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*In the film, The Robe, she is played by Rosalind Ivan, making an inaccurate appearance as Tiberius' wife.
What sort of citation needed? In the film, The Robe (1953), Rosalind Ivan makes an uncredited apperance as Julia, playing Tiberius wife. True, Julia was married to Tiberius so I suppose it is not totally devoid from fact, but it is an anachronism because the story is set around the time of Tiberius' last years as emperor. In the film, Julia, puts in an appearance telling Tiberius that Diana (another chaarcter in the film) is "too good for Caligula" and Tiberius mentions his "30 years with Julia"... Julia was divorced from Tiberius in 2 BC and she died in the same year Tiberius came to power in 14 AD, ergo she couldn't have been walking around complaining about her own grandson when she has been dead twenty-odd years. -- Camblunt100 16:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Only 11 years too late but here's the solution - say it is an "anachronistic" appearance rather than "inaccurate". --nobodyknowsher 21:47, 19 September 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarlettpeony ( talk • contribs)
Hello. There is evidence, in Nicolaus ([Fragmenta der Griechischein Historiker] 2 A: 421-2) and Josephus (Antiquities 16.2.2) also mentions the pardon, (It is also mentioned in the recent biography, Julia Augusti by Elaine Fantham and The Ages of Homer: A Tribute to Emily Townsend Vermeule edited by Jane B Carter, Sarah P Morris,) that during Julia's marriage to Agrippa, she was travelling to meet Agrippa where he was campaigning and she was caught up in a flash flood in Ilium and she almost drowned. Agrippa was furious, and in his anger he fined the locals 100,000 drachmae-- he so angry not one could face him and in the end it took Nicolaus and Herod the Great to recieve pardon from Agrippa. I was wondering if it should be mentioned in her biography. -- 80.193.32.171 16:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Everyone who has been waiting for this getting excited? I'm also happy that someone has finally sat down a written a story about her history. The blurb on Amazon.co.uk says the following:
This scholarly biography details the life of an extraordinary woman in an extraordinary society. "Julia Augusti" studies the life of the only daughter of Augustus, the first Roman emperor, and the father who sacrificed his daughter and her children in order to establish a dynasty. Studying the abundant historical evidence available, this biography studies each stage of Julia's life in remarkable detail: her childhood - taken from her divorced mother to become part of a complex and unstable family structure; her youth - set against the brilliant social and cultural life of the new Augustan Rome; her marriages - as tools for Augustus' plans for succession; and Julia's violation of her father's moral regime, and the betrayal of her absent husband. Reflecting new attitudes, and casting fresh light on their social reality, this outstanding biography will delight, entertain and inform anyone interested in this engaging Classical figure. (Taken from Amazon.co.uk)
I have a list of the parts there are in the book here (Taken from Routledge):
I'm seriously looking forward to getting this book. I asked for it for my birthday and my mother was more then happy to get it for me. She says that she wouldn't mind reading it either. -- Sophie-Lou 19:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know for sure how Julia felt about marrying a man who was more then twice her age and by that point was very old (Older then her own father by a year!) My theroy is that she couldn't have been happy by the idea, but seeing as she travelled with him all over the place and she gave birth to five children by him in nine years, which is like one child every two years, they couldn't have been on bad terms either. What do you all think?-- Camblunt100 18:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's my two cents:
I think that the way people decribe Julia is unfair. Sure she may have had a couple of affairs (Though I, Claudius seriously over dramatised it) but then so was everyone back then. You can call Julia any name under the sun you wanted but yet her track record was nothing compared to what some women got up to back then. There was barely a woman in Rome, with the exception of a few, that wasn't doing it. Julia was only caught, that was her mistake. She was also a very kind and warm hearted person, unlike most of the women back then who could be either boring or cruel. Her faults included being like her father, she was snoobish, high and mighty, a spoilt, stuck up little madam... But she wasn't a horrible person, just a human being.
At the time, people weren't very nice about Julia and her alleged affairs despite the fact EVERYONE did it. Personally, I feel every bit of sympathy for Julia and none whatsoever for her father, Augustus. His treatment of Julia was far to extreme, leaving her on a barren island for five years before exiling her to a decent place. Augustus himself was just as bad and in most cases worse. His infidelities were the big gossip. He tried to promote that whole family, chastity woman thing but it fell on it's face not because of what Julia did but because of what he was like. How two-faced can you get? If you ask me, the way Julia behaved was just proof of what a wonderful role-model Augustus was. Her father's daughter.
He was the greatest emperor who ever lived, but the treatment he gave his daughter was way over the boarder of "out of order." How could any father treat his own daughter like that? The little girl who kept despite the fact he divorced her mother just hours after her birth, he kept and the little girl who he loved so much? It's shocking to me, I don't see why she should have been so harshly punished then or now.
That's my 2 cents.
Written by Cam Blunt
Well, you have to remember that most ancient historians had a tendancy to overdramatize events. Consider that we're talking about a considerably popular princess under a considerably popular leader, and then recall that celebrity of this sort is entirely alien to the Roman world. It's why, if Augustus had it his way, the imperial family would have kept a low profile as far as they were able to. There are always scandalmongers, and there's always scuttlebutt and rumor. Some of it is the entirely innocent idle speculation of the masses, and some of it is maliciously developed by the regime's enemies. Either way, tales abounded and the historians--as they tended to do--repeated those embellished stories. It didn't matter to them whether they could be verified, they were just repeating what they'd heard.
It's clear, though, that there was something else going on behind the scenes. The details behind her exile are extremely sparse, and all we know is that she was involved with some choice enemies of the principate. There is much more to her story than meets the eye. Unfortunately, the contemporary historians of the day haven't done much to flesh out her character as a person and there's a lack of any serious modern biographical research as a consequence. As far as I'm aware, she's only ever had a single book written about her--and that book has not yet even been published. -- Jello 23:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
As unsatisfactory as the ancient sources (mostly Dio Cassius and Suetonius, I assume?) on Augustus's reign may be, any responsible history has to base itself on what the actual historians of the period have to say, because they're our only source of information. I'd also suggest that Suetonius is surely the least respected historian of the early Emperor. Tacitus is by far the most respected (although the Annals don't really get going until after Augustus' death). I'm not completely sure of Dio Cassius vs. Suetonius, but the former seems to be seen as somewhat better. john k 20:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but WP:NOR... If you haven't got a reliable source for your contention, its not OK to infer it by reason of your own understanding of Roman antiquity. Wikipedia keeps to verifiable sources. FYI, I updated Lex Julia and Lex Papia Poppaea somewhat to make these articles more coherent (but both articles still need work I suppose). -- Francis Schonken 12:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Now adding the {{ fiction}} template to the article, as all previous efforts to keep fact and fiction separated in this article were unsuccesful, e.g.:
-- Francis Schonken 07:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
--Junillus, 17 April 2006.
I think Julia the Elder starts to look very much OK now, and I think we have to thank user:81.190.70.164 for that very much. I'd really like to thank that user. I'd give him a free subscription to the Wikipedia encyclopedia... well, joking, wikipedia is free for everyone (just inviting to take a login). Anyway, I think the {{ fiction}} template can probably be removed now.
I extended Julia Caesaris a bit with the children of Drusus t-Y and Germanicus. But feel free to update any of the articles of the Roman women, with facts found in ancient writers, or other historians. If doubting a particular fact for which no reference is given it is always possible to add the {{ fact}} template at the end of such doubtful statement, inviting others to give an appropriate reference (if there is none, just remove the statement). See e.g. Vipsania Julia, still having one such {{ fact}} template (regarding remarrying during exile), and Pontius Pilate's wife where I removed a whole section yesterday: I had tagged it "citations missing" some weeks ago; then yesterday someone removed these tags without providing any additional reference. The game had taken long enough I thought, so I erased the section. Seemed there was not a single reliable reference. -- Francis Schonken 09:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The Prosopographia Imperii Romani ("635 IVLIA") mentions no second marriage for Vipsania Julia. It sounds like modern fiction.
21.04.2006
81.190.70.164
The article says,
I may be missing something, but... How was Germanicus the nephew of Julia? Germanicus's father was Nero Claudius Drusus (the son of Livia by her first husband, unrelated to Julia or Augustus); his mother was Antonia Minor, daughter of Octavia Minor by Mark Antony (and thus Julia's first cousin). So Germanicus was, via his mother, a first cousin of Julia's, once removed--but was not Julia's nephew, and was in any case entirely unrelated to Agrippa. So Germanicus's relation to Julia isn't relevant to this paragraph (since the issue is Caligula's alleged dislike at being related to the low-born Agrippa).
Or am I missing something? I gather that there was an unsubstantiated rumor that Drusus was Livia's illegitimate child by Augustus, which would make him Julia's half-brother (and would make Germanicus her nephew)--is that what's being talked about here? Or perhaps that Germanicus is the adopted son of Tiberius, the adopted son of Augustus (and thus Julia's nephew by adoption). But either of those seems pretty far-fetched, and in any case, they'd have nothing to do with the issue raised there (Caligula's unhappiness about Agrippa).
I'm inclined to just yank out the phrase "and her nephew Germanicus" from the quoted bit. Any objections? -- Narsil 23:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Julia was probably married to Marcellus in the early part of 23 BCE at the age of 15, not 14. I discovered this upon reviewing Cassius Dio who states that Augustus was too ill to preside over his own daughter's wedding and Agrippa had to officiate. The only time Augustus was too ill to have carried out his fatherly duties was in the early part of 23 BCE, during his life threatening illness.
Per Cassius Dio, Julia was educated in the manner of a man and Augustus favored marrying such educated girls off at a later age than customary. He may have married Julia at an earlier age than he planned because he was afraid he would die and he wanted to make sure his daughter was provided for, otherwise, he would have postponed the wedding until he felt well enough.
Also, I believe that Marcellus died earlier than September of 23 BCE. He probably contracted typhus after the Tiber flooded in late Spring of 23 BCE. Julia may have only been married to him for a matter of months, rather than years, which explains why there were no children from this union.
Gtwilight ( talk) 18:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I realize that this has been discussed so many times that people are sick of it. Nevertheless, there is a composition flow problem with the article when, having called Octavian "Augustus" for the first part of the article, we admit that he wasn't really "Augustus" yet and revert to Octavian. This sounds funny. And Augustus is just a title anyway. Can't we use both at the beginning and then use whatever one is suitable later? Student7 ( talk) 02:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
What's the source for placing her birthday at 30 October? -- Jello ( talk) 20:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Julia the Elder article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
*In the film, The Robe, she is played by Rosalind Ivan, making an inaccurate appearance as Tiberius' wife.
What sort of citation needed? In the film, The Robe (1953), Rosalind Ivan makes an uncredited apperance as Julia, playing Tiberius wife. True, Julia was married to Tiberius so I suppose it is not totally devoid from fact, but it is an anachronism because the story is set around the time of Tiberius' last years as emperor. In the film, Julia, puts in an appearance telling Tiberius that Diana (another chaarcter in the film) is "too good for Caligula" and Tiberius mentions his "30 years with Julia"... Julia was divorced from Tiberius in 2 BC and she died in the same year Tiberius came to power in 14 AD, ergo she couldn't have been walking around complaining about her own grandson when she has been dead twenty-odd years. -- Camblunt100 16:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Only 11 years too late but here's the solution - say it is an "anachronistic" appearance rather than "inaccurate". --nobodyknowsher 21:47, 19 September 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarlettpeony ( talk • contribs)
Hello. There is evidence, in Nicolaus ([Fragmenta der Griechischein Historiker] 2 A: 421-2) and Josephus (Antiquities 16.2.2) also mentions the pardon, (It is also mentioned in the recent biography, Julia Augusti by Elaine Fantham and The Ages of Homer: A Tribute to Emily Townsend Vermeule edited by Jane B Carter, Sarah P Morris,) that during Julia's marriage to Agrippa, she was travelling to meet Agrippa where he was campaigning and she was caught up in a flash flood in Ilium and she almost drowned. Agrippa was furious, and in his anger he fined the locals 100,000 drachmae-- he so angry not one could face him and in the end it took Nicolaus and Herod the Great to recieve pardon from Agrippa. I was wondering if it should be mentioned in her biography. -- 80.193.32.171 16:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Everyone who has been waiting for this getting excited? I'm also happy that someone has finally sat down a written a story about her history. The blurb on Amazon.co.uk says the following:
This scholarly biography details the life of an extraordinary woman in an extraordinary society. "Julia Augusti" studies the life of the only daughter of Augustus, the first Roman emperor, and the father who sacrificed his daughter and her children in order to establish a dynasty. Studying the abundant historical evidence available, this biography studies each stage of Julia's life in remarkable detail: her childhood - taken from her divorced mother to become part of a complex and unstable family structure; her youth - set against the brilliant social and cultural life of the new Augustan Rome; her marriages - as tools for Augustus' plans for succession; and Julia's violation of her father's moral regime, and the betrayal of her absent husband. Reflecting new attitudes, and casting fresh light on their social reality, this outstanding biography will delight, entertain and inform anyone interested in this engaging Classical figure. (Taken from Amazon.co.uk)
I have a list of the parts there are in the book here (Taken from Routledge):
I'm seriously looking forward to getting this book. I asked for it for my birthday and my mother was more then happy to get it for me. She says that she wouldn't mind reading it either. -- Sophie-Lou 19:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know for sure how Julia felt about marrying a man who was more then twice her age and by that point was very old (Older then her own father by a year!) My theroy is that she couldn't have been happy by the idea, but seeing as she travelled with him all over the place and she gave birth to five children by him in nine years, which is like one child every two years, they couldn't have been on bad terms either. What do you all think?-- Camblunt100 18:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's my two cents:
I think that the way people decribe Julia is unfair. Sure she may have had a couple of affairs (Though I, Claudius seriously over dramatised it) but then so was everyone back then. You can call Julia any name under the sun you wanted but yet her track record was nothing compared to what some women got up to back then. There was barely a woman in Rome, with the exception of a few, that wasn't doing it. Julia was only caught, that was her mistake. She was also a very kind and warm hearted person, unlike most of the women back then who could be either boring or cruel. Her faults included being like her father, she was snoobish, high and mighty, a spoilt, stuck up little madam... But she wasn't a horrible person, just a human being.
At the time, people weren't very nice about Julia and her alleged affairs despite the fact EVERYONE did it. Personally, I feel every bit of sympathy for Julia and none whatsoever for her father, Augustus. His treatment of Julia was far to extreme, leaving her on a barren island for five years before exiling her to a decent place. Augustus himself was just as bad and in most cases worse. His infidelities were the big gossip. He tried to promote that whole family, chastity woman thing but it fell on it's face not because of what Julia did but because of what he was like. How two-faced can you get? If you ask me, the way Julia behaved was just proof of what a wonderful role-model Augustus was. Her father's daughter.
He was the greatest emperor who ever lived, but the treatment he gave his daughter was way over the boarder of "out of order." How could any father treat his own daughter like that? The little girl who kept despite the fact he divorced her mother just hours after her birth, he kept and the little girl who he loved so much? It's shocking to me, I don't see why she should have been so harshly punished then or now.
That's my 2 cents.
Written by Cam Blunt
Well, you have to remember that most ancient historians had a tendancy to overdramatize events. Consider that we're talking about a considerably popular princess under a considerably popular leader, and then recall that celebrity of this sort is entirely alien to the Roman world. It's why, if Augustus had it his way, the imperial family would have kept a low profile as far as they were able to. There are always scandalmongers, and there's always scuttlebutt and rumor. Some of it is the entirely innocent idle speculation of the masses, and some of it is maliciously developed by the regime's enemies. Either way, tales abounded and the historians--as they tended to do--repeated those embellished stories. It didn't matter to them whether they could be verified, they were just repeating what they'd heard.
It's clear, though, that there was something else going on behind the scenes. The details behind her exile are extremely sparse, and all we know is that she was involved with some choice enemies of the principate. There is much more to her story than meets the eye. Unfortunately, the contemporary historians of the day haven't done much to flesh out her character as a person and there's a lack of any serious modern biographical research as a consequence. As far as I'm aware, she's only ever had a single book written about her--and that book has not yet even been published. -- Jello 23:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
As unsatisfactory as the ancient sources (mostly Dio Cassius and Suetonius, I assume?) on Augustus's reign may be, any responsible history has to base itself on what the actual historians of the period have to say, because they're our only source of information. I'd also suggest that Suetonius is surely the least respected historian of the early Emperor. Tacitus is by far the most respected (although the Annals don't really get going until after Augustus' death). I'm not completely sure of Dio Cassius vs. Suetonius, but the former seems to be seen as somewhat better. john k 20:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but WP:NOR... If you haven't got a reliable source for your contention, its not OK to infer it by reason of your own understanding of Roman antiquity. Wikipedia keeps to verifiable sources. FYI, I updated Lex Julia and Lex Papia Poppaea somewhat to make these articles more coherent (but both articles still need work I suppose). -- Francis Schonken 12:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Now adding the {{ fiction}} template to the article, as all previous efforts to keep fact and fiction separated in this article were unsuccesful, e.g.:
-- Francis Schonken 07:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
--Junillus, 17 April 2006.
I think Julia the Elder starts to look very much OK now, and I think we have to thank user:81.190.70.164 for that very much. I'd really like to thank that user. I'd give him a free subscription to the Wikipedia encyclopedia... well, joking, wikipedia is free for everyone (just inviting to take a login). Anyway, I think the {{ fiction}} template can probably be removed now.
I extended Julia Caesaris a bit with the children of Drusus t-Y and Germanicus. But feel free to update any of the articles of the Roman women, with facts found in ancient writers, or other historians. If doubting a particular fact for which no reference is given it is always possible to add the {{ fact}} template at the end of such doubtful statement, inviting others to give an appropriate reference (if there is none, just remove the statement). See e.g. Vipsania Julia, still having one such {{ fact}} template (regarding remarrying during exile), and Pontius Pilate's wife where I removed a whole section yesterday: I had tagged it "citations missing" some weeks ago; then yesterday someone removed these tags without providing any additional reference. The game had taken long enough I thought, so I erased the section. Seemed there was not a single reliable reference. -- Francis Schonken 09:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The Prosopographia Imperii Romani ("635 IVLIA") mentions no second marriage for Vipsania Julia. It sounds like modern fiction.
21.04.2006
81.190.70.164
The article says,
I may be missing something, but... How was Germanicus the nephew of Julia? Germanicus's father was Nero Claudius Drusus (the son of Livia by her first husband, unrelated to Julia or Augustus); his mother was Antonia Minor, daughter of Octavia Minor by Mark Antony (and thus Julia's first cousin). So Germanicus was, via his mother, a first cousin of Julia's, once removed--but was not Julia's nephew, and was in any case entirely unrelated to Agrippa. So Germanicus's relation to Julia isn't relevant to this paragraph (since the issue is Caligula's alleged dislike at being related to the low-born Agrippa).
Or am I missing something? I gather that there was an unsubstantiated rumor that Drusus was Livia's illegitimate child by Augustus, which would make him Julia's half-brother (and would make Germanicus her nephew)--is that what's being talked about here? Or perhaps that Germanicus is the adopted son of Tiberius, the adopted son of Augustus (and thus Julia's nephew by adoption). But either of those seems pretty far-fetched, and in any case, they'd have nothing to do with the issue raised there (Caligula's unhappiness about Agrippa).
I'm inclined to just yank out the phrase "and her nephew Germanicus" from the quoted bit. Any objections? -- Narsil 23:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Julia was probably married to Marcellus in the early part of 23 BCE at the age of 15, not 14. I discovered this upon reviewing Cassius Dio who states that Augustus was too ill to preside over his own daughter's wedding and Agrippa had to officiate. The only time Augustus was too ill to have carried out his fatherly duties was in the early part of 23 BCE, during his life threatening illness.
Per Cassius Dio, Julia was educated in the manner of a man and Augustus favored marrying such educated girls off at a later age than customary. He may have married Julia at an earlier age than he planned because he was afraid he would die and he wanted to make sure his daughter was provided for, otherwise, he would have postponed the wedding until he felt well enough.
Also, I believe that Marcellus died earlier than September of 23 BCE. He probably contracted typhus after the Tiber flooded in late Spring of 23 BCE. Julia may have only been married to him for a matter of months, rather than years, which explains why there were no children from this union.
Gtwilight ( talk) 18:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I realize that this has been discussed so many times that people are sick of it. Nevertheless, there is a composition flow problem with the article when, having called Octavian "Augustus" for the first part of the article, we admit that he wasn't really "Augustus" yet and revert to Octavian. This sounds funny. And Augustus is just a title anyway. Can't we use both at the beginning and then use whatever one is suitable later? Student7 ( talk) 02:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
What's the source for placing her birthday at 30 October? -- Jello ( talk) 20:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)