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—
Yamara
✉ 18:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
In January 2004, 138.88.61.249 apparently removed all links to dates from this page. While the linkage may have been excessive, I could have done with links to 46 BC and 45 BC -- understandable for a page about calendars, no? As such, I've reinstated them, although not at the level they were before. JTN 17:32, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)
REGARDING the issue of leap day error every 3 years and debating who has the right sequence i would like to see this 1999 publication.
Meanwhile then please look at this chart i have made and tell me how it would be as 44 BC instead of 42 BC.
Julian Egyptian Reformation error Egyptian 45 BC* Jan 1 Koyak 30 Jan 1 = 709 AUC*Jan 1 Koyak 30 44 BC Jan 1 Tybi 1 710 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 1 43 BC Jan 1 Tybi 1 711 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 1 42 BC Jan 1 Tybi 1 712 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 1 41 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 1 Jan 2 = 713 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 2 40 BC Jan 1 Tybi 2 714 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 2 39 BC Jan 1 Tybi 2 715 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 2 38 BC Jan 1 Tybi 2 Jan 2 = 716 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 3 37 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 2 Jan 2 = 717 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 3 36 BC Jan 1 Tybi 3 718 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 3 35 BC Jan 1 Tybi 3 Jan 2 = 729 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 4 34 BC Jan 1 Tybi 3 Jan 2 = 720 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 4 33 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 3 Jan 2 = 721 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 4 32 BC Jan 1 Tybi 4 Jan 2 = 722 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 5 31 BC Jan 1 Tybi 4 Jan 2 = 723 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 5 30 BC Jan 1 Tybi 4 Jan 2 = 724 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 5 29 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 4 Jan 3 = 725 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 6 28 BC Jan 1 Tybi 5 Jan 2 = 726 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 6 27 BC Jan 1 Tybi 5 Jan 2 = 727 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 6 26 BC Jan 1 Tybi 5 Jan 3 = 728 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 7 25 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 5 Jan 3 = 729 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 7 24 BC Jan 1 Tybi 6 Jan 2 = 730 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 7 23 BC Jan 1 Tybi 6 Jan 3 = 731 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 8 22 BC Jan 1 Tybi 6 Jan 3 = 732 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 8 21 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 6 Jan 3 = 733 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 8 20 BC Jan 1 Tybi 7 Jan 3 = 734 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 9 19 BC Jan 1 Tybi 7 Jan 3 = 735 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 9 18 BC Jan 1 Tybi 7 Jan 3 = 736 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 9 17 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 7 Jan 4 = 737 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 10 16 BC Jan 1 Tybi 8 Jan 3 = 738 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 10 15 BC Jan 1 Tybi 8 Jan 3 = 739 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 10 14 BC Jan 1 Tybi 8 Jan 4 = 740 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 11 13 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 8 Jan 4 = 741 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 11 12 BC Jan 1 Tybi 9 Jan 3 = 742 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 11 11 BC Jan 1 Tybi 9 Jan 4 = 743 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 12 10 BC Jan 1 Tybi 9 Jan 4 = 744 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 12
9 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 9 Jan 4 = 745 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 12 8 BC Jan 1 Tybi 10 Jan 4 = 746 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 7 BC Jan 1 Tybi 10 Jan 4 = 747 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 6 BC Jan 1 Tybi 10 Jan 4 = 748 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 5 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 10 Jan 4 = 749 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 4 BC Jan 1 Tybi 11 Jan 3 = 750 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 3 BC Jan 1 Tybi 11 Jan 3 = 751 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 2 BC Jan 1 Tybi 11 Jan 3 = 752 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 1 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 11 Jan 3 = 753 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 1 AD Jan 1 Tybi 12 Jan 2 = 754 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 2 AD Jan 1 Tybi 12 Jan 2 = 755 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 3 AD Jan 1 Tybi 12 Jan 2 = 756 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 4 AD* Jan 1 Tybi 12 Jan 2 = 757 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 5 AD Jan 1 Tybi 13 758 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 6 AD Jan 1 Tybi 13 759 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 7 AD Jan 1 Tybi 13 760 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 8 AD* Jan 1 Tybi 13 761 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 13 9 AD Jan 1 Tybi 14 762 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 14
10 AD Jan 1 Tybi 14 763 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 14 11 AD Jan 1 Tybi 14 764 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 14 12 AD* Jan 1 Tybi 14 765 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 14 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.196.43 ( talk) 04:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Chris Bennett 20:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I revised the portion of the article dealing with the Orthodox Church's continuing use of the Julian Calendar. First, I wanted to distinguish sharply between the adoption of the New Calendar in Orthodox countries by the civil administrations and its (partial) adoption by some national churches. Accordingly, I put the material on Orthodox usage into a separate paragraph. Second, the article, before I changed it, left the impression that most Orthodox Christians adopted the revised Julian Calendar after 1923. In fact, world-wide, the great majority of Orthodox Christians (> 80%?) use nothing but the Old Calendar. I do not wish to debate which usage is correct (this is not the page for such sterile discussions), but I think it is important to be accurate about the numbers. jloukidelis 2004-10-17
Your points are well taken, so by all means change what I have written.
My difficulties, as I stated, were otherwise, and I would have my changes on those points preserved. That is, first, let us draw a sharper distinction between the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar by the civil administrations in various Orthodox countries vs the adoption of the New Calendar by two (actually, I think it was three) Orthodox national churches; and, second, let's be clearer about the relative numbers of Orthodox Christians who follow the New vs the Old Calendar (without being drawn into a debate on the merits of one vs the other).
JL 2004-10-18
Several of the articles on months (e.g., January, March) link here when mentioning the switch of March as the first month to January as the first month, saying that the switch was implemented as part of the Julian calendar reform. But this article doesn't seem to say much about it, just mentioning that Quintilius was renamed to Iulius, etc. Can someone who knows more than I do about this subject add a bit about it? Acheron 06:08, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Wouldn't "Harbistmanoth" be "autumn month", rather than "grazing month" and "Lentzinmanoth" "spring month" rather than "lent month" or which sense would be the most common during that time? (I might be wrong, but IMHO, These translations seem to derive from English false friends).
There is a merge request sitting in the middle of the article Acoreus that could do with some attention. Anyone here with an interest in the Julian calendar that would be interested in attempting it? -- Randolph 21:50, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Looks like this page was slashdotted: [1] :)
cp
Mount Athos still uses it: there is a place in the United Kingdom which still uses it - anyone know where? Are there any other places where the Julian Calendar is still in use?
Is it an urban legend that a group of pre-1917 Russian athletes arrived too late for the Olympic Games because they were working on the Julian Calendar or did it actually happen?
Seems to me the two topics of leap years and month lengths could be merged. Also, i saw the mention of the Mens Intercalaris (i didnt know that - interesting) and thought maybe something should be mentioned in the leap years correction part as well. Anybody with knowledge thereof interested? -- The Minister of War 11:23, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Since you don't have a talk page of your own I have to reply to you here.
You wrote:
More than you do apparently.
Did you? It converts Julian day numbers to Julian dates before 1582 and Gregorian dates thereafter. That's a perfectly reasonable external link for this page. I have used it alot in my own research on the Julian equivalents to dates in the pre-Julian calendar.
I agree it's useful. My initial reaction to this was to leave it alone as a stub for a more comprehensive subsection on the week, since the current article doesn't discuss it, and it reasonably could, although the week isn't just an issue for the Julian calendar. However, I found that there is a perfectly good article on the history of the week which even mentions the Dominical letter. This is where your algorithm belongs. So clearly the right thing to do was to add a link to that article and to remove the stub you had added.
And I'm going to remove it again. If you want to add your comment about Thursday to the article on the week, go right ahead. That's the right place for it.-- Chris Bennett 02:26, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the link to Julian Date Converter is out of place here. Although it does marginally relate to the Julian calendar, that is not the primary focus of the page. The link title is Julian-Gregorian Converter, which is not the actual page title, and is deceptive. It does not convert between the Julian and Gregorian calendars, but between calendar dates and Julian Dates. Anybody attempting to use it for any modern dates will get the wrong value on the Julian calendar. Julian Dates are not dates on the Julian calendar. It is true that the page uses Julian calender for pre-Gregorian dates, but it only marginally relates to the article, is primarily focused on a different topic, there are other pages which actually convert between Julian and Gregorian calendars, and which convert between Julian Dates and the Julian calendar for any year, not just before 1582. There is already a link to the Formilab page, which actually has useful information about the Julian calendar. See also Calendrica, for example. Just because you find the link useful does not mean that it is appropriate for this article.
This link is appropriate for the Julian Day article, and can already be found there. It does not need to be here. -- Nike 09:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
While Garzo was quite right to remove the Trivia section here, it was still pretty funny. JHCC (talk) 17:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
This article refers to the Gregorian calender, which doesn't have a page. To create a context for the Julian calender it would be helpful to readers if someone created a page for the Gregorian calender... I may if I have time in the next few weeks.
Nudas veritas 00:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Found this article quite interesting and most helpful. However, I had trouble understanding the math in one sentence. "This intercalary month was formed by inserting 22 days before the last five days of February, creating a 27-day month."
To me this sounds as if the original February only had 5 days. That can't be correct, so I must misunderstand the sentence and if I do so misunderstand, many others will, as well. Could you clarify? Thanks! Sporophyte 03:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Since Patrick's mailbox is overfull, I'm going to ask it here.
I'm wondering why you added this and whether it's going anywhere. Currently it just looks like a random fact, unrelated to anything else that's in the article. That makes it a candidate for deletion due to marginal relevance.
It might be a reasonable observation if the Julian calendar article had a section on dominical letters, but there is a perfectly good separate article on that.
If I don't hear a case for this by tomorrow I'm going to delete it.
-- Chris Bennett 00:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This isn't "technical information", this is currently just a bunch of numerical factoids, which don't belong in this type of article. I see you are responsible for adding the "similar" stuff to the Gregorian calendar article, which I don't normally monitor. These are rather more developed, but they are equally unfocussed.
It looks like what you want to do is to write something about algorithms for generating valid calendars. That might be an interesting addition, or (probably better) an interesting separate article. But I think you need to change your approach, if that's your goal.
-- Chris Bennett 21:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It isn't basic information, its a factoid. Give it a context, a theme and a purpose and there might be something there. Right now it has no relevance to the rest of the article, which is about the structure and history of the Julian calendar. Consider it gone.
-- Chris Bennett 03:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm baffled by this date change - this article mentions Founder's Day on 21st April? What is that? According to http://personal.ecu.edu/mccartyr/caesar.html - in 153BC the previous start of year was March 25th. This article: http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Egypt/ptolemies/chron/roman/chron_rom_cal.htm which seems very good holds that the previous date was Ides of March (which is the 15th March), or (controversially) May 1st. Anyone got evidence for dates or can confirm the dates given in the tynedale article? Thanks, Steve
My feeling is that this is somehow relevant to Easter, as Roman Calendar March 15th is very close to Gregorian March 20-21. Did the fixed date Ides not fall on the Equinox? May 1st is also a festival, of course. This April date I am sure have seen before but in a different context in relation to Bede and the Gregorian Calendar. Was the point of the change of calendar that March 15th was no longer the Equinox? Thanks for that article, it's made a lot of things much clearer. My educated guess would be that the previous start of year was on or close to a festival. Steve
Just as a piece of information for anyone else investigating, I had read that Julius Caesar was making use of the superior Egyptian calendar, but according to the article on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_calendar their calendar was not solar or lunar but worked from Sirius. It does seem likely that he was making use of their calendar, however.
The above is not true. For example Charles I was executed on January 30 1648 Old Style and January 30 1649 New Style. New Style does not mean that the date is under the Gregorian Calendar, rather the year is adjusted to the January 1 instead of what ever start of year was used in contemporary documents. But the Julian calender month and day date is taken as the New Style date until the country where the event took place changed to the Gregorian calender. -- Philip Baird Shearer 01:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I added some lines concerning the Berber calendar, which is used in Nortern Africa. If someone wishes to add something about it (the relevant article is missing), you can look at the it.wiki article (which is a featured article). -- Vermondo 12:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The way the "Month lengths" section is written now, it leads the reader to believe that the theory by "scholar Sacrobosco" is the currently accepted theory, until it mentions that this is "certainly wrong" at the end of the section. If I hear no objections I'll attempt to restructure that section to make it clear from the start that the widely repeated theory is considered wrong. -- Romanski 18:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The case disproving Sacrobosco could use clarification. Most urgently, the point regarding Note #2 ("First, a wall painting of a Roman calendar predating the Julian reform has survived,[2] "). This points to an image file which has no explanation connected to it (thus, the user cannot collaborate the evidence). Morever, judging from http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/RomanCalendar/ and http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/RomanCalendar/romecbib.html the image is not of a pre-Julian reform calendar, but of a post-Julian reform calendar. From the latter page, for example, "The calendar represented here is from the heyday of the Empire, when the Julian calendar was well-established." Imboot 05:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
. August has 29 days, pre Julian reform. The only surviving pre-Julian calendar is "Fasti Antiates Maiores". It doesn't look like that's the one you are linking to... Imboot 05:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
According to Augustus, Sex. had 31 days before the name change. Readers can easily wrongly come away with a wrong understanding (after reading the bit that calls Sacrobosco erroneous) if the timing of the change in Sex. from 29 to 31 is not explained clearly.
Finally, it would also be helpful if the image at Roman_calendar is also labeled as F.A.M. Imboot 07:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The basis of the Julian calendar is the sidereal year - the orbital period of earth around the sun. The idea of earth orbiting around the sun has been known to the ancient Egyptian astronomers. Later it has been inherited by the Pythagoreans, and has been quite prevalent among them. Later in 3rd century BC this idea had set foundations of ancient Hellenic mathematics doctrine, especially that of Aristarchus of Samos, who is considered a predecessor of Nicolaus Copernicus.
At the time of creation of the Julian calendar (46 BC), the theory of Aristachus has been prevalent among the astronomers and scientists. Hence it is no wonder that Sosigenes of Alexandria and other creators of Julian calendar have used the time required for one complete revolution of the earth about the sun, relative to the fixed stars, i.e. a sidereal year, as a basis of the Julian year. This real astronomic unit has become a pattern for the Julian calendar.
In that respect, the Julian calendar is heliocentric, while the Gregorian is geocentric. In the calendar reformation, the Roman Catholic Church initiators were persistent followers of Ptolemy geocentric system, and have used the tropical year (the time needed for a full revolution of sun about the earth) as an absolute unit. The very idea of existence of the sidereal year has been declared a heresy by the Roman Catholic Church, and its acceptance had hardly theoretical consequences (for example, destinies of Giordano Bruno and Galileo Galilei).
The Gregorian calendar project received negative evaluations from astronomers of that time such as Michael Maestlin and Anders Celsius, and has been graded as "meaningless" by the universities of Vienna and Sorbonne. ~ Mkol 14:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
What do these links mean? Are they vandalism?
http://www.enigmasdabiblia.com/
http://cronologia.enigmasdabiblia.com/
62.1.230.209 16:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
In his Opus Maius, Roger Bacon advocated reforming the Julian calendar because during his life time the vernal equinox was already nine days ahead of March 21st (the vernal equinox decreed by the Council of Nicea). Since the Wikipedia article on Roger Bacon references and links to the Julian calendar article, should not a reciprocal link be included? And perhaps some note that Roger Bacon realized the errors in the Julian calendar and the problem of celebrating Easter on the correct day. He was disciplined and largely ignored or suppressed by his superiors for his ideas and teachings.
Best wishes, Jon Moss 18:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi there... I have NO idea what I'm doing so I'm sorry if this comment comes out screwy or if this isn't in the right place. Right then, having prefaced it, onto my question!! I am interested in finding out more information about the Charlemagne calendar... did it replace the Julian calendar for a time, or run along beside it? And does anyone have any references for more information on the calendar Charlemagne set up (as in, why he changed the month's names, etc.)? I have looked in the article on Charlemagne but there is no mention of him changing the calendar.
122.148.138.178 12:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC) Cadence
Recent edits have challenged the statement that the last year named after consular eponyms was 541, the year the consulate was abolished.
I haven't looked at any source data for this period. I thought the statement was almost tautologous. I don't find either proposed edit satisfactory because they raise unanswered questions. If eponymous dating continued after 541, who was the eponym? And when was eponymous dating abandoned? We ought to be able to do better than "a few years later", even if it's only to say that the "last known" eponymous year is XYZ. -- Chris Bennett 14:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Some remarks. First, Julian did not reserve the consulate for the emperor. Just the opposite: before him the consul had to pay large sum of his own money for games to be held. Julian abolished this tradition. But since the change was unpopular, there were no candidates to become consuls and as such be associated with the reform.
About the book. It is I.A. Klimshin, "Notes on our calendar". The chapter named "Year-counting by consuls". The translation of the paragraph about Leo is Successors of the creator of Constantinople's Sophia restored the custom to declare themselves consuls 1st January and throw money to people as it was used before. Hence year-counting "post consulatum" continued until IXth century. It was only emperor Leo the Wise (886-912 AD) who issued a decree finally prohibiting to count years by consuls.-- Dojarca 08:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a few questions regarding 46 BC (the "last year of confusion" – but I am still confused). Is the following lost in antiquity, or is there a way to get this kind of detail?:
1. What were the names of the two temporary months added between November and December?
2. What were the actual lengths for these two months (i.e., how does 22-23-22 split into two months)?
3. What were the naming conventions for all those one-time days within those two months?
4. Where did they add the one-time-adjustment (the 23-days added to the 28-day February of 46 BC)? Should I assume that the action followed the practice for ntercalaris years (which you so eloquently described in the first paragraph of the "Motivation" section)? If so, the 23 days were added "between" the 24th and 25th. Alternatively, were they added a month-end (i.e., after the 28th day)?
5. What were the naming conventions for these 23 additional days added to February in 46 BC? I am sure that they could not use the "a.d.VI.bis.Kal.Mar." designation twenty-three times. Although it was a one-time deal, there must have been some kind of naming convention. If they followed the naming convention for prior (pre-47 BC ntercalaris years – I am still clueless as to what they called them. So, if anyone knows – that would be super!
355 days in 47 BC. 355+22+23+22+23=445 days in 46 BC. 355+2+2+2+1+1+1+1=365 days in 45 BC. Cool! (See, he can be taught! <grin>)
Great, wonderful, exceptional article! Your hard work is appreciated. — Tesseract501 22:25, 14 August 2007 (EST)
I am inserting the following on two discussion pages: "Julian calendar" and "Roman calendar."
I appreciate all the scholarly effort that went into the writing of the "Julian calendar" and the Roman calendar" pages. I particularly appreciate your commitment in keeping other contributors focused on the parameters of the articles. It is refreshing to see pages that keep the focus on the topic at hand, instead of including satellite issues that are covered in other Wiki articles.
I do have two questions. They are concerning the calendars dealing with the Julian Reform period. I.e., the actual reform period dealing with the year 45 BC, and the base-line year of 47 BC – without detailing the 47 BC data, we are left to deduce the reform-period’s additions, modifications, and deletions). Hence, after reading both articles, my lack of deductive reasoning has me derailed.
Question #1 – my concern is regarding two monhs (Quintilis and Sextilis - July and August). The "Roman calendar" article indicates a pre-Julian Quintilis with a 31-day duration and a Sextilis of 29 days). How do we resolve this against the adjustments indicated on the "Julian calendar" article? I.e., 2-day adjustment (addition) in 45 BC for Quintilis; and, no adjustment for Sextilis.
The following shows the (753 BC?)
355-day calendar that resides on the "Roman calendar" page. I have added notations at the end of the months, showing the 45 BC adjustments that are referenced on the "Julian calendar" article. Read my notation on the Quintilis and Sextilis lines. Based on the two articles, I assume the following:
Question #2 – the "Roman calendar" article indicates, "When Julius Caesar added a day to September, he did not add it to the end of the month. Rather, the new day that was added was the day after the Ides:
The "Julian calendar" article indicates, "Macrobius states that the extra days were added immediately before the last day of each month to avoid disturbing the position of the established Roman fasti (days prescribed for certain events) relative to the start of the month. However, since Roman dates after the Ides of the month counted down towards the start of the next month, the extra days had the effect of raising the initial value of the count of the day after the Ides."
So, which article is correct (or is it that the historical sources disagree: Macrobius, and the unreferenced source on the "Roman calendar" page)?
Or, is this apparent disagreement concerning September alone (i.e., were the adjustment added the-day-after-Idus for September, but the end-of-month for other months)? The naming conventions that I have seen for September run consistently from Idus thorugh month-end.
Or, are they both correct? Was the September addition made by Caesar, as referenced in the "Roman calendar" article, something that predates 45 BC? Was this omething Julius did to September BEFORE the Julian period. E.g., September 47, 48, or 49 BC, or even earlier. If so, it might be worthwhile to clarify this in the article.
Thanks again for sharing all the great information that exists on the two pages. You have pulled together a truckload of valuable information from dozens of sources. Great job at bringing it all together in clear and thoughtful articles.
By the way, I would love to see listed details (month-name and day break-outs) for the year 46 BC too – but that’s just because I love lists. You know, in your spare time <grin>
— Tesseract501 00:05, 15 August 2007 (EST)
"Note that as a consequence of change of New Year, 1 January 1751 to 24 March 1751 were non-existent dates in England."
I've understood that England did both the first-of-the-year change and the adoption of the Gregorian calendar in the same year: a few months apart in 1752. If the above sentence is correct, then I think it needs some further explanation. Thanks. -- Hordaland ( talk) 11:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Justinian II was declared consul:
Hic depositus est Caedual, qui et Petrus, rex Saxonum, sub die XII Kalendarum Maiarum, indictione II; qui uixit annos plus minus XXX, imperante domno Iustiniano piissimo Augusto, anno eius consulatus IIII, pontificante apostolico uiro domno Sergio papa anno secundo. [9]-- Dojarca ( talk) 04:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Much confusion has been created by two oft-repeated fallacies about this reform. The first is that Augustus changed the lengths of the months. About this, more later. The second relates to the way intercalation was handled in the reform.
In the old system, the most simple adjustment was the insertion of Intercalaris after 23 February (the Terminalia). This meant that the following days disappeared from the calendar: the 24th (a.d. VI Kal. Mart.), the 25th (a.d. V Kal. Mart.), the 26th (a.d. IV Kal. Mart.), the 27th (a.d. III Kal. Mart.), and the 28th (Prid. Kal. Mart.). They reappeared, however, with their attendant festivals, at the end of the following month.
Thus the 23rd of Intercalaris was a.d. VI Kal. Mart., the 24th a.d. V Kal. Mart., the 25th a.d. IV Kal. Mart., the 26th a.d. III Kal. Mart., and the 27th Prid. Kal. Mart. For an explanation of the Roman dating system, see the article Roman calendar. The festival of Regifugium, normally 24 February, transferred to 23 Intercalaris. All Caesar did was abolish Intercalaris and replace it with a single extra day in the same position, i.e. immediately after the Terminalia. <ref> "Lastly, in consideration of the quarter of a day, which he regarded as completing the true year, he established the rule that, at the end of every four years, a single day should be intercalated, where the month had been hitherto inserted, that is, immediately after the terminalia; which day is now called the bissextum." Censorinus, The Natal Day.</ref> The five days which had hitherto been transferred to Intercalaris then followed.
Thus in leap years the sequence became:
a.d. VII Kal. Mart. (23 Feb.); a.d. bis VI Kal. Mart. (or a.d. VI Kal. Mart. posteriorem) (24 Feb.); a.d. VI Kal. Mart. (or a.d. VI Kal. Mart. priorem) (25 Feb.); a.d. V Kal. Mart. (26 Feb.); a.d. IV Kal. Mart. (27 Feb.); a.d. III Kal. Mart. (28 Feb.); and Prid. Kal. Mart. (29 Feb.).
Our system of numbering days in order from the beginning of the month dates from the late middle ages, although the Roman Catholic Church did not adopt it until late in the twentieth century. That is why, in living memory, the feast of St Matthias (a.d. VI Kal. Mart.) was observed on 24 February in ordinary years and 25 February in leap years.
Some people have gone to great lengths to set up the case that in leap years it was 25 February which was intercalated, appealing to obviously unreliable sources. <ref> Celsus 39, cited in the Digest of Justinian 50.16.98. [1] [10]. In this sentence the redactor claims that if someone is born on 1 March in a leap year his birthday falls six days earlier! In 98. [2] he says "It is, however, established that there are twenty - eight days in the intercalary month." (There were 27). </ref> Reference is then made to an inscription of the year 168 AD, which states that a temple was dedicated on the fifth of the calends of March of that year, which followed the bissextile day. <ref>Roscoe Lamont, "The Roman Calendar and its reformation by Julius Caesar" [11], Popular Astronomy '27' (1919) (pp. 583 - 595 (at p. 589)). The reference is the second article in the hyperlink; its last page is here.</ref>
This is perfectly correct. A.d. V Kal. Mart. follows a.d. VI Kal. Mart., which is duplicated in leap years (AD 168 was a leap year). That is why it was called the bissextum (English, bissextile).
To close the case, when the question came before the Roman judges they decided that, of the duplicated days, the intercalation was the one labelled posteriore (or bis), which separated the normally consecutive festivals of Terminalia and Regifugium.<ref> Mommsen: Roman Chronology.</ref>
As the written evidence of intercalation between 23/24 February cannot be explained away it is then claimed "In later times, however, the relative position of the two days was sometimes reversed." If this had happened it would have been unique in recorded history. People do not tinker with calendars in this fashion - they are imposed by the state. No details are offered of when, where, why and by whom the alleged reversal took place. The Roman Catholic Church is specifically mentioned, but examination of old church calendars shows that intercalation was always between 23/24 February.<ref>The Roman calendar and its reformation by Julius Caesar (op.cit., p. 590).</ref>
The inescapable inference is that intercalation between 23/24 February was universal and unbroken. A similar evidential situation arises in relation to the lengths of the months, which will be considered shortly.
Material inserted into the body of the article by an anonymous user 217.169.37.146 moved to the Talk page -- Chris Bennett ( talk) 15:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)]
Why should Augustus have any problem with a market day coinciding with the Regifugium? Such conjunctions will have been plentiful in the past; and both Dio and Macrobius expressly mention market day conjunctions which WERE actively avoided, but the Regifugium is not among them. So perhaps the effect of the 48-hr day was also the aim; to keep the sequence of nundinal days stable. Lepidus appears to have sought the same thing (or at any rate done it) with his triennial intercalation, but Caesar didn't. Appietas ( talk) 12:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand the mechanics (calendric nor psychological) of shifting a dire omen attested as Kal.Jan. to Regifugium (especially when new year's day of the sacral calendar was Kal.Mart., rather than Regifugium)and find this the weakest part of your otherwise excellent analysis.
It occurs to me that Dio's data re 44CE is met if your model was initially applied (in 4CE) but subsequently changed (for Feb 12, 20, 28, 36, 44, etc.) in the nundinal G leap year so that in those years (unlike the nundinal C leap years; 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, etc.) the bissextil was included in the market week sequence (thus changing the letter of the market day), but the extra day subsequently reversed out of the sequence later in the year (perhaps by counting 30-31 December as a single market week day) or in Feb of the following year (by counting Terminalia and Regifugium in the regular year as a single market week day?). Appietas ( talk) 20:22, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
You don't see any ref. to the "old" Kal.Jan. superstition after 41 BC owing to the meagerness of the sources, but especially because it wasn't really an old superstition at all; it was a novel (and bogus) invention of Lepidus to save face in the Caesarian context, as shown by Dio's account which attributes several qualities to the Kal.Jan. nundinal conjunction which it did not possess even according to Dio's own record (i.e. the nundinal Kal.Jan. of 52).
All the more reason to doubt that the community cared about Lepidus' bogus omen, and above all that Imp.Caesar would have treated such a Lepidan invention with any respect, when he treated the man himself (after 35 BC) with loathing and bitter contempt.
The importance of Lepidus' action is that in addition to the (bogus) stated purpose of his modification of Caesarian intercalation, it also prevented the occurrence of a much more likely and really ancient conjunction omen which the community truly feared; as did Lepidus himself, while not wishing to publically admit the thing owing to its political nature and Caesar's contempt for it.
Your appeal to signore Occam is circular. IF Augustus transferring calendric Kal.Jan. to the Regifugium, and thenceforth avoiding any nundinal conjunction with Regifugium, was a sufficient act of omen avoidance and assuaged community superstitions and fears, THEN you are quite correct that there is no need to posit any other explanation of the Dio 60.24.7 and Celsus ap.Iustinian 50.16.98. However in my view this is a religious nonsense which wouldn't and couldn't work. I also doubt whether the one-off movement of the market day in Feb within the sextile biduum but no change for the rest of the year would be sufficient to catch Dio's attention, and prefer a version (any version) according to which the market day designation was shifted for most of the year. The beauty of the nundinal G/nonal conjunction thesis is that it seems to accommodate all the evidence very well, and the only major matter not in sources which needs to be assumed is that Macrobius' account of the avoidance of the conjunction of all market days with every nones became (sometime during 5th-3rd centuries BC) focussed alone or especially upon the nundinal G day; probably owing to its convergent position with the nones of the first month of the traditional Kal.Mart. year and calendar. However this is probably not the proper forum for such a debate, and we may as well resume it on the RF list (where it began some months ago), if you have the time and inclination. I'm especially interested in investigating the extent to which avoiding nundinal-G/nonal conjunctions may have contributed to the pattern of intercalation in the period before the introduction of the Kal.Jan.year. It may be a key to determining correct intercalary years until 154, after which it was excluded permanently from "play" so long as the year remained 355 days. I also think that this exclusion was deliberate and that one of the main reasons why the Kal.Jan. year was never changed (a burning issue in itself; rarely or never addressed) was to permanently avoid any convergence of nones and nundinal G, forever and ever. Perhaps because it was a religious imperative that began to interfere with the more "modern" and pressing reasons for the 153 reform (i.e. logistical needs of imperial rule, and desires to keep the calendar year solar aligned and beginning close to the winter solstice). Appietas ( talk) 09:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
1) There is no Roman text in existence with a date of "a.d. VI Kal.Mart. posteriorem". The only text to use the term "posterior" in connection with the bissextile is Celsus, and what he says is quoted above. This supposed "date" does not exist.
2) Ideler's discussion of this point can be read at [16] and [17]. Its in German of course, but it's pretty straightforward. Two points are clear:
3) The feast day of St Mathias is not evidence for the position of the bissextile in the first three centuries AD. There is no reason to believe that this feast existed at that time, and very good reason to believe it didn't. Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say in its article on Ecclesiastical Feasts at [18]:
Whether or not the church calendar is a "continuous record", the fact of the matter is that it does not go back far enough to be relevant.
On the other matter: The "28-day intercalary month" should be debated in the Roman calendar article, not here. But I can't help noting that, when Mr Anonymous first commented on Celsus, he specifically pointed out that Celsus' 28 days was an error for 27. I agreed -- and ever since he has insisted Celsus was correct after all. He gave no reason for changing his mind, but it is completely clear that he has no knowledge of the literature beyond what is accessible through Wikipedia. Apparently he took this position because I didn't. -- Chris Bennett ( talk) 01:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Note to the Nameless One: All further communications to you on the 28-day intercalary month takes place on the Talk:Roman calendar page, where it belongs. -- Chris Bennett ( talk) 16:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
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—
Yamara
✉ 18:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
In January 2004, 138.88.61.249 apparently removed all links to dates from this page. While the linkage may have been excessive, I could have done with links to 46 BC and 45 BC -- understandable for a page about calendars, no? As such, I've reinstated them, although not at the level they were before. JTN 17:32, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)
REGARDING the issue of leap day error every 3 years and debating who has the right sequence i would like to see this 1999 publication.
Meanwhile then please look at this chart i have made and tell me how it would be as 44 BC instead of 42 BC.
Julian Egyptian Reformation error Egyptian 45 BC* Jan 1 Koyak 30 Jan 1 = 709 AUC*Jan 1 Koyak 30 44 BC Jan 1 Tybi 1 710 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 1 43 BC Jan 1 Tybi 1 711 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 1 42 BC Jan 1 Tybi 1 712 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 1 41 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 1 Jan 2 = 713 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 2 40 BC Jan 1 Tybi 2 714 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 2 39 BC Jan 1 Tybi 2 715 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 2 38 BC Jan 1 Tybi 2 Jan 2 = 716 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 3 37 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 2 Jan 2 = 717 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 3 36 BC Jan 1 Tybi 3 718 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 3 35 BC Jan 1 Tybi 3 Jan 2 = 729 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 4 34 BC Jan 1 Tybi 3 Jan 2 = 720 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 4 33 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 3 Jan 2 = 721 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 4 32 BC Jan 1 Tybi 4 Jan 2 = 722 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 5 31 BC Jan 1 Tybi 4 Jan 2 = 723 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 5 30 BC Jan 1 Tybi 4 Jan 2 = 724 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 5 29 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 4 Jan 3 = 725 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 6 28 BC Jan 1 Tybi 5 Jan 2 = 726 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 6 27 BC Jan 1 Tybi 5 Jan 2 = 727 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 6 26 BC Jan 1 Tybi 5 Jan 3 = 728 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 7 25 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 5 Jan 3 = 729 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 7 24 BC Jan 1 Tybi 6 Jan 2 = 730 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 7 23 BC Jan 1 Tybi 6 Jan 3 = 731 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 8 22 BC Jan 1 Tybi 6 Jan 3 = 732 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 8 21 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 6 Jan 3 = 733 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 8 20 BC Jan 1 Tybi 7 Jan 3 = 734 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 9 19 BC Jan 1 Tybi 7 Jan 3 = 735 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 9 18 BC Jan 1 Tybi 7 Jan 3 = 736 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 9 17 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 7 Jan 4 = 737 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 10 16 BC Jan 1 Tybi 8 Jan 3 = 738 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 10 15 BC Jan 1 Tybi 8 Jan 3 = 739 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 10 14 BC Jan 1 Tybi 8 Jan 4 = 740 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 11 13 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 8 Jan 4 = 741 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 11 12 BC Jan 1 Tybi 9 Jan 3 = 742 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 11 11 BC Jan 1 Tybi 9 Jan 4 = 743 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 12 10 BC Jan 1 Tybi 9 Jan 4 = 744 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 12
9 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 9 Jan 4 = 745 AUC* Jan 1 Tybi 12 8 BC Jan 1 Tybi 10 Jan 4 = 746 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 7 BC Jan 1 Tybi 10 Jan 4 = 747 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 6 BC Jan 1 Tybi 10 Jan 4 = 748 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 5 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 10 Jan 4 = 749 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 4 BC Jan 1 Tybi 11 Jan 3 = 750 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 3 BC Jan 1 Tybi 11 Jan 3 = 751 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 2 BC Jan 1 Tybi 11 Jan 3 = 752 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 1 BC* Jan 1 Tybi 11 Jan 3 = 753 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 1 AD Jan 1 Tybi 12 Jan 2 = 754 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 2 AD Jan 1 Tybi 12 Jan 2 = 755 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 3 AD Jan 1 Tybi 12 Jan 2 = 756 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 4 AD* Jan 1 Tybi 12 Jan 2 = 757 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 5 AD Jan 1 Tybi 13 758 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 6 AD Jan 1 Tybi 13 759 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 7 AD Jan 1 Tybi 13 760 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 13 8 AD* Jan 1 Tybi 13 761 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 13 9 AD Jan 1 Tybi 14 762 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 14
10 AD Jan 1 Tybi 14 763 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 14 11 AD Jan 1 Tybi 14 764 AUC Jan 1 Tybi 14 12 AD* Jan 1 Tybi 14 765 AUC*Jan 1 Tybi 14 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.196.43 ( talk) 04:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
-- Chris Bennett 20:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I revised the portion of the article dealing with the Orthodox Church's continuing use of the Julian Calendar. First, I wanted to distinguish sharply between the adoption of the New Calendar in Orthodox countries by the civil administrations and its (partial) adoption by some national churches. Accordingly, I put the material on Orthodox usage into a separate paragraph. Second, the article, before I changed it, left the impression that most Orthodox Christians adopted the revised Julian Calendar after 1923. In fact, world-wide, the great majority of Orthodox Christians (> 80%?) use nothing but the Old Calendar. I do not wish to debate which usage is correct (this is not the page for such sterile discussions), but I think it is important to be accurate about the numbers. jloukidelis 2004-10-17
Your points are well taken, so by all means change what I have written.
My difficulties, as I stated, were otherwise, and I would have my changes on those points preserved. That is, first, let us draw a sharper distinction between the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar by the civil administrations in various Orthodox countries vs the adoption of the New Calendar by two (actually, I think it was three) Orthodox national churches; and, second, let's be clearer about the relative numbers of Orthodox Christians who follow the New vs the Old Calendar (without being drawn into a debate on the merits of one vs the other).
JL 2004-10-18
Several of the articles on months (e.g., January, March) link here when mentioning the switch of March as the first month to January as the first month, saying that the switch was implemented as part of the Julian calendar reform. But this article doesn't seem to say much about it, just mentioning that Quintilius was renamed to Iulius, etc. Can someone who knows more than I do about this subject add a bit about it? Acheron 06:08, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Wouldn't "Harbistmanoth" be "autumn month", rather than "grazing month" and "Lentzinmanoth" "spring month" rather than "lent month" or which sense would be the most common during that time? (I might be wrong, but IMHO, These translations seem to derive from English false friends).
There is a merge request sitting in the middle of the article Acoreus that could do with some attention. Anyone here with an interest in the Julian calendar that would be interested in attempting it? -- Randolph 21:50, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Looks like this page was slashdotted: [1] :)
cp
Mount Athos still uses it: there is a place in the United Kingdom which still uses it - anyone know where? Are there any other places where the Julian Calendar is still in use?
Is it an urban legend that a group of pre-1917 Russian athletes arrived too late for the Olympic Games because they were working on the Julian Calendar or did it actually happen?
Seems to me the two topics of leap years and month lengths could be merged. Also, i saw the mention of the Mens Intercalaris (i didnt know that - interesting) and thought maybe something should be mentioned in the leap years correction part as well. Anybody with knowledge thereof interested? -- The Minister of War 11:23, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Since you don't have a talk page of your own I have to reply to you here.
You wrote:
More than you do apparently.
Did you? It converts Julian day numbers to Julian dates before 1582 and Gregorian dates thereafter. That's a perfectly reasonable external link for this page. I have used it alot in my own research on the Julian equivalents to dates in the pre-Julian calendar.
I agree it's useful. My initial reaction to this was to leave it alone as a stub for a more comprehensive subsection on the week, since the current article doesn't discuss it, and it reasonably could, although the week isn't just an issue for the Julian calendar. However, I found that there is a perfectly good article on the history of the week which even mentions the Dominical letter. This is where your algorithm belongs. So clearly the right thing to do was to add a link to that article and to remove the stub you had added.
And I'm going to remove it again. If you want to add your comment about Thursday to the article on the week, go right ahead. That's the right place for it.-- Chris Bennett 02:26, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the link to Julian Date Converter is out of place here. Although it does marginally relate to the Julian calendar, that is not the primary focus of the page. The link title is Julian-Gregorian Converter, which is not the actual page title, and is deceptive. It does not convert between the Julian and Gregorian calendars, but between calendar dates and Julian Dates. Anybody attempting to use it for any modern dates will get the wrong value on the Julian calendar. Julian Dates are not dates on the Julian calendar. It is true that the page uses Julian calender for pre-Gregorian dates, but it only marginally relates to the article, is primarily focused on a different topic, there are other pages which actually convert between Julian and Gregorian calendars, and which convert between Julian Dates and the Julian calendar for any year, not just before 1582. There is already a link to the Formilab page, which actually has useful information about the Julian calendar. See also Calendrica, for example. Just because you find the link useful does not mean that it is appropriate for this article.
This link is appropriate for the Julian Day article, and can already be found there. It does not need to be here. -- Nike 09:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
While Garzo was quite right to remove the Trivia section here, it was still pretty funny. JHCC (talk) 17:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
This article refers to the Gregorian calender, which doesn't have a page. To create a context for the Julian calender it would be helpful to readers if someone created a page for the Gregorian calender... I may if I have time in the next few weeks.
Nudas veritas 00:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Found this article quite interesting and most helpful. However, I had trouble understanding the math in one sentence. "This intercalary month was formed by inserting 22 days before the last five days of February, creating a 27-day month."
To me this sounds as if the original February only had 5 days. That can't be correct, so I must misunderstand the sentence and if I do so misunderstand, many others will, as well. Could you clarify? Thanks! Sporophyte 03:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Since Patrick's mailbox is overfull, I'm going to ask it here.
I'm wondering why you added this and whether it's going anywhere. Currently it just looks like a random fact, unrelated to anything else that's in the article. That makes it a candidate for deletion due to marginal relevance.
It might be a reasonable observation if the Julian calendar article had a section on dominical letters, but there is a perfectly good separate article on that.
If I don't hear a case for this by tomorrow I'm going to delete it.
-- Chris Bennett 00:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This isn't "technical information", this is currently just a bunch of numerical factoids, which don't belong in this type of article. I see you are responsible for adding the "similar" stuff to the Gregorian calendar article, which I don't normally monitor. These are rather more developed, but they are equally unfocussed.
It looks like what you want to do is to write something about algorithms for generating valid calendars. That might be an interesting addition, or (probably better) an interesting separate article. But I think you need to change your approach, if that's your goal.
-- Chris Bennett 21:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It isn't basic information, its a factoid. Give it a context, a theme and a purpose and there might be something there. Right now it has no relevance to the rest of the article, which is about the structure and history of the Julian calendar. Consider it gone.
-- Chris Bennett 03:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm baffled by this date change - this article mentions Founder's Day on 21st April? What is that? According to http://personal.ecu.edu/mccartyr/caesar.html - in 153BC the previous start of year was March 25th. This article: http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Egypt/ptolemies/chron/roman/chron_rom_cal.htm which seems very good holds that the previous date was Ides of March (which is the 15th March), or (controversially) May 1st. Anyone got evidence for dates or can confirm the dates given in the tynedale article? Thanks, Steve
My feeling is that this is somehow relevant to Easter, as Roman Calendar March 15th is very close to Gregorian March 20-21. Did the fixed date Ides not fall on the Equinox? May 1st is also a festival, of course. This April date I am sure have seen before but in a different context in relation to Bede and the Gregorian Calendar. Was the point of the change of calendar that March 15th was no longer the Equinox? Thanks for that article, it's made a lot of things much clearer. My educated guess would be that the previous start of year was on or close to a festival. Steve
Just as a piece of information for anyone else investigating, I had read that Julius Caesar was making use of the superior Egyptian calendar, but according to the article on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_calendar their calendar was not solar or lunar but worked from Sirius. It does seem likely that he was making use of their calendar, however.
The above is not true. For example Charles I was executed on January 30 1648 Old Style and January 30 1649 New Style. New Style does not mean that the date is under the Gregorian Calendar, rather the year is adjusted to the January 1 instead of what ever start of year was used in contemporary documents. But the Julian calender month and day date is taken as the New Style date until the country where the event took place changed to the Gregorian calender. -- Philip Baird Shearer 01:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I added some lines concerning the Berber calendar, which is used in Nortern Africa. If someone wishes to add something about it (the relevant article is missing), you can look at the it.wiki article (which is a featured article). -- Vermondo 12:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The way the "Month lengths" section is written now, it leads the reader to believe that the theory by "scholar Sacrobosco" is the currently accepted theory, until it mentions that this is "certainly wrong" at the end of the section. If I hear no objections I'll attempt to restructure that section to make it clear from the start that the widely repeated theory is considered wrong. -- Romanski 18:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The case disproving Sacrobosco could use clarification. Most urgently, the point regarding Note #2 ("First, a wall painting of a Roman calendar predating the Julian reform has survived,[2] "). This points to an image file which has no explanation connected to it (thus, the user cannot collaborate the evidence). Morever, judging from http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/RomanCalendar/ and http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/RomanCalendar/romecbib.html the image is not of a pre-Julian reform calendar, but of a post-Julian reform calendar. From the latter page, for example, "The calendar represented here is from the heyday of the Empire, when the Julian calendar was well-established." Imboot 05:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
. August has 29 days, pre Julian reform. The only surviving pre-Julian calendar is "Fasti Antiates Maiores". It doesn't look like that's the one you are linking to... Imboot 05:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
According to Augustus, Sex. had 31 days before the name change. Readers can easily wrongly come away with a wrong understanding (after reading the bit that calls Sacrobosco erroneous) if the timing of the change in Sex. from 29 to 31 is not explained clearly.
Finally, it would also be helpful if the image at Roman_calendar is also labeled as F.A.M. Imboot 07:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The basis of the Julian calendar is the sidereal year - the orbital period of earth around the sun. The idea of earth orbiting around the sun has been known to the ancient Egyptian astronomers. Later it has been inherited by the Pythagoreans, and has been quite prevalent among them. Later in 3rd century BC this idea had set foundations of ancient Hellenic mathematics doctrine, especially that of Aristarchus of Samos, who is considered a predecessor of Nicolaus Copernicus.
At the time of creation of the Julian calendar (46 BC), the theory of Aristachus has been prevalent among the astronomers and scientists. Hence it is no wonder that Sosigenes of Alexandria and other creators of Julian calendar have used the time required for one complete revolution of the earth about the sun, relative to the fixed stars, i.e. a sidereal year, as a basis of the Julian year. This real astronomic unit has become a pattern for the Julian calendar.
In that respect, the Julian calendar is heliocentric, while the Gregorian is geocentric. In the calendar reformation, the Roman Catholic Church initiators were persistent followers of Ptolemy geocentric system, and have used the tropical year (the time needed for a full revolution of sun about the earth) as an absolute unit. The very idea of existence of the sidereal year has been declared a heresy by the Roman Catholic Church, and its acceptance had hardly theoretical consequences (for example, destinies of Giordano Bruno and Galileo Galilei).
The Gregorian calendar project received negative evaluations from astronomers of that time such as Michael Maestlin and Anders Celsius, and has been graded as "meaningless" by the universities of Vienna and Sorbonne. ~ Mkol 14:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
What do these links mean? Are they vandalism?
http://www.enigmasdabiblia.com/
http://cronologia.enigmasdabiblia.com/
62.1.230.209 16:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
In his Opus Maius, Roger Bacon advocated reforming the Julian calendar because during his life time the vernal equinox was already nine days ahead of March 21st (the vernal equinox decreed by the Council of Nicea). Since the Wikipedia article on Roger Bacon references and links to the Julian calendar article, should not a reciprocal link be included? And perhaps some note that Roger Bacon realized the errors in the Julian calendar and the problem of celebrating Easter on the correct day. He was disciplined and largely ignored or suppressed by his superiors for his ideas and teachings.
Best wishes, Jon Moss 18:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi there... I have NO idea what I'm doing so I'm sorry if this comment comes out screwy or if this isn't in the right place. Right then, having prefaced it, onto my question!! I am interested in finding out more information about the Charlemagne calendar... did it replace the Julian calendar for a time, or run along beside it? And does anyone have any references for more information on the calendar Charlemagne set up (as in, why he changed the month's names, etc.)? I have looked in the article on Charlemagne but there is no mention of him changing the calendar.
122.148.138.178 12:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC) Cadence
Recent edits have challenged the statement that the last year named after consular eponyms was 541, the year the consulate was abolished.
I haven't looked at any source data for this period. I thought the statement was almost tautologous. I don't find either proposed edit satisfactory because they raise unanswered questions. If eponymous dating continued after 541, who was the eponym? And when was eponymous dating abandoned? We ought to be able to do better than "a few years later", even if it's only to say that the "last known" eponymous year is XYZ. -- Chris Bennett 14:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Some remarks. First, Julian did not reserve the consulate for the emperor. Just the opposite: before him the consul had to pay large sum of his own money for games to be held. Julian abolished this tradition. But since the change was unpopular, there were no candidates to become consuls and as such be associated with the reform.
About the book. It is I.A. Klimshin, "Notes on our calendar". The chapter named "Year-counting by consuls". The translation of the paragraph about Leo is Successors of the creator of Constantinople's Sophia restored the custom to declare themselves consuls 1st January and throw money to people as it was used before. Hence year-counting "post consulatum" continued until IXth century. It was only emperor Leo the Wise (886-912 AD) who issued a decree finally prohibiting to count years by consuls.-- Dojarca 08:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a few questions regarding 46 BC (the "last year of confusion" – but I am still confused). Is the following lost in antiquity, or is there a way to get this kind of detail?:
1. What were the names of the two temporary months added between November and December?
2. What were the actual lengths for these two months (i.e., how does 22-23-22 split into two months)?
3. What were the naming conventions for all those one-time days within those two months?
4. Where did they add the one-time-adjustment (the 23-days added to the 28-day February of 46 BC)? Should I assume that the action followed the practice for ntercalaris years (which you so eloquently described in the first paragraph of the "Motivation" section)? If so, the 23 days were added "between" the 24th and 25th. Alternatively, were they added a month-end (i.e., after the 28th day)?
5. What were the naming conventions for these 23 additional days added to February in 46 BC? I am sure that they could not use the "a.d.VI.bis.Kal.Mar." designation twenty-three times. Although it was a one-time deal, there must have been some kind of naming convention. If they followed the naming convention for prior (pre-47 BC ntercalaris years – I am still clueless as to what they called them. So, if anyone knows – that would be super!
355 days in 47 BC. 355+22+23+22+23=445 days in 46 BC. 355+2+2+2+1+1+1+1=365 days in 45 BC. Cool! (See, he can be taught! <grin>)
Great, wonderful, exceptional article! Your hard work is appreciated. — Tesseract501 22:25, 14 August 2007 (EST)
I am inserting the following on two discussion pages: "Julian calendar" and "Roman calendar."
I appreciate all the scholarly effort that went into the writing of the "Julian calendar" and the Roman calendar" pages. I particularly appreciate your commitment in keeping other contributors focused on the parameters of the articles. It is refreshing to see pages that keep the focus on the topic at hand, instead of including satellite issues that are covered in other Wiki articles.
I do have two questions. They are concerning the calendars dealing with the Julian Reform period. I.e., the actual reform period dealing with the year 45 BC, and the base-line year of 47 BC – without detailing the 47 BC data, we are left to deduce the reform-period’s additions, modifications, and deletions). Hence, after reading both articles, my lack of deductive reasoning has me derailed.
Question #1 – my concern is regarding two monhs (Quintilis and Sextilis - July and August). The "Roman calendar" article indicates a pre-Julian Quintilis with a 31-day duration and a Sextilis of 29 days). How do we resolve this against the adjustments indicated on the "Julian calendar" article? I.e., 2-day adjustment (addition) in 45 BC for Quintilis; and, no adjustment for Sextilis.
The following shows the (753 BC?)
355-day calendar that resides on the "Roman calendar" page. I have added notations at the end of the months, showing the 45 BC adjustments that are referenced on the "Julian calendar" article. Read my notation on the Quintilis and Sextilis lines. Based on the two articles, I assume the following:
Question #2 – the "Roman calendar" article indicates, "When Julius Caesar added a day to September, he did not add it to the end of the month. Rather, the new day that was added was the day after the Ides:
The "Julian calendar" article indicates, "Macrobius states that the extra days were added immediately before the last day of each month to avoid disturbing the position of the established Roman fasti (days prescribed for certain events) relative to the start of the month. However, since Roman dates after the Ides of the month counted down towards the start of the next month, the extra days had the effect of raising the initial value of the count of the day after the Ides."
So, which article is correct (or is it that the historical sources disagree: Macrobius, and the unreferenced source on the "Roman calendar" page)?
Or, is this apparent disagreement concerning September alone (i.e., were the adjustment added the-day-after-Idus for September, but the end-of-month for other months)? The naming conventions that I have seen for September run consistently from Idus thorugh month-end.
Or, are they both correct? Was the September addition made by Caesar, as referenced in the "Roman calendar" article, something that predates 45 BC? Was this omething Julius did to September BEFORE the Julian period. E.g., September 47, 48, or 49 BC, or even earlier. If so, it might be worthwhile to clarify this in the article.
Thanks again for sharing all the great information that exists on the two pages. You have pulled together a truckload of valuable information from dozens of sources. Great job at bringing it all together in clear and thoughtful articles.
By the way, I would love to see listed details (month-name and day break-outs) for the year 46 BC too – but that’s just because I love lists. You know, in your spare time <grin>
— Tesseract501 00:05, 15 August 2007 (EST)
"Note that as a consequence of change of New Year, 1 January 1751 to 24 March 1751 were non-existent dates in England."
I've understood that England did both the first-of-the-year change and the adoption of the Gregorian calendar in the same year: a few months apart in 1752. If the above sentence is correct, then I think it needs some further explanation. Thanks. -- Hordaland ( talk) 11:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Justinian II was declared consul:
Hic depositus est Caedual, qui et Petrus, rex Saxonum, sub die XII Kalendarum Maiarum, indictione II; qui uixit annos plus minus XXX, imperante domno Iustiniano piissimo Augusto, anno eius consulatus IIII, pontificante apostolico uiro domno Sergio papa anno secundo. [9]-- Dojarca ( talk) 04:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Much confusion has been created by two oft-repeated fallacies about this reform. The first is that Augustus changed the lengths of the months. About this, more later. The second relates to the way intercalation was handled in the reform.
In the old system, the most simple adjustment was the insertion of Intercalaris after 23 February (the Terminalia). This meant that the following days disappeared from the calendar: the 24th (a.d. VI Kal. Mart.), the 25th (a.d. V Kal. Mart.), the 26th (a.d. IV Kal. Mart.), the 27th (a.d. III Kal. Mart.), and the 28th (Prid. Kal. Mart.). They reappeared, however, with their attendant festivals, at the end of the following month.
Thus the 23rd of Intercalaris was a.d. VI Kal. Mart., the 24th a.d. V Kal. Mart., the 25th a.d. IV Kal. Mart., the 26th a.d. III Kal. Mart., and the 27th Prid. Kal. Mart. For an explanation of the Roman dating system, see the article Roman calendar. The festival of Regifugium, normally 24 February, transferred to 23 Intercalaris. All Caesar did was abolish Intercalaris and replace it with a single extra day in the same position, i.e. immediately after the Terminalia. <ref> "Lastly, in consideration of the quarter of a day, which he regarded as completing the true year, he established the rule that, at the end of every four years, a single day should be intercalated, where the month had been hitherto inserted, that is, immediately after the terminalia; which day is now called the bissextum." Censorinus, The Natal Day.</ref> The five days which had hitherto been transferred to Intercalaris then followed.
Thus in leap years the sequence became:
a.d. VII Kal. Mart. (23 Feb.); a.d. bis VI Kal. Mart. (or a.d. VI Kal. Mart. posteriorem) (24 Feb.); a.d. VI Kal. Mart. (or a.d. VI Kal. Mart. priorem) (25 Feb.); a.d. V Kal. Mart. (26 Feb.); a.d. IV Kal. Mart. (27 Feb.); a.d. III Kal. Mart. (28 Feb.); and Prid. Kal. Mart. (29 Feb.).
Our system of numbering days in order from the beginning of the month dates from the late middle ages, although the Roman Catholic Church did not adopt it until late in the twentieth century. That is why, in living memory, the feast of St Matthias (a.d. VI Kal. Mart.) was observed on 24 February in ordinary years and 25 February in leap years.
Some people have gone to great lengths to set up the case that in leap years it was 25 February which was intercalated, appealing to obviously unreliable sources. <ref> Celsus 39, cited in the Digest of Justinian 50.16.98. [1] [10]. In this sentence the redactor claims that if someone is born on 1 March in a leap year his birthday falls six days earlier! In 98. [2] he says "It is, however, established that there are twenty - eight days in the intercalary month." (There were 27). </ref> Reference is then made to an inscription of the year 168 AD, which states that a temple was dedicated on the fifth of the calends of March of that year, which followed the bissextile day. <ref>Roscoe Lamont, "The Roman Calendar and its reformation by Julius Caesar" [11], Popular Astronomy '27' (1919) (pp. 583 - 595 (at p. 589)). The reference is the second article in the hyperlink; its last page is here.</ref>
This is perfectly correct. A.d. V Kal. Mart. follows a.d. VI Kal. Mart., which is duplicated in leap years (AD 168 was a leap year). That is why it was called the bissextum (English, bissextile).
To close the case, when the question came before the Roman judges they decided that, of the duplicated days, the intercalation was the one labelled posteriore (or bis), which separated the normally consecutive festivals of Terminalia and Regifugium.<ref> Mommsen: Roman Chronology.</ref>
As the written evidence of intercalation between 23/24 February cannot be explained away it is then claimed "In later times, however, the relative position of the two days was sometimes reversed." If this had happened it would have been unique in recorded history. People do not tinker with calendars in this fashion - they are imposed by the state. No details are offered of when, where, why and by whom the alleged reversal took place. The Roman Catholic Church is specifically mentioned, but examination of old church calendars shows that intercalation was always between 23/24 February.<ref>The Roman calendar and its reformation by Julius Caesar (op.cit., p. 590).</ref>
The inescapable inference is that intercalation between 23/24 February was universal and unbroken. A similar evidential situation arises in relation to the lengths of the months, which will be considered shortly.
Material inserted into the body of the article by an anonymous user 217.169.37.146 moved to the Talk page -- Chris Bennett ( talk) 15:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)]
Why should Augustus have any problem with a market day coinciding with the Regifugium? Such conjunctions will have been plentiful in the past; and both Dio and Macrobius expressly mention market day conjunctions which WERE actively avoided, but the Regifugium is not among them. So perhaps the effect of the 48-hr day was also the aim; to keep the sequence of nundinal days stable. Lepidus appears to have sought the same thing (or at any rate done it) with his triennial intercalation, but Caesar didn't. Appietas ( talk) 12:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand the mechanics (calendric nor psychological) of shifting a dire omen attested as Kal.Jan. to Regifugium (especially when new year's day of the sacral calendar was Kal.Mart., rather than Regifugium)and find this the weakest part of your otherwise excellent analysis.
It occurs to me that Dio's data re 44CE is met if your model was initially applied (in 4CE) but subsequently changed (for Feb 12, 20, 28, 36, 44, etc.) in the nundinal G leap year so that in those years (unlike the nundinal C leap years; 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, etc.) the bissextil was included in the market week sequence (thus changing the letter of the market day), but the extra day subsequently reversed out of the sequence later in the year (perhaps by counting 30-31 December as a single market week day) or in Feb of the following year (by counting Terminalia and Regifugium in the regular year as a single market week day?). Appietas ( talk) 20:22, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
You don't see any ref. to the "old" Kal.Jan. superstition after 41 BC owing to the meagerness of the sources, but especially because it wasn't really an old superstition at all; it was a novel (and bogus) invention of Lepidus to save face in the Caesarian context, as shown by Dio's account which attributes several qualities to the Kal.Jan. nundinal conjunction which it did not possess even according to Dio's own record (i.e. the nundinal Kal.Jan. of 52).
All the more reason to doubt that the community cared about Lepidus' bogus omen, and above all that Imp.Caesar would have treated such a Lepidan invention with any respect, when he treated the man himself (after 35 BC) with loathing and bitter contempt.
The importance of Lepidus' action is that in addition to the (bogus) stated purpose of his modification of Caesarian intercalation, it also prevented the occurrence of a much more likely and really ancient conjunction omen which the community truly feared; as did Lepidus himself, while not wishing to publically admit the thing owing to its political nature and Caesar's contempt for it.
Your appeal to signore Occam is circular. IF Augustus transferring calendric Kal.Jan. to the Regifugium, and thenceforth avoiding any nundinal conjunction with Regifugium, was a sufficient act of omen avoidance and assuaged community superstitions and fears, THEN you are quite correct that there is no need to posit any other explanation of the Dio 60.24.7 and Celsus ap.Iustinian 50.16.98. However in my view this is a religious nonsense which wouldn't and couldn't work. I also doubt whether the one-off movement of the market day in Feb within the sextile biduum but no change for the rest of the year would be sufficient to catch Dio's attention, and prefer a version (any version) according to which the market day designation was shifted for most of the year. The beauty of the nundinal G/nonal conjunction thesis is that it seems to accommodate all the evidence very well, and the only major matter not in sources which needs to be assumed is that Macrobius' account of the avoidance of the conjunction of all market days with every nones became (sometime during 5th-3rd centuries BC) focussed alone or especially upon the nundinal G day; probably owing to its convergent position with the nones of the first month of the traditional Kal.Mart. year and calendar. However this is probably not the proper forum for such a debate, and we may as well resume it on the RF list (where it began some months ago), if you have the time and inclination. I'm especially interested in investigating the extent to which avoiding nundinal-G/nonal conjunctions may have contributed to the pattern of intercalation in the period before the introduction of the Kal.Jan.year. It may be a key to determining correct intercalary years until 154, after which it was excluded permanently from "play" so long as the year remained 355 days. I also think that this exclusion was deliberate and that one of the main reasons why the Kal.Jan. year was never changed (a burning issue in itself; rarely or never addressed) was to permanently avoid any convergence of nones and nundinal G, forever and ever. Perhaps because it was a religious imperative that began to interfere with the more "modern" and pressing reasons for the 153 reform (i.e. logistical needs of imperial rule, and desires to keep the calendar year solar aligned and beginning close to the winter solstice). Appietas ( talk) 09:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
1) There is no Roman text in existence with a date of "a.d. VI Kal.Mart. posteriorem". The only text to use the term "posterior" in connection with the bissextile is Celsus, and what he says is quoted above. This supposed "date" does not exist.
2) Ideler's discussion of this point can be read at [16] and [17]. Its in German of course, but it's pretty straightforward. Two points are clear:
3) The feast day of St Mathias is not evidence for the position of the bissextile in the first three centuries AD. There is no reason to believe that this feast existed at that time, and very good reason to believe it didn't. Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say in its article on Ecclesiastical Feasts at [18]:
Whether or not the church calendar is a "continuous record", the fact of the matter is that it does not go back far enough to be relevant.
On the other matter: The "28-day intercalary month" should be debated in the Roman calendar article, not here. But I can't help noting that, when Mr Anonymous first commented on Celsus, he specifically pointed out that Celsus' 28 days was an error for 27. I agreed -- and ever since he has insisted Celsus was correct after all. He gave no reason for changing his mind, but it is completely clear that he has no knowledge of the literature beyond what is accessible through Wikipedia. Apparently he took this position because I didn't. -- Chris Bennett ( talk) 01:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Note to the Nameless One: All further communications to you on the 28-day intercalary month takes place on the Talk:Roman calendar page, where it belongs. -- Chris Bennett ( talk) 16:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
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