This page was proposed for deletion by Avilich ( talk · contribs) on 30 November 2021. |
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I've just deprodded this article based on a cursory review of the sources and the reasons provided in the nomination. This article might still be determined non-notable, but I believe it requires further discussion.
The first reason provided in the nomination was the lack of secondary sources. I don't believe this is a valid reason for deletion. The fact that the sources are the Roman historians who originally recorded them has no particular relevance. But if secondary sources are desired, they're easily-enough located. We don't delete articles because the sources currently cited are insufficient; we delete them because no sources can be found with a reasonable attempt to locate them. Here we have multiple reliable sources, so deletion based on the sources or type of sources or lack of citations is inappropriate.
The second argument, that the two persons mentioned here may not be identical, is probably correct. Neither the primary source nor the DGRBM suggests that they're the same person. The article originally focused solely on the tribune who dragged Vitellius from his hiding place; then someone else added the sentence about "military exploits in Galilee". Although it's not unlikely that one of Vespasian's generals was present at Rome during the overthrow of Vitellius, it is improbable that he would be described as "tribune of a cohort", when Josephus appears to be describing one of Vespasian's commanders, not a minor officer. So they probably are different people—but excising the second sentence wouldn't determine that the person originally referred to is non-notable.
The question of notability is quite relevant, although it seems likely that the second person—the commander of Vespasian in Galilee—is notable as a military leader. It may be that not enough detail can be extracted from Josephus or other sources in order to justify a stand-alone article, but that's a different argument from notability, and I don't believe that the proposed deletion notice indicates any attempt to determine whether this is the case. See WP:BEFORE, particularly points B. 2., C. 3. and 4., and all of D.
The original subject of this article, the military tribune, may not be mentioned or described in detail in other sources, and the level of detail about him in Tacitus is minimal; in fact Tacitus doesn't say that Placidus tortured Vitellius to death (if it did, the executioner of an emperor has presumptive notability). I suppose someone might have misread Tacitus to say so, but that seems like a very strained reading of the relevant passage. But WP:BEFORE C. 4. seems to be the relevant guideline here; if there's no more information then perhaps the subject should be merged into Vitellius, Vespasian, or the Year of the Four Emperors. In either case, the article should not simply be deleted; the correct procedure would be either improvement of the article or merger. P Aculeius ( talk) 16:00, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
This page was proposed for deletion by Avilich ( talk · contribs) on 30 November 2021. |
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
I've just deprodded this article based on a cursory review of the sources and the reasons provided in the nomination. This article might still be determined non-notable, but I believe it requires further discussion.
The first reason provided in the nomination was the lack of secondary sources. I don't believe this is a valid reason for deletion. The fact that the sources are the Roman historians who originally recorded them has no particular relevance. But if secondary sources are desired, they're easily-enough located. We don't delete articles because the sources currently cited are insufficient; we delete them because no sources can be found with a reasonable attempt to locate them. Here we have multiple reliable sources, so deletion based on the sources or type of sources or lack of citations is inappropriate.
The second argument, that the two persons mentioned here may not be identical, is probably correct. Neither the primary source nor the DGRBM suggests that they're the same person. The article originally focused solely on the tribune who dragged Vitellius from his hiding place; then someone else added the sentence about "military exploits in Galilee". Although it's not unlikely that one of Vespasian's generals was present at Rome during the overthrow of Vitellius, it is improbable that he would be described as "tribune of a cohort", when Josephus appears to be describing one of Vespasian's commanders, not a minor officer. So they probably are different people—but excising the second sentence wouldn't determine that the person originally referred to is non-notable.
The question of notability is quite relevant, although it seems likely that the second person—the commander of Vespasian in Galilee—is notable as a military leader. It may be that not enough detail can be extracted from Josephus or other sources in order to justify a stand-alone article, but that's a different argument from notability, and I don't believe that the proposed deletion notice indicates any attempt to determine whether this is the case. See WP:BEFORE, particularly points B. 2., C. 3. and 4., and all of D.
The original subject of this article, the military tribune, may not be mentioned or described in detail in other sources, and the level of detail about him in Tacitus is minimal; in fact Tacitus doesn't say that Placidus tortured Vitellius to death (if it did, the executioner of an emperor has presumptive notability). I suppose someone might have misread Tacitus to say so, but that seems like a very strained reading of the relevant passage. But WP:BEFORE C. 4. seems to be the relevant guideline here; if there's no more information then perhaps the subject should be merged into Vitellius, Vespasian, or the Year of the Four Emperors. In either case, the article should not simply be deleted; the correct procedure would be either improvement of the article or merger. P Aculeius ( talk) 16:00, 1 December 2021 (UTC)