This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
In the "Political Positions" section, the article previously stated: "He was the only Republican Congressman to vote against a November 2011 resolution (HR CON RES 13) to reaffirm "In God We Trust" as the official motto of the United States."
First, this is an incomplete, and therefore inaccurate, description of H Con Res 13. H Con Res 13 was a nonbinding resolution to reaffirm "In God We Trust" as the national motto and to encourage the public display of the national motto in all public buildings, public schools, and other government institutions. Amash has publicly explained that he would have voted "yes" on H Con Res 13 if it had only called for reaffirming the motto ( https://www.facebook.com/repjustinamash/posts/189125417837995). His reason for voting "no" on H Con Res 13 was based entirely upon the portion of H Con Res 13--encouraging public display of the national motto in all public buildings, public schools, and other government institutions--that the now deleted description of H Con Res 13 left out. Amash further explained his opposition to the "encourage" portion of the nonbinding resolution here: https://www.facebook.com/repjustinamash/posts/215110955225042.
Second, how any Representative voted on a single nonbinding resolution, which can not result in any change in law, out of thousands of votes on actual bills is not indicative of that Representative's "political position" on anything. The rest of the "political positions" section properly describes Amash's general views on major topics such as health care, war, economic policy, and the Second Amendment. The inclusion of the vote results of a nonbinding resolution, particularly when the description of the resolution is incomplete and inaccurate, can only serve to mislead and does not help a reader of this section looking to learn about Amash's actual political positions. Sonofshamwowjr ( talk) 03:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
The statement of the subject's endorsement of Ron Paul is only obliquely related to the subject, and it is improperly sourced. See WP:SELFSOURCE. The statement should be removed if deficiencies remain uncorrected.
Sisong ( talk) 19:45, 15 March 2012 (UTC)Sisong
Interpretation of the anticipated effect of proposed legislation and other politically charged material should not be included without citation to sources. Otherwise the article becomes a statement of the editor's subjective opinion or a forum for political campaigning.
Sisong ( talk) 03:26, 12 March 2012 (UTC)Sisong
All reporting of a bill that only focuses on one aspect of the bill content or just its title is a subjective interpretation. Your repeated efforts to reference only bills on this page that, on their face, appear controversial is a subjective interpretation that could be confused for political campaigning. Wikipedia pages for politicians are better suited for statements about the general positions of those politicians than subjectively picking and choosing specific bills without context.
Sonofshamwowjr ( talk) 15:45, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Please refrain from drawing value-laden conclusions about my contributions. The bill interpretations I added were from a cited and linked press interview of the candidate, not from my personal opinion. I recommend you read the press article, if you have not already done so. Regarding a politician's "general positions": they are also subjective interpretations unless citation to WP-conformant source material is included. Please cite your sources if you add general positions.
Sisong ( talk) 16:17, 12 March 2012 (UTC)Sisong
That the media can regurgitate the "interpretation" of a bill directly from the bill's sponsors--whose motivations are to get their bills passed--does not make those citations an objective source of information. Amash has made a name for himself by noticing details in legislation that would result in unintended consequences that the bills' sponsors did not catch. Moreover, Amash has voted on thousands of bills. Calling out a few specific bills--with interpretations that are taken from bill sponsors or third parties (like the news media) who didn't read the bills themselves-- will always be subjective. This will inevitably lead to a Wikipedia page that is filled with thousands of vote listings and citations. That won't help anybody.
Sonofshamwowjr ( talk) 16:49, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
If including the content of bills is out of place, then including the content of votes is also out of place. I propose we resolve the dilemma by removing discussion of both bills and votes from the article.
Sisong ( talk) 21:02, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure I follow. What's the difference between the content of a bill and the content of a vote? I may agree with you, but I'd like to clear that up.
Also, FWIW, the citation to HB 5575 (the human trafficking-related bill) is the proper citation for the proposition that the bill treated breaking off a marriage engagement as a form of human trafficking. That conclusion can only be found in the text of the bill itself. See section 6(E) of the bill ("FRAUD" INCLUDES, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, A FALSE OR DECEPTIVE OFFER OF EMPLOYMENT OR MARRIAGE.").
Sonofshamwowjr ( talk) 03:18, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
The content of a vote means what it was (such as "yes" or "no"), as opposed to the fact that a vote was cast (without regard to what it was). Consider the difference between the statements "he voted 'yes' on the proposal" and "he voted on the proposal".
On HB 5575: The text of the bill would not prohibit the mere breaking of an engagement. The actual text of the bill prohibits a false or deceptive offer of marriage. The breaking of an engagement could be used as one factor to indicate the offer of marriage was false when made, but the breaking alone would not be a violation of the law. Falseness and deception depend on the state of mind of the offeror at the time the offer is made. The breaking of an engagement (which comes later in time) doesn't automatically mean that it was false or deceptive when it began. People end engagements in good faith all the time for valid reasons such as changes in circumstances, revelations about their fiance, reconsidering their life plans, etc.
An interpretation of a bill that is not contained in the text itself should be cited to a source -- preferably one that provides logical analysis for the interpretation.
Sisong ( talk) 13:53, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying.
Re: Votes. I agree that it's not helpful to include either the content of the bill or the vote IF the part following the phrase "on the proposal to" is simply followed by only one interpretation of the proposal, which usually ends up being the media or bill sponsor's interpretation. I believe this should be true of any politician's wiki page. For example, "Mr. Smith voted NO on HR 123, a proposal to fund day care providers through 2012," is biased and not helpful without Mr. Smith's viewpoint being included. The casual reader would think that Mr. Smith does not support day care providers. A neutral report would be, "Mr. Smith voted NO on HR 123. The bill's sponsor's stated that the bill would fund day care providers through 2012. Mr. Smith stated that he opposed it because, while he supports funding day care providers, he was not willing to do so at the expense of funding K-12 education, from which this money would come."
Re: HB 5575: One section provides that "a person shall not knowingly provide or obtain the labor or services of another person by force, fraud, or coercion." "Labor" and "services" are not defined, and therefore could include such things as doing laundry or having sex. "'Fraud' includes, but is not limited to, a false or deceptive offer of employment or marriage." While I'm sure it wasn't intended, it is possible to prosecute a person under this law who obtains sex through a false offer of marriage. Once the engagement is broken off, its falsity will be revealed and its role in obtaining the sex (i.e. services) would constitute, under this law, engaging in human trafficking.
This discussion about HB 5575 only serves to underscore my point that there are multiple sides to every politician's vote. A wiki page that only details one side, the one reported by the bill sponsor to the mainstream media, will almost never give a neutral report. As I stated before, I happen to think it's especially relevant in the case of a fiercely independent and policy-detail-oriented representative like Cong. Amash because (if you follow his Facebook page) these are precisely the kinds of subtle nuances that often guide his votes.
Hope that helps.
Sonofshamwowjr ( talk) 18:35, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
This section may need to be removed for a couple of reasons. Political positions are not encyclopedic content and they tend to change with the social issues of the day. Also, the reference to most of the information violates WP:SELFPROMOTE.
-- Sisong ( talk) 19:38, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Need review of his role this week in House Roll Call 412 this week Chaler 03:18, 28 July 2013 (UTC)Chaler
Getting stripped of a committee assignment is one of the punishments leadership lays on a backbencher who isnt' playing the game nicely.
It seems worthwhile to list the members who had this happen to them.
-- Patbahn ( talk) 23:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to discuss this edit, which removes citations to Amash's web site. Primary sources can be reliable. In this case, it's being used to support statements regarding Amash's beliefs. His web site would be reliable in that regard. CFredkin ( talk) 17:24, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
You have a point about reliability. But what about WP:PROMOTION? Sisong ( talk) 19:53, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
If Amash's endorsement of Berman is significant and notable, you should be able to find a secondary source for it. CFredkin ( talk) 22:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
This diff has an edit summary "Go Away Congress", presumably because the original edits came from the US Congress's block of IPs. This does not seem like a valid reason for reverting those edits (which fixed a dead link, mind you). It's probably a good idea to focus on the content, not the author. Also, he's a congressman, of course DC people are going to be interested in updating his Wiki page. That's like reverting all edits to articles related to scientific projects that come from IP blocks at NIST, CERN or NASA. 0x0077BE [ talk/ contrib] 18:55, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
The following statement seems inappropriate. It serves no purpose other than being sensational. Westmoreland later amended his statement to be "obstinate factor". Saying this would get the point across without being offensive.
It is also troubling that Hubbard deleted it leaving the edit summary "vandalism". It is obviously not vandalism, and leaving an inaccurate edit summary is, to put it gently, something to be avoided.
Hubbard's assertion that the language is not "encyclopedic" is unfounded. We have hundreds of articles with the phrase, including many in the title of the article. If that offends an editor's POV, the editor will certainly not be happy about all the images on wikipedia of that part of the anatomy. If it appears in an RS, as here, it is appropriate. One can't impose one's own POV over what the RSs say, to delete either laudatory language or the opposite. We follow the RSs. Not individual editor POV. (Oh yes -- Hubbard clearly does not understand what libel is; as with vandalism, he seems to be using negative words, without substance behind his accusation). Epeefleche ( talk) 04:26, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
First and foremost, This is not libel. Calling someone an asshole and mentioning that someone is called an asshole is not libel. Also Hubbardc, your revert did not remove any vandalism. This is not vandalism. This talk page post was started more than a year ago. You should have probably read what has been said prior. Moving forward, placing this in the lead is simply giving this undue weight. Placing this in the body may also be giving this undue weight. Reviewing the discussion that has taken place this topic was moved to Talk:Tim Huelskamp. Note that this conversation is still on that talk page as a formally closed RFC. The closer notes that this RFC resulted in no consensus. The closer cites the BLP mentioning a tie results in the decision going for those in favor of the removed material. Since this discussion was moved there, the results there have an effect here. The result of course being the removal of the term asshole. As the closer suggests, if you would like it to use asshole in the article it would be necessary for you to get a consensus to do so. As it stands you do not have a consensus. I'd recommend taking it to BLPN. I'm removing this from the lead. I'm going to allow this to stand in the body to give us time to discuss how to appropriately rephrase it. -Serialjoepsycho- ( talk) 09:50, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
The foregoing discussion on this Mother Jones quote focused on use of language. I am re-raising the issue to focus on whether the lede, with these quotes, violates the spirit and letter of WP policies and guidelines about ledes. In choosing quotes for a lede, one must demonstrate that they satisfy the aim of the lead in synthesizing the content of the article, and reflecting the preponderance of scholarly sources on the matter. I argue that including these quotes fails both of these tests (no significant time spent on quotes in body of text, and no clear evidence that the quotes, however pithy, reflect the preponderance of published opinion on the matter).
Hence, I think the choice of the quotes in general, and the Mother Jones quote in particular, for the lede are inappropriate. These are single publication statements. The lede is intended to be a synthesis of the whole article. The use of quotes is, and should be discouraged as summary, but can be appropriate if represents a consensus and serves as summary (e.g., "Presidential historian... is quoted as saying President Reagan is among the most... an opinion shared by most scholars." would be fine).
Here is the text removed. I think it should be returned only if it is clearly the consensus of published authors (not WP editor opinion, or liked for its pithiness or earthiness).
Conor Friedersdorf, writing for The Atlantic, called Amash "one of the most important civil libertarians in the House of Representatives". [1] Tim Murphy wrote in Mother Jones: "Karl Rove calls him a 'liberal Republican'; Democrats insist his fiscal policy makes Paul Ryan look like a New Dealer; some in the GOP establishment just straight up say he's an asshole." [2]
Please discuss, and paraphrase or justify this particular content as being appropriate for the lede. Please argue on the basis not of personal opinion, liking the content or not, but based on WP policy and guidelines ( WP:BLPSTYLE, MOS:INTRO, etc.). Le Prof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 08:49, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Discussion
Just because WSJ wrote something does not make it true... I guess this is just wiki bias showing (any chance to bash Trump). For example there is not a single mention of Libertarian in the introductory section, and Amash has been famous among Libertarians( https://reason.com/tags/justin-amash ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.188.148.227 ( talk) 23:58, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
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Amash has numerous category tags, but no mention in the text of being of Arab, Syrian or Palestinian descent which would seem relevant to his politics: American people of Levantine-Eastern Orthodox Christian descent American people of Palestinian descent American people of Syrian descent American politicians of Palestinian descent American politicians of Syrian descent Bachcell ( talk) 12:43, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I concur. Likewise I'd like to see more information and citations (none at present) about his business dealings--esp. with China. His ancestry and business interests may define his attitude towards the president and his policies and deserve mention. (Warships steaming towards the Middle East, and tariffs piling up against China ATM) 64.47.214.68 ( talk) 14:23, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Why is "Tea Party movement activists" one of the categories, yet the Tea Party is not mentioned at all in this article? 173.88.241.33 ( talk) 00:36, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I AM HERE REPLACED VANDALIZED ENTRY WITH MY ORIGINAL ENTRY. Trump was incorrect when he wrote on twitter in his criticism of Amash that the Mueller report ultimately found "no obstruction." This can easily be shown by the most cursory examination of the report. The report pointedly says that Trump is not exonerated and says that it will not make a traditional prosecution decision on the basis that it is the president. It is impossible for any fair minded person to believe that the president did not understand this basic conclusion given the gravity of the report and his army of lawyers at hand. Therefore, he lied. He simply lied. So we need to say he lied about this, not "falsely claimed." I realize we are living in the post truth age, it is impossible to believe the president is not aware of the basic conclusion of this report. Jazzbox ( talk) 02:30, 20 May 2019 (UTC) Jazzbox ( talk) 18:40, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
This description from Politico belongs in the lede. It effectively summarizes the 'political positions' section which delineates just how conservative he is. Furthermore, this is even more valuable given the disinformation campaign to portray this man as some kind of RINO just because he stood up to Trump. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 13:34, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
The editor Rusf10 is adding Karl Rove's, a partisan operative in the Bush White House, views on whether Amash is a true conservative to the article, and is using this one opinion to rebut the assessment by multiple RS that Amash is conservative (and in fact, very conservative by all measures), and changing text so that the article presents the issue of Amash's conservatism as if it were an active debate when it's just Rove's opinion versus a description from multiple RS. This is all feeding into the false narrative that Amash is some kind of RINO, and is a borderline BLP violation. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 23:46, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
When his resignation from the Republican Party was added to the lead, the following was included:
He is the only independent serving in the House of Representatives. He is the first independent to serve in the House of Representatives since Bernie Sanders of Vermont who left the House in 2007 to become a United States Senator. Amash is one of three independents in the United States Congress, along with with Sanders and Maine Senator Angus King.
When I added his resignation to the body of the article, I intended to move this information there, as it is more suitable for the body than the lead. However, I was unable to find any reference source pointing this out. Without such a source this is synthesis or original research so I left it out. If anyone can find where a Reliable Source makes these points, please add it to the article text with the reference. -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:18, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
The article makes a point that he is the only independent and the first since Bernie Sanders. However Delegate Gregorio Sablan is also an independent. While not a representative, Sablan is part of the House so I think perhaps the language should be modified to reflect this. 172.78.39.20 ( talk) 03:09, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
This information has been reverted, with the following edit summary: "A single comment does not merit inclusion in an encyclopedia. WP:UNDUE." I think it is relevant and should be included.
On October 18, 2019, Hillary Clinton suggested "Russians" are "grooming" Tulsi Gabbard to be a third-party candidate who would help President Trump win reelection through the spoiler effect. [1] Amash criticized Clinton, stating that "The thing we know for sure is that Hillary Clinton is a Donald Trump asset." Amash suggested that similar accusations only "plays right into Trump’s hands; that it diminishes the legitimate inquiry into Russia; that it bolsters Trump’s ‘hoax’ nonsense." [2]
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
-- Tobby72 ( talk) 10:55, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
In this interview he discusses and affirms that his partisan affiliation is now solely Libertarian, not independent.
https://oembed.libsyn.com/embed?item_id=14139281&fbclid=IwAR3CBBJy_6GLMy4mBiLaS1ZxMckEfZRjTC3O0cmgk0NpWyTU7oXpDGIaWNI — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.105.63 ( talk) 04:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
The US House of Representatives and Libertarian Party wikipedia pages have already updated to reflect that he has becom--
MelanieN (
talk) 03:16, 6 May 2020 (UTC)e a sustaining member of the Libertarian Party and the Libertarian Party has announced that he has officially switched parties.
LP Facebook Post:
https://www.facebook.com/libertarians/posts/10158150833797726
"It is currently the third largest political party in the United States by voter registration,[1] and has one member in Congress, Representative Justin Amash of Michigan." /info/en/?search=Libertarian_Party_(United_States)
https://reason.com/2020/04/28/justin-amash-is-running-for-president-as-a-libertarian/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/rep-justin-amash-to-seek-libertarian-party-nomination-for-president/2020/04/28/482b7de6-89b2-11ea-8ac1-bfb250876b7a_story.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.60.204 ( talk) 06:07, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Under the heading of "Republican Party Departure", it says that "Amash thus became the only independent in the House of Representatives". However, Gregorio Sablan from the Northern Mariana Islands' At-Large District is listed as being an Independent since 2014. While Sablan is given the title of Delegate instead of Representative, he still sits and serves as an elected member in the House of Representatives. As such, the wording that Amash was the only independent in the House of Representatives seems a bit misleading. 172.78.9.238 ( talk) 22:29, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Smiiikes: Your rewording of the "climate change" quote has now been reverted by two people, Neutrality and Jon698. In spite of that, you just added it a third time. You should not have done that. You need to come here to the talk page and discuss your issue, and reach a consensus about what to say and what source to use. -- MelanieN ( talk) 00:39, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
The current text of this Wikipedia page says that Amash became a Libertarian. The listed source is Reason.com, which is a libertarian-leaning source. While it is clear that Amash considered a presidential bid on the Libertarian line, it is not at all clear from any source I can find that he (a) enrolled as a Libertarian; and/or (b) enrolled as a Libertarian while serving in Congress. So I'm not sure the article is fully accurate on this point. Does anyone have any helpful information? Amandil21 ( talk) 17:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
In the "Political Positions" section, the article previously stated: "He was the only Republican Congressman to vote against a November 2011 resolution (HR CON RES 13) to reaffirm "In God We Trust" as the official motto of the United States."
First, this is an incomplete, and therefore inaccurate, description of H Con Res 13. H Con Res 13 was a nonbinding resolution to reaffirm "In God We Trust" as the national motto and to encourage the public display of the national motto in all public buildings, public schools, and other government institutions. Amash has publicly explained that he would have voted "yes" on H Con Res 13 if it had only called for reaffirming the motto ( https://www.facebook.com/repjustinamash/posts/189125417837995). His reason for voting "no" on H Con Res 13 was based entirely upon the portion of H Con Res 13--encouraging public display of the national motto in all public buildings, public schools, and other government institutions--that the now deleted description of H Con Res 13 left out. Amash further explained his opposition to the "encourage" portion of the nonbinding resolution here: https://www.facebook.com/repjustinamash/posts/215110955225042.
Second, how any Representative voted on a single nonbinding resolution, which can not result in any change in law, out of thousands of votes on actual bills is not indicative of that Representative's "political position" on anything. The rest of the "political positions" section properly describes Amash's general views on major topics such as health care, war, economic policy, and the Second Amendment. The inclusion of the vote results of a nonbinding resolution, particularly when the description of the resolution is incomplete and inaccurate, can only serve to mislead and does not help a reader of this section looking to learn about Amash's actual political positions. Sonofshamwowjr ( talk) 03:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
The statement of the subject's endorsement of Ron Paul is only obliquely related to the subject, and it is improperly sourced. See WP:SELFSOURCE. The statement should be removed if deficiencies remain uncorrected.
Sisong ( talk) 19:45, 15 March 2012 (UTC)Sisong
Interpretation of the anticipated effect of proposed legislation and other politically charged material should not be included without citation to sources. Otherwise the article becomes a statement of the editor's subjective opinion or a forum for political campaigning.
Sisong ( talk) 03:26, 12 March 2012 (UTC)Sisong
All reporting of a bill that only focuses on one aspect of the bill content or just its title is a subjective interpretation. Your repeated efforts to reference only bills on this page that, on their face, appear controversial is a subjective interpretation that could be confused for political campaigning. Wikipedia pages for politicians are better suited for statements about the general positions of those politicians than subjectively picking and choosing specific bills without context.
Sonofshamwowjr ( talk) 15:45, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Please refrain from drawing value-laden conclusions about my contributions. The bill interpretations I added were from a cited and linked press interview of the candidate, not from my personal opinion. I recommend you read the press article, if you have not already done so. Regarding a politician's "general positions": they are also subjective interpretations unless citation to WP-conformant source material is included. Please cite your sources if you add general positions.
Sisong ( talk) 16:17, 12 March 2012 (UTC)Sisong
That the media can regurgitate the "interpretation" of a bill directly from the bill's sponsors--whose motivations are to get their bills passed--does not make those citations an objective source of information. Amash has made a name for himself by noticing details in legislation that would result in unintended consequences that the bills' sponsors did not catch. Moreover, Amash has voted on thousands of bills. Calling out a few specific bills--with interpretations that are taken from bill sponsors or third parties (like the news media) who didn't read the bills themselves-- will always be subjective. This will inevitably lead to a Wikipedia page that is filled with thousands of vote listings and citations. That won't help anybody.
Sonofshamwowjr ( talk) 16:49, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
If including the content of bills is out of place, then including the content of votes is also out of place. I propose we resolve the dilemma by removing discussion of both bills and votes from the article.
Sisong ( talk) 21:02, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure I follow. What's the difference between the content of a bill and the content of a vote? I may agree with you, but I'd like to clear that up.
Also, FWIW, the citation to HB 5575 (the human trafficking-related bill) is the proper citation for the proposition that the bill treated breaking off a marriage engagement as a form of human trafficking. That conclusion can only be found in the text of the bill itself. See section 6(E) of the bill ("FRAUD" INCLUDES, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, A FALSE OR DECEPTIVE OFFER OF EMPLOYMENT OR MARRIAGE.").
Sonofshamwowjr ( talk) 03:18, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
The content of a vote means what it was (such as "yes" or "no"), as opposed to the fact that a vote was cast (without regard to what it was). Consider the difference between the statements "he voted 'yes' on the proposal" and "he voted on the proposal".
On HB 5575: The text of the bill would not prohibit the mere breaking of an engagement. The actual text of the bill prohibits a false or deceptive offer of marriage. The breaking of an engagement could be used as one factor to indicate the offer of marriage was false when made, but the breaking alone would not be a violation of the law. Falseness and deception depend on the state of mind of the offeror at the time the offer is made. The breaking of an engagement (which comes later in time) doesn't automatically mean that it was false or deceptive when it began. People end engagements in good faith all the time for valid reasons such as changes in circumstances, revelations about their fiance, reconsidering their life plans, etc.
An interpretation of a bill that is not contained in the text itself should be cited to a source -- preferably one that provides logical analysis for the interpretation.
Sisong ( talk) 13:53, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying.
Re: Votes. I agree that it's not helpful to include either the content of the bill or the vote IF the part following the phrase "on the proposal to" is simply followed by only one interpretation of the proposal, which usually ends up being the media or bill sponsor's interpretation. I believe this should be true of any politician's wiki page. For example, "Mr. Smith voted NO on HR 123, a proposal to fund day care providers through 2012," is biased and not helpful without Mr. Smith's viewpoint being included. The casual reader would think that Mr. Smith does not support day care providers. A neutral report would be, "Mr. Smith voted NO on HR 123. The bill's sponsor's stated that the bill would fund day care providers through 2012. Mr. Smith stated that he opposed it because, while he supports funding day care providers, he was not willing to do so at the expense of funding K-12 education, from which this money would come."
Re: HB 5575: One section provides that "a person shall not knowingly provide or obtain the labor or services of another person by force, fraud, or coercion." "Labor" and "services" are not defined, and therefore could include such things as doing laundry or having sex. "'Fraud' includes, but is not limited to, a false or deceptive offer of employment or marriage." While I'm sure it wasn't intended, it is possible to prosecute a person under this law who obtains sex through a false offer of marriage. Once the engagement is broken off, its falsity will be revealed and its role in obtaining the sex (i.e. services) would constitute, under this law, engaging in human trafficking.
This discussion about HB 5575 only serves to underscore my point that there are multiple sides to every politician's vote. A wiki page that only details one side, the one reported by the bill sponsor to the mainstream media, will almost never give a neutral report. As I stated before, I happen to think it's especially relevant in the case of a fiercely independent and policy-detail-oriented representative like Cong. Amash because (if you follow his Facebook page) these are precisely the kinds of subtle nuances that often guide his votes.
Hope that helps.
Sonofshamwowjr ( talk) 18:35, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
This section may need to be removed for a couple of reasons. Political positions are not encyclopedic content and they tend to change with the social issues of the day. Also, the reference to most of the information violates WP:SELFPROMOTE.
-- Sisong ( talk) 19:38, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Need review of his role this week in House Roll Call 412 this week Chaler 03:18, 28 July 2013 (UTC)Chaler
Getting stripped of a committee assignment is one of the punishments leadership lays on a backbencher who isnt' playing the game nicely.
It seems worthwhile to list the members who had this happen to them.
-- Patbahn ( talk) 23:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to discuss this edit, which removes citations to Amash's web site. Primary sources can be reliable. In this case, it's being used to support statements regarding Amash's beliefs. His web site would be reliable in that regard. CFredkin ( talk) 17:24, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
You have a point about reliability. But what about WP:PROMOTION? Sisong ( talk) 19:53, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
If Amash's endorsement of Berman is significant and notable, you should be able to find a secondary source for it. CFredkin ( talk) 22:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
This diff has an edit summary "Go Away Congress", presumably because the original edits came from the US Congress's block of IPs. This does not seem like a valid reason for reverting those edits (which fixed a dead link, mind you). It's probably a good idea to focus on the content, not the author. Also, he's a congressman, of course DC people are going to be interested in updating his Wiki page. That's like reverting all edits to articles related to scientific projects that come from IP blocks at NIST, CERN or NASA. 0x0077BE [ talk/ contrib] 18:55, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
The following statement seems inappropriate. It serves no purpose other than being sensational. Westmoreland later amended his statement to be "obstinate factor". Saying this would get the point across without being offensive.
It is also troubling that Hubbard deleted it leaving the edit summary "vandalism". It is obviously not vandalism, and leaving an inaccurate edit summary is, to put it gently, something to be avoided.
Hubbard's assertion that the language is not "encyclopedic" is unfounded. We have hundreds of articles with the phrase, including many in the title of the article. If that offends an editor's POV, the editor will certainly not be happy about all the images on wikipedia of that part of the anatomy. If it appears in an RS, as here, it is appropriate. One can't impose one's own POV over what the RSs say, to delete either laudatory language or the opposite. We follow the RSs. Not individual editor POV. (Oh yes -- Hubbard clearly does not understand what libel is; as with vandalism, he seems to be using negative words, without substance behind his accusation). Epeefleche ( talk) 04:26, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
First and foremost, This is not libel. Calling someone an asshole and mentioning that someone is called an asshole is not libel. Also Hubbardc, your revert did not remove any vandalism. This is not vandalism. This talk page post was started more than a year ago. You should have probably read what has been said prior. Moving forward, placing this in the lead is simply giving this undue weight. Placing this in the body may also be giving this undue weight. Reviewing the discussion that has taken place this topic was moved to Talk:Tim Huelskamp. Note that this conversation is still on that talk page as a formally closed RFC. The closer notes that this RFC resulted in no consensus. The closer cites the BLP mentioning a tie results in the decision going for those in favor of the removed material. Since this discussion was moved there, the results there have an effect here. The result of course being the removal of the term asshole. As the closer suggests, if you would like it to use asshole in the article it would be necessary for you to get a consensus to do so. As it stands you do not have a consensus. I'd recommend taking it to BLPN. I'm removing this from the lead. I'm going to allow this to stand in the body to give us time to discuss how to appropriately rephrase it. -Serialjoepsycho- ( talk) 09:50, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
The foregoing discussion on this Mother Jones quote focused on use of language. I am re-raising the issue to focus on whether the lede, with these quotes, violates the spirit and letter of WP policies and guidelines about ledes. In choosing quotes for a lede, one must demonstrate that they satisfy the aim of the lead in synthesizing the content of the article, and reflecting the preponderance of scholarly sources on the matter. I argue that including these quotes fails both of these tests (no significant time spent on quotes in body of text, and no clear evidence that the quotes, however pithy, reflect the preponderance of published opinion on the matter).
Hence, I think the choice of the quotes in general, and the Mother Jones quote in particular, for the lede are inappropriate. These are single publication statements. The lede is intended to be a synthesis of the whole article. The use of quotes is, and should be discouraged as summary, but can be appropriate if represents a consensus and serves as summary (e.g., "Presidential historian... is quoted as saying President Reagan is among the most... an opinion shared by most scholars." would be fine).
Here is the text removed. I think it should be returned only if it is clearly the consensus of published authors (not WP editor opinion, or liked for its pithiness or earthiness).
Conor Friedersdorf, writing for The Atlantic, called Amash "one of the most important civil libertarians in the House of Representatives". [1] Tim Murphy wrote in Mother Jones: "Karl Rove calls him a 'liberal Republican'; Democrats insist his fiscal policy makes Paul Ryan look like a New Dealer; some in the GOP establishment just straight up say he's an asshole." [2]
Please discuss, and paraphrase or justify this particular content as being appropriate for the lede. Please argue on the basis not of personal opinion, liking the content or not, but based on WP policy and guidelines ( WP:BLPSTYLE, MOS:INTRO, etc.). Le Prof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 08:49, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Discussion
Just because WSJ wrote something does not make it true... I guess this is just wiki bias showing (any chance to bash Trump). For example there is not a single mention of Libertarian in the introductory section, and Amash has been famous among Libertarians( https://reason.com/tags/justin-amash ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.188.148.227 ( talk) 23:58, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
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Amash has numerous category tags, but no mention in the text of being of Arab, Syrian or Palestinian descent which would seem relevant to his politics: American people of Levantine-Eastern Orthodox Christian descent American people of Palestinian descent American people of Syrian descent American politicians of Palestinian descent American politicians of Syrian descent Bachcell ( talk) 12:43, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I concur. Likewise I'd like to see more information and citations (none at present) about his business dealings--esp. with China. His ancestry and business interests may define his attitude towards the president and his policies and deserve mention. (Warships steaming towards the Middle East, and tariffs piling up against China ATM) 64.47.214.68 ( talk) 14:23, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Why is "Tea Party movement activists" one of the categories, yet the Tea Party is not mentioned at all in this article? 173.88.241.33 ( talk) 00:36, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I AM HERE REPLACED VANDALIZED ENTRY WITH MY ORIGINAL ENTRY. Trump was incorrect when he wrote on twitter in his criticism of Amash that the Mueller report ultimately found "no obstruction." This can easily be shown by the most cursory examination of the report. The report pointedly says that Trump is not exonerated and says that it will not make a traditional prosecution decision on the basis that it is the president. It is impossible for any fair minded person to believe that the president did not understand this basic conclusion given the gravity of the report and his army of lawyers at hand. Therefore, he lied. He simply lied. So we need to say he lied about this, not "falsely claimed." I realize we are living in the post truth age, it is impossible to believe the president is not aware of the basic conclusion of this report. Jazzbox ( talk) 02:30, 20 May 2019 (UTC) Jazzbox ( talk) 18:40, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
This description from Politico belongs in the lede. It effectively summarizes the 'political positions' section which delineates just how conservative he is. Furthermore, this is even more valuable given the disinformation campaign to portray this man as some kind of RINO just because he stood up to Trump. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 13:34, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
The editor Rusf10 is adding Karl Rove's, a partisan operative in the Bush White House, views on whether Amash is a true conservative to the article, and is using this one opinion to rebut the assessment by multiple RS that Amash is conservative (and in fact, very conservative by all measures), and changing text so that the article presents the issue of Amash's conservatism as if it were an active debate when it's just Rove's opinion versus a description from multiple RS. This is all feeding into the false narrative that Amash is some kind of RINO, and is a borderline BLP violation. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 23:46, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
When his resignation from the Republican Party was added to the lead, the following was included:
He is the only independent serving in the House of Representatives. He is the first independent to serve in the House of Representatives since Bernie Sanders of Vermont who left the House in 2007 to become a United States Senator. Amash is one of three independents in the United States Congress, along with with Sanders and Maine Senator Angus King.
When I added his resignation to the body of the article, I intended to move this information there, as it is more suitable for the body than the lead. However, I was unable to find any reference source pointing this out. Without such a source this is synthesis or original research so I left it out. If anyone can find where a Reliable Source makes these points, please add it to the article text with the reference. -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:18, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
The article makes a point that he is the only independent and the first since Bernie Sanders. However Delegate Gregorio Sablan is also an independent. While not a representative, Sablan is part of the House so I think perhaps the language should be modified to reflect this. 172.78.39.20 ( talk) 03:09, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
This information has been reverted, with the following edit summary: "A single comment does not merit inclusion in an encyclopedia. WP:UNDUE." I think it is relevant and should be included.
On October 18, 2019, Hillary Clinton suggested "Russians" are "grooming" Tulsi Gabbard to be a third-party candidate who would help President Trump win reelection through the spoiler effect. [1] Amash criticized Clinton, stating that "The thing we know for sure is that Hillary Clinton is a Donald Trump asset." Amash suggested that similar accusations only "plays right into Trump’s hands; that it diminishes the legitimate inquiry into Russia; that it bolsters Trump’s ‘hoax’ nonsense." [2]
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
-- Tobby72 ( talk) 10:55, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
In this interview he discusses and affirms that his partisan affiliation is now solely Libertarian, not independent.
https://oembed.libsyn.com/embed?item_id=14139281&fbclid=IwAR3CBBJy_6GLMy4mBiLaS1ZxMckEfZRjTC3O0cmgk0NpWyTU7oXpDGIaWNI — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.105.63 ( talk) 04:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
The US House of Representatives and Libertarian Party wikipedia pages have already updated to reflect that he has becom--
MelanieN (
talk) 03:16, 6 May 2020 (UTC)e a sustaining member of the Libertarian Party and the Libertarian Party has announced that he has officially switched parties.
LP Facebook Post:
https://www.facebook.com/libertarians/posts/10158150833797726
"It is currently the third largest political party in the United States by voter registration,[1] and has one member in Congress, Representative Justin Amash of Michigan." /info/en/?search=Libertarian_Party_(United_States)
https://reason.com/2020/04/28/justin-amash-is-running-for-president-as-a-libertarian/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/rep-justin-amash-to-seek-libertarian-party-nomination-for-president/2020/04/28/482b7de6-89b2-11ea-8ac1-bfb250876b7a_story.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.60.204 ( talk) 06:07, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Under the heading of "Republican Party Departure", it says that "Amash thus became the only independent in the House of Representatives". However, Gregorio Sablan from the Northern Mariana Islands' At-Large District is listed as being an Independent since 2014. While Sablan is given the title of Delegate instead of Representative, he still sits and serves as an elected member in the House of Representatives. As such, the wording that Amash was the only independent in the House of Representatives seems a bit misleading. 172.78.9.238 ( talk) 22:29, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Smiiikes: Your rewording of the "climate change" quote has now been reverted by two people, Neutrality and Jon698. In spite of that, you just added it a third time. You should not have done that. You need to come here to the talk page and discuss your issue, and reach a consensus about what to say and what source to use. -- MelanieN ( talk) 00:39, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
The current text of this Wikipedia page says that Amash became a Libertarian. The listed source is Reason.com, which is a libertarian-leaning source. While it is clear that Amash considered a presidential bid on the Libertarian line, it is not at all clear from any source I can find that he (a) enrolled as a Libertarian; and/or (b) enrolled as a Libertarian while serving in Congress. So I'm not sure the article is fully accurate on this point. Does anyone have any helpful information? Amandil21 ( talk) 17:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)