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Junius Ho article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This page is about an active politician who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy. Because of this, this article is at increased risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism. |
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This article is written in Hong Kong English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
@ Eterror: made a major, unexplained change which brought the article back to a Feb 2016 version that was previously reverted for cause by @ Citobun:. @ Ohconfucius: also reverted a similarly contentious Eterror edit back in May 2016. I have reverted Eterror's latest massive changes, which require some justification, with talk discussion here as required. Dl2000 ( talk) 23:52, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Due to the 2019 independence protests stemming from the proposed extradition bill, there is renewed interest in hong kong politics. Changes have been made by pro-beijing editors with subjective comments such as "he has become a voice of reason against pro indendence movement and civil disobedience. JOSHUA4230 ( talk) 06:41, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Recent edit by Beijing IP address 47.75.196.105 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS) claims that the Yuen Long mobs were "primarily targeting those wore black and most of whom just got back from Causeway Bay protests". This is not reflected in coverage by reliable sources, which states that commuters, protesters, and journalists were all targeted. Citobun ( talk) 08:50, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
I would remind editors not to input any potentially libellous content per the DS notice above. STSC ( talk) 18:43, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't see it mentioned. Kaihsu ( talk) 19:53, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
@ Citobun
Refer to 08:14, 13 May 2020
Changing the phrase 'attackers' to 'white-shirters' is not a whitewashing move. It is important that we clarify that when Junius Ho shook hands with those white-shirters the attack has yet to occur. It is only after the Yuen Long Incident that they should be labelled as attackers.
Furthermore, your blanket reversion fails to make note of my contributions to clarify/update certain controversies as mapped out on the wikipedia page. The edits were rightly cited after @Underbar dk 's contribution.
Addition to philanthropy sections is long-due. The page as it is is already very biased with no mention of his political/legal contribution to the community. The move to assume that I have a conflict of interest is highly unfounded. Should you believe that this is the case, surely you also ought to clarify your interests? At least read the ammendments I made and comment on which parts you would like to dispute so we can have a discussion from there on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomaslam1990 ( talk • contribs) 10:07, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I have taken a third opinion request for this page and am currently reviewing the issues. I shall replace this text shortly with my reply. I have made no previous edits on Junius Ho and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 04:45, 14 May 2020 (UTC) |
@ Galendalia, Citobun, and Eumat114: I agree with Eumat's suggestion to adopt the term "white-clad" instead. Other examples of SCMP posts refer to the incident as such: "A video circulated online showed Ho shaking hands with men wearing white tops and thanking them on the night in question.", "White-clad men attacked travellers and passers-by at Yuen Long station in July", "A video circulated online showed Ho shaking hands with men wearing white tops and thanking them on the night in question.", etc. [3] [4] I disagree with Citobun's response about Apple Daily's credibility. It's literally a survey he's citing, which is based on opinion and not a thorough study of journalistic integrity in any legitimate metrics. Furthermore, Chinese University students are well documented to be highly in favour of the protest and harbouring anti-establishment sentiments. Additionally, as I've explained many times before, almost like a broken record now, yes saying that they are attackers assumes that they are attackers at the time of which Ho shook hands with them. This flavours the texts. Consider this hypothetical situation: Jerry's friends with Eric Harris since kindergarten. Many years later, in 1999, the Columbine massacre happened. Is it correct to henceforth label Jerry as a friend of murderer, or that he played with a murderer when he was young or fell in love with a murderer when he was young? etc. I do not believe this is the correct attitude to adopt. Because it assumes responsibility or guilt despite there being none. It also invokes other emotional or moral baggage by association. If we are truly committed to a NPOV, we should at least/at minimum ensure that the two events are painstakingly unique and not necessarily having any causal relations. This is why I was so adamant about the interpretation of "attackers" (see previous discussion: "Not distinguishing the temporal order of the two events will inevitably lead to bias and flavouring of the texts.") Thomaslam1990 ( talk) 05:31, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Thomaslam1990: can you provide an example? I don't see any mention of Facebook/Twitter on this, plus any such citations must have come from Ho himself (and not some press reporters). The reason we came here is to ask for consensus, so that's wat we should be doing. Don't forget the "D" in WP:BRD. Eumat114 formerly TLOM ( Message) 03:03, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
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As advised by Eumat114, I shall now list the things that I think needed to be changed here and reach a consensus prior to publishing.
Feel free to use this section for other editor's proposals.
Thomaslam1990 ( talk) 04:43, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Junius Ho article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This page is about an active politician who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy. Because of this, this article is at increased risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in Hong Kong English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
@ Eterror: made a major, unexplained change which brought the article back to a Feb 2016 version that was previously reverted for cause by @ Citobun:. @ Ohconfucius: also reverted a similarly contentious Eterror edit back in May 2016. I have reverted Eterror's latest massive changes, which require some justification, with talk discussion here as required. Dl2000 ( talk) 23:52, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Due to the 2019 independence protests stemming from the proposed extradition bill, there is renewed interest in hong kong politics. Changes have been made by pro-beijing editors with subjective comments such as "he has become a voice of reason against pro indendence movement and civil disobedience. JOSHUA4230 ( talk) 06:41, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Recent edit by Beijing IP address 47.75.196.105 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS) claims that the Yuen Long mobs were "primarily targeting those wore black and most of whom just got back from Causeway Bay protests". This is not reflected in coverage by reliable sources, which states that commuters, protesters, and journalists were all targeted. Citobun ( talk) 08:50, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
I would remind editors not to input any potentially libellous content per the DS notice above. STSC ( talk) 18:43, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't see it mentioned. Kaihsu ( talk) 19:53, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
@ Citobun
Refer to 08:14, 13 May 2020
Changing the phrase 'attackers' to 'white-shirters' is not a whitewashing move. It is important that we clarify that when Junius Ho shook hands with those white-shirters the attack has yet to occur. It is only after the Yuen Long Incident that they should be labelled as attackers.
Furthermore, your blanket reversion fails to make note of my contributions to clarify/update certain controversies as mapped out on the wikipedia page. The edits were rightly cited after @Underbar dk 's contribution.
Addition to philanthropy sections is long-due. The page as it is is already very biased with no mention of his political/legal contribution to the community. The move to assume that I have a conflict of interest is highly unfounded. Should you believe that this is the case, surely you also ought to clarify your interests? At least read the ammendments I made and comment on which parts you would like to dispute so we can have a discussion from there on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomaslam1990 ( talk • contribs) 10:07, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I have taken a third opinion request for this page and am currently reviewing the issues. I shall replace this text shortly with my reply. I have made no previous edits on Junius Ho and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 04:45, 14 May 2020 (UTC) |
@ Galendalia, Citobun, and Eumat114: I agree with Eumat's suggestion to adopt the term "white-clad" instead. Other examples of SCMP posts refer to the incident as such: "A video circulated online showed Ho shaking hands with men wearing white tops and thanking them on the night in question.", "White-clad men attacked travellers and passers-by at Yuen Long station in July", "A video circulated online showed Ho shaking hands with men wearing white tops and thanking them on the night in question.", etc. [3] [4] I disagree with Citobun's response about Apple Daily's credibility. It's literally a survey he's citing, which is based on opinion and not a thorough study of journalistic integrity in any legitimate metrics. Furthermore, Chinese University students are well documented to be highly in favour of the protest and harbouring anti-establishment sentiments. Additionally, as I've explained many times before, almost like a broken record now, yes saying that they are attackers assumes that they are attackers at the time of which Ho shook hands with them. This flavours the texts. Consider this hypothetical situation: Jerry's friends with Eric Harris since kindergarten. Many years later, in 1999, the Columbine massacre happened. Is it correct to henceforth label Jerry as a friend of murderer, or that he played with a murderer when he was young or fell in love with a murderer when he was young? etc. I do not believe this is the correct attitude to adopt. Because it assumes responsibility or guilt despite there being none. It also invokes other emotional or moral baggage by association. If we are truly committed to a NPOV, we should at least/at minimum ensure that the two events are painstakingly unique and not necessarily having any causal relations. This is why I was so adamant about the interpretation of "attackers" (see previous discussion: "Not distinguishing the temporal order of the two events will inevitably lead to bias and flavouring of the texts.") Thomaslam1990 ( talk) 05:31, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Thomaslam1990: can you provide an example? I don't see any mention of Facebook/Twitter on this, plus any such citations must have come from Ho himself (and not some press reporters). The reason we came here is to ask for consensus, so that's wat we should be doing. Don't forget the "D" in WP:BRD. Eumat114 formerly TLOM ( Message) 03:03, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
As advised by Eumat114, I shall now list the things that I think needed to be changed here and reach a consensus prior to publishing.
Feel free to use this section for other editor's proposals.
Thomaslam1990 ( talk) 04:43, 21 May 2020 (UTC)