans of the same page from two different sources [2] [3]. Look ot the black frame around the pic with the two women. In one, the green overflows the black frame, in the other they match nicely. This occasional overflowing is a typical artefact of a lousy printing press. I think this is enough to convince me to but it up again. Azate 03:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
There is information here: http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/cartoons-were-published-five-months.html
Specifically: Name: Al Fager الفجر Editor-in-Chief: Adel Hamouda عادل حمودة Edition/issuance no. #: 21 Date: 17 October 2005, Hijri (Islamic Calendar) 14 Ramadan 1425 Reporters: Youssra Zahran and Ahmed Abdel Maksoud يسرا زهران وأحمد عبد المقصود Pages: Front & 17 for details and images The headline in Arabic said : الوقاحة المستمرة. السخرية من الرسول وزوجاته بالكاريكاتير Translation: Continued Boldness. Mocking the Prophet and his wife by Caricature.
Does this help anyone to verify/refute the story? DanielDemaret 09:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I got a prompt answer from the scanner:
"....Here is the website of the newspaper
http://elfagr.org/, and the cover of the issue that I have scanned
http://elfagr.org/ed_21.html. I would say average size ciruclation, because this is a new Newspaper. I don't know accurate figures, because they never mention that in Egypt. Out of fear of getting evil-eyes I guess.
What exactly do you want me to write?"
So that is his question to us: How can he prove that such a paper exists and is reliable? DanielDemaret 11:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure how I could prove to you guys that the largest daily magazine in Sweden exists and is reliable, although I think it may have 1 million in circulation. What is needed? DanielDemaret 11:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Seems to me that [
[4]] is a reliable source, so I reverted. --
Adornix 11:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hephaestion 11:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Someone keeps removing the Egypt reference on the main page on the section of Other Newspapers that have reprinted the Story
I'm not shure if it was me who mixed up the article unintentionally :-( Could someone please write in the Elfagr-Reference? Thanks! -- Adornix 11:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
DanielDemaret 11:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe it. The http://elfagr.org/ed_21.html image has been taken down with no explanation I can see. The pages from the issue before and the issue after work just fine, but the one with the cartoons printed is missing. That was FAST. Richard 129.244.23.13 13:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Really Fast. I am glad I took a copy of it before it went down. But since we are not allowed "original research", only references to mainstream sources, and those mainstream sources remove all the evidence they can, then those rules the wikipedia use will need some serious ... amendments? DanielDemaret 14:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems someone else copied that page before it was censored. http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=2336429
The question is: Can anyone vouch for this paper as a resource? DanielDemaret 15:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, Nescott for adding the image to the article! US fair use is Good. DanielDemaret 16:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Story confirmed by danish ambassador Bjarne Sørensen, Egypt
MX44 16:42, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Don't know how much this matters now that the ambassador has spoken out, but Jyllands-Posten just put up an article trumpeting the news and giving the Egyptian blogger sandmonkey credit for originally breaking the story. Richard 129.244.128.134 20:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The item can be read here. It was picked up by the Danish news agency Ritzau:
and perhaps at other places. I located them through news.google.com gidonb 20:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
All have done the exact same type of (ie redirect to Wayne Rooney) vandalism. It is very likely they all have this IP, anyone agree with me here? We could consider banning this IP.
My mistake!!! I read the backlog wrong, 141.157.169.200 did not commit any vandalism! A sharp eyed admin caught my mistake and unblocked the user fairly quickly. Still, someone needs to check user on this list of people, I know these are right. Hitokirishinji 10:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Because if they are it really should be stated in this article.-- Greasysteve13 02:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The article should mention the fact that there has been a global hacking war going on to deface websites. [7] Jaco plane 03:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The 8th BBC posted a page explaining the cartoons: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4693292.stm .
On this page they have the very same poetic translation: "Prophet, you crazy bloke! Keeping women under yoke."
In addition to this, one on Wikipedia described as:
Two angry Muslims charge forward with sabres and bombs, while Muhammad addresses them with: "Rolig, venner, når alt kommer til alt er det jo bare en tegning lavet af en vantro sønderjyde" (loosely, "Relax guys, it's just a drawing made by some infidel South Jutlander". South Jutland as reference would, for a Dane, connote the feeling of something like the middle of nowhere).
In BBC's version: "Relax guys, it's just a drawing made by some infidel South Jutlander (ie from the middle of nowhere)," the figure says.
As a Dane, I think the explanation of Southern Jutland as being in the middle of nowhere is far from obvious. It is definitely not an standard expression.
Here is a bit of insider information: the cartoonist in question is actually from South Jutland. There is to the best of my knowledge no adage about South Jutlanders signifying being from the middle of nowhere. Voldmer
A great compliment for wikipedia to be copied by a respectable media such as BBC.... Kjaergaard 05:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
New news. Taliban offering death penalty for the cartoonist!!!!
05:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)~
About 1 hour ago BBC World had a headline running across the lower screen that stated Wikipedia reports that... or something similar. Is that not a problem? If BBC quotes us that must mean we are doing Original Research which is forbidden. Sad I was not fast enough to read what the headline stated. Did anybody? A human 07:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
It is not a problem that we do original research. It is problem only if we publish our original research in our articles. Here in the discussion are it is safe. And if we manage to find references, then we can publish that. We should just probably not publish the a blog link in the article itself until we have some kind of consensus that we are all pretty sure it is fact.
DanielDemaret 07:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The page about the Dossier of Danish Muslim clerics touring the Middle East has been nominated for deletion. You can opine on the issue here: [9]. Azate 05:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Our article intro states that it is the publishing in more than 30 countries that has lead to the unrest, or at least that is how I read it. But the protests are still mainly against Denmark, so is this not a conclusion that is drawn just a tad further than we can substantiate? DanielDemaret 07:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Should mention the 1992 Ayodhya incident (Babri Masjid).
I'm definitely too lazy to go back and look through the archives, so I'm asking, has it been discussed if the image should be shown as a link (like at
Autofellatio - NOT WORK SAFE!)? Example on the right. {{linkimage|Jyllands-Posten Muhammad drawings.jpg|The Face of Muhammed - The controversial cartoons of Muhammad, first published in Jyllands-Posten in September 2005.}}
NSL
E (
T+
C) 08:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
EGYPT PAPER ALREADY PUBLISHED CARTOONS IN OCTOBER, you can see that there might be a dramaticly new turn of events. If allegations in that section turn out to be correct then these pictures was not what started the violence. DanielDemaret 09:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
It surely explains why it took months for Muslims to get angry.-- Nomen Nescio 10:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Which brings us back to what I said earlier on this page. should the opinions part (in which this surely must be mentioned) not be included in the main article?-- Nomen Nescio 12:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Please don't do this. With the comment that was removed gone, the information it provided - that the BBC wasn't actually quoting us about the cartoon controversy - was also gone, leaving the discussion incomplete. Vashti 13:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not Muslim, i'm catholic. But it seems to me that the muslims (where's frank?) have some justification for claiming that this site does not respect their religion. why? because
1) comparisons with showing anti-semitic or anti-christian paraphernalia are invalid, i think. the muslims are expressly forbidden - expressly - to have pictures of the prophet muhammed. i dont believe there is a christian equivalent to this, and if there was, it wouldn't matter, simply because its overwhelmingly ignored. and even if they are not forbidden to display muhammed images, as some have claimed, the fact that many people respect that, as a semi-religious duty, means that we simply have to respect that belief.
2) It could be just me, but it seems that we in the west look slightly down on muslim posters here, maybe subconsciously, maybe consciously. i think the problem is that we view muslims and islam as a group, as a unit, and not as one billion people with one billion opinions. therefore, we lump some half-witted imam called muhammed abu alim aziz bashir osama fahd muhammed muhammed muhammed bin muhammed muhammed and his dumbass fatwas with respectable muslims who know stuff and dont freak out over everything and anything, and if they write in, even if we dont say it out loud, we think, "oh, its just another muhammed abu alim... etc etc" and talk dumb to him (see kyaa the catlord's responses on this page).
a dumbass opinion? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.21.154.110 ( talk • contribs) . 2006-02-09 15:03:32 +0100
Sir/Madame, if you have a personal problem with me, please use my talk page. I'd be willing to have a reasonable discussion on your view on my responses. Thanks! Kyaa the Catlord 14:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
But what are they forbidden by? Apparently not the Qu'ran, just some stuff from some Hadith or something made by people a couple hundered years into Islam's existance, or extremely stretchy interps of the Qu'ran. If we simply have to respect this, I must of missed the memo, because I sure haven't so far. Nextly, personally speaking, I don't like Islam. Other people in this discussion probably don't like free speech suppression. Either way, people seem extremely convicted in their beliefs on the matter, so whether we really are lumping people together or not, it's unlikely consensus will be changed soon. Homestarmy 14:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
One major reason that we get these objections over and over again, is that the lead to this article states that the main problem with the pictures is aniconism. People read this, believe it because it says so in wikipedia, and therefore object. Early on, I believed it had to do with aniconism since I naively so nothing offensive in the pictures per se. In fact, I was a bit surprised at how inoffensive they were. But I no longer think that the anoconism theory is true. I can buy a picture of Muhammed in shops in Teheran. I have not seen a single self-proclaimed muslim claim that the problem has to do with aniconism. We in the west are clearly inventing reasons for the pictures being offensive. The insults I have read muslims write and say are that: 1. They identify all islam with terrorists and 2. By portraying an arab in a cartoon we are looking down on them. Nothing about aniconism there. What references do we have that aniconism is the reason? Western references. Did they check this with muslims or did they just look it up in a dictionary?
DanielDemaret 14:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
So the popular internet cartoon Flem did their own version of the muhammad cartoons. Can we add that in to the article? ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 14:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a link to these [11] images which show the anti-semitic cartoons in Arab newspapers over the last few years which are just as bad if not worse than the ones from Denmark. I think it's very relevant and a heavy proof toward the opinion of hypocrisy that some western world sources have stated. Elfguy 15:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. I think some of them are not far from the truth if you bear in mind that Palestinians have to go through numerous checkpoints and submit to Israeli soldiers regularly.
About the argument: I definitely don't think those cartoons are worse or more offensive than the ones from Denmark. The cartoons mostly depict current political figures, making reference to political ideologies and arguments. The ones from Denmark are about a prophet who lived centuries ago. Whether one agrees on the Anti-Semitist cartoons or not is not the topic. But one could theoretically and logically discuss them and the messages within. The caricatures from Denmark, without even looking at the content or the message disseminated through them, are offensive for muslims because of the technical and quite strict religious limitation, that the prophet can not be depicted in any shape or form (Again if other people agree with this or not is another matter). So by default this is an offense for muslims. If this point is taken out, then the caricatures are comparable, and one could discuss the meaning and content. As it is, it is a prophet shown to be a tyrant, and an evil terrorist. This in my opinion is not acceptable under any pretext.
212.201.44.249 19:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Serkan
I agree with your judgement on that particular cartoon, but this was not my point. The equivalent to the Danish caricatures would be similar drawings of Moses, not Sharon or any other jewish person. Sharon is a political leader and ordinary jewish people are not comparable to Moses either. 212.201.44.249 21:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Serkan
The fact you think the link is needed proves my point in another discussion on this page. I already inserted it, but some wise editor thought it should be moved from the main article. It is here. Once again I would like to suggest reinserting the opinions part into the main article, because it is a fundamental part of the story.-- Nomen Nescio 22:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Why were the two open letters from Jyllands-Posten removed? They were apologies to the muslim world, and I think it is important to have such information on Wikipedia to help solve this conflict. I translated the first open letter, which was published in danish and arabic, from danish to english, and posted it here. The second letter which was published in english as well, was posted here as well. If no one has any complaints, or good arguments of why not to put them on here, I'm going to repost the two open letters. -- Akuen 15:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'll repost them. I would only be able to link to the second one though, as the first one was not published in english. I did a thorough translation of it from danish to english, though. -- Akuen 23:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
As I am sure you all know, the childrens book which started it all came out a few days ago. It is selling amazingly well, along with the export of danish flags. Since it contains many drawings of Mohammed, including a sweet one where he sits with his youngest little wife on his lap, and it has not resulted in any bad feelings from anyone, is this a significant enough fact for inclusion into the article? DanielDemaret 16:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe there should be a mention of the ties between the cultural editor of JP, Flemming Rose, and leading US anti-muslim propagandists like Daniel Pipes? 80.202.25.17 17:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
These comments are only useful to those who'd like to point out your anti-Islam bias; you're giving them ammunition... Dmaftei 20:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, they're in Danish. But better than nothing. Maybe there is sombody interested enough to translate them to English and put them into the Dossier of Danish imams touring the Middle East section? I'm sure in a day or so they will be available in other languages anyways, but if sombody really can't wait, all the better. The Danish translations are here: [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] Azate 17:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
DR (the Danish equivalent to the BBC) has posted a list of 10 misunderstandings / -representations relevant to this issue (they seem quite well referenced). Some may be new to this article and worth including ( http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Temaer/Oevrige_temaer/2006/Tegninger/Artikler/201343.htm )- by the way, where has that section in the article gone ? Perhaps I've missed part of the discussion, has it been 'axed' ? 86.139.124.242 17:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Mila 86.139.124.242 17:59, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that there was a section detailing some of the mistranslations and -representations (the quite frivoulous one about the queen is the only one that springs to mind! :-) Mila 81.132.174.178 18:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Can't it simply be reinserted? Mila 81.132.174.178 22:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
No problem. It seems to have been removed by Azate at 12:16 (see below). All the information is there to be reinserted; but I don't know to do it! Perhaps someone else could do the honor?
(cur) (last) 12:16, 9 February 2006 Azate (→Rumours and misinformation - deleted. this has been much shortened and put into the timeline (try to look for hot dog e.g.))
Mila 81.132.174.178 23:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
"The barrier to better Arab performance is not a lack of resources, concludes the report, but the lamentable shortage of three essentials: freedom, knowledge and womanpower. Not having enough of these amounts to what the authors call the region's three “deficits”. It is these deficits, they argue, that hold the frustrated Arabs back from reaching their potential—and allow the rest of the world both to despise and to fear a deadly combination of wealth and backwardness." Economist quoting Arab Muslim scholars WAS 4.250 19:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
"The protests also allowed governments to outflank a growing challenge from Islamic opposition movements by defending Islam. [...] The Saudis did this because they have to score against Islamic fundamentalists [meaning other Islamic fundamentalists], said Mr. Said, the Cairo political scientist. Syria made an even worse miscalculation, he added, alluding to the sense that the protest had gotten out of hand. The issue of the cartoons came at a critical time in the Muslim world because of Muslim anger over the occupation of Iraq and a sense that Muslims were under siege. Strong showings by Islamists in elections in Egypt and the victory of Hamas in the Palestinian elections had given new momentum to Islamic movements in the region, and many economies, especially those in the Persian Gulf, realized their economic power as it pertained to Denmark." New York Times article: At Mecca Meeting, Cartoon Outrage Crystallized WAS 4.250 19:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Read http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2006/February/middleeast_February156.xml§ion=middleeast second paragraph from the end gidonb 20:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
17 October, 2005. [19] Notice that they removed this one picture, just after it broke out. Everything has long been confirmed by the editor, dimplomats, newspapers, new agencies and television stations. gidonb 04:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion to correct some factual errors: You can hardly say that Belgium and France are "Denmark'southern neighbors". Look at the map. - As correctly stated in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_that_reprinted_Jyllands-Posten%27s_Muhammad_cartoons bigger country's as France, Germany, Italy and Spain printed two days earlier the cartoons than some Belgium's newspapers.
According to this source, back in December Pakisatini based group Jamaate-Islami reportedly placed a price of around €7,000, mistakenly upon the head of a "sole" cartoonist the believe responsible for all 12 cartoons. [20], Tom Spurgeon carried it, and also reports back in December that "A few observers have suggested the negative reaction to those cartoons established a precedent for more sustained and violent youth protests that followed in France and in other European countries in one of the bigger international news stories of 2005." Sadly he doesn't document the sources. [21] Hiding talk 21:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- Lot's of people in the West sees this as a religious rule imposed on non believers like Muslims would forbid to other people to eat pork or Jews impose non Jews to cover their head.
- Many Muslims see it as a provocation like entering a Church in short pants or entering a Buddhist temple with shoes on or using a religious symbol inappropriately (in the presence of worshipers).
- That's a ludicrous comparison above. The Danish editor did not enter a mosque in any country with the cartoons. I have visited mosques, synagogues and churches, and abided their rules. It is a provocation when a religious group tries to tell me how to behave in the secular World, especially when I am not of their belief or opinion.
84.190.207.92 08:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The list of "comparable incidents" covers more the insulting part, the freedom of speech question. The other part, the not obeying a religious rule, could be covered by other examples. Visiting a sacred place or a religious ceremony, it is accepted that non believers follow the rules. Are there other situations, incidents like that?
Kofi Annan has now asked that editors please stop publishing the controversial Muhammad cartoons that have caused such consternation. In my opinion, this appeal should be responded to, and we should withdraw the samples of the offending cartoons from wikipedia. Mokwella 21:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
February 2006 (UTC)
These images are important information, and add context to this informational article. It would be a mistake to remove them, as it would be detrimental to people who wish to learn more, but can't because of censorship. — TheKMan talk 22:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
That's where the conspiracy theory starts. An increasing number of people, including Ms Rice, have accused Syria and Iran of provoking things to distract attention from their problems.-- Nomen Nescio 22:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Here its is gidonb 23:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC) MODERATOR: Next question is Charlie Wolfson from CBS.
QUESTION: Madame Secretary, in the aftermath of the printing of the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, there has been outrage around the world that we've all seen. The question is: Do you think this is spontaneous as it continues? If not, who is behind it? What group or what governments might be behind it?
SECRETARY RICE: Well, let me first say that this has been a difficult period. We are strong proponents of the freedom of the press. It is one of the most fundamental freedoms of democratic development. We also believe that with press freedom comes a certain responsibility. And the United States has been a place where there has been also freedom of religion and that means that people have to exist in the same body and to respect each other's religious traditions and respect each other's religious sensibilities and that is also very important.
Now, nothing justifies the violence that has broken out in which many innocent people have been injured. Nothing justifies the burning of diplomatic facilities or threats to diplomatic facilities around the world. This is a time when everyone should urge calm and should urge that there is an atmosphere of respect and understanding.
I think that there have been a lot of governments that have spoken out about this. Note, for instance, Afghanistan and Lebanon, very important comments even by the Ayatollah Sistani about this.
But yes, there are governments that have also used this opportunity to incite violence. I don't have any doubt that given the control of the Syrian Government in Syria, given the control of the Iranian Government, which, by the way, hasn't even hidden its hand in this, that Iran and Syria have gone out of their way to inflame sentiments and to use this to their own purposes. And the world ought to call them on it. All responsible people ought to say that there is no excuse for violence. We all need to respect each other's religions. We need to respect freedom of the press. But you know, again, with freedom of the press comes responsibility as well. [22]
When did Kofi Annan say this? From Reuters Canada, I see him saying it's "inappropriate". For all I know, Mokwella is simply starting another futile argument for removing the images. Unless a Scientologist Lawyer sues us while threatening the gasoline supply of the world, interrupting cable TV transmissions in the U.S., and summoning the Wrath of God in a manner not unlike Pat Robertson, they will not be removed. -- Tokachu 00:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is the text from the United Nations Seceretary General's own website: Annan Urges Responsibility Over Caricatures -- 9 February -- At a press encounter this morning, the Secretary-General was asked about the recent publication of caricatures of the prophet Muhammad, and, while he underlined his support for freedom of speech, he also pointed to the need to exercise responsibility and judgment. "Quite honestly," he said, "I cannot understand why any editor will publish cartoons at this time which inflames and pours oil on the fire." http://www.un.org/News/ossg/sg/ From my own perspective, it appears wikipedia (collectively) is willing to sacrifice civility on the altar of 'freedom of the press'. If this is an encyclopedia, do we not have at least maintain some level of social responsibility,particularly in regard to images, as opposed to text? Please take the pictures down. Mokwella 20:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
It is unusually peaceful tonight. Have we reached the end of the "current event" periode? Is it time to pick up all the confusing little pieces and make a solid article? MX44 21:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060209/ap_on_re_eu/prophet_drawings_profits 86.52.36.140 23:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that, when this stops being current events, we should have (yet) another vote. This time giving "all" the options available and letting people decide once and for all what they want. If anyone else would like to propose what these options could be, so be it?
Options i had in mind were: large pic at top, thumb at top with high res pic, small pic at top, link at top, large pic lower down, thumb lower down with high res pic, small pic lower down, link lower down, no picture or link at all. WookMuff 22:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
You forgot another option: large high res picture of each individual cartoon, at top (maybe running down the side of the article)... Valtam 22:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, I ask that you stop accusing people of being dishonest. It is rude, and violates WP:NPA. Anyway, I was being honest, and you should reread what I wrote. I was not denying that the artist was intending to depict Muhammad; what I said was that a person with a bomb-cum-turban is not a plausible depiction of someone committing a terrorist act. More likely the cartoon is metaphorical, as such cartoons often are. It's more likely the author is alluding to the use of Islam to justify terrorist acts than that he was saying "look, this is Muhammad about to blow someone up with a bomb in his turban!" Babajobu 03:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
And that is where you are doing mistake. To have all those cartoons is pointless, because:
Should I call this answer as an honest one? You are not answering my points... Just changing course of the discussion. That is why the consensus you are talking about is not a real one. People is not answering the points they dislike, just using their dominant number to pass a regulation or a change in the article. Poll 3 here couldn't stay more than a night here? Why? Unfortunately English Wiki is acting like a Judeo-Christian Forum. I am saddened to realize that. This behaviour will effect greatly the reliability of WIki and I believe you will realize that soon. Resid Gulerdem 04:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, hang on. We just voted on this matter and decided to keep the pictures. How do you think they are suddenly going to disappear? Also, three of these picture were published in Egypt. Then how are you going to convince the folks at the English language Wikipedia to hide them or enter them through a link? Just puzzled. gidonb 04:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Moved to the bottom WookMuff 23:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
WookMuff, I would like to propose the following option for your poll:
I had a somewhat different take than the one that won, but I strongly believe that the previous outcome is binding. Add the 100 extra categories if you like, but also the one I proposed. I hope my point makes you understand that you will not have a different result two days later, even if you try to dilute the vote between complex categories. gidonb 05:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, if this article causes you undue stress, I suggest you never click any link to this article ever again. The image stays. Continuing this whining will only cost you precious time, which you could also spend on articles needing attention more desperately. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 21:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that, when this stops being current events, we should have (yet) another vote. This time giving "all" the options available and letting people decide once and for all what they want. If anyone else would like to propose what these options could be, so be it?
additionally
Once more, please don't just come and say "blah blah polls are irrelevant." Please don't comment unless you have something to add, because there are 10 other pages of places to complain on this topic. Comment here if you think i have left an option out? WookMuff 23:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with a MultiPoll: imagine every entry getting 100 votes except "remove picture" gets 101. So it seems "remove" is the popular choice. When in fact 1000 votes were for keeping the picture in some form. It can be very difficult to extract a meaningful result from that kind of a poll. That's why Poll 1 and Poll 2 were the way they were. Weregerbil 23:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
In that case I am against holding your poll. I do not see why you want to forbid me to refer to the previous poll if they are held so closely together in time. gidonb 01:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Your objection is noted. But, what do you mean about "held so closely together in time"? "My poll" as you have called it, is a theoretical poll. My proposal is that a poll be held, once things are calm, that has more than yes, no, and comments. If you want to call it the "WookMuff Poll for Peace and Harmony" then so be it ;) WookMuff 02:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Can somebody explain calmly if there is any argument, besides poll number 3, against moving the cartoons, say, next to the bulleted list that describes each? Thanks. Dmaftei 22:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I meant poll number 2. Too many polls... Dmaftei 23:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes ther are:
I couldn't see in the article that about 2500 Danish signed an online declaration stating that, 'JP should appoligize and they want peace with Muslims'. JP also puplished a new version of their appology. Will these be included? Resid Gulerdem 22:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I don't see how http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/ (Reconciliation section, at the end) is good for the article, and at the same time http://www.anotherdenmark.org/ is not. All the arguments above against the inclusion of http://www.anotherdenmark.org/ are applicable to http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/ too. Dmaftei 19:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Blue is where cartoons have been printed. Red is where violent protests have taken place, this is just preliminary, any feedback is appreciated. Hitokirishinji 23:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Ironically, I forgot to mark in Denmark... I was planning to add more colors for places that have both protests and have printed the cartoons and others. Hitokirishinji 23:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Good job, Hitokirishinji. Some cartographic comments: There are very few reds, so it is really a waste not to include all of Somalia. On the other hand, in the north you can cut the picture just north of continental Norway. There is no need to include some obscure Norwegian islands that hardly show on the map. You can also cut out some of the east, I would keep all of Pakistan in although it is white. No need to include the whole world. It would give too much white and too little detail. gidonb 23:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
What qualifies as "violent"? People killed? Buildings burned? Flags burned? Anything else? Dmaftei 00:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The cartoons were also printed in Yemen, in the Yemen Observer. The paper was closed by the government after printing the cartoons. See also Jawa Report and Yemen Times editorial.
Thank you for doing that map! Consider a rainbow scale of colours, where the more violent the event, the hotter (more red) it gets. It would give more info, and be prettier :) DanielDemaret 09:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Update on the map
This is what I have so far:
Blue - countries that printed
Sliding scale of pink to hot red - protests, depending upon intensity
Mixed - both protests and printed
Things I wanted to add:
Flame icon - buildings burned
Denmark flag icon - places where Danish goods have been boycott
Small red person icon - places where people have died
If anyone feels strongly about anything, please let me know.
--
Hitokirishinji 15:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Please let me know what you think! I have updated with a new color scheme and everything. Also anyone who is color blind let me know if you can make sense of it. Also please lets all agree on the colors and everything soon. It takes time to make this so lets come to a consensus today because once I start working on it over the weekend, it's set in stone. One more thing, this map is not complete yet. There are still quite a few countries left out so please don't assume its anywhere near done. Hitokirishinji 22:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)