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WE NEED TO FIND A BALANCE BETWEEN RIGHT OF SPEECH AND OFENSIVE MATERIAL
I think it is not easy to define the line between the right of expression and the right to respect the religion factor in cases like this. I was trying to find the balance because I know that the future generations need to see and to know the facts of the history including the bads things like this. but too, I know how the muslims feel this. always there's a way to solve the things. we can keep the cartoons for history purposes in a way that the people only can see it by 3-4 clicks away and showing the rules for view it. but dont make people angry and die just for abusive use of the free of speech.
scaglietti, NJ
I'm glad Wiki has this article. After reading a few stories in the New York TImes, I wanted to see the cartoon that has created so much fuss. I looked all over the web and most sites I found were blogs on the topic with other editorial cartoons. Thankfully Wiki had the article and I was able to become better informed on the topic.
Thank you Wikipedia
this is the only site on the web i could even find these cartoons. pretty rough considering 1/2 the world is for free speech.
They are elsewhere. You just need to know where to look. 129.171.187.135 17:28, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
When most major newspapers faced significant wrath for publishing even a part of the cartoons, Wikipedia still stands high even after having all the cartoons in its page for more than a week. People could intimidate the editors of those newspapers and force them to resign, but nothing could be done against Wikipedia. I feel, this is a wonderful attribute of Wikipedia that is on exhibition at the time of this crises. The collective responsibility combined with civilized reactions, makes this as the best exponent of Free Speech.
I'm quite disappointed by the reactions I've read in the topics below, namely those arrogant and insensitive replies to those who were requesting the cartoons to be moved to another location, or to provide a link for it (e.g. Hitokirishinji and Kyaa the Catlord in response to Yosri). The original posts are very civil and humane, whereas it seems in the responses people have picked up a very proud and arrogant attitude for keeping the pictures up no matter what the others say. Replies such as "If you are mortally offended by wikipedia and western values then there is simply no reason for you to visit the english wikipedia, or indeed, any western site." (not sure who posted that one) definitely don't go together with the concept of responsibility when disseminating information. If wikipedia is just a place where the authors demonstrate their power over MSNBC or whoever else you've depicted as weak (which in my opinion would translate as more sensitive to those different from the mainstream readers they have) then I guess all that's on the page is justified. Otherwise I would really urge you to think twice before you post. I personally do not have a clear opinion if the small size images are still offensive to people or not. But if enough people say it is, I think this is enuogh reason to take it off. Trying to explain to them how they should feel or how in your world insulting them is completely normal will only fuel anger at your own world, and you'll be wondering why these muslims react the way they do. Think about it: it's the western media (in the true sense of the word, including internet and sites such as wikipedia) who disseminate information and pictures, the western readers who read it and form their opinion, and the topic in question is about people who for the most part don't even understand english. And when the few who can read english give their input, you tell them not to visit the english sites if they're offended. Doesn't this pave the way for the isolation of a group of people who don't speak your language, and yet you keep writing about?
Also think about this: not every post is about proving one's point over the others, or for the pure goal of winning over some debate, but sometimes just about someone's input on how they feel about or experience the topic in question.
212.201.44.249 16:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Serkan
Hitokirishinji 18:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to say that these values are not 'Western' values, freedom is something valued by everyone.
What I said has nothing to do with other non-english-speakers, or the jewish state or jesus christ. taking israel off the map seems like a quite far fetched example to disprove my point. Would you agree that Hamas rules Palestine? (Freedom of speech, democracy, yeay). Even though few westeners would support hamas, you'd have to be consistant and deal just as legitimately with Hamas.
All I said was, that a few of the people whose opinion should be worth more on the matter (since i see no-one else that this directly affects) on the matter have expressed that it is an offense to their beliefs and religion. Who benefits from going against these people? I think one should really distinguish between freedom of speech in media so that the press may enlighten the rest of the public on things they should know (like some behind the scenes scandal, or whatever else you can think of, in which the media has played an important but positive role) and feedom of speech which just serves itself. Since I'm free to say what I want, I could make borderline comments about people, and claim it's freedom of speech. In any case, I don't want to rediscuss what's already been discussed many times over here. I just thought the two posts I read were quite arrogant including yours. Now that you've reworded this, I don't feel so bad about it any more. But the problem in the first place is not how I perceive things, but how the people you've responded to will feel like. I'm quite sure those muslims around the world who see defiant reactions from the western media (an example of which was also experienced here) will feel isolated and disliked. I'm just not sure who would benefit from a sarcastic, mean comment like yours (earlier). Thanks for the explanations though.
212.201.44.249 19:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Serkan
I didn't say whoever believes more strongly should have more of a say. But maybe my question would be more clear if you tried to answer who else would be more closely related to this topic than muslims. That's like discussing about the effects of parent separation on kids and not caring about what the kid has to say. Also you have still not addressed how the caricatures would benefit anyone. The damage is way too obvious and the benefits I couldn't really find on this page. A principle is only a principle if it serves a purpose.
- We are fighting for the principle of freedom of speech. - Ok, so what is your message? - That Mohammed is a terrorist.\
This sounds like a southpark line to me. And I still fail to see the point of defending this caricature.
212.201.44.249 20:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Serkan
More importantly, none of the opinions matter. If there were a cartoon that had George bush pointing a rocket launcher at an Iraqi school bus and Dick Cheney next to him saying "well, Osama could be inside after all" it would get protested, but it would get printed. The only reason it wouldn't get onto wikipedia is because there would be so little controversy over it being printed that there would be nothing to chronicle. Free speech is applied as evenly as possible. 146.163.218.221 19:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Is it how issues are resolved in wikipedia? The polls were created for a duration of time and closed without any relevant reason!!How could someone judge whenever a poll should be closed? specially that the article is still a current event, so closing it before is not a wise decision. Hence one can ask about reliability of those polls. Another thing is that we should respect religions, and showing such a picture is not the best way to calm things, and two cannot disargue that showing this picture is provoking others feelings, and that's not what wikipedia is about. the least thing is to put an external link (not internal) of the picture.
I think it would be a good idea to add the "pig person" picture to the article, under the "misinformation" heading. The article has a very low picture/text ratio as it is, and the picture would add to the understanding of the events because it is an example of how misinformation has increased the severity of the conflict. The copyright of the original photo probably belongs to AP, but given the low quality of the reproduction, it should be easy to claim "fair use". Since there seems to be concensus that the picture is of a French pig squealing contestant and not a religious personality of any kind, there should be no blasphemy issue. Still, I post the question here before doing any changes to the article. -- PeR 21:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree. It is a quite good illustration of all the misinformation in this whole affair... Claush66 22:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE from BBC: For an account of how another picture, allegedly of Muhammad portrayed as a pig but in fact a copy of a photo from a pig-squealing contest in France, played a role, see the end of this article The propaganda factor - the "pig" picture MX44 12:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I have uploaded the picture, and put it in the article. -- PeR 08:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Please remove those cartoons...It is making people more violent, this is a very sensitive issue. If freedom is the right to do anything then why do we needs law ? Article having information about this issue is sufficient enough and there is no need of images.
We as muslims strongly condemn this blasphemous act and demand to remove this cartoon from this site. Islam is a religion of peace and it gives respect to other religions therefore Islam must be respected as well.
Remove those cartoons straightaway.
Danish Hameed
I see no reason at all to remove the cartoon - whether anyone finds it offensive or not. Surely the central item of the debate should appear in the article, as there can be no more appropriate picture to explain what the 'issue' is. Robovski 01:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Please either remove the cartoon or move it down. This cartoon is very offensive to Muslims and Islam worldwide and your polls are obviously biased. By publishing the cartoon you are putting more fuel over the fire already created by this cartoon.
By publishing the cartoon, Wikipedia is acknowledging that it is not offensive to publish this cartoon. There are many Muslims in the world and we need to be more considerate about this issue.
If ever highly controversial cartoons about other religions are published, will you publish them like this? I don't think so.
For knowledge purposes, a description of cartoon is more than enough.
Frank
You need to better explain your case. You need to explain, in a secular society (and I'm sure you agree that Wikipedia, and the Internet as a whole, is secular) how an edict by a religious group, trumps freedom of the press. Several people here are doing what they can to avoid offence, and minimise the usage of the image to what is absolutely necessary. However surely given the prominence of the story, I don't see how a complete removal of the images is in anyone's benefit. Surely displaying the images in context, is better for everyone. And has already lead to some interesting results - such that the image that many were objecting to the most, that of Muhammad as a pig's face, was in reality just a poor-quality photograph from some pig-calling contest. By completely removing any images, such truths would never have become known. Besides, as far as I can tell, there is a long history of having images of Muhammad within Islam. The writing in the Koran seems quite vague to me. And interestingly quite similiar to the comments in the bible about having no idols of anyone but God - which given the number of Jesus and Mary statues doesn't seem to be taken very seriously. Nfitz 23:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Frank, we've already gone over this issue many times. This community has virtually unanimously decided to keep the cartoons in the article. Readers have a right to know what the controversy is about, and this right is more important than the right not to be offended. An encyclopedic article about cartoons needs the cartoons, whether they are offensive or not. We can't please everyone, we'll never be able to do that. Our goal is to neutrally and objectively inform and educate, and in order to do that, we need the cartoons. Wikipedia is not censored in any way, shape or form. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 23:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Let us keep the results from the first poll, but conduct a second, longer poll for about a week. We should have at least the following options:
ViewFromNowhere 00:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Frank, I would take two issues with your reasoning.
First, I would not agree that the inclusion of any image in Wikipedia implies that the image is, itself, inoffensive. Wikipedia contains many articles which show images that are found to be offensive by some large group of people. I was personally offended by a set of images that used to be associated with the entry for Domestic Violence, (they have been removed, but not for offense, but because of concerns about copyright.) Other people might be offended by the image "The Ethical Jew" at Anti-Semitism, or Serrano's famous image entitled Piss Christ--bothe clear examples of cultures and revered religious figures being treated in a way that large groups of people find deeply offensive. Ergo, publication here does not imply "inoffensive." Let me be clear, I support, save for the copyright concerns, Wikipedia's inclusion of each of those images, in each case, I believe there was an important expository value to providing information the reader needed to make sense of this controversy.
Second, I would not agree that a description of the cartoon is sufficient, although I am a bit less firm on this second point. Descriptions of the cartoons that have appeared in US newspapers have been, quite commonly, inaccurate, even in terms of specific, objective measures (e.g., how many of the twelve published cartoons contain an image of Mohammad, etc.) Worse, many of these descriptions strayed from objective descriptions of the material into interpretation without attributing the interpretation. I, and many readers of news data, find descriptions of such material suspect, and in terms of having enough information to make our own choices about what to support, wish to have access to the cartoons themselves. -- Joe Decker 03:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Please remove the cartoon from the page. Provide a link out for those who wish to see it. You are counting voting written in English, which is not relevent to a lot of Muslim. Putting it in is showing insensitivity, self centered. Free speech does not mean the right to insult others. It is not the picture which is offensive. If you put the cartoon title as Bush in Iraq, not many muslim care about it. It is the meanest of spirit behind it, publishing picture which is known will be insulting, and then ask why are you angry? Of course I am angry, and insulted. How can two civilization live together when one keep pushing and hurting physically and mentally the other. Muslim is being killed in Palestine, and Iraq. The western newspaper ignore it, or just show 1 or 2 officer under trial and claimed "Look we have punish them." Well there are thousand of other cases. This is no free speech. It's just selected coverage. Please remove the cartoon from the page. Yosri 13:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Mumtaz.siddiqui 00:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Ouch! I followed the link to this article from Wikinews:Protest against Muhammad caricatures in Paris. Yes, as I know it, Wikipedia is allowed to contain offensive content. However some readers, like myself, want to read about Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy from a neutral point of view without seeing the cartoons themselves. I might replace the image at the top of the article with a link to the "Image:" page, if I have time later. (I will not be burning embassies, wrecking cars, or vandalising wikis if Wikipedia chooses to keep the cartoons in their current position at the top of the article.) -- Kernigh 05:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
So, CNN reported that Iran has put out a request that they'll pay people to make 12 Holocaust cartoons as a counter to free speech. Let me preface this by saying, I'm Jewish. I urge Wikipedians to publish those cartoons. Yes that's right, publish them. The world has a right to see the art (distasteful as I may find the term), and it would put to rest many arguments about THESE cartoons. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 22:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone run across the image published by a Muslim group in Belgium of Hitler in bed with Ann Frank (sp?)? That one would be appropriate as well to show the type of reaction occuring. -- StuffOfInterest 23:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to point out several differences between showing the "Muhammad cartoons" and the "Jewish Cartoons" on Wikipedia.
The publishers of the cartoons in Iran do not expect any censorship in publishing the cartoons. They have nothing to risk by publishing. There is no issue of freedom of speech here or oppression from the government, when the President of Iran has called for the destruction of Israel, and publicly denied the holocaust. The newspaper itself maybe owned by a government municipality. Contrast this with the fear of relatiation and a climate of self-sensorship in Denmark.
Notice the difference between publishing anti-jewish and anti-muslim cartoons in Iran. Accountable Government 04:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Somebody asked earlier for Anti-Semitic cartoons published in response to the Muhammed contraversy. The Arab-European League is one such organization, and are responsible for the publication of the Hitler/Anne Frank cartoon that was asked for. I leave it to you wikipedian regulars to decide whether to include it or not. Richard 129.244.23.160 14:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Keep the cartoons, we have the right to show the actual cartoon on the sight and we shouldnt cave in because a few muslims want us to take it down, do wew always have to be "sensitive" to others, next thing you know, to be "sensitive", we'll start removing the Jesus page, because little itty bitty muslims don't want to look at a false messaih... BTW im an atheist communist and i hate all religion, but the muslims take the cake, the ussr would have talked some sens into these muslim fanatics.Also i know the USSR didnt have freedom of press, which i support whole heartedly, its just the USSR didnt take shit from anyone, which is needed in these times. You should scare the shit out of these little embassy buring crackpots. If the USSR had invaded Afganistan, we wouldnt be having this discussion, the Mujahadin would have been rotting in some prison in Moscow and we all be happy and free on the shackles of religion, free of the opium of the people.
How are cartoons depicting a prophet analogous to cartoons depicting the slaghter of humans? Jewish orthodoxy says the image of God shouldn't (or can not) be illustrated. Maybe some illustrations of the Jewish God are in order. Opps.. there are already childerns' book with those images.. ----
I'm not sure people have twigged what's really going on here. As I see it, the main aim of the people most vocal in stirring up the righteous indignation against the cartoons is to enhance muslim solidarity and try and mend the cracks that have opened up between westernised moderate muslims and hardliners and the Shia-Sunni divide. They have done this at the expense of doing much to close the divide which had been opening up between Europe and the US. if you think about it there are three aspects to this cartoons that muslims find offensive. (1) the fact that they show pictures of Muhammad. This is in many ways the "official reason" for finding them offensive. Is it the real underlying reason? I don't think so. The idea behind having no pics of the prophet is to stop people from worshipping him rather than Allah himself (in the same way that Protestants got sniffy (well actually it was more murder and mayhem at the height of the dispute) about Catholics starting to worship statues of Jesus, the Virgin Mary, and the saints etc). From an islamic perspective there are not syupposed to be picstures and statues of the other prophets either but we've yet to see people blowing up statues of Jesus (though of course the tallibn did just that to the Big Buddhas). (2) The association of Muhammad and Islam with terrorism. I think this is the big issue for most Western moderate muslims. They are pretty hacked off with the fact that since al Qaeda started blowing things up, westerners have tended to be a little suspicious of them. The radical firebrands who have been stirring things up however and many of the people waiving Kalashnakov's in Afghanistan and Gaza of course don't have a big problem with associating Islam with terrorism as they see it as just a brave way of the underdog fighting a technologically superior force. However they have pretended to be very annoyed to get the moderates on side. (3) there is the issue that the drawings are cartoons and cartoons are supposed to be funny so in the mind of the muslim mobs in the Middle East, Afghanisatn that means the West is laughing at themand their religious beliefs, which in their culture is something which cannot be tolerated as muslim culture tends to be dominated by the concept of Shame rather than the Guilt of the JudeaChristian West.o modern science. The publication of the anti Holocaust pictures needs to be seen as a further attempt by those looking to unify muslims against the West (in this case in particular the Iranians who of course want united muslim support re their nuclear weapon plans) and isolate the moderate western muslims. Of course they know that the reaction of Westerners will be to shrug these images off and just think that it confirms their prejudice that all muslims are fact denying, racists. The main losers of all this are the many millions of moderate European muslims who just want to work hard and get on with their lives in Europe. They will suffer increasing alienation from their host societies as it becomes clear that the radicals have instituted de facto censorship in the name of all muslims through the use of terror. The main winners will be the Iranians who figure this may make getting nuclear weapons easier, the more right wing Americans who will be able to say a massive "I told you so" to liberal Europeans, The Syrians who may be able to recover from their recent troubles in Lebanon and the Chinese who will be figuring that this will strengthens their position as customner of oil and supplier of manuafcatured goods to the Middle East. All because of a few cartoons! WadeLondon 19:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
In the rumours and misinformation section there is a report of an incident in Copenhagen which apparently never took place. How many unimportant non-events should we have? I can fabricate as many as you'd like :D MX44 00:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Here's another vote for the removal of the 'Hot Dog' story... the whole thing does sound rather spurious. Netscott 01:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Currently, we link to www.faithfreedom.org for larger versions of the images. Can we find a different link (e.g. http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698), please?
I'm not a Muslim myself, but I find www.faithfreedom.org to be hatefully inflammatory; sample quote: "Islam induces hate backed by lies. Muhammad was a terrorist by his own admission." Linking to such a site just to get a copy of images that are available elsewhere is unnecessary and unwise, in my opinion.
—Steven G. Johnson 00:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Seems reasonable ... though the ones in that brusselsjournal.com link are a bit more compressed, with the text not quite as clear. And also has other text as well. I spotted another source at one point, where you had to click through 12 slides, that appeared to be even clearer. Anyone remember that one? Nfitz 00:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree that www.faithfreedom.org is not desirable as a source, but I think that the most important thing is that we get a link to a version of the images which is as large, readable, and dependable as possible. Unfortunately, most "mainstream" outlets do not show the cartoons, but if someoen can find a mainstream link that is better than this one please feel free to replace it at will. I, however, was unable to do so as of this message. Savidan 21:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Full size (readable), in English images of the Muhammed cartoons can be viewed at, http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21127 The comic book, 'Mohammed's Believe It or Else!' can be viewed and downloaded at, http://islamcomicbook.com/ Both sites offer lots of interesting info about the reality of Islam. [User: PeterCurtis] 16:45, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Have taken out the following:
This is already explained in the paragraph, but most of all the last part is a rather strong statement which it is not substantiated by sources. I think if we cannot provide a source it is too POV to include.-- Nomen Nescio 00:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I changed
into:
The reasons are: 1 There is no logical fallacy since nobody claims all Muslims are guilty of anti-Semetism. They are merely silent on the subject. 2 Although some Muslims object to the anti-Semetism it is more than evident the general reaction by Muslims is not comparable to what they do when confronted with perceived anti-Islamic books-pictures-films-plays.
My version more accurately, and in less POV fashion, describes the mood I think.-- Nomen Nescio 01:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Give me some time and I will insert sources. Sincerely-- Nomen Nescio 03:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Delete this sentence: "They believe it is odd that cartoons are considered blasphemous when terrorist attacks in the name of Islam are not equally condemned by Muslims." --Terrorist Attacks ARE condemnded by all non-fundamentalist moslem groups, first of all, so this statement is false and secondly it is unnecessary and superfluous. The point has already been made, and an encyclopedia should not contain vague persons known as "They..." making specific judgements about any group of people be they jew christian, moslem, gay straight, black or white. Madangry 20:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In the span of last 2 hours there has been several acts of anonymous vandalism... can we go back to having this topic locked now? Netscott 01:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I only see 2 vandals in the last hour. One clearly was a child and did no damage. The other deleted content, but seems to be the usual pattern of vandalism on articles listed on the Main Page. Nothing really unusual going on here! Nfitz 02:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I propose to remove the following sections, because of very limited usefulness:
(Btw., did you know the article links to a site where you can get a "live fatwa" online? [3]
Azate 02:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
support Lotsofissues 03:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
'Comparable incidents — "freedom of speech" versus "blasphemy"' should go, too. All the events listed there are covered in detail in Freedom of speech versus blasphemy, which is clearly linked. Azate 04:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I tried cutting but I was reverted. I'll support you if you try again. Lotsofissues 04:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Support. This article really needs to be shortened. "Freedom of speeceh vs. blasphemy" is a good example of content that is out of scope for this article, but which should be linked and briefly summarized. -- PeR 07:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Support... to make this article better but text should be saved to be placed in a sub article if a relevant one arises. gren グレン ? 09:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Support. I suspect that there will be a lot of good editorial article compression if the vandalism disappears. Too much vandalism/reversal makes it hard to edit well. DanielDemaret 09:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Opposed to the removal of 8.2. A ficticious story about a financial award or a bounty on a person's life from a named organisation is very different than a mere threat from an anonymous source. Relevance pertaining to the issue is a possible incident of misinformation by the press. 86.52.36.140 15:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Opposed On the gounds that the removals have not maintained antiquate sumeries! 8.2 should stay. 8.7 should stay as it cleared up *considerable* missinformation about the real prominance of this organization. 8.9 should stay too. 8.8 can go. JeffBurdges 22:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Opposed 8.7 and 8.9 clears up considerable misunderstandings that I've encountered several places. 130.225.96.2 04:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
This section just states the primary source of the treaty... not any real legal interpretation (which is necessary) or who and how scholars have related this to the current incidents. Unless someone can do that it should be removed. Likely there should be a sentence about how this situation relates to international law and the body text should be footnoted. gren グレン ? 03:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The editorial staff of the alternative weekly New York Press walked out today, en masse, after the paper's publishers backed down from printing the Danish cartoons that have become the center of a global free-speech fight. [4]
Can someone confirm that Farid Mortazavi, graphics editor of Hamshahri, said the following:
"The Western papers printed these sacrilegious cartoons on the pretext of freedom of expression, so let's see [if] they mean what they say and print these Holocaust cartoons"
If so, wtf?! Exactly what does he hope to achieve? If they do that, wouldn't this then make the cartoons legitimate, as Muslims are doing the exact same thing to Jews, who did not write the cartoons? And why is he targetting Jews in the first place? I wasn't aware that the Jyllands-Posten chief editor was a Jew in the first place! - Ta bu shi da yu 04:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
CITATION:
World leaders rally round as crisis deepens;Cartoons Anthony Browne 677 words 7 February 2006 The Times
Lotsofissues 05:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Please -- what makes people think Wikipedia (or any western media) will be afraid to reprint their stupid cartoons? We have lots of Antisemitic imagery on Wikpedia, showcased as such, and we will showcase the holocaust cartoons as a testimony to the stupidity of Mortazavi or whoever within the minute they are available. Reporting that Iranian newspapers indulge in Holocaust denial does not amount to actual holocaust denial, just like reporting that Danish cartoonists makes fun of Muhammad does not amount to actually making fun of Muhammad. dab (ᛏ) 07:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Embarrassingly bad prose:
Criticism of Muslim reactions
"Commentators find the reactions from the Muslim community hypocritical.[3] They point to the numerous anti-Semitic and anti-Christian publications in Arab media.[4][5] One website, Filibuster Cartoons pointed out this criticism in (oddly enough) a political cartoon [6]. Furthermore, they believe it is odd that cartoons are considered blasphemous when terrorist attacks in the name of Islam are not equally condemned by Muslims.[7][8] Also, aniconism is not limited to Islam, yet violent outcry like this seems to be more frequent in Muslim society.
In addition, they think it is remarkable that in countries like Syria, where demonstration is short of impossible, riots could result in buildings being burned.[9] Considering the current Hariri investigation, this is not an inconvenient distraction for Syria.[10]
However, it is countered that this assumes that because numerous Arab countries sponsor publishing anti-Semitic material, there should be an equivocal denouncement by Muslims.[11].
In contrast, Muslims are angry that the cartoons portray the Muslim religion as promoting terrorism because of the actions of a few of its members."
Lotsofissues 05:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Much improved.
Lotsofissues 05:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I think JuanCole.com should be cited under the "opinons of the left" comment on the main page; he has lots of good analysis of the topic. He makes the case against the Right reaction in the west pretty well.
http://www.juancole.com/2006/02/more-on-hypocrisy-of-west-and.html http://www.juancole.com/2006/02/caricatures-roil-muslim-world-beirut.html
The Guardian is linking to our copy of the cartoons. Babajobu 09:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems a problem that the Guardian link is to the image page, where one has to perform several 'goal-dircted' clicks to get to the actual article. I imagine that many people who come via the Guardian link will only get to the image, and from thereon, to the discussion page. There ought to be a clear indication as to where to click to get to the article. 86.139.217.222 12:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC) Mila
This blog post "Cartoons were Published Five Months ago in Egypt" claims that the Jyllands-Posten cartoons were republished in an Egyptian newspaper in October, without any great reaction. Can anyone confirm this report? -- Avenue 10:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
An update: scans of the relevant pages of the paper are now posted on that blog [8]. Different scans of the paper have been posted in a separate blog. Admittedly both blogs have a strong POV, but this seems like enough confirmation for us to comment on it. -- Avenue 22:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The cartoons were published in the egyptian newspaper Al Fagr in October. The blog egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com showed this and suddenly changed the course of the events on Feb 8. If an egyptian newspaper published the pictures during ramadan and there were no protests... That's an indication that the later demonstations were not spontaneous but rather put in place by political and religious leaders. The blog egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com should be mentioned and be given appropriate credit.
In "Burning the Qur'an" it was earlier stated (by me) that 40 extreme right wings and neo nazists did demonstrate in Hillerød. Kyaa the Catlord have changed this to "40 people did demonstrate..." noting that the right wings were mentioned above. But in the above paragraph, it was only mentioned that the RWs spread an SMS. If their relation is not repeated below, the connection is lost.
Actually several hundred people demonstrated in Hillerød that day, all but the 40 RWs in a counter demonstration against those. Hundreds of police officers kept them apart and took more than a hundred to the police station. I think it is plain wrong to state that only 40 people demonstrated in Hillerød. But the relevant information here is that (only) 40 RIGHT WINGS demonstrated in Hillerød. I suggest this detail is added back into the article. Claush66 10:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I would love to contribute something inflammatory to this discussion page, but this is all I can come up with: If I move my mouse over the numbers that link to the footnotes, the URL that appears does not correspond correctly, e.g.: footnote 69 links to Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy#_note-65. Not very important, I know, but how to fix it? David Sneek 11:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Can editors limit the see also section to the really relevant links? Holocaust denial seems out of place. Otherwise I would suggest inserting racism, right-wing politics, anti-semetism, Islam, Holy figures in Islam, Holy figures in Christianity, the Bible, The Koran, The Thora, et cetera. You get the picture, it makes the list too long. -- Nomen Nescio 11:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Ter e nc e Ong( 恭喜发财) 11:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Can you explain what immigration has to do with this subject? -- Nomen Nescio 12:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Azate I understand you feel strongly about it but at least give some arguments. There could be links to similar incident (you remove them), but I do not understand why your links are related to this story. Please discuss. Just inserting your POV is not civil.-- Nomen Nescio 13:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
(discussion inserted from editors talk page)
This is not related to the article so please remove it. I will observe the 3RR rule, but you could at least engage in the discussion I started. Furthermore, if you insist on this, than I insist upon inserting sociology, anthropology, racism, ant-semitism. This clearly is not relevant.-- Nomen Nescio 12:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
You are incorrect: [9]and that's why you inserted it twice, which I had to correct. [10] The timeline is superfluous.
Let's try and stay calm. I am only asking you to discuss. That is all.-- Nomen Nescio 13:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Please, first look at the before repeating that accusation. It clearly shows it is present after my edit, and there was a second entry of it which I removed along with other duplicate edits.-- Nomen Nescio 14:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I draw your attention to this 4 part article (below) that goes into great detail about why these cartoons are highly offensive and promote racism.
By publishing these cartoons, Wikipedia is promoting racism. People who polled in your polls are obviously not sensitive to the feelings of Muslims worldwide. I believe its a highly biased poll.
The controversy has been going on since Sept 30 and all you did was a 3-day poll? That's not very fair. I didn't get to vote in that poll and hundreds of thousands of other people also didn't know that there was a poll going on.
Governments of many countries, including the US have come out and officially said that these cartoons are offensive.
A highcourt in Johannesberg, South Africa ruled to stop Sunday Times from publishing these cartoons.
Please take these images down ASAP or I feel Muslims will have no choice but to take the matter to the court of law.
Wikipedia is benefitting from promoting racism and hate against Muslims and Islam, something that is not very Wikipedian.
And to those Jews and Christians who say go publish cartoons about their religion, obviously don't respect their religion as much.
The issue is racism: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=8267 Freedom to Spread Hate? http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=8243 Cartoon caricatures were designed to offend http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=8274
Please remove the images immediately.
Frank --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frankmash ( talk • contribs) . Scaife 11:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Which means you are promoting racism. The image itself promotes racism, don't you get it? It tells the world that Islam is the source of terrorism and to get rid of terrorism, they should get rid of Islam.
Frank
In short: no way, Frank, no matter how many times you keep whining about this. Yes, this image may be offensive to some. So be it. We're here to inform, we're not here not to offend. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 22:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion its totally stupid to have a poll about minority rights. Do you think that a poll in nazi germany would have saved the jews???? Raphael 22:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Once again the article's getting outrageously long, and once again I'm the one who has to do the dirty work. I'm moving the "Opinions" section to a new article, Opinions on the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy. People would have to move the appropriate references and talks to the subarticle. Aucaman Talk 12:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
We reinsert the opinions and exchange it for rumours!!!-- Nomen Nescio 13:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Also, there are a lot of Wikipedians working on this article alone. I'm trying to spread the work into several articles. The discussion section for this article has had to be archived almost on a daily basis. Again, highly inefficient. You're free to move the Rumors section, but taking back the Opinions would be a mistake. The section used to be short, but people read stuff online and start copy-pasting at random. If this continues I doubt we would ever be able to summarize it. By giving it it's own article, the management becomes easier (look at the "international reactions" article for example). Aucaman Talk 13:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The point is, all the space you want can be found by moving rumours, shortening timeline and reprinting. However, this apparently is beyond debate. As to commentary, see Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles and WP:NPOV.-- Nomen Nescio 14:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Could it be considered anti-Islamic to call all Muslims part of the same race? What would be the term for this? I'm not really sure... Valtam 15:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The Opinions section is horribly unencyclopedic in tone, and should be completely rewritten. For instance, an encyclopedia should never use the word "you" (outside of an actual quote, of course). I'm not quite feeling up to rewriting it myself right now; is anyone interested in doing this? If not, I'll do it tomorrow. -- Ashenai 16:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that it is wrong to move out "rumours" and "opinions". They should be cleaned up and kept in the article. The main criteria for keeping things in the article should be wheter they are directly related to the event. The rumors probably had an important effect on the outcome of the events.
"Danish Journalistic traditions", however is an article that would stand well on its own. None of it had any direct consecuence on the course of events here. Making it a separate article and linking to it from both this one and Politics of Denmark would improve the quality of both articles.
Opinions cleanup: Basically, opinions should only be included if expressed by world leaders or people directly relevant to the conflict. What "some muslims" or "many people in denmark" may or may not feel is completely unencyclopaedic unless an opinion poll is quoted. Anything not related to the cartoons controversy is not for this article.
Also: Statements that the queen of Denmark made in April would only be relevant if those statements can be shown to have directly influenced the course of events in September when the cartoons were published. (Such statements may be relevant to an article on the queen herself or on "Islam in denmark" or similar. Personally, however, I think the queens statement only sounds racist after translation into English, not in Danish as she said it.) -- PeR 19:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, the cartoons were published in a conservative mainstream newspaper in the context of what many Muslims perceive to be a pervasive bias against them in many western countries, exemplified by the French law on religious symbols in schools, the short film Submission, and the 2005 Sydney race riots.
This lacks a citation. Also, the listing of the 2005 Sydney race riots may be giving undue prominence to it. There are countless conflicts between Muslims and Christians that were more violent than the Sydney riots, and religion was largely a marker between "us" and "them" in this case. Then again, I'm from Sydney, so maybe I'm biased. Andjam 12:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Well done, Wikipedia. It must be a near full time job undoing all the vandalism. 82.26.173.144 13:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
This is getting tedious. Could someone please semi-protect this page for now? -- Ashenai 15:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I tossed his ip on the vandal list. Of course, he stops now.... Kyaa the Catlord 15:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I will then shut down every server and much more: e.g. the whole (AS)Autonomous System if wikipedia would come under a serious attack. Take it easy ... .
Hmmm... our happy little vandal dude is now using sock puppets. I'm thinking we need a temporary IP-ban, or semi-protect. Anyone willing and able to do the honors? -- Ashenai 19:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
What happened to the protest and boycot photos that were in the article? The overall article looks rather stale now with just the cartoon image. -- StuffOfInterest 16:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand what the big deal is about these cartoons. Muslims should be more tolerant about things just like christians and jews are. This is the 21st century, you cannot force the entire world to see things the way you do, or the ways you may deem as fit. It is very childish, grow up and civilize. Im sorry but its true. Starting riots and burning an embassy doesnt exactly help show a positive image for islam, especially when the entire western world is getting really sick of islam to begin with.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.68.168.169 ( talk • contribs) .
Just like christians and jews are? I don't think you live on the same planet I do. Madangry 20:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The following added text by Azate from the Opinions section doesn't seem to add anything... seems more like personal questions than questions being posed by parties significantly involved in this controversy...the sources for these questions should be cited.
Netscott 17:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
How about the important question: "Why Wayne Rooney?" Its been bugging me for the past couple of days. Damn vandals. Kyaa the Catlord 20:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
A number of ppl have challenged me in this discussion & on my talk-page to find any real "taboo" that exists in western countries / or show an example where freedom of speech is limited in the west - I would agree with you that Europe is very liberal and that such an example is difficult to find. However one can construct a scenario quite easily (note that this is different from giving an example though) where a picture would be so offensive that it would be "taboo" to put it on wikipedia or publish it in a newspaper - quite equivalent to what Muslims feel about the Muhammad (pbuh) cartoons.
Consider for example a pornographic picture (e.g. involving ... animals? an extreme close-up? violence? blood?) that would be so offensive to most ppl that you wouldn't dare put it on wikipedia. If you can imagine such a picture then you'll realise how some Muslims feel when they see the controversial cartoons on this page. Less drastic might be a movie of vivisection or extreme animal cruelty - such a movie could also be so offensive that it couldn't be put on wikipedia. Similarly a picture of a human with gross disability or horrific disfigurement. Finally consider this scenario: a computer-generated, photo-realistic picture or movie (i.e. no real humans involved, thus no suffering, etc.) of child abuse. Equally one can easily imagine that this could be so extremely offensive to the general public that it would never be put on wikipedia, not matter what the surrounding circumstance or controversy.
Imagine seeing one of those "taboo" pictures / images described above to help understand how some Muslims feel about the Muhammad (pbuh) cartoons and why we try to delete them. Someone who doesn't believe that animals are sentient might not have a problem with movies of animal cruelty (in fact many indeginous ppl are extremely cruel to animals). A gynaecologist might have no problem with extreme close-ups of sexual organs. All depends on the the context Rajab 18:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Images of children having sex is treated in the modern western countries the way blasphemy is treated in Islamic countries. Even wikipedia shows this bias. Child sexual abuse covers behavior that is not considered "abuse" in other cultures [11]. We don't have a photo of a child being sexually abused in that article. Not even a drawing of such an event, even though such a drawing is legal under US law. WAS 4.250 19:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I take back everything - those japanese drawings that baba pointed out are in fact even worse than the drawings we're currently discussion. Please consider removing those drawings & the drawings in this article Rajab 21:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Then what about the conspicuous absence of images of the subject matter of Goatse.cx? — Simetrical ( talk • contribs) 00:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
This article needs at least a rough estimate of the people killed, buildings burt, and other property destroyed. This is essential information in understanding the scope of the controversy. We don't need to go into political commentary (x deaths in protests from cartoons that stated Islam promotes violence.) - just a basic statment of facts. - Mr.Logic 18:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Where did this section go? ( Cloud02 20:30, 8 February 2006 (UTC))
Understood. Well it's linked on a couple of other articles (Henry Jackson Society & Multiculturalism); but I guess any blog is only notable because of its content – so you can decide.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4692518.stm
Is Wikipedia prepared? I've no doubt some attempts will be made to sabotage the article, over and above common vandalism. -- Tatty 21:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Why dyou feel the need to remove the cartoons? The article is just explaining what is happening, its not saying, "Oh, Muslims suck, who cares what they believe in, oh, and here are some cartoons!" It is just providing the facts (neutrally) for the people to know. Oh, and if there already isn't, I think I am going to make the Japanese article for this, does anyone object? Bert (^_^)
So sorry, I see that there is a Japanese article for it....I may add to it then. And (just wondering) would the Arabic (if there is one) Wikipedia have this article, but be more leaniant to how its so "Horrible"? And here is what Muslims were chanting (as well as having signs with this written) in London (Quote from Chicago Tribune): "Massacre those who insult Islam" "Freedom of expression go to Hell" and "Europe, you will pay, Fantastic 4 are on their way" The Fantastic 4 refers to the 4 London suicide bombers (who were Muslim) that killed 52 people in July. I think that that is WRONG, and I highly doubt that Muhammad would like his followers to claim innocent lives. Bert (^_^)
Would it be relevant to make a reference to this concept in the "see also" section? 86.52.36.140 21:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
People should be aware that there are evil people from danish tabloids here seeking angles to new stories.
Allegedly Denmark has about 40 cartoonists affiliated to the union of editorial cartoonists. After Kåre Bluitgen failed to find willing illustrators for his book, Jyllands-Posten sent out 40 invitations, but only got 12 responses, with 4 belonging to J-P's own staff. I think it would be interesting to know which cartoons were drawn by the J-P cartoonists, since these 4 cartoons probably are among the most anti-islamic of them. Needs some fact-checking, though. 惑乱 分からん 22:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Why do almost all the other major Wikipedias refuse to publish the cartoons? -- Lotsofissues 22:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
They're all un-American and so they don't have our same ideals of freedom of speech. -- Cyde Weys 22:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I have read about 20 others to check that statement. Some have the pictures, some link to them. Some seem lazy, some seem to have stricter rules of copyright/fair use. And some of the articles have them, then they don't, then they are back, and so forth. We are not the only site language version with Edit Wars. I don't agree with "almost all refuse". DanielDemaret 22:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Just an idea, but if you want to publish the cartoons on the Danish version, why not call up the paper and ask them if you can publish the cartoons on Wikipedia? I'm sure they would grant you the rights, seing as other papers around the world have reprinted them. Accountable Government 00:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Few other wikipedias are as comprehensive as English wikipedia, especially when it comes to images. For example, look at the article on World War II: tons of images. Look at its counterparts in other languages, some of them featured: very few images. Savidan 02:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
WE NEED TO FIND A BALANCE BETWEEN RIGHT OF SPEECH AND OFENSIVE MATERIAL
I think it is not easy to define the line between the right of expression and the right to respect the religion factor in cases like this. I was trying to find the balance because I know that the future generations need to see and to know the facts of the history including the bads things like this. but too, I know how the muslims feel this. always there's a way to solve the things. we can keep the cartoons for history purposes in a way that the people only can see it by 3-4 clicks away and showing the rules for view it. but dont make people angry and die just for abusive use of the free of speech.
scaglietti, NJ
I'm glad Wiki has this article. After reading a few stories in the New York TImes, I wanted to see the cartoon that has created so much fuss. I looked all over the web and most sites I found were blogs on the topic with other editorial cartoons. Thankfully Wiki had the article and I was able to become better informed on the topic.
Thank you Wikipedia
this is the only site on the web i could even find these cartoons. pretty rough considering 1/2 the world is for free speech.
They are elsewhere. You just need to know where to look. 129.171.187.135 17:28, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
When most major newspapers faced significant wrath for publishing even a part of the cartoons, Wikipedia still stands high even after having all the cartoons in its page for more than a week. People could intimidate the editors of those newspapers and force them to resign, but nothing could be done against Wikipedia. I feel, this is a wonderful attribute of Wikipedia that is on exhibition at the time of this crises. The collective responsibility combined with civilized reactions, makes this as the best exponent of Free Speech.
I'm quite disappointed by the reactions I've read in the topics below, namely those arrogant and insensitive replies to those who were requesting the cartoons to be moved to another location, or to provide a link for it (e.g. Hitokirishinji and Kyaa the Catlord in response to Yosri). The original posts are very civil and humane, whereas it seems in the responses people have picked up a very proud and arrogant attitude for keeping the pictures up no matter what the others say. Replies such as "If you are mortally offended by wikipedia and western values then there is simply no reason for you to visit the english wikipedia, or indeed, any western site." (not sure who posted that one) definitely don't go together with the concept of responsibility when disseminating information. If wikipedia is just a place where the authors demonstrate their power over MSNBC or whoever else you've depicted as weak (which in my opinion would translate as more sensitive to those different from the mainstream readers they have) then I guess all that's on the page is justified. Otherwise I would really urge you to think twice before you post. I personally do not have a clear opinion if the small size images are still offensive to people or not. But if enough people say it is, I think this is enuogh reason to take it off. Trying to explain to them how they should feel or how in your world insulting them is completely normal will only fuel anger at your own world, and you'll be wondering why these muslims react the way they do. Think about it: it's the western media (in the true sense of the word, including internet and sites such as wikipedia) who disseminate information and pictures, the western readers who read it and form their opinion, and the topic in question is about people who for the most part don't even understand english. And when the few who can read english give their input, you tell them not to visit the english sites if they're offended. Doesn't this pave the way for the isolation of a group of people who don't speak your language, and yet you keep writing about?
Also think about this: not every post is about proving one's point over the others, or for the pure goal of winning over some debate, but sometimes just about someone's input on how they feel about or experience the topic in question.
212.201.44.249 16:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Serkan
Hitokirishinji 18:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to say that these values are not 'Western' values, freedom is something valued by everyone.
What I said has nothing to do with other non-english-speakers, or the jewish state or jesus christ. taking israel off the map seems like a quite far fetched example to disprove my point. Would you agree that Hamas rules Palestine? (Freedom of speech, democracy, yeay). Even though few westeners would support hamas, you'd have to be consistant and deal just as legitimately with Hamas.
All I said was, that a few of the people whose opinion should be worth more on the matter (since i see no-one else that this directly affects) on the matter have expressed that it is an offense to their beliefs and religion. Who benefits from going against these people? I think one should really distinguish between freedom of speech in media so that the press may enlighten the rest of the public on things they should know (like some behind the scenes scandal, or whatever else you can think of, in which the media has played an important but positive role) and feedom of speech which just serves itself. Since I'm free to say what I want, I could make borderline comments about people, and claim it's freedom of speech. In any case, I don't want to rediscuss what's already been discussed many times over here. I just thought the two posts I read were quite arrogant including yours. Now that you've reworded this, I don't feel so bad about it any more. But the problem in the first place is not how I perceive things, but how the people you've responded to will feel like. I'm quite sure those muslims around the world who see defiant reactions from the western media (an example of which was also experienced here) will feel isolated and disliked. I'm just not sure who would benefit from a sarcastic, mean comment like yours (earlier). Thanks for the explanations though.
212.201.44.249 19:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Serkan
I didn't say whoever believes more strongly should have more of a say. But maybe my question would be more clear if you tried to answer who else would be more closely related to this topic than muslims. That's like discussing about the effects of parent separation on kids and not caring about what the kid has to say. Also you have still not addressed how the caricatures would benefit anyone. The damage is way too obvious and the benefits I couldn't really find on this page. A principle is only a principle if it serves a purpose.
- We are fighting for the principle of freedom of speech. - Ok, so what is your message? - That Mohammed is a terrorist.\
This sounds like a southpark line to me. And I still fail to see the point of defending this caricature.
212.201.44.249 20:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Serkan
More importantly, none of the opinions matter. If there were a cartoon that had George bush pointing a rocket launcher at an Iraqi school bus and Dick Cheney next to him saying "well, Osama could be inside after all" it would get protested, but it would get printed. The only reason it wouldn't get onto wikipedia is because there would be so little controversy over it being printed that there would be nothing to chronicle. Free speech is applied as evenly as possible. 146.163.218.221 19:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Is it how issues are resolved in wikipedia? The polls were created for a duration of time and closed without any relevant reason!!How could someone judge whenever a poll should be closed? specially that the article is still a current event, so closing it before is not a wise decision. Hence one can ask about reliability of those polls. Another thing is that we should respect religions, and showing such a picture is not the best way to calm things, and two cannot disargue that showing this picture is provoking others feelings, and that's not what wikipedia is about. the least thing is to put an external link (not internal) of the picture.
I think it would be a good idea to add the "pig person" picture to the article, under the "misinformation" heading. The article has a very low picture/text ratio as it is, and the picture would add to the understanding of the events because it is an example of how misinformation has increased the severity of the conflict. The copyright of the original photo probably belongs to AP, but given the low quality of the reproduction, it should be easy to claim "fair use". Since there seems to be concensus that the picture is of a French pig squealing contestant and not a religious personality of any kind, there should be no blasphemy issue. Still, I post the question here before doing any changes to the article. -- PeR 21:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree. It is a quite good illustration of all the misinformation in this whole affair... Claush66 22:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE from BBC: For an account of how another picture, allegedly of Muhammad portrayed as a pig but in fact a copy of a photo from a pig-squealing contest in France, played a role, see the end of this article The propaganda factor - the "pig" picture MX44 12:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I have uploaded the picture, and put it in the article. -- PeR 08:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Please remove those cartoons...It is making people more violent, this is a very sensitive issue. If freedom is the right to do anything then why do we needs law ? Article having information about this issue is sufficient enough and there is no need of images.
We as muslims strongly condemn this blasphemous act and demand to remove this cartoon from this site. Islam is a religion of peace and it gives respect to other religions therefore Islam must be respected as well.
Remove those cartoons straightaway.
Danish Hameed
I see no reason at all to remove the cartoon - whether anyone finds it offensive or not. Surely the central item of the debate should appear in the article, as there can be no more appropriate picture to explain what the 'issue' is. Robovski 01:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Please either remove the cartoon or move it down. This cartoon is very offensive to Muslims and Islam worldwide and your polls are obviously biased. By publishing the cartoon you are putting more fuel over the fire already created by this cartoon.
By publishing the cartoon, Wikipedia is acknowledging that it is not offensive to publish this cartoon. There are many Muslims in the world and we need to be more considerate about this issue.
If ever highly controversial cartoons about other religions are published, will you publish them like this? I don't think so.
For knowledge purposes, a description of cartoon is more than enough.
Frank
You need to better explain your case. You need to explain, in a secular society (and I'm sure you agree that Wikipedia, and the Internet as a whole, is secular) how an edict by a religious group, trumps freedom of the press. Several people here are doing what they can to avoid offence, and minimise the usage of the image to what is absolutely necessary. However surely given the prominence of the story, I don't see how a complete removal of the images is in anyone's benefit. Surely displaying the images in context, is better for everyone. And has already lead to some interesting results - such that the image that many were objecting to the most, that of Muhammad as a pig's face, was in reality just a poor-quality photograph from some pig-calling contest. By completely removing any images, such truths would never have become known. Besides, as far as I can tell, there is a long history of having images of Muhammad within Islam. The writing in the Koran seems quite vague to me. And interestingly quite similiar to the comments in the bible about having no idols of anyone but God - which given the number of Jesus and Mary statues doesn't seem to be taken very seriously. Nfitz 23:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Frank, we've already gone over this issue many times. This community has virtually unanimously decided to keep the cartoons in the article. Readers have a right to know what the controversy is about, and this right is more important than the right not to be offended. An encyclopedic article about cartoons needs the cartoons, whether they are offensive or not. We can't please everyone, we'll never be able to do that. Our goal is to neutrally and objectively inform and educate, and in order to do that, we need the cartoons. Wikipedia is not censored in any way, shape or form. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 23:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Let us keep the results from the first poll, but conduct a second, longer poll for about a week. We should have at least the following options:
ViewFromNowhere 00:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Frank, I would take two issues with your reasoning.
First, I would not agree that the inclusion of any image in Wikipedia implies that the image is, itself, inoffensive. Wikipedia contains many articles which show images that are found to be offensive by some large group of people. I was personally offended by a set of images that used to be associated with the entry for Domestic Violence, (they have been removed, but not for offense, but because of concerns about copyright.) Other people might be offended by the image "The Ethical Jew" at Anti-Semitism, or Serrano's famous image entitled Piss Christ--bothe clear examples of cultures and revered religious figures being treated in a way that large groups of people find deeply offensive. Ergo, publication here does not imply "inoffensive." Let me be clear, I support, save for the copyright concerns, Wikipedia's inclusion of each of those images, in each case, I believe there was an important expository value to providing information the reader needed to make sense of this controversy.
Second, I would not agree that a description of the cartoon is sufficient, although I am a bit less firm on this second point. Descriptions of the cartoons that have appeared in US newspapers have been, quite commonly, inaccurate, even in terms of specific, objective measures (e.g., how many of the twelve published cartoons contain an image of Mohammad, etc.) Worse, many of these descriptions strayed from objective descriptions of the material into interpretation without attributing the interpretation. I, and many readers of news data, find descriptions of such material suspect, and in terms of having enough information to make our own choices about what to support, wish to have access to the cartoons themselves. -- Joe Decker 03:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Please remove the cartoon from the page. Provide a link out for those who wish to see it. You are counting voting written in English, which is not relevent to a lot of Muslim. Putting it in is showing insensitivity, self centered. Free speech does not mean the right to insult others. It is not the picture which is offensive. If you put the cartoon title as Bush in Iraq, not many muslim care about it. It is the meanest of spirit behind it, publishing picture which is known will be insulting, and then ask why are you angry? Of course I am angry, and insulted. How can two civilization live together when one keep pushing and hurting physically and mentally the other. Muslim is being killed in Palestine, and Iraq. The western newspaper ignore it, or just show 1 or 2 officer under trial and claimed "Look we have punish them." Well there are thousand of other cases. This is no free speech. It's just selected coverage. Please remove the cartoon from the page. Yosri 13:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Mumtaz.siddiqui 00:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Ouch! I followed the link to this article from Wikinews:Protest against Muhammad caricatures in Paris. Yes, as I know it, Wikipedia is allowed to contain offensive content. However some readers, like myself, want to read about Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy from a neutral point of view without seeing the cartoons themselves. I might replace the image at the top of the article with a link to the "Image:" page, if I have time later. (I will not be burning embassies, wrecking cars, or vandalising wikis if Wikipedia chooses to keep the cartoons in their current position at the top of the article.) -- Kernigh 05:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
So, CNN reported that Iran has put out a request that they'll pay people to make 12 Holocaust cartoons as a counter to free speech. Let me preface this by saying, I'm Jewish. I urge Wikipedians to publish those cartoons. Yes that's right, publish them. The world has a right to see the art (distasteful as I may find the term), and it would put to rest many arguments about THESE cartoons. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 22:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone run across the image published by a Muslim group in Belgium of Hitler in bed with Ann Frank (sp?)? That one would be appropriate as well to show the type of reaction occuring. -- StuffOfInterest 23:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to point out several differences between showing the "Muhammad cartoons" and the "Jewish Cartoons" on Wikipedia.
The publishers of the cartoons in Iran do not expect any censorship in publishing the cartoons. They have nothing to risk by publishing. There is no issue of freedom of speech here or oppression from the government, when the President of Iran has called for the destruction of Israel, and publicly denied the holocaust. The newspaper itself maybe owned by a government municipality. Contrast this with the fear of relatiation and a climate of self-sensorship in Denmark.
Notice the difference between publishing anti-jewish and anti-muslim cartoons in Iran. Accountable Government 04:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Somebody asked earlier for Anti-Semitic cartoons published in response to the Muhammed contraversy. The Arab-European League is one such organization, and are responsible for the publication of the Hitler/Anne Frank cartoon that was asked for. I leave it to you wikipedian regulars to decide whether to include it or not. Richard 129.244.23.160 14:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Keep the cartoons, we have the right to show the actual cartoon on the sight and we shouldnt cave in because a few muslims want us to take it down, do wew always have to be "sensitive" to others, next thing you know, to be "sensitive", we'll start removing the Jesus page, because little itty bitty muslims don't want to look at a false messaih... BTW im an atheist communist and i hate all religion, but the muslims take the cake, the ussr would have talked some sens into these muslim fanatics.Also i know the USSR didnt have freedom of press, which i support whole heartedly, its just the USSR didnt take shit from anyone, which is needed in these times. You should scare the shit out of these little embassy buring crackpots. If the USSR had invaded Afganistan, we wouldnt be having this discussion, the Mujahadin would have been rotting in some prison in Moscow and we all be happy and free on the shackles of religion, free of the opium of the people.
How are cartoons depicting a prophet analogous to cartoons depicting the slaghter of humans? Jewish orthodoxy says the image of God shouldn't (or can not) be illustrated. Maybe some illustrations of the Jewish God are in order. Opps.. there are already childerns' book with those images.. ----
I'm not sure people have twigged what's really going on here. As I see it, the main aim of the people most vocal in stirring up the righteous indignation against the cartoons is to enhance muslim solidarity and try and mend the cracks that have opened up between westernised moderate muslims and hardliners and the Shia-Sunni divide. They have done this at the expense of doing much to close the divide which had been opening up between Europe and the US. if you think about it there are three aspects to this cartoons that muslims find offensive. (1) the fact that they show pictures of Muhammad. This is in many ways the "official reason" for finding them offensive. Is it the real underlying reason? I don't think so. The idea behind having no pics of the prophet is to stop people from worshipping him rather than Allah himself (in the same way that Protestants got sniffy (well actually it was more murder and mayhem at the height of the dispute) about Catholics starting to worship statues of Jesus, the Virgin Mary, and the saints etc). From an islamic perspective there are not syupposed to be picstures and statues of the other prophets either but we've yet to see people blowing up statues of Jesus (though of course the tallibn did just that to the Big Buddhas). (2) The association of Muhammad and Islam with terrorism. I think this is the big issue for most Western moderate muslims. They are pretty hacked off with the fact that since al Qaeda started blowing things up, westerners have tended to be a little suspicious of them. The radical firebrands who have been stirring things up however and many of the people waiving Kalashnakov's in Afghanistan and Gaza of course don't have a big problem with associating Islam with terrorism as they see it as just a brave way of the underdog fighting a technologically superior force. However they have pretended to be very annoyed to get the moderates on side. (3) there is the issue that the drawings are cartoons and cartoons are supposed to be funny so in the mind of the muslim mobs in the Middle East, Afghanisatn that means the West is laughing at themand their religious beliefs, which in their culture is something which cannot be tolerated as muslim culture tends to be dominated by the concept of Shame rather than the Guilt of the JudeaChristian West.o modern science. The publication of the anti Holocaust pictures needs to be seen as a further attempt by those looking to unify muslims against the West (in this case in particular the Iranians who of course want united muslim support re their nuclear weapon plans) and isolate the moderate western muslims. Of course they know that the reaction of Westerners will be to shrug these images off and just think that it confirms their prejudice that all muslims are fact denying, racists. The main losers of all this are the many millions of moderate European muslims who just want to work hard and get on with their lives in Europe. They will suffer increasing alienation from their host societies as it becomes clear that the radicals have instituted de facto censorship in the name of all muslims through the use of terror. The main winners will be the Iranians who figure this may make getting nuclear weapons easier, the more right wing Americans who will be able to say a massive "I told you so" to liberal Europeans, The Syrians who may be able to recover from their recent troubles in Lebanon and the Chinese who will be figuring that this will strengthens their position as customner of oil and supplier of manuafcatured goods to the Middle East. All because of a few cartoons! WadeLondon 19:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
In the rumours and misinformation section there is a report of an incident in Copenhagen which apparently never took place. How many unimportant non-events should we have? I can fabricate as many as you'd like :D MX44 00:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Here's another vote for the removal of the 'Hot Dog' story... the whole thing does sound rather spurious. Netscott 01:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Currently, we link to www.faithfreedom.org for larger versions of the images. Can we find a different link (e.g. http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698), please?
I'm not a Muslim myself, but I find www.faithfreedom.org to be hatefully inflammatory; sample quote: "Islam induces hate backed by lies. Muhammad was a terrorist by his own admission." Linking to such a site just to get a copy of images that are available elsewhere is unnecessary and unwise, in my opinion.
—Steven G. Johnson 00:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Seems reasonable ... though the ones in that brusselsjournal.com link are a bit more compressed, with the text not quite as clear. And also has other text as well. I spotted another source at one point, where you had to click through 12 slides, that appeared to be even clearer. Anyone remember that one? Nfitz 00:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree that www.faithfreedom.org is not desirable as a source, but I think that the most important thing is that we get a link to a version of the images which is as large, readable, and dependable as possible. Unfortunately, most "mainstream" outlets do not show the cartoons, but if someoen can find a mainstream link that is better than this one please feel free to replace it at will. I, however, was unable to do so as of this message. Savidan 21:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Full size (readable), in English images of the Muhammed cartoons can be viewed at, http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21127 The comic book, 'Mohammed's Believe It or Else!' can be viewed and downloaded at, http://islamcomicbook.com/ Both sites offer lots of interesting info about the reality of Islam. [User: PeterCurtis] 16:45, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Have taken out the following:
This is already explained in the paragraph, but most of all the last part is a rather strong statement which it is not substantiated by sources. I think if we cannot provide a source it is too POV to include.-- Nomen Nescio 00:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I changed
into:
The reasons are: 1 There is no logical fallacy since nobody claims all Muslims are guilty of anti-Semetism. They are merely silent on the subject. 2 Although some Muslims object to the anti-Semetism it is more than evident the general reaction by Muslims is not comparable to what they do when confronted with perceived anti-Islamic books-pictures-films-plays.
My version more accurately, and in less POV fashion, describes the mood I think.-- Nomen Nescio 01:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Give me some time and I will insert sources. Sincerely-- Nomen Nescio 03:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Delete this sentence: "They believe it is odd that cartoons are considered blasphemous when terrorist attacks in the name of Islam are not equally condemned by Muslims." --Terrorist Attacks ARE condemnded by all non-fundamentalist moslem groups, first of all, so this statement is false and secondly it is unnecessary and superfluous. The point has already been made, and an encyclopedia should not contain vague persons known as "They..." making specific judgements about any group of people be they jew christian, moslem, gay straight, black or white. Madangry 20:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In the span of last 2 hours there has been several acts of anonymous vandalism... can we go back to having this topic locked now? Netscott 01:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I only see 2 vandals in the last hour. One clearly was a child and did no damage. The other deleted content, but seems to be the usual pattern of vandalism on articles listed on the Main Page. Nothing really unusual going on here! Nfitz 02:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I propose to remove the following sections, because of very limited usefulness:
(Btw., did you know the article links to a site where you can get a "live fatwa" online? [3]
Azate 02:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
support Lotsofissues 03:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
'Comparable incidents — "freedom of speech" versus "blasphemy"' should go, too. All the events listed there are covered in detail in Freedom of speech versus blasphemy, which is clearly linked. Azate 04:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I tried cutting but I was reverted. I'll support you if you try again. Lotsofissues 04:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Support. This article really needs to be shortened. "Freedom of speeceh vs. blasphemy" is a good example of content that is out of scope for this article, but which should be linked and briefly summarized. -- PeR 07:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Support... to make this article better but text should be saved to be placed in a sub article if a relevant one arises. gren グレン ? 09:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Support. I suspect that there will be a lot of good editorial article compression if the vandalism disappears. Too much vandalism/reversal makes it hard to edit well. DanielDemaret 09:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Opposed to the removal of 8.2. A ficticious story about a financial award or a bounty on a person's life from a named organisation is very different than a mere threat from an anonymous source. Relevance pertaining to the issue is a possible incident of misinformation by the press. 86.52.36.140 15:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Opposed On the gounds that the removals have not maintained antiquate sumeries! 8.2 should stay. 8.7 should stay as it cleared up *considerable* missinformation about the real prominance of this organization. 8.9 should stay too. 8.8 can go. JeffBurdges 22:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Opposed 8.7 and 8.9 clears up considerable misunderstandings that I've encountered several places. 130.225.96.2 04:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
This section just states the primary source of the treaty... not any real legal interpretation (which is necessary) or who and how scholars have related this to the current incidents. Unless someone can do that it should be removed. Likely there should be a sentence about how this situation relates to international law and the body text should be footnoted. gren グレン ? 03:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The editorial staff of the alternative weekly New York Press walked out today, en masse, after the paper's publishers backed down from printing the Danish cartoons that have become the center of a global free-speech fight. [4]
Can someone confirm that Farid Mortazavi, graphics editor of Hamshahri, said the following:
"The Western papers printed these sacrilegious cartoons on the pretext of freedom of expression, so let's see [if] they mean what they say and print these Holocaust cartoons"
If so, wtf?! Exactly what does he hope to achieve? If they do that, wouldn't this then make the cartoons legitimate, as Muslims are doing the exact same thing to Jews, who did not write the cartoons? And why is he targetting Jews in the first place? I wasn't aware that the Jyllands-Posten chief editor was a Jew in the first place! - Ta bu shi da yu 04:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
CITATION:
World leaders rally round as crisis deepens;Cartoons Anthony Browne 677 words 7 February 2006 The Times
Lotsofissues 05:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Please -- what makes people think Wikipedia (or any western media) will be afraid to reprint their stupid cartoons? We have lots of Antisemitic imagery on Wikpedia, showcased as such, and we will showcase the holocaust cartoons as a testimony to the stupidity of Mortazavi or whoever within the minute they are available. Reporting that Iranian newspapers indulge in Holocaust denial does not amount to actual holocaust denial, just like reporting that Danish cartoonists makes fun of Muhammad does not amount to actually making fun of Muhammad. dab (ᛏ) 07:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Embarrassingly bad prose:
Criticism of Muslim reactions
"Commentators find the reactions from the Muslim community hypocritical.[3] They point to the numerous anti-Semitic and anti-Christian publications in Arab media.[4][5] One website, Filibuster Cartoons pointed out this criticism in (oddly enough) a political cartoon [6]. Furthermore, they believe it is odd that cartoons are considered blasphemous when terrorist attacks in the name of Islam are not equally condemned by Muslims.[7][8] Also, aniconism is not limited to Islam, yet violent outcry like this seems to be more frequent in Muslim society.
In addition, they think it is remarkable that in countries like Syria, where demonstration is short of impossible, riots could result in buildings being burned.[9] Considering the current Hariri investigation, this is not an inconvenient distraction for Syria.[10]
However, it is countered that this assumes that because numerous Arab countries sponsor publishing anti-Semitic material, there should be an equivocal denouncement by Muslims.[11].
In contrast, Muslims are angry that the cartoons portray the Muslim religion as promoting terrorism because of the actions of a few of its members."
Lotsofissues 05:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Much improved.
Lotsofissues 05:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I think JuanCole.com should be cited under the "opinons of the left" comment on the main page; he has lots of good analysis of the topic. He makes the case against the Right reaction in the west pretty well.
http://www.juancole.com/2006/02/more-on-hypocrisy-of-west-and.html http://www.juancole.com/2006/02/caricatures-roil-muslim-world-beirut.html
The Guardian is linking to our copy of the cartoons. Babajobu 09:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems a problem that the Guardian link is to the image page, where one has to perform several 'goal-dircted' clicks to get to the actual article. I imagine that many people who come via the Guardian link will only get to the image, and from thereon, to the discussion page. There ought to be a clear indication as to where to click to get to the article. 86.139.217.222 12:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC) Mila
This blog post "Cartoons were Published Five Months ago in Egypt" claims that the Jyllands-Posten cartoons were republished in an Egyptian newspaper in October, without any great reaction. Can anyone confirm this report? -- Avenue 10:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
An update: scans of the relevant pages of the paper are now posted on that blog [8]. Different scans of the paper have been posted in a separate blog. Admittedly both blogs have a strong POV, but this seems like enough confirmation for us to comment on it. -- Avenue 22:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The cartoons were published in the egyptian newspaper Al Fagr in October. The blog egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com showed this and suddenly changed the course of the events on Feb 8. If an egyptian newspaper published the pictures during ramadan and there were no protests... That's an indication that the later demonstations were not spontaneous but rather put in place by political and religious leaders. The blog egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com should be mentioned and be given appropriate credit.
In "Burning the Qur'an" it was earlier stated (by me) that 40 extreme right wings and neo nazists did demonstrate in Hillerød. Kyaa the Catlord have changed this to "40 people did demonstrate..." noting that the right wings were mentioned above. But in the above paragraph, it was only mentioned that the RWs spread an SMS. If their relation is not repeated below, the connection is lost.
Actually several hundred people demonstrated in Hillerød that day, all but the 40 RWs in a counter demonstration against those. Hundreds of police officers kept them apart and took more than a hundred to the police station. I think it is plain wrong to state that only 40 people demonstrated in Hillerød. But the relevant information here is that (only) 40 RIGHT WINGS demonstrated in Hillerød. I suggest this detail is added back into the article. Claush66 10:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I would love to contribute something inflammatory to this discussion page, but this is all I can come up with: If I move my mouse over the numbers that link to the footnotes, the URL that appears does not correspond correctly, e.g.: footnote 69 links to Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy#_note-65. Not very important, I know, but how to fix it? David Sneek 11:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Can editors limit the see also section to the really relevant links? Holocaust denial seems out of place. Otherwise I would suggest inserting racism, right-wing politics, anti-semetism, Islam, Holy figures in Islam, Holy figures in Christianity, the Bible, The Koran, The Thora, et cetera. You get the picture, it makes the list too long. -- Nomen Nescio 11:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Ter e nc e Ong( 恭喜发财) 11:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Can you explain what immigration has to do with this subject? -- Nomen Nescio 12:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Azate I understand you feel strongly about it but at least give some arguments. There could be links to similar incident (you remove them), but I do not understand why your links are related to this story. Please discuss. Just inserting your POV is not civil.-- Nomen Nescio 13:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
(discussion inserted from editors talk page)
This is not related to the article so please remove it. I will observe the 3RR rule, but you could at least engage in the discussion I started. Furthermore, if you insist on this, than I insist upon inserting sociology, anthropology, racism, ant-semitism. This clearly is not relevant.-- Nomen Nescio 12:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
You are incorrect: [9]and that's why you inserted it twice, which I had to correct. [10] The timeline is superfluous.
Let's try and stay calm. I am only asking you to discuss. That is all.-- Nomen Nescio 13:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Please, first look at the before repeating that accusation. It clearly shows it is present after my edit, and there was a second entry of it which I removed along with other duplicate edits.-- Nomen Nescio 14:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I draw your attention to this 4 part article (below) that goes into great detail about why these cartoons are highly offensive and promote racism.
By publishing these cartoons, Wikipedia is promoting racism. People who polled in your polls are obviously not sensitive to the feelings of Muslims worldwide. I believe its a highly biased poll.
The controversy has been going on since Sept 30 and all you did was a 3-day poll? That's not very fair. I didn't get to vote in that poll and hundreds of thousands of other people also didn't know that there was a poll going on.
Governments of many countries, including the US have come out and officially said that these cartoons are offensive.
A highcourt in Johannesberg, South Africa ruled to stop Sunday Times from publishing these cartoons.
Please take these images down ASAP or I feel Muslims will have no choice but to take the matter to the court of law.
Wikipedia is benefitting from promoting racism and hate against Muslims and Islam, something that is not very Wikipedian.
And to those Jews and Christians who say go publish cartoons about their religion, obviously don't respect their religion as much.
The issue is racism: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=8267 Freedom to Spread Hate? http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=8243 Cartoon caricatures were designed to offend http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=8274
Please remove the images immediately.
Frank --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frankmash ( talk • contribs) . Scaife 11:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Which means you are promoting racism. The image itself promotes racism, don't you get it? It tells the world that Islam is the source of terrorism and to get rid of terrorism, they should get rid of Islam.
Frank
In short: no way, Frank, no matter how many times you keep whining about this. Yes, this image may be offensive to some. So be it. We're here to inform, we're not here not to offend. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 22:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion its totally stupid to have a poll about minority rights. Do you think that a poll in nazi germany would have saved the jews???? Raphael 22:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Once again the article's getting outrageously long, and once again I'm the one who has to do the dirty work. I'm moving the "Opinions" section to a new article, Opinions on the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy. People would have to move the appropriate references and talks to the subarticle. Aucaman Talk 12:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
We reinsert the opinions and exchange it for rumours!!!-- Nomen Nescio 13:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Also, there are a lot of Wikipedians working on this article alone. I'm trying to spread the work into several articles. The discussion section for this article has had to be archived almost on a daily basis. Again, highly inefficient. You're free to move the Rumors section, but taking back the Opinions would be a mistake. The section used to be short, but people read stuff online and start copy-pasting at random. If this continues I doubt we would ever be able to summarize it. By giving it it's own article, the management becomes easier (look at the "international reactions" article for example). Aucaman Talk 13:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The point is, all the space you want can be found by moving rumours, shortening timeline and reprinting. However, this apparently is beyond debate. As to commentary, see Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles and WP:NPOV.-- Nomen Nescio 14:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Could it be considered anti-Islamic to call all Muslims part of the same race? What would be the term for this? I'm not really sure... Valtam 15:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The Opinions section is horribly unencyclopedic in tone, and should be completely rewritten. For instance, an encyclopedia should never use the word "you" (outside of an actual quote, of course). I'm not quite feeling up to rewriting it myself right now; is anyone interested in doing this? If not, I'll do it tomorrow. -- Ashenai 16:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that it is wrong to move out "rumours" and "opinions". They should be cleaned up and kept in the article. The main criteria for keeping things in the article should be wheter they are directly related to the event. The rumors probably had an important effect on the outcome of the events.
"Danish Journalistic traditions", however is an article that would stand well on its own. None of it had any direct consecuence on the course of events here. Making it a separate article and linking to it from both this one and Politics of Denmark would improve the quality of both articles.
Opinions cleanup: Basically, opinions should only be included if expressed by world leaders or people directly relevant to the conflict. What "some muslims" or "many people in denmark" may or may not feel is completely unencyclopaedic unless an opinion poll is quoted. Anything not related to the cartoons controversy is not for this article.
Also: Statements that the queen of Denmark made in April would only be relevant if those statements can be shown to have directly influenced the course of events in September when the cartoons were published. (Such statements may be relevant to an article on the queen herself or on "Islam in denmark" or similar. Personally, however, I think the queens statement only sounds racist after translation into English, not in Danish as she said it.) -- PeR 19:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, the cartoons were published in a conservative mainstream newspaper in the context of what many Muslims perceive to be a pervasive bias against them in many western countries, exemplified by the French law on religious symbols in schools, the short film Submission, and the 2005 Sydney race riots.
This lacks a citation. Also, the listing of the 2005 Sydney race riots may be giving undue prominence to it. There are countless conflicts between Muslims and Christians that were more violent than the Sydney riots, and religion was largely a marker between "us" and "them" in this case. Then again, I'm from Sydney, so maybe I'm biased. Andjam 12:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Well done, Wikipedia. It must be a near full time job undoing all the vandalism. 82.26.173.144 13:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
This is getting tedious. Could someone please semi-protect this page for now? -- Ashenai 15:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I tossed his ip on the vandal list. Of course, he stops now.... Kyaa the Catlord 15:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I will then shut down every server and much more: e.g. the whole (AS)Autonomous System if wikipedia would come under a serious attack. Take it easy ... .
Hmmm... our happy little vandal dude is now using sock puppets. I'm thinking we need a temporary IP-ban, or semi-protect. Anyone willing and able to do the honors? -- Ashenai 19:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
What happened to the protest and boycot photos that were in the article? The overall article looks rather stale now with just the cartoon image. -- StuffOfInterest 16:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand what the big deal is about these cartoons. Muslims should be more tolerant about things just like christians and jews are. This is the 21st century, you cannot force the entire world to see things the way you do, or the ways you may deem as fit. It is very childish, grow up and civilize. Im sorry but its true. Starting riots and burning an embassy doesnt exactly help show a positive image for islam, especially when the entire western world is getting really sick of islam to begin with.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.68.168.169 ( talk • contribs) .
Just like christians and jews are? I don't think you live on the same planet I do. Madangry 20:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The following added text by Azate from the Opinions section doesn't seem to add anything... seems more like personal questions than questions being posed by parties significantly involved in this controversy...the sources for these questions should be cited.
Netscott 17:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
How about the important question: "Why Wayne Rooney?" Its been bugging me for the past couple of days. Damn vandals. Kyaa the Catlord 20:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
A number of ppl have challenged me in this discussion & on my talk-page to find any real "taboo" that exists in western countries / or show an example where freedom of speech is limited in the west - I would agree with you that Europe is very liberal and that such an example is difficult to find. However one can construct a scenario quite easily (note that this is different from giving an example though) where a picture would be so offensive that it would be "taboo" to put it on wikipedia or publish it in a newspaper - quite equivalent to what Muslims feel about the Muhammad (pbuh) cartoons.
Consider for example a pornographic picture (e.g. involving ... animals? an extreme close-up? violence? blood?) that would be so offensive to most ppl that you wouldn't dare put it on wikipedia. If you can imagine such a picture then you'll realise how some Muslims feel when they see the controversial cartoons on this page. Less drastic might be a movie of vivisection or extreme animal cruelty - such a movie could also be so offensive that it couldn't be put on wikipedia. Similarly a picture of a human with gross disability or horrific disfigurement. Finally consider this scenario: a computer-generated, photo-realistic picture or movie (i.e. no real humans involved, thus no suffering, etc.) of child abuse. Equally one can easily imagine that this could be so extremely offensive to the general public that it would never be put on wikipedia, not matter what the surrounding circumstance or controversy.
Imagine seeing one of those "taboo" pictures / images described above to help understand how some Muslims feel about the Muhammad (pbuh) cartoons and why we try to delete them. Someone who doesn't believe that animals are sentient might not have a problem with movies of animal cruelty (in fact many indeginous ppl are extremely cruel to animals). A gynaecologist might have no problem with extreme close-ups of sexual organs. All depends on the the context Rajab 18:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Images of children having sex is treated in the modern western countries the way blasphemy is treated in Islamic countries. Even wikipedia shows this bias. Child sexual abuse covers behavior that is not considered "abuse" in other cultures [11]. We don't have a photo of a child being sexually abused in that article. Not even a drawing of such an event, even though such a drawing is legal under US law. WAS 4.250 19:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I take back everything - those japanese drawings that baba pointed out are in fact even worse than the drawings we're currently discussion. Please consider removing those drawings & the drawings in this article Rajab 21:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Then what about the conspicuous absence of images of the subject matter of Goatse.cx? — Simetrical ( talk • contribs) 00:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
This article needs at least a rough estimate of the people killed, buildings burt, and other property destroyed. This is essential information in understanding the scope of the controversy. We don't need to go into political commentary (x deaths in protests from cartoons that stated Islam promotes violence.) - just a basic statment of facts. - Mr.Logic 18:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Where did this section go? ( Cloud02 20:30, 8 February 2006 (UTC))
Understood. Well it's linked on a couple of other articles (Henry Jackson Society & Multiculturalism); but I guess any blog is only notable because of its content – so you can decide.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4692518.stm
Is Wikipedia prepared? I've no doubt some attempts will be made to sabotage the article, over and above common vandalism. -- Tatty 21:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Why dyou feel the need to remove the cartoons? The article is just explaining what is happening, its not saying, "Oh, Muslims suck, who cares what they believe in, oh, and here are some cartoons!" It is just providing the facts (neutrally) for the people to know. Oh, and if there already isn't, I think I am going to make the Japanese article for this, does anyone object? Bert (^_^)
So sorry, I see that there is a Japanese article for it....I may add to it then. And (just wondering) would the Arabic (if there is one) Wikipedia have this article, but be more leaniant to how its so "Horrible"? And here is what Muslims were chanting (as well as having signs with this written) in London (Quote from Chicago Tribune): "Massacre those who insult Islam" "Freedom of expression go to Hell" and "Europe, you will pay, Fantastic 4 are on their way" The Fantastic 4 refers to the 4 London suicide bombers (who were Muslim) that killed 52 people in July. I think that that is WRONG, and I highly doubt that Muhammad would like his followers to claim innocent lives. Bert (^_^)
Would it be relevant to make a reference to this concept in the "see also" section? 86.52.36.140 21:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
People should be aware that there are evil people from danish tabloids here seeking angles to new stories.
Allegedly Denmark has about 40 cartoonists affiliated to the union of editorial cartoonists. After Kåre Bluitgen failed to find willing illustrators for his book, Jyllands-Posten sent out 40 invitations, but only got 12 responses, with 4 belonging to J-P's own staff. I think it would be interesting to know which cartoons were drawn by the J-P cartoonists, since these 4 cartoons probably are among the most anti-islamic of them. Needs some fact-checking, though. 惑乱 分からん 22:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Why do almost all the other major Wikipedias refuse to publish the cartoons? -- Lotsofissues 22:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
They're all un-American and so they don't have our same ideals of freedom of speech. -- Cyde Weys 22:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I have read about 20 others to check that statement. Some have the pictures, some link to them. Some seem lazy, some seem to have stricter rules of copyright/fair use. And some of the articles have them, then they don't, then they are back, and so forth. We are not the only site language version with Edit Wars. I don't agree with "almost all refuse". DanielDemaret 22:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Just an idea, but if you want to publish the cartoons on the Danish version, why not call up the paper and ask them if you can publish the cartoons on Wikipedia? I'm sure they would grant you the rights, seing as other papers around the world have reprinted them. Accountable Government 00:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Few other wikipedias are as comprehensive as English wikipedia, especially when it comes to images. For example, look at the article on World War II: tons of images. Look at its counterparts in other languages, some of them featured: very few images. Savidan 02:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)