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The article Christianity and Judaism was nominated for deletion. The debate was closed on 03 October 2008 with a consensus to merge the content into Judeo-Christian. After further discussion, the merge was rejected. See discussion. |
One of the problelisted at the top of the article is that it deals with "multiple issues".
Does this mean that it ought to be split into several different articles, each dealing with a single issue?
Has anyone proposed the way in which it should be split, and given a list of the issues to be dealt with? SteveH ( talk) 23:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Given the lack of consensus on the meaning of the term and given that it is used currently in a variety of political contexts and not just in terms of theology, I think that a more helpful focus would be on the history of the term and the ideas represented by it in Europe in particular and how it was used by both philosemites and antisemites. A good source to look for the history of philosemitism and antisemitism and for a discussion of the role that the debate over Judaism's relationship with Christianity played in the Enlightenment's attitude towards Jews is Leon Poliakov's _The History of Anti-Semitism_. Another thing to consider is the way the term can be and often is used to deny any separate existence or uniqueness to Judaism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.136.102.201 ( talk) 14:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
There is an article on Creation according to the Book of Genesis that discusses creation. There is a suggestion now to rename it and give it a Biblical name that may overlap with the New Testamant. I think that will mix differing views, but not being an expert on Jewish views, clarifications on that will be helpful here: Talk:Creation_according_to_Genesis#Requested_move_.28as_a_way_to_resolve_every_reasonable_concern.29
Your comments will be appreciated. History2007 ( talk) 14:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Reading some of the above comments, I have the impression that many seem to question the validity of the term. This misses the point: The term itself is valid; individual uses of it may not be. (For instance, I originally landed on this page after reading a blog entry where someone explicitly equated "Judeo-Christian" with "Jewish Zionist", which is a gross misinterpretation of what the term means.)
There is sufficient and significant overlap, as well as a historical connection, which more than justifies the term, just like "Eurasian" or "Anglo-American" are perfectly valid terms.
Attack misuse of meaning, irrelevant use, misleading use---but leave the term it self alone. Michael Eriksson ( talk) 13:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The term "Judeo-christian" is a joke(Living Lie) or an oxymoron ,because if one Religion that is "Christianity" praises Jesus Christ as LORD, the other one that is "Judaism" curses Jesus and considering him to be a FALSE (IMPOSTER) Messiah and illegitimate son of a whore. How come then you keep deluding yourself and others by fusing these two contrasting religions into one homogenous false concept/term that is called "Judeo-Christianity" ? JUST LIKE ICE AND FIRE. Plus if both Christianity and Judaism are Middle Eastern Religions and NOT Western ,(both originated from what you call it Middle East), then how come both " Gentile " Christians west with those Ashkinazi " GOYIM " Jews of Europian and Russian descents, keep claiming these two religions to be western ? ? ! ! ! ! ! Do not you feel shame of yourself that your so call civilization is entirely being founded and enslaved by an alien "mythical traditional lore /Folklores" that belong only to those that you call them sand wogs ? ? ! ! ! ! !
Ashkenazim are of Israelite descent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.148.57.140 ( talk) 01:33, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Currently, the hatnote to this article reads:
But actually (and in my view, correctly), that isn't the scope of this article, as it presently stands.
This article is not really focussed on an analysis of the values Judaism and Christianity hold in common. Rathe (and in my view appropriately, given its title) it is a discussion of the history and use of the particular phrase Judeo-Christian itself.
At Talk:Christianity and Judaism (section: Hatnote, and focus of this article) I have suggested that that article should be re-focussed, to become the top-level introduction to all aspects of relationships and comparison between Christianity and Judaism -- including, but not necessarily limited to, what may be common ground between the two faiths; where the two faiths may differ, both broadly and in detail; and also the historical nature of relations between the two faiths. Much the role in fact that the articles Islam and Judaism and Christianity and Islam set themselves.
Further discussion of this proposal is probably best followed up on the Talk:Christianity and Judaism talkpage, to centralise it in one place.
However, I hope editors on this page would agree that it would be a more appropriate way to go forward. Jheald ( talk) 18:17, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
The term mostly exists so that closet Dominionists can call for Christian theocracy without calling it Christian theocracy. Instead they claim to be supporting the values held by multiple religions, despite the objective fact that Jewish and Christian moral traditions have many distinct differences. 24.214.230.66 ( talk) 22:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
I want to read more about this claim in the opening section: “ The term became widely used in the United States during the Cold War to suggest a unified American identity opposed to communism.” What is the source? Theologian and author Arthur A. Cohen is mentioned directly after, is he the source? Sorry for being thick? JonesyPHD ( talk) 16:04, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Because this statement is in the lead it summarizes material further down in the article. In this case, you'll find the attributions toward the bottom of the History section. Jno.skinner ( talk) 16:52, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
The premise that judeo-christian values are the fundamental moral values of the founding fathers is not a neutral premise, but a conclusion slipped in before the definition is addressed. I for one think the founding fathers as a whole shared moral values derived more from the roman and greek classics than the old testament. This is just one example. I think the article is pro-religion, and not neutral. Of course there is the oxymoron aspect as well. indeed the whole christian premise is that Christ brought a new and everlasting covenant based on his newly revealed moral values, and thereby separating permanently from the old values of the (jewish) old testament. Why else did He come? All in all, this article is not informative and should be stricken entirely.
1) What Judaism and Christianity call the "Ten Commandments" is not the same. There is a large (but not total) overlap in the verses for both, but the differences in numbering, inclusion, significance, meaning, scope, and actionability are far greater than the words being the same. Even the (apparent) Christian view that the "Ten Commandments" are standards of ethics is mismatched to the traditional Jewish views. Removing the example from the first sentence would probably be good.
2) The organisation of this article is extremely poor. History and usage of the term is spread throughout several sections. Political and historical concepts are scattered. The information presented in several sections, most notably "Culture Wars", lacks coherency.
3) What, exactly, is the focus of this article? Is the "Judeo-Christian concept" to be defined and discussed, or is the term "Judeo-Christian" defined and discussed? If the focus is the former, I would vote for removing this article. However, if the focus is on the term and its usage, it makes sense to keep it. Most of the problems seem to be from this ambiguity.
Elfwiki ( talk) 09:20, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
The article should either be moved to Judeo-Christianity or the first sentence should be changed so that it describes a noun. The article, at the moment, begins:
This clearly refers to the term Judeo-Christian as to an adjective.
Wikipedia is not a dictionary, therefore adjectives should not be used as catchwords. The article Jewish Christian begins with a similar sentence ("Jewish Christians is a term which appears in historical texts..."), also containing the words "is a term", but that refers to a noun, there. Hans Dunkelberg ( talk) 19:55, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Cut from article:
This is unsourced and its appearance seems designed to make the original point that the whole thing was cooked up in recent decades and/or is merely a political term of art. If there is a reliable source which says so, by all means locate it. Then put the claim back into the article. But it seemed out of place where it was. -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 04:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, not only it would have more concordancy if it was either "Judeo-Christianism (also Abrahamism)" or "Judeo-Christian (also Abrahamian)", but wouldn't a real synonym of Abrahamism necessarely be "Judeo-Christo-Mohammedan/Muslim"? -- Extremophile ( talk) 04:17, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
link to nothing, is it available somewhere else?
needs to be modified or removed I am short on time and very busy
T[{}]TVWVT 16:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttommy69 ( talk • contribs)
It was unnecessary to put in any references to either of the two cases mentioned in this section ("Marsh v. Chambers" (1983) and "Simpson v. Chesterfield County" (2003 and 2005). BUT, having added them, it is the duty of Wikipedia editors to do so with honesty. They have not done this and furthermore left out the most important legal point - the strengthing of a real legal definition for an "American Civil Religion".
The two cases are quite different, but they treated as if they are the same circumstance. TThis might be understandable if all that was available in regards to "Simpson v. Chesterfield County" were the Appellate court decision (which was after the District Court ruled in favor of Simpson in 2003). A great deal more information is available.
Read this for a real look at how this section of the article is quite biased.
http://www.pluralism.org/reports/view/101 http://pluralism.org/reports/view/126 http://www.religioustolerance.org/wicchest.htm
There comes a point at which leaving out information becomes a way of intentionally inserting bias. It is hard not to see this happening in this instance (unless you do not want to see what is in front of you).
FACT - "Simpson v. Chesterfield County" had been previously decided in favor of Simpson by the District Court. I was not even allowed to say that in an edit to the article. So much for neutrality at Wikipedia. Tell an unpopular truth, and you get told to go to the forums.
Again, this article handles "Simpson v. Chesterfield County" as being somehow the same as "Marsh v. Chambers" (1983). By mentioning them both in this manner, it is misleading. Yet the two are blurred together as if they are the same and they are not (far from it). The difference are important and relevant, especially as they lead, one step at a time, to a new legal concept in the USA - that of a legally accepted and defined "American Civil Religion". The US has an official religion now, as created by those two (very different) cases, and as reinforced by a number of other cases, since the 1983 decision. This new "American Civil Religion" also touches strongly on the concept of the Rise of the Radical Right in the USA (Conservatism, Fundamentalism) in the USA and its effects on changing the law of the land.
Previous to this, government was NEVER (as stated in the Bill of Rights) supposed to place its weight behind any specific religion or religious concept. However as of 1983, the concept of "Judeo-Christian" took on a legal meaning with the acceptance by the Supreme COurt of an "American Civil Religion". This was (and still is) big news.
- How are the cases different (why is this important)?
"Marsh v. Chambers" (1983) involved a legislative body in Nebraska that hired a particular minister (a Presbyterian) to offer prayers over a sixteen-year period. They did not intentionally exclude anyone based on their religion. This was not found to be unconstitutional because the individual was chosen, not any specific religious tradition. Mo tradition was excluded by intent. He was essentially hired to work within his profession (minister, plumber, electrician, etc).
The case "Simpson v. Chesterfield County" starts with the fact that Chesterfield County opens all of their meetings with a prayer. A prayer which is supposed to be ecumenical, open to many ministers to perform. That changes everything. No single person was hired to do this task. It means that they ought to be legally bound to treat all clerics equally, save that they do not. In their case they stated that they had no duty to be open to any religion that was not within the American Civil religion - and I quote from the board :
The Board in Chesterfield County argued that :
Not only is the American civil religion monotheistic, but...its monotheism is consistent with the Judeo-Christian concept of divinity...a monotheistic divinity [and] upheld practices that are consistent with Judeo-Christian religious practices, such as belief in a rational God, belief in a Sabbath or day of rest, and recognition of Christian holidays. ... In contrast to the American civil religion, Wicca is polytheistic and pantheistic.
Serious Points of Difference
The fact that the "Marsh" case recognized that those people present and involved BELIEVED in a monotheistic divinity, and that they had a common set of religious beliefs among them, and that many other people in the USA also hold some/many of these religious beliefs (at least to some extent), does not mean that the Supreme Court said that everyone has to believe the same thing to get equal treatment under law; or that these beliefs are actual fact; or that those who believe otherwise can be mistreated freely based only on their religion. The court did not state that this "American Civil Religion" was supposed to get a special dispensation or any kind of preference either. The main reason for the decision in "Marsh (1993)" was the fact that it was simply an "at will employment" situation, and not a situation that was open to the participation of any local religious cleric who applied (which is the situation in the Chesterfield County case- save that they secretly held the right to reject anything not close enough to their own personal beliefs).
The "Simpson V. Chesterfield" case is seriously different from that of "Marsh (1983) and at its core, it is about the right of a government body to openly discriminate; about the right of a government body to treat people differently based on their religion. It boils down to these ideas/questions :
Do the members of the the Chesterfield County government like and/or respect a specific religion? Is it a monotheistic religion of the sort that they are comfortable with?
Where the answer is no; for instance in : Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Native American beliefs, neopagan/Wicca, new age, Santeria, Voodoo - they maintain the right to say NO to any cleric. They would (by this policy) allow the Dalai Lama to open their local county meetings. This makes their choices NOT one of "ecumenical" prayers.
I know this has been long, but the point here is to make it plain that there is a large difference between the two cases. They cannot be ethically lumped together as they are in this article (although it can be done unethically of course) and also that these two cases have created a serious change in US "bench law" in regards to legal forms of religious discrimination in the USA.
Hi, anyone up to (and able to) create a German article version of this? Perhaps de:Jüdisch-christliche Werte does it, as there's de:Christliche Werte already. Cheers, Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 01:20, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
Judeo-Christian is a simple term for a cultural view. The term originated in the USA. But the concept is generic to all Christian or post-Christian societies. Yet the article is written as if the term is only applicable to the USA. This is misleading and incorrect. 122.59.140.215 ( talk) 22:00, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
The term Judeo-Christian is not specific to the USA, but the article is entirely about the term in the USA. I suggest renaming the article "Judeo-Christianity in the United States". 122.59.140.215 ( talk) 22:03, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
The article is on a specific term in use since the 1940s, and is NOT about the history of Christianity in the US before then. So I dropped the useless sections that did not use the term or the concept. Rjensen ( talk) 15:34, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
The article has to distinguish between "Judeo-Christian" (its title) and the specific phrase "Judeo-Christian values". The latter may indeed be a hand-waving political term coined by Orwell. The former, which is employed in Orwell's phrase, refers to the completely uncontroversial common origin of Judaism and Christianity in the early centuries CE. I am saying the editors have let their opinions cloud their prose. It is not only "scholary" who use the term in reference to the common origin of the two religions, it is also Orwell in his phrase "Judeo-Christian values", and hence anyone using the term at all. -- dab (𒁳) 11:36, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
Organising the US material under a section explicitly about US politics does indeed establish that the bulk of this article is about the phrase "Judeo-Christian values" specifically. Perhaps this should be the title of the article, and the article should be explicitly about the US "culture wars"?
Afacis, the term is used as a shibboleth to express a "conservative" position (holding "Judeo-Christian values" even while not necessarily being religious) while at the same time distancing oneself from anti-Semitic currents of thought found in some parts of the "conservative" spectrum. Idk if the tangent about Islam is relevant, as we do have an article about " Abrahamic religions" (idk about *"Abrahamic values") -- dab (𒁳) 14:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Just to be clear, I reworded material about the 1829 use of Judeo-Christian because it was not at all what had been described in our text. It did not refer to any common roots of the religion. As anyone can check out, it is used specifically for the idea of creating a form of Christian church that uses Jewish traditions so that it will be easier to convert Jews - basically, an earlier concept of Messianic Judaism. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 00:57, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
I added the term "Christian" in describing Cilnton when citing him using the term, because it is both what is being discussed in the source and is relevant to our discussion of how the term is used. I'm a bit more unsure with what to do about the Reagan material that was just added; I tried to give it context, but looking at that context - that this is what some now-Christian publisher/conservative PAC head, then first-time-author used in reference to Reagan in 2003 - I'm not sure that this really says anything about Reagan in relation to the term, nor about the time period being discussed, but seems to be just another example of some random Christian conservative using the term. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 13:26, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
This article has two very different components. One is a 2000 history of group relations and theology. The other is an American concept of a common "Judeo-Christian ethics". So I spun off that to spin off the ethics sections to Judeo-Christian ethics. Rjensen ( talk) 08:09, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
I can see from this talk page already that much discussion has been had about the 'validity' and scope of the term Judeo-Christian. To add to this dialogue, I will say that the article should really stress that Judeo-Christian as a term is in fact a Christian term that refers to reflecting on the supposed Christian roots of their religion. (Opposed to other Christians who may want to: completely ignore the Old Testament, or a possible relationship with Judaism.) - What isn't being stressed (enough) in the article is that the term doesn't hold any weight in Jewish theology, or outlook (save for say Messianic Judaism, which some have argued isn't Judaism. But has it's own link for disambiguation anyway, so let's leave that be.). What is most confusing to me, is that section on 'Jewish responses' argues that its reception has been mixed. However the section fails to show that in any way there has been a 'warm' reception. As the 'evidence' is instead examples of interfaith attempts between the religion. The existence of interfaith support between Christianity & Judaism does not provide evidence that Judaism would ever see validity in the term Judeo-Christian. Instead it argues that there have been Jewish AND Christian projects with the aim of peace/cohabitation/multiculturalism/etc. in mind.
I would argue that the following should be wholly deleted:
As it has no bearing on the term Judeo-Christian, and instead should be saved for an article on Jewish-Christian relations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noxiyu ( talk • contribs) 23:57, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I moved most of the remaining material in this article related to Judeo-Christian ethics to that article. That article is improved by having it, but I'm not sure what is left here suffices for a full article. Perhaps this article should be made a section of Christianity and Judaism. Person54 ( talk) 19:27, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
The Judeo-Christian ethics article was spun out of Judeo-Christian by a single editor without any attempt to reach consensus here... and now leaves this article where at least someone feels it should be removed. "Judeo-Christian" worked better as a single topic, there is no need for a subtopic with a separate article. Nat Gertler ( talk) 22:08, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I agree with you that the current article structure isn't very logical. Where I ended up on the question of how to resolve this, after working on the two articles a few weeks ago, was that the best path forward would be to keep Judeo-Christian ethics as an article about the mostly American usage of the term in connection with the American civil religion, and to merge this article, which is about common scriptural and theological ground between the two faiths, with Christianity and Judaism, which is also about that, among other things. I would be willing to do the merge, if there were consensus. Person54 ( talk) 19:55, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Don't have a strong opinion on what should be done with this article but I thought I would ask about some interesting material I came across. Reading about The Jewish Encyclopedia I found that its instigator Isidore Singer (Jewish) and its publisher Isaac K. Funk (Lutheran) apparently got along well because they believed in a fundamental unity between Judaism and Christianity which would eventually manifest as some kind of Judeo-Christian brotherhood. (I can't get this book today so I can't check to see if this exact term was used, but the rhetoric was pretty strong about the foundation of the two religions being the same.) Is this the kind of material which would ideally fit into the "Judeo-Christian" article? More stuff like this is findable on the web: [1], [2], [3], etc. Also how do Hebrew Christian movement and Messianic Judaism fit in? All of this does seem to go a little beyond "ethics". Best, groupuscule ( talk) 17:16, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
So I asked above how the material currently in this article is about the term "Judeo-Christian". No answers. It seems to me that little of the article is currently about that, and if it weren't for the fact that removing the extraneous material would leave this article empty, most of the article should be deleted. Perhaps if that were done, what was left could be merged with "J-C ethics". Let's go through it:
This article basically sucks, with very little that should be kept, other than material which relates to J-C ethics or to C&J. And you guys want to merge the other, reasonably clean, article, here? It makes sense only if maybe three paragraphs from this article are kept and the rest of the article is the J-C ethics article as it currently stands. Person54 ( talk) 21:52, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Is it okay to list or link info anent the term"Judaeo-NWO"?
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect JudæoChristian. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 9#JudæoChristian until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 ( talk) 15:56, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
I am removing the sentence that says "The observance of Passover by Jews is a tradition closely related to the Christian celebration of Easter." The two sources are a Wall Street Journal essay by R. R. Reno, which I don't have full access to but is an opinion piece that makes it clear from the opening that it is talking about similarities between the two holidays, which is also the topic of the archived other article (although it also covers differences.) Similarities are not a relationship. If one holiday were to have been derived from another, or if both holidays were derived from a third holiday, then yes, they would be related. But particularly in an article where supposed shared heritage is being discussed, we should not confuse similarity to relationship. (Also, even if they were related, the ordering of things so that it sounds like Passover is derived from Easter would be problematic.) -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 14:29, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
The external link section is currently there to provide a single link to a promo page for what is essentially a self-pubilshed book (published through a "publishing services" business) written by a music therapist. It's hard to see that page as a substantial source for this topic.
I have retired from article editing, but I request that someone else look at this and appropriately remove the link. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 03:03, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
The wikilinked term, philo-semitism, appears several times in this article. It is mentioned specifically in the context of the United States. When I navigated to Philosemitism, I found an article that is focused on its manifestation almost exclusively in Europe. (The article seems to have been translated from German Wikipedia, given the tagging. Nothing wrong with that at all but it is another reason why use of the term is misleading in passages of this article that are specific to religious and political trends in the USA, absent any explanation or citation.)
The only mention of the United States in the philosemitism article is this, which is the very opposite of "philo":
Mark Twain's essay Concerning the Jews has been described as philosemitic. Israeli scholar Bennet Kravitz states that one could just as easily hate Jews for the reasons Twain gives for admiring them. In fact, Twain's essay was cited by Nazi sympathizers in the 1930s. Kravitz concludes, "The flawed logic of 'Concerning the Jews' and all philo-Semitism leads to the anti-Semitic beliefs that the latter seeks to deflate".
I am going to remove those wikilinks and rephrase slightly differently. If anyone objects strongly, revert me. It would be nice to have an explanation as to why as a response here. FeralOink ( talk) 15:25, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
An IP editor has been trying to add in statements about the original use of the term "Judeo-Christian", and refer to other uses of the term as incorrect. As we cover in the history section, the term has been used to several meanings over the years. That doesn't make any given usage of the term "incorrect"; as with many things in English, it has multiple meanings. The central topic of this article is the current primary use of the term. I have (twice) undone those edits (which also introduced a number of formatting problems.) -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 05:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
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The article Christianity and Judaism was nominated for deletion. The debate was closed on 03 October 2008 with a consensus to merge the content into Judeo-Christian. After further discussion, the merge was rejected. See discussion. |
One of the problelisted at the top of the article is that it deals with "multiple issues".
Does this mean that it ought to be split into several different articles, each dealing with a single issue?
Has anyone proposed the way in which it should be split, and given a list of the issues to be dealt with? SteveH ( talk) 23:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Given the lack of consensus on the meaning of the term and given that it is used currently in a variety of political contexts and not just in terms of theology, I think that a more helpful focus would be on the history of the term and the ideas represented by it in Europe in particular and how it was used by both philosemites and antisemites. A good source to look for the history of philosemitism and antisemitism and for a discussion of the role that the debate over Judaism's relationship with Christianity played in the Enlightenment's attitude towards Jews is Leon Poliakov's _The History of Anti-Semitism_. Another thing to consider is the way the term can be and often is used to deny any separate existence or uniqueness to Judaism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.136.102.201 ( talk) 14:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
There is an article on Creation according to the Book of Genesis that discusses creation. There is a suggestion now to rename it and give it a Biblical name that may overlap with the New Testamant. I think that will mix differing views, but not being an expert on Jewish views, clarifications on that will be helpful here: Talk:Creation_according_to_Genesis#Requested_move_.28as_a_way_to_resolve_every_reasonable_concern.29
Your comments will be appreciated. History2007 ( talk) 14:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Reading some of the above comments, I have the impression that many seem to question the validity of the term. This misses the point: The term itself is valid; individual uses of it may not be. (For instance, I originally landed on this page after reading a blog entry where someone explicitly equated "Judeo-Christian" with "Jewish Zionist", which is a gross misinterpretation of what the term means.)
There is sufficient and significant overlap, as well as a historical connection, which more than justifies the term, just like "Eurasian" or "Anglo-American" are perfectly valid terms.
Attack misuse of meaning, irrelevant use, misleading use---but leave the term it self alone. Michael Eriksson ( talk) 13:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The term "Judeo-christian" is a joke(Living Lie) or an oxymoron ,because if one Religion that is "Christianity" praises Jesus Christ as LORD, the other one that is "Judaism" curses Jesus and considering him to be a FALSE (IMPOSTER) Messiah and illegitimate son of a whore. How come then you keep deluding yourself and others by fusing these two contrasting religions into one homogenous false concept/term that is called "Judeo-Christianity" ? JUST LIKE ICE AND FIRE. Plus if both Christianity and Judaism are Middle Eastern Religions and NOT Western ,(both originated from what you call it Middle East), then how come both " Gentile " Christians west with those Ashkinazi " GOYIM " Jews of Europian and Russian descents, keep claiming these two religions to be western ? ? ! ! ! ! ! Do not you feel shame of yourself that your so call civilization is entirely being founded and enslaved by an alien "mythical traditional lore /Folklores" that belong only to those that you call them sand wogs ? ? ! ! ! ! !
Ashkenazim are of Israelite descent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.148.57.140 ( talk) 01:33, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Currently, the hatnote to this article reads:
But actually (and in my view, correctly), that isn't the scope of this article, as it presently stands.
This article is not really focussed on an analysis of the values Judaism and Christianity hold in common. Rathe (and in my view appropriately, given its title) it is a discussion of the history and use of the particular phrase Judeo-Christian itself.
At Talk:Christianity and Judaism (section: Hatnote, and focus of this article) I have suggested that that article should be re-focussed, to become the top-level introduction to all aspects of relationships and comparison between Christianity and Judaism -- including, but not necessarily limited to, what may be common ground between the two faiths; where the two faiths may differ, both broadly and in detail; and also the historical nature of relations between the two faiths. Much the role in fact that the articles Islam and Judaism and Christianity and Islam set themselves.
Further discussion of this proposal is probably best followed up on the Talk:Christianity and Judaism talkpage, to centralise it in one place.
However, I hope editors on this page would agree that it would be a more appropriate way to go forward. Jheald ( talk) 18:17, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
The term mostly exists so that closet Dominionists can call for Christian theocracy without calling it Christian theocracy. Instead they claim to be supporting the values held by multiple religions, despite the objective fact that Jewish and Christian moral traditions have many distinct differences. 24.214.230.66 ( talk) 22:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
I want to read more about this claim in the opening section: “ The term became widely used in the United States during the Cold War to suggest a unified American identity opposed to communism.” What is the source? Theologian and author Arthur A. Cohen is mentioned directly after, is he the source? Sorry for being thick? JonesyPHD ( talk) 16:04, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Because this statement is in the lead it summarizes material further down in the article. In this case, you'll find the attributions toward the bottom of the History section. Jno.skinner ( talk) 16:52, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
The premise that judeo-christian values are the fundamental moral values of the founding fathers is not a neutral premise, but a conclusion slipped in before the definition is addressed. I for one think the founding fathers as a whole shared moral values derived more from the roman and greek classics than the old testament. This is just one example. I think the article is pro-religion, and not neutral. Of course there is the oxymoron aspect as well. indeed the whole christian premise is that Christ brought a new and everlasting covenant based on his newly revealed moral values, and thereby separating permanently from the old values of the (jewish) old testament. Why else did He come? All in all, this article is not informative and should be stricken entirely.
1) What Judaism and Christianity call the "Ten Commandments" is not the same. There is a large (but not total) overlap in the verses for both, but the differences in numbering, inclusion, significance, meaning, scope, and actionability are far greater than the words being the same. Even the (apparent) Christian view that the "Ten Commandments" are standards of ethics is mismatched to the traditional Jewish views. Removing the example from the first sentence would probably be good.
2) The organisation of this article is extremely poor. History and usage of the term is spread throughout several sections. Political and historical concepts are scattered. The information presented in several sections, most notably "Culture Wars", lacks coherency.
3) What, exactly, is the focus of this article? Is the "Judeo-Christian concept" to be defined and discussed, or is the term "Judeo-Christian" defined and discussed? If the focus is the former, I would vote for removing this article. However, if the focus is on the term and its usage, it makes sense to keep it. Most of the problems seem to be from this ambiguity.
Elfwiki ( talk) 09:20, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
The article should either be moved to Judeo-Christianity or the first sentence should be changed so that it describes a noun. The article, at the moment, begins:
This clearly refers to the term Judeo-Christian as to an adjective.
Wikipedia is not a dictionary, therefore adjectives should not be used as catchwords. The article Jewish Christian begins with a similar sentence ("Jewish Christians is a term which appears in historical texts..."), also containing the words "is a term", but that refers to a noun, there. Hans Dunkelberg ( talk) 19:55, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Cut from article:
This is unsourced and its appearance seems designed to make the original point that the whole thing was cooked up in recent decades and/or is merely a political term of art. If there is a reliable source which says so, by all means locate it. Then put the claim back into the article. But it seemed out of place where it was. -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 04:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, not only it would have more concordancy if it was either "Judeo-Christianism (also Abrahamism)" or "Judeo-Christian (also Abrahamian)", but wouldn't a real synonym of Abrahamism necessarely be "Judeo-Christo-Mohammedan/Muslim"? -- Extremophile ( talk) 04:17, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
link to nothing, is it available somewhere else?
needs to be modified or removed I am short on time and very busy
T[{}]TVWVT 16:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttommy69 ( talk • contribs)
It was unnecessary to put in any references to either of the two cases mentioned in this section ("Marsh v. Chambers" (1983) and "Simpson v. Chesterfield County" (2003 and 2005). BUT, having added them, it is the duty of Wikipedia editors to do so with honesty. They have not done this and furthermore left out the most important legal point - the strengthing of a real legal definition for an "American Civil Religion".
The two cases are quite different, but they treated as if they are the same circumstance. TThis might be understandable if all that was available in regards to "Simpson v. Chesterfield County" were the Appellate court decision (which was after the District Court ruled in favor of Simpson in 2003). A great deal more information is available.
Read this for a real look at how this section of the article is quite biased.
http://www.pluralism.org/reports/view/101 http://pluralism.org/reports/view/126 http://www.religioustolerance.org/wicchest.htm
There comes a point at which leaving out information becomes a way of intentionally inserting bias. It is hard not to see this happening in this instance (unless you do not want to see what is in front of you).
FACT - "Simpson v. Chesterfield County" had been previously decided in favor of Simpson by the District Court. I was not even allowed to say that in an edit to the article. So much for neutrality at Wikipedia. Tell an unpopular truth, and you get told to go to the forums.
Again, this article handles "Simpson v. Chesterfield County" as being somehow the same as "Marsh v. Chambers" (1983). By mentioning them both in this manner, it is misleading. Yet the two are blurred together as if they are the same and they are not (far from it). The difference are important and relevant, especially as they lead, one step at a time, to a new legal concept in the USA - that of a legally accepted and defined "American Civil Religion". The US has an official religion now, as created by those two (very different) cases, and as reinforced by a number of other cases, since the 1983 decision. This new "American Civil Religion" also touches strongly on the concept of the Rise of the Radical Right in the USA (Conservatism, Fundamentalism) in the USA and its effects on changing the law of the land.
Previous to this, government was NEVER (as stated in the Bill of Rights) supposed to place its weight behind any specific religion or religious concept. However as of 1983, the concept of "Judeo-Christian" took on a legal meaning with the acceptance by the Supreme COurt of an "American Civil Religion". This was (and still is) big news.
- How are the cases different (why is this important)?
"Marsh v. Chambers" (1983) involved a legislative body in Nebraska that hired a particular minister (a Presbyterian) to offer prayers over a sixteen-year period. They did not intentionally exclude anyone based on their religion. This was not found to be unconstitutional because the individual was chosen, not any specific religious tradition. Mo tradition was excluded by intent. He was essentially hired to work within his profession (minister, plumber, electrician, etc).
The case "Simpson v. Chesterfield County" starts with the fact that Chesterfield County opens all of their meetings with a prayer. A prayer which is supposed to be ecumenical, open to many ministers to perform. That changes everything. No single person was hired to do this task. It means that they ought to be legally bound to treat all clerics equally, save that they do not. In their case they stated that they had no duty to be open to any religion that was not within the American Civil religion - and I quote from the board :
The Board in Chesterfield County argued that :
Not only is the American civil religion monotheistic, but...its monotheism is consistent with the Judeo-Christian concept of divinity...a monotheistic divinity [and] upheld practices that are consistent with Judeo-Christian religious practices, such as belief in a rational God, belief in a Sabbath or day of rest, and recognition of Christian holidays. ... In contrast to the American civil religion, Wicca is polytheistic and pantheistic.
Serious Points of Difference
The fact that the "Marsh" case recognized that those people present and involved BELIEVED in a monotheistic divinity, and that they had a common set of religious beliefs among them, and that many other people in the USA also hold some/many of these religious beliefs (at least to some extent), does not mean that the Supreme Court said that everyone has to believe the same thing to get equal treatment under law; or that these beliefs are actual fact; or that those who believe otherwise can be mistreated freely based only on their religion. The court did not state that this "American Civil Religion" was supposed to get a special dispensation or any kind of preference either. The main reason for the decision in "Marsh (1993)" was the fact that it was simply an "at will employment" situation, and not a situation that was open to the participation of any local religious cleric who applied (which is the situation in the Chesterfield County case- save that they secretly held the right to reject anything not close enough to their own personal beliefs).
The "Simpson V. Chesterfield" case is seriously different from that of "Marsh (1983) and at its core, it is about the right of a government body to openly discriminate; about the right of a government body to treat people differently based on their religion. It boils down to these ideas/questions :
Do the members of the the Chesterfield County government like and/or respect a specific religion? Is it a monotheistic religion of the sort that they are comfortable with?
Where the answer is no; for instance in : Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Native American beliefs, neopagan/Wicca, new age, Santeria, Voodoo - they maintain the right to say NO to any cleric. They would (by this policy) allow the Dalai Lama to open their local county meetings. This makes their choices NOT one of "ecumenical" prayers.
I know this has been long, but the point here is to make it plain that there is a large difference between the two cases. They cannot be ethically lumped together as they are in this article (although it can be done unethically of course) and also that these two cases have created a serious change in US "bench law" in regards to legal forms of religious discrimination in the USA.
Hi, anyone up to (and able to) create a German article version of this? Perhaps de:Jüdisch-christliche Werte does it, as there's de:Christliche Werte already. Cheers, Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 01:20, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
Judeo-Christian is a simple term for a cultural view. The term originated in the USA. But the concept is generic to all Christian or post-Christian societies. Yet the article is written as if the term is only applicable to the USA. This is misleading and incorrect. 122.59.140.215 ( talk) 22:00, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
The term Judeo-Christian is not specific to the USA, but the article is entirely about the term in the USA. I suggest renaming the article "Judeo-Christianity in the United States". 122.59.140.215 ( talk) 22:03, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
The article is on a specific term in use since the 1940s, and is NOT about the history of Christianity in the US before then. So I dropped the useless sections that did not use the term or the concept. Rjensen ( talk) 15:34, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
The article has to distinguish between "Judeo-Christian" (its title) and the specific phrase "Judeo-Christian values". The latter may indeed be a hand-waving political term coined by Orwell. The former, which is employed in Orwell's phrase, refers to the completely uncontroversial common origin of Judaism and Christianity in the early centuries CE. I am saying the editors have let their opinions cloud their prose. It is not only "scholary" who use the term in reference to the common origin of the two religions, it is also Orwell in his phrase "Judeo-Christian values", and hence anyone using the term at all. -- dab (𒁳) 11:36, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
Organising the US material under a section explicitly about US politics does indeed establish that the bulk of this article is about the phrase "Judeo-Christian values" specifically. Perhaps this should be the title of the article, and the article should be explicitly about the US "culture wars"?
Afacis, the term is used as a shibboleth to express a "conservative" position (holding "Judeo-Christian values" even while not necessarily being religious) while at the same time distancing oneself from anti-Semitic currents of thought found in some parts of the "conservative" spectrum. Idk if the tangent about Islam is relevant, as we do have an article about " Abrahamic religions" (idk about *"Abrahamic values") -- dab (𒁳) 14:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Just to be clear, I reworded material about the 1829 use of Judeo-Christian because it was not at all what had been described in our text. It did not refer to any common roots of the religion. As anyone can check out, it is used specifically for the idea of creating a form of Christian church that uses Jewish traditions so that it will be easier to convert Jews - basically, an earlier concept of Messianic Judaism. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 00:57, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
I added the term "Christian" in describing Cilnton when citing him using the term, because it is both what is being discussed in the source and is relevant to our discussion of how the term is used. I'm a bit more unsure with what to do about the Reagan material that was just added; I tried to give it context, but looking at that context - that this is what some now-Christian publisher/conservative PAC head, then first-time-author used in reference to Reagan in 2003 - I'm not sure that this really says anything about Reagan in relation to the term, nor about the time period being discussed, but seems to be just another example of some random Christian conservative using the term. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 13:26, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
This article has two very different components. One is a 2000 history of group relations and theology. The other is an American concept of a common "Judeo-Christian ethics". So I spun off that to spin off the ethics sections to Judeo-Christian ethics. Rjensen ( talk) 08:09, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
I can see from this talk page already that much discussion has been had about the 'validity' and scope of the term Judeo-Christian. To add to this dialogue, I will say that the article should really stress that Judeo-Christian as a term is in fact a Christian term that refers to reflecting on the supposed Christian roots of their religion. (Opposed to other Christians who may want to: completely ignore the Old Testament, or a possible relationship with Judaism.) - What isn't being stressed (enough) in the article is that the term doesn't hold any weight in Jewish theology, or outlook (save for say Messianic Judaism, which some have argued isn't Judaism. But has it's own link for disambiguation anyway, so let's leave that be.). What is most confusing to me, is that section on 'Jewish responses' argues that its reception has been mixed. However the section fails to show that in any way there has been a 'warm' reception. As the 'evidence' is instead examples of interfaith attempts between the religion. The existence of interfaith support between Christianity & Judaism does not provide evidence that Judaism would ever see validity in the term Judeo-Christian. Instead it argues that there have been Jewish AND Christian projects with the aim of peace/cohabitation/multiculturalism/etc. in mind.
I would argue that the following should be wholly deleted:
As it has no bearing on the term Judeo-Christian, and instead should be saved for an article on Jewish-Christian relations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noxiyu ( talk • contribs) 23:57, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
I moved most of the remaining material in this article related to Judeo-Christian ethics to that article. That article is improved by having it, but I'm not sure what is left here suffices for a full article. Perhaps this article should be made a section of Christianity and Judaism. Person54 ( talk) 19:27, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
The Judeo-Christian ethics article was spun out of Judeo-Christian by a single editor without any attempt to reach consensus here... and now leaves this article where at least someone feels it should be removed. "Judeo-Christian" worked better as a single topic, there is no need for a subtopic with a separate article. Nat Gertler ( talk) 22:08, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I agree with you that the current article structure isn't very logical. Where I ended up on the question of how to resolve this, after working on the two articles a few weeks ago, was that the best path forward would be to keep Judeo-Christian ethics as an article about the mostly American usage of the term in connection with the American civil religion, and to merge this article, which is about common scriptural and theological ground between the two faiths, with Christianity and Judaism, which is also about that, among other things. I would be willing to do the merge, if there were consensus. Person54 ( talk) 19:55, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Don't have a strong opinion on what should be done with this article but I thought I would ask about some interesting material I came across. Reading about The Jewish Encyclopedia I found that its instigator Isidore Singer (Jewish) and its publisher Isaac K. Funk (Lutheran) apparently got along well because they believed in a fundamental unity between Judaism and Christianity which would eventually manifest as some kind of Judeo-Christian brotherhood. (I can't get this book today so I can't check to see if this exact term was used, but the rhetoric was pretty strong about the foundation of the two religions being the same.) Is this the kind of material which would ideally fit into the "Judeo-Christian" article? More stuff like this is findable on the web: [1], [2], [3], etc. Also how do Hebrew Christian movement and Messianic Judaism fit in? All of this does seem to go a little beyond "ethics". Best, groupuscule ( talk) 17:16, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
So I asked above how the material currently in this article is about the term "Judeo-Christian". No answers. It seems to me that little of the article is currently about that, and if it weren't for the fact that removing the extraneous material would leave this article empty, most of the article should be deleted. Perhaps if that were done, what was left could be merged with "J-C ethics". Let's go through it:
This article basically sucks, with very little that should be kept, other than material which relates to J-C ethics or to C&J. And you guys want to merge the other, reasonably clean, article, here? It makes sense only if maybe three paragraphs from this article are kept and the rest of the article is the J-C ethics article as it currently stands. Person54 ( talk) 21:52, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Is it okay to list or link info anent the term"Judaeo-NWO"?
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect JudæoChristian. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 9#JudæoChristian until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 ( talk) 15:56, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
I am removing the sentence that says "The observance of Passover by Jews is a tradition closely related to the Christian celebration of Easter." The two sources are a Wall Street Journal essay by R. R. Reno, which I don't have full access to but is an opinion piece that makes it clear from the opening that it is talking about similarities between the two holidays, which is also the topic of the archived other article (although it also covers differences.) Similarities are not a relationship. If one holiday were to have been derived from another, or if both holidays were derived from a third holiday, then yes, they would be related. But particularly in an article where supposed shared heritage is being discussed, we should not confuse similarity to relationship. (Also, even if they were related, the ordering of things so that it sounds like Passover is derived from Easter would be problematic.) -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 14:29, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
The external link section is currently there to provide a single link to a promo page for what is essentially a self-pubilshed book (published through a "publishing services" business) written by a music therapist. It's hard to see that page as a substantial source for this topic.
I have retired from article editing, but I request that someone else look at this and appropriately remove the link. -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 03:03, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
The wikilinked term, philo-semitism, appears several times in this article. It is mentioned specifically in the context of the United States. When I navigated to Philosemitism, I found an article that is focused on its manifestation almost exclusively in Europe. (The article seems to have been translated from German Wikipedia, given the tagging. Nothing wrong with that at all but it is another reason why use of the term is misleading in passages of this article that are specific to religious and political trends in the USA, absent any explanation or citation.)
The only mention of the United States in the philosemitism article is this, which is the very opposite of "philo":
Mark Twain's essay Concerning the Jews has been described as philosemitic. Israeli scholar Bennet Kravitz states that one could just as easily hate Jews for the reasons Twain gives for admiring them. In fact, Twain's essay was cited by Nazi sympathizers in the 1930s. Kravitz concludes, "The flawed logic of 'Concerning the Jews' and all philo-Semitism leads to the anti-Semitic beliefs that the latter seeks to deflate".
I am going to remove those wikilinks and rephrase slightly differently. If anyone objects strongly, revert me. It would be nice to have an explanation as to why as a response here. FeralOink ( talk) 15:25, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
An IP editor has been trying to add in statements about the original use of the term "Judeo-Christian", and refer to other uses of the term as incorrect. As we cover in the history section, the term has been used to several meanings over the years. That doesn't make any given usage of the term "incorrect"; as with many things in English, it has multiple meanings. The central topic of this article is the current primary use of the term. I have (twice) undone those edits (which also introduced a number of formatting problems.) -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 05:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)