This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
Another FYI - Jews don't consider Buddhism a religion per se; Therefore, one can be a Buddhist Jew. Contrariwise, one can't be a Messianic Jew without being a Christian which is against the Jewish Principles of Faith and thus the individual is clearly no longer Jewish. Not trying to be divisive but to better inform. - Sparky 02:40, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Ezra writes "It is a religious civilization whose tenets while unchanging, can handle new circumstances." But Judaism has changed its tenets in a number of ways. It even changes from the Torah to the Prophets, and changes from the medieval era to the modern era. JeMa
Ezra writes "They decry the divisions as implying that there is more than one kind of Judaism when in reality there isn't." But Judaism has always had divisions; many divisions still exist. Mr. Wax is mistaking his beliefs (only kind of Judaism should exist) for actual reality (many Judaisms exist). The same is true in Christianity. Christian fundamentalist write that only one form of Christianity exists; this implies that all other forms of Christianity are heretical. So the same position is held by Jewish fundamentalists? It doesn't change anything. After you spend some time in the Unitarian-Universalist community, and compare liberal religions to fundamentalist religions, you begin to recognize these commonalities between true believeres. The creeds differ; the logic and psychology is the same. JeMa 17:04, Dec 19, 2003 (UTC)
As such, there is a clear line between what is Judaism and what is not Judaism. There may be disagreement on where that line is, but those disagreements must fall within some sort of framework. Otherwise the term Judaism is meaningless. It is clear that the defining work of Judaism is the Talmud. As such any Judaism that does not adhere to the Talmud is something else. The Talmud is the sum total of Jewish thought and any future Jewish thought is based on that. Any thought not based on it is not Jewish thought it is something else. Ezra Wax
Ezra Wax writes: SLR: I don't like to look gift horses in the mouth, but I don't see any compromise there. All the changes that matter to me have been undone. I take issue with a non-Orthodox Rabbi being called upon to define Judaism.
Ezra Wax writes: I don't agree with his definition.
Ezra Wax writes: It is also extremely important to me that it be made clear that the dividing Judaism into denominations is absolutely against my beliefs.
Since all of these things have been removed. I cannot do anything but revert. Ezra Wax
If your goal is NPOV then you cannot present as undisputed fact something that is not agreed to by all people. Presenting a non-Orthodox viewpoint on what Judaism is without making it clear that it is non-Orthodox and not presenting the Orthodox view at the same time is clearly not neutral.
Dividing up Judaism into denominations and not making clear that not everybody agrees that Judaism should be divided up into denominations is also not NPOV Ezra Wax
Albo gives 3, the Rambam gives 13. That is more than just a minor difference. Danny 22:14, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Is there a chance of reaching some kind of consensus on this page before it needs to be protected to stop the edit war? Pakaran 23:13, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I still don't like it, but I think it's better than what we started with. Ezra Wax
What are the fundamental tenets of Judaism? Like Messianic Jews, the Reformed jews reject Halacha. Like Messianic Jews the Reformed insist that it is a valid form of Judaism. The Reformed ignore the Torah except when convenient. What would they have to do to be declared anathema and heretics? I am sure that you do not wish to appear as a hypocrite.
I object to all of Mr. Wax's recent changes. His statements violate NPOV, and any Google search shows that they do not even represent Orthodox Judaism. For instance, Orthodox Jews do not characterize Judaism as only a religion. Only the German Reform Jews made this claim, and they apparently came to reject this idea. (Some within Unitarian-Universalism have this view, but as wonderful as it is, UU is not a form of Judaism.) Clearly, Mr. Wax's edits are made for the sole purpose of annoying non-Orthodox Jews and people whom he considers heretics. This is not constructive; this is trolling. JeMa 15:20, Dec 22, 2003 (UTC)
JeMa: I don't deny that my edits have introduced a somewhat Orthodox slant. However, it is not less neutral than the article was before as before it had an anti-Orthodox slant. It is very difficult to remove what is objectionable without introducing a slant. If it is going to have a slant, then I want it to be my slant. Ezra Wax
The only way to work with you is to show you that your current article is unbalanced. You were perfectly happy with the way the article was. I wasn't. If so, the article was not neutral. In order for the article to be neutral it must either reflect all points of view or none. You cannot put up a summary of Judaism that reflects just your point of view, otherwise it is perfectly fair for me to put up a summary to reflect mine. When it is clear to you how our points of view differ and that there is no way to come to an agreement without hashing it out, we will be able to hash it out. Ezra Wax
Ezra Wax writes "You were perfectly happy with the way the article was. I wasn't. If so, the article was not neutral."
But the NPOV requirement of Wikipedia (and if you simply cannot accept it, you do not have any business contributing and have no right to complain when people take issue with you) requires you to contextualize these two points of view -- you need to make clear that the first point of view is a point of view, and try to describe or give an account of whose point of view it is (besides your own, personally); you need to make clear that the second point of view is a point of view. This is implicit in what you just wrote above; I am simply asking you to be careful to make this explicit in your contributions to the article. We understand that you are working piece by piece because you need time to do more research. I don't think anyone takes issue with that, but people do expect your claims to be contextualized and based on research. So third, if you believe that claims in the article are biased or not true, you have every right to ask other contributors to make clear the point of view, and share the research they have done to back up the claim. You have every right to do this. Moreover, give other people a chance, and more people might give you more chances. Slrubenstein
I think people are missing a critical point: This article is not about Jewish principles of faith. That is a separate article. Discussion on points in that article should take place there, not here. However, I despair that Ezra can write in that article, because he has publicly and repeatedly stated that he will censor all material that is not in accord with ultra-Orthodox beliefs. As long as he repeatedly admits that he won't accept NPOV, then we must revert his edits. RK 13:56, Dec 24, 2003 (UTC)
As to someone's Jewishness -- there can only be one criteria that's valid. If one identified themself as a Jew; And, then proceeds to act upon that identification by mitzvot and involvement with the community. The core of Jewishness is ethical monotheism. I'd have to take the position of Hillel and accept them as Jewish. Albert Einstein was as accepting as well. And that was when calling yourself a Jew marked you as a target to haters. Ultras and the Orthodox can have their own POVs -- but their religiousness doesn't grant them any divine powers. - Sparky 04:22, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Judaism does not characterize itself as a religion. Rather, Jews have traditionally thought of Judaism as a culture with its own history, language (Hebrew), ancestral homeland, liturgy, philosophy, set of ethics, religious practices, and the like.
Can Judaism characterize itself? Does everybody agree what the word Judaism means, so that this sentence makes sense according to all definitions? Don't all religions have their own history etc? In short, I think this paragraph is entirely meaningless. Ezra Wax 05:16, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Zestauferov: I don't think becoming a citizen of Israel can in any way be construed as becoming Jewish. Israeli Arabs would certainly not consider themselves Jewish. Ezra Wax
Slrubenstein: I suggest that we redefine the word religion when we use it. It is clear to me that Judaism is a religion in the sense that it is about Jewish interaction with God. If the Christian world has a narrower definition of what is considered interaction with God, then we simply have to be clear that Judaism considers everything to be an interaction with God. Ezra Wax
The sentence In the last two centuries the Jewish community has divided into a number of Jewish denominations; each has greatly different understandings of these principles are. should be corrected. As I am not sure what is intended I would like the person who wrote it to have a look. Two possible corrections can be made with quite different meanings:
OR
Vanderesch 16:13, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
SLR: Judaism never accepted the existence of other gods. It only accepted that there were people who very mistakenly believed that they existed. Ezra Wax
Is there any objection to listing an example or two of critics to Judaism? It does not need to have a POV analysis attached to it but should show who the critics are. - Tεx τ urε 22:40, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Paul, what is your objection to "critical analysis" versus "analysis" for infidels.org? It is an accurate statement that the analysis does not agree with Judaism. - Tεx τ urε 16:20, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Texture, the point is that if you can allow any pov "criticisms" of one religion, ie.
cosmotheism, then the same should hold true for
Judaism.
Therefore, this link:
This link should be allowed as a "criticism" or you must remove the similar offensive pov links from cosmotheism.
Criticism
The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution by Brad Whitsel (Nova Religio)
Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism, by Mattias Gardell ( ISBN 0822330717)
A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and White-Supremacist Hate Groups by Esther Hugenholtz (Pantheist Index)
Pseudo-Pantheism (Encyclopedia4U)
Any hue and cry of "anti-semitism" or "nazism" etc. ad nauseum for such a link is not relevant, if one is being hypocritical in actually allowing similar pov and slanderous links on cosmotheism, or any other religion, within Wiki articles.-PV
I am not "allowing" slanderous links on the cosmotheism page. Two rights do not make a wrong. If you have a problem on another site, seek mediation -- don't take out your frustrations here. Slrubenstein
Aren't you? Each one of those 4 slanderous POV articles and each one linked as "criticisms" on the cosmotheism page have been written by "Jews", and you have not ever protested and ever insisted upon their actual "removal" have you? The problem is on THIS SITE, WIKIPEDIA. The lying hypocrisy of your own "ilk" is responsible for this nonsense, and so it actually is YOUR OWN PROBLEM. Unfortunately, there is no effective medication for psychological projection on your and your own ilk's part, but, hope springs eternal!.-PV
No, it is pure "lying hypocrisy", and only on your own part.
Any hue and cry of "anti-semitism" or "nazism" etc. ad nauseum for such a link is not relevant, if one is being hypocritical in actually allowing similar pov and slanderous links on cosmotheism, or any other religion, within Wiki articles.
I will only "go away", only when you and your own "ilk" also "demand" that those slanderous cosmotheism "criticism links" are also deleted as well.
Otherwise, no deal.
-PV
regardless of how nutty its proponents may be, jew watch is a valid external link regarding critcism, heck, its the #1 google hit for "jew". I would think you'd prefer to take note, and se what these guys are saying. Anyhow I insist that its a valid link. Sam Spade 20:32, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
IMO anti-semite views have a place on this article as criticism and detractors have a place on nearly every other contentious article. Clearly no one thinks they should over run the page, but an external link? Lets be reasonable, and allow some 7th grade jew doing a report on judaism to have access to what sort of people have been persecuting his people, and what their rationales are. Sam Spade 23:05, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
\ "Anti-Zionist" or "Anti Jewish-Supremacism", is actually more like it!
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."-George Santayana
For example, does one historical genocide ever justify another?
===Palestinian Holocaust and Genocide by Israel---1948-Present?
Editorial Reviews of: "Jewish History Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3000 years" by Israel Shahak.
From Booklist:
Shahak, who came to Israel in 1945 after surviving the concentration camp in Belsen during the Holocaust, contends that the potential for Israel's right-wing Jewish religious movements to seize power represents a threat to the peace of Israel and to the Zionist movement. He posits that Israel as a Jewish state constitutes a danger not only to itself and its inhabitants, but to all Jews and to all other people and states in the Middle East. Shahak, who was raised as an Orthodox Jew, condemns what he sees as discrimination against non-Jewish citizens of Israel. The real test facing both Israeli and diaspora Jews is the test of their self-criticism, which must include the critique of the Jewish past. Most disturbing, Shahak insists that the religion, in its classical and talmudic form, is "poisoning minds and hearts." This controversial attack of Israel by a Jew is bound to alarm Jewry worldwide. George Cohen --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.
--- ""Anti-semites"??????
INDEED!!!!
Are NOT the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE also SEMITES?????"
:The term "anti-Semite" is a
misnomer.
Of course, and completely regardless of whomever coined the term "anti-semite" it is a factual misnomer especially because the oppressed and dispossessed and murdered Palestinian People are also "SEMITES", so for any "Jewish-Zionist supremacists" to exclusively call their own critics "anti-semites", instead of "anti-Jewish-Zionist Supremacists", considering what they are actually doing to their own fellow brother "Semites" in Palestine, is the just height of their own quite typical lying hypocrisy and psychological projection.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
Another FYI - Jews don't consider Buddhism a religion per se; Therefore, one can be a Buddhist Jew. Contrariwise, one can't be a Messianic Jew without being a Christian which is against the Jewish Principles of Faith and thus the individual is clearly no longer Jewish. Not trying to be divisive but to better inform. - Sparky 02:40, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Ezra writes "It is a religious civilization whose tenets while unchanging, can handle new circumstances." But Judaism has changed its tenets in a number of ways. It even changes from the Torah to the Prophets, and changes from the medieval era to the modern era. JeMa
Ezra writes "They decry the divisions as implying that there is more than one kind of Judaism when in reality there isn't." But Judaism has always had divisions; many divisions still exist. Mr. Wax is mistaking his beliefs (only kind of Judaism should exist) for actual reality (many Judaisms exist). The same is true in Christianity. Christian fundamentalist write that only one form of Christianity exists; this implies that all other forms of Christianity are heretical. So the same position is held by Jewish fundamentalists? It doesn't change anything. After you spend some time in the Unitarian-Universalist community, and compare liberal religions to fundamentalist religions, you begin to recognize these commonalities between true believeres. The creeds differ; the logic and psychology is the same. JeMa 17:04, Dec 19, 2003 (UTC)
As such, there is a clear line between what is Judaism and what is not Judaism. There may be disagreement on where that line is, but those disagreements must fall within some sort of framework. Otherwise the term Judaism is meaningless. It is clear that the defining work of Judaism is the Talmud. As such any Judaism that does not adhere to the Talmud is something else. The Talmud is the sum total of Jewish thought and any future Jewish thought is based on that. Any thought not based on it is not Jewish thought it is something else. Ezra Wax
Ezra Wax writes: SLR: I don't like to look gift horses in the mouth, but I don't see any compromise there. All the changes that matter to me have been undone. I take issue with a non-Orthodox Rabbi being called upon to define Judaism.
Ezra Wax writes: I don't agree with his definition.
Ezra Wax writes: It is also extremely important to me that it be made clear that the dividing Judaism into denominations is absolutely against my beliefs.
Since all of these things have been removed. I cannot do anything but revert. Ezra Wax
If your goal is NPOV then you cannot present as undisputed fact something that is not agreed to by all people. Presenting a non-Orthodox viewpoint on what Judaism is without making it clear that it is non-Orthodox and not presenting the Orthodox view at the same time is clearly not neutral.
Dividing up Judaism into denominations and not making clear that not everybody agrees that Judaism should be divided up into denominations is also not NPOV Ezra Wax
Albo gives 3, the Rambam gives 13. That is more than just a minor difference. Danny 22:14, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Is there a chance of reaching some kind of consensus on this page before it needs to be protected to stop the edit war? Pakaran 23:13, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I still don't like it, but I think it's better than what we started with. Ezra Wax
What are the fundamental tenets of Judaism? Like Messianic Jews, the Reformed jews reject Halacha. Like Messianic Jews the Reformed insist that it is a valid form of Judaism. The Reformed ignore the Torah except when convenient. What would they have to do to be declared anathema and heretics? I am sure that you do not wish to appear as a hypocrite.
I object to all of Mr. Wax's recent changes. His statements violate NPOV, and any Google search shows that they do not even represent Orthodox Judaism. For instance, Orthodox Jews do not characterize Judaism as only a religion. Only the German Reform Jews made this claim, and they apparently came to reject this idea. (Some within Unitarian-Universalism have this view, but as wonderful as it is, UU is not a form of Judaism.) Clearly, Mr. Wax's edits are made for the sole purpose of annoying non-Orthodox Jews and people whom he considers heretics. This is not constructive; this is trolling. JeMa 15:20, Dec 22, 2003 (UTC)
JeMa: I don't deny that my edits have introduced a somewhat Orthodox slant. However, it is not less neutral than the article was before as before it had an anti-Orthodox slant. It is very difficult to remove what is objectionable without introducing a slant. If it is going to have a slant, then I want it to be my slant. Ezra Wax
The only way to work with you is to show you that your current article is unbalanced. You were perfectly happy with the way the article was. I wasn't. If so, the article was not neutral. In order for the article to be neutral it must either reflect all points of view or none. You cannot put up a summary of Judaism that reflects just your point of view, otherwise it is perfectly fair for me to put up a summary to reflect mine. When it is clear to you how our points of view differ and that there is no way to come to an agreement without hashing it out, we will be able to hash it out. Ezra Wax
Ezra Wax writes "You were perfectly happy with the way the article was. I wasn't. If so, the article was not neutral."
But the NPOV requirement of Wikipedia (and if you simply cannot accept it, you do not have any business contributing and have no right to complain when people take issue with you) requires you to contextualize these two points of view -- you need to make clear that the first point of view is a point of view, and try to describe or give an account of whose point of view it is (besides your own, personally); you need to make clear that the second point of view is a point of view. This is implicit in what you just wrote above; I am simply asking you to be careful to make this explicit in your contributions to the article. We understand that you are working piece by piece because you need time to do more research. I don't think anyone takes issue with that, but people do expect your claims to be contextualized and based on research. So third, if you believe that claims in the article are biased or not true, you have every right to ask other contributors to make clear the point of view, and share the research they have done to back up the claim. You have every right to do this. Moreover, give other people a chance, and more people might give you more chances. Slrubenstein
I think people are missing a critical point: This article is not about Jewish principles of faith. That is a separate article. Discussion on points in that article should take place there, not here. However, I despair that Ezra can write in that article, because he has publicly and repeatedly stated that he will censor all material that is not in accord with ultra-Orthodox beliefs. As long as he repeatedly admits that he won't accept NPOV, then we must revert his edits. RK 13:56, Dec 24, 2003 (UTC)
As to someone's Jewishness -- there can only be one criteria that's valid. If one identified themself as a Jew; And, then proceeds to act upon that identification by mitzvot and involvement with the community. The core of Jewishness is ethical monotheism. I'd have to take the position of Hillel and accept them as Jewish. Albert Einstein was as accepting as well. And that was when calling yourself a Jew marked you as a target to haters. Ultras and the Orthodox can have their own POVs -- but their religiousness doesn't grant them any divine powers. - Sparky 04:22, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Judaism does not characterize itself as a religion. Rather, Jews have traditionally thought of Judaism as a culture with its own history, language (Hebrew), ancestral homeland, liturgy, philosophy, set of ethics, religious practices, and the like.
Can Judaism characterize itself? Does everybody agree what the word Judaism means, so that this sentence makes sense according to all definitions? Don't all religions have their own history etc? In short, I think this paragraph is entirely meaningless. Ezra Wax 05:16, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Zestauferov: I don't think becoming a citizen of Israel can in any way be construed as becoming Jewish. Israeli Arabs would certainly not consider themselves Jewish. Ezra Wax
Slrubenstein: I suggest that we redefine the word religion when we use it. It is clear to me that Judaism is a religion in the sense that it is about Jewish interaction with God. If the Christian world has a narrower definition of what is considered interaction with God, then we simply have to be clear that Judaism considers everything to be an interaction with God. Ezra Wax
The sentence In the last two centuries the Jewish community has divided into a number of Jewish denominations; each has greatly different understandings of these principles are. should be corrected. As I am not sure what is intended I would like the person who wrote it to have a look. Two possible corrections can be made with quite different meanings:
OR
Vanderesch 16:13, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
SLR: Judaism never accepted the existence of other gods. It only accepted that there were people who very mistakenly believed that they existed. Ezra Wax
Is there any objection to listing an example or two of critics to Judaism? It does not need to have a POV analysis attached to it but should show who the critics are. - Tεx τ urε 22:40, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Paul, what is your objection to "critical analysis" versus "analysis" for infidels.org? It is an accurate statement that the analysis does not agree with Judaism. - Tεx τ urε 16:20, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Texture, the point is that if you can allow any pov "criticisms" of one religion, ie.
cosmotheism, then the same should hold true for
Judaism.
Therefore, this link:
This link should be allowed as a "criticism" or you must remove the similar offensive pov links from cosmotheism.
Criticism
The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution by Brad Whitsel (Nova Religio)
Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism, by Mattias Gardell ( ISBN 0822330717)
A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and White-Supremacist Hate Groups by Esther Hugenholtz (Pantheist Index)
Pseudo-Pantheism (Encyclopedia4U)
Any hue and cry of "anti-semitism" or "nazism" etc. ad nauseum for such a link is not relevant, if one is being hypocritical in actually allowing similar pov and slanderous links on cosmotheism, or any other religion, within Wiki articles.-PV
I am not "allowing" slanderous links on the cosmotheism page. Two rights do not make a wrong. If you have a problem on another site, seek mediation -- don't take out your frustrations here. Slrubenstein
Aren't you? Each one of those 4 slanderous POV articles and each one linked as "criticisms" on the cosmotheism page have been written by "Jews", and you have not ever protested and ever insisted upon their actual "removal" have you? The problem is on THIS SITE, WIKIPEDIA. The lying hypocrisy of your own "ilk" is responsible for this nonsense, and so it actually is YOUR OWN PROBLEM. Unfortunately, there is no effective medication for psychological projection on your and your own ilk's part, but, hope springs eternal!.-PV
No, it is pure "lying hypocrisy", and only on your own part.
Any hue and cry of "anti-semitism" or "nazism" etc. ad nauseum for such a link is not relevant, if one is being hypocritical in actually allowing similar pov and slanderous links on cosmotheism, or any other religion, within Wiki articles.
I will only "go away", only when you and your own "ilk" also "demand" that those slanderous cosmotheism "criticism links" are also deleted as well.
Otherwise, no deal.
-PV
regardless of how nutty its proponents may be, jew watch is a valid external link regarding critcism, heck, its the #1 google hit for "jew". I would think you'd prefer to take note, and se what these guys are saying. Anyhow I insist that its a valid link. Sam Spade 20:32, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
IMO anti-semite views have a place on this article as criticism and detractors have a place on nearly every other contentious article. Clearly no one thinks they should over run the page, but an external link? Lets be reasonable, and allow some 7th grade jew doing a report on judaism to have access to what sort of people have been persecuting his people, and what their rationales are. Sam Spade 23:05, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
\ "Anti-Zionist" or "Anti Jewish-Supremacism", is actually more like it!
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."-George Santayana
For example, does one historical genocide ever justify another?
===Palestinian Holocaust and Genocide by Israel---1948-Present?
Editorial Reviews of: "Jewish History Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3000 years" by Israel Shahak.
From Booklist:
Shahak, who came to Israel in 1945 after surviving the concentration camp in Belsen during the Holocaust, contends that the potential for Israel's right-wing Jewish religious movements to seize power represents a threat to the peace of Israel and to the Zionist movement. He posits that Israel as a Jewish state constitutes a danger not only to itself and its inhabitants, but to all Jews and to all other people and states in the Middle East. Shahak, who was raised as an Orthodox Jew, condemns what he sees as discrimination against non-Jewish citizens of Israel. The real test facing both Israeli and diaspora Jews is the test of their self-criticism, which must include the critique of the Jewish past. Most disturbing, Shahak insists that the religion, in its classical and talmudic form, is "poisoning minds and hearts." This controversial attack of Israel by a Jew is bound to alarm Jewry worldwide. George Cohen --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.
--- ""Anti-semites"??????
INDEED!!!!
Are NOT the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE also SEMITES?????"
:The term "anti-Semite" is a
misnomer.
Of course, and completely regardless of whomever coined the term "anti-semite" it is a factual misnomer especially because the oppressed and dispossessed and murdered Palestinian People are also "SEMITES", so for any "Jewish-Zionist supremacists" to exclusively call their own critics "anti-semites", instead of "anti-Jewish-Zionist Supremacists", considering what they are actually doing to their own fellow brother "Semites" in Palestine, is the just height of their own quite typical lying hypocrisy and psychological projection.