This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I would like to note that orthodox Judaism is not a movement and is simply defined as the most conservative form of Judaism. As such it means the same thing as traditional, while traditional has the connotation that it no longer applies, and of course this is not so in the opinion of the orthodox. Ezra Wax
No, Orthodox Judaism does not mean traditional. It is simply one resonse to a number of historical phenomena, beginning with the Enlightenment. In fact, I know plenty of people who argue that Orthodox Judaism has strayed so far from traditional Judaism that it can no longer be considered Judaism. Furthermore, where on earth did you get the idea that "traditional has the connotation that it no longer applies"? Finally, we generally don't remove Talk pages. If you want, you can archive it, but please put it back. Danny
I have no problem archiving the talk page, but I am not sure how it is usually done. Ezra Wax
What is your argument that orthodox Judaism has strayed from traditional Judaism? Ezra Wax
Of course it has. Danny
That is not much of an argument. I do admit it has changed, but although many changes were and are controversial, it has generally been accepted in orthodox circles that the changes have followed the dictates of halacha. Ezra Wax
I maintain that orthodoxy has the narrowest definitions of what sorts of changes are permissible, as far as halacha is concerned. I define Judaism as the beliefs that Jews have regarding what is required of them by God, as such, orthodox Judaism is the most conservative, and anything regarded as acceptable by orthodox Judaism would be acceptable to all Jews. Ezra Wax
Common Orthodox argument, but essentially flawed. Just because the definitions are narrowest doesn't make them correct. Perhaps change is necessary (there is precedent for that: Yohanan Ben Zakkai for one). Nor are all things acceptable to Orthodox Jews acceptable to all Jews. I know plenty of people who will not pray at services with a mechitza (a division between men and women). Kollel is especially problematic, since a very strong case can be made that it is actually a violation of "traditional" halachah (see Pirkei Avot, Maimonides, the Chatam Sofer on Sukkot, etc.). There are many other examples too. Danny
I will modify my claims. The orthodox procedures for modifying accepted practice, are the most conservative, as such orthodox halacha can be best justified by traditional sources. Although movements such as Chassidus were considered radical in their time, and thus were not orthodox when introduced, they subsequently have become orthodox by the universal acceptance of all, but the most radical Chassidim. Ezra Wax
RK: What did I write that was false? What was polemical about what I wrote? I object to the intermingling of orthodox and non-orthodox views in this article. I believe that the views should be cleanly separated. I also object to the description of Jewish beliefs relative to those of Christianity. Any comparison of the two sets of beliefs should be done as an aside rather as the main point of a paragraph. I also object to a description that relies on philosophical terms to describe Jewish beliefs. Ezra Wax
Ezra Wax recently made a curious addition. In an out of quote context from the Talmud, Ezra Wax tried to define a Jew as literally any human being who is not an idolator. This is most certainly not the traditional Jewish position, nor for that matter, is this belief accepted by Orthodox Jews. Both Orthodox Jews and non-Orthodox Talmud historians agree that this phrase was written as as non-legal rhetoric; it was an exegerration. It was never undertood literally; further, no Jewish denomination accepts this as an actual way of defining a Jew today. The rabbis of the Talmud had many good things to say about gentiles that were not idolators, and the highest compliment they had was that someone was virtually a Jew themselves. But taken out of context, as it was in the article, is extremely misleading.
Someone recently aded a load of material. Someone else removed it for the sole reason that it was added "too fast." I personally did not like the material, but just because there was too much is no reason to remove it. Danny
"assimilation" is a good word to use Vera Cruz
Here are just a few references to works by historians, demographers, and rabbis that describe the assimilation of the modern Jewish community, and who use the specific word "assimilation". This is the mainstream use and understanding of this word.
Danny, I maintain my own personal library of books and photocopied articles from various journals, more so than you would find in the homes of most Jewish laypeople. But I am trying to re-read your words in a different light. Now that I do so, I will agree with you that the term acculturation is a valid way to describe this issue as well. How about this compromise? From your survery of the literature, describe the range of meanings that this term usually refers to. And do the same for the word assimilation. Then fit this into the contested sentence. A Google serach shows that the term "Jewish community" +"assimilation" is about seven times more common than "Jewish community" +'acculturation", but that disparity means two things: (A) Assimilation is the preferred term, but (B) It is not preferred exclusively, and in fact the difference in useage is less than an order of magnitude. Thus both terms are considered valid in common use. RK
RK, I do not deny that assimilation is in widespread use. On the contrary, it is in too widespread use in my opinion. Within the Jewish community, it has taken on negative connotations that I reject. For example, the examples you quoted above (loss of Yiddish, Hebrew, prayer, etc.) are not necessarily negative phenomena. In fact, the rise of Yiddish (Ladino, Tat, Judeo-French, etc.) was also a result of acculturation. Unfortunately, too many people claim these are negative responses, while in fact, this process of combing cultures and integrating non-Jewih practices in Jewish life has been going on for thousands of years. Just take the names of the Jewish months, for example. They are Babylonian in origin (I am not willing to get into an argument about the origins of Purim, Chanukkah, etc., but suffice it to say that there are those that claim). In fact, and this is a POV statement, "assimilation" has benefited Jewish life in many ways. Furthermore, there are plenty of people who identify as Jews who are in no way "religious." The Bund, Labor Zionism, Yiddishists, etc. They have acculturated by incorporating non-Jewish ideas and trendsm, but they have not assimilated. Perhaps that is why there is a trend to move away from assimilation with its negative connotations, and move to acculturation, which is, at least for now, neutral. 208.184.43.162
That's exactly what I meant. Danny
--- Orthodox Judaism: This group of movements includes Hasidic Judaism, Ultra-Orthodox Judaism and Modern Orthodox Judaism
Yeah, RK is right. - 'Vert
Re: the recent edits about Jews who convert to another religion: the glaring question left unanswered is whether their children are Jews. Supposing a Jewish couple converted to Islam, then had kids, would the kids be considered Jewish? Also, it would be nice if all discussions of Jewish law had references, so if there's a dispute, it's clear whose ruling says what. DanKeshet
When a Jewish man comitts apostasy by willingly adopting another faith of his/her won free will, it sets in motion a chain of events that are easy to describein theory, but hard to work out in practice. If a Jewish man joins another faith and marries a gentile woman, their children are non considered Jewish by Jewish law. If a Jewish man joins another faith and marries a Jewish woman, then his children are still Jewish under Jewish law. However, if these children are raised in this other faith (e.g. Hinduism or Christianity) then the Jewish response to them varies. If they stay in that non-Jewish faith, they are not part of the Jewish community, and are effectively lost to the Jewish community for good. If they ever desire to become a part of the Jewish community in good standing, they can theoretically just decale their Jewishness and start attending their local synagogue. A conversation with their local rabbi on this subject is considered to be in order. Given the massive changes in the Jewish community that have occured since the enlightenement, many rabbis of all denominations are worried about the defacto flexible boundaries between non-Judaism and Judaism. Some rabbis and Jewish communal leaders are not comfortable with people who lived their livesd as Christians suddenly saying that they are Jewish, and wanting to be accepted as such. Some of this reluctance comes from their being burned by people who claim that they have "returned to Judaism", yet insist on maintaining some of their previous religion's beliefs. As such, some rabbis insist that such a person make a public show of good faith upon returning to the Jewish community, such as signing up for Jewish adult education classes, or even immersing in a mikveh in a return-to-Judaism ceremony that is based upon the ceremony for conversion. RK
In Conservative Judaism, the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards of the Rabbinical Assembly maintains that the child of a Jewish apostate, who has been committed to and socialized in a Christian church, be required to undergo a reentry ritual such as tevila (an immersion in a ritual bath). Most Orthodox rabbis maintain that the Shulkhan Arukh and other classic codes of Jewish law do not mandate this course, but given the current social circumstances Conservative rabbis find a compelling need to be strict. Both Conservative and Orthodox Judaism grant rabbis a wide leeway to handle each person's case uniquely. RK
Its the difference between a universalist religion and an ethnic religion, isnt it? The debate is essentially between Orthodox and Reform Jews, as to whether Judaism is to be a Universalist religion or not, as I understand it, and the Israeli Supreme Court just chimed in (What business a state court has in ruling on affairs of religion I dont know) on this issue last summer didnt they - Saying that ordained Jews are Jews, period? - 豎眩\
I think that Judaism does claim that is is a factual truth about our world that one God exists, and that God is not a duality or trinity. In this sense, Judaism is making a claim that it wants all people to accept as true. Whether this is a "universal" claim depends on how you define the word. Various prayers in the siddur and verses in the Tanakh hold that at some point in the future, in the messianic era, all people will come to realize this truth about God. However, at the same time, Judaism does not demand that all people must convert to Judaism, nor does it demand that people will necessarilly convert to Judaism even in the messianic era! According to Judaism, God doesn't mind so much if some people happen to be in error on this point. Dualism, Trinitarianism and atheism are all rejected by Judaism as incorrect beliefs, yet holding such incorrect beliefs does not damn one to hell, and it does not cause any form of punishment. Rather, God judges individuals based on their behavior. RK
Mkmcconn writes "I just can't seem to make it over the hump of my Christian assumptions to understand what you are saying, RK. After all, the ten commandments are instructions in both, the behavior of the mind and heart, and of the body too. It's not as though worshipping idols is spoken of in Scripture as though it were a little peccadillo, like over-eating, or an embarrassing error like the speeling mistakes that children make."
My friend herebthinks that judaism and hebrew are the same thing are they?
Who is smarter dolpfins or monkeys ?
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I would like to note that orthodox Judaism is not a movement and is simply defined as the most conservative form of Judaism. As such it means the same thing as traditional, while traditional has the connotation that it no longer applies, and of course this is not so in the opinion of the orthodox. Ezra Wax
No, Orthodox Judaism does not mean traditional. It is simply one resonse to a number of historical phenomena, beginning with the Enlightenment. In fact, I know plenty of people who argue that Orthodox Judaism has strayed so far from traditional Judaism that it can no longer be considered Judaism. Furthermore, where on earth did you get the idea that "traditional has the connotation that it no longer applies"? Finally, we generally don't remove Talk pages. If you want, you can archive it, but please put it back. Danny
I have no problem archiving the talk page, but I am not sure how it is usually done. Ezra Wax
What is your argument that orthodox Judaism has strayed from traditional Judaism? Ezra Wax
Of course it has. Danny
That is not much of an argument. I do admit it has changed, but although many changes were and are controversial, it has generally been accepted in orthodox circles that the changes have followed the dictates of halacha. Ezra Wax
I maintain that orthodoxy has the narrowest definitions of what sorts of changes are permissible, as far as halacha is concerned. I define Judaism as the beliefs that Jews have regarding what is required of them by God, as such, orthodox Judaism is the most conservative, and anything regarded as acceptable by orthodox Judaism would be acceptable to all Jews. Ezra Wax
Common Orthodox argument, but essentially flawed. Just because the definitions are narrowest doesn't make them correct. Perhaps change is necessary (there is precedent for that: Yohanan Ben Zakkai for one). Nor are all things acceptable to Orthodox Jews acceptable to all Jews. I know plenty of people who will not pray at services with a mechitza (a division between men and women). Kollel is especially problematic, since a very strong case can be made that it is actually a violation of "traditional" halachah (see Pirkei Avot, Maimonides, the Chatam Sofer on Sukkot, etc.). There are many other examples too. Danny
I will modify my claims. The orthodox procedures for modifying accepted practice, are the most conservative, as such orthodox halacha can be best justified by traditional sources. Although movements such as Chassidus were considered radical in their time, and thus were not orthodox when introduced, they subsequently have become orthodox by the universal acceptance of all, but the most radical Chassidim. Ezra Wax
RK: What did I write that was false? What was polemical about what I wrote? I object to the intermingling of orthodox and non-orthodox views in this article. I believe that the views should be cleanly separated. I also object to the description of Jewish beliefs relative to those of Christianity. Any comparison of the two sets of beliefs should be done as an aside rather as the main point of a paragraph. I also object to a description that relies on philosophical terms to describe Jewish beliefs. Ezra Wax
Ezra Wax recently made a curious addition. In an out of quote context from the Talmud, Ezra Wax tried to define a Jew as literally any human being who is not an idolator. This is most certainly not the traditional Jewish position, nor for that matter, is this belief accepted by Orthodox Jews. Both Orthodox Jews and non-Orthodox Talmud historians agree that this phrase was written as as non-legal rhetoric; it was an exegerration. It was never undertood literally; further, no Jewish denomination accepts this as an actual way of defining a Jew today. The rabbis of the Talmud had many good things to say about gentiles that were not idolators, and the highest compliment they had was that someone was virtually a Jew themselves. But taken out of context, as it was in the article, is extremely misleading.
Someone recently aded a load of material. Someone else removed it for the sole reason that it was added "too fast." I personally did not like the material, but just because there was too much is no reason to remove it. Danny
"assimilation" is a good word to use Vera Cruz
Here are just a few references to works by historians, demographers, and rabbis that describe the assimilation of the modern Jewish community, and who use the specific word "assimilation". This is the mainstream use and understanding of this word.
Danny, I maintain my own personal library of books and photocopied articles from various journals, more so than you would find in the homes of most Jewish laypeople. But I am trying to re-read your words in a different light. Now that I do so, I will agree with you that the term acculturation is a valid way to describe this issue as well. How about this compromise? From your survery of the literature, describe the range of meanings that this term usually refers to. And do the same for the word assimilation. Then fit this into the contested sentence. A Google serach shows that the term "Jewish community" +"assimilation" is about seven times more common than "Jewish community" +'acculturation", but that disparity means two things: (A) Assimilation is the preferred term, but (B) It is not preferred exclusively, and in fact the difference in useage is less than an order of magnitude. Thus both terms are considered valid in common use. RK
RK, I do not deny that assimilation is in widespread use. On the contrary, it is in too widespread use in my opinion. Within the Jewish community, it has taken on negative connotations that I reject. For example, the examples you quoted above (loss of Yiddish, Hebrew, prayer, etc.) are not necessarily negative phenomena. In fact, the rise of Yiddish (Ladino, Tat, Judeo-French, etc.) was also a result of acculturation. Unfortunately, too many people claim these are negative responses, while in fact, this process of combing cultures and integrating non-Jewih practices in Jewish life has been going on for thousands of years. Just take the names of the Jewish months, for example. They are Babylonian in origin (I am not willing to get into an argument about the origins of Purim, Chanukkah, etc., but suffice it to say that there are those that claim). In fact, and this is a POV statement, "assimilation" has benefited Jewish life in many ways. Furthermore, there are plenty of people who identify as Jews who are in no way "religious." The Bund, Labor Zionism, Yiddishists, etc. They have acculturated by incorporating non-Jewish ideas and trendsm, but they have not assimilated. Perhaps that is why there is a trend to move away from assimilation with its negative connotations, and move to acculturation, which is, at least for now, neutral. 208.184.43.162
That's exactly what I meant. Danny
--- Orthodox Judaism: This group of movements includes Hasidic Judaism, Ultra-Orthodox Judaism and Modern Orthodox Judaism
Yeah, RK is right. - 'Vert
Re: the recent edits about Jews who convert to another religion: the glaring question left unanswered is whether their children are Jews. Supposing a Jewish couple converted to Islam, then had kids, would the kids be considered Jewish? Also, it would be nice if all discussions of Jewish law had references, so if there's a dispute, it's clear whose ruling says what. DanKeshet
When a Jewish man comitts apostasy by willingly adopting another faith of his/her won free will, it sets in motion a chain of events that are easy to describein theory, but hard to work out in practice. If a Jewish man joins another faith and marries a gentile woman, their children are non considered Jewish by Jewish law. If a Jewish man joins another faith and marries a Jewish woman, then his children are still Jewish under Jewish law. However, if these children are raised in this other faith (e.g. Hinduism or Christianity) then the Jewish response to them varies. If they stay in that non-Jewish faith, they are not part of the Jewish community, and are effectively lost to the Jewish community for good. If they ever desire to become a part of the Jewish community in good standing, they can theoretically just decale their Jewishness and start attending their local synagogue. A conversation with their local rabbi on this subject is considered to be in order. Given the massive changes in the Jewish community that have occured since the enlightenement, many rabbis of all denominations are worried about the defacto flexible boundaries between non-Judaism and Judaism. Some rabbis and Jewish communal leaders are not comfortable with people who lived their livesd as Christians suddenly saying that they are Jewish, and wanting to be accepted as such. Some of this reluctance comes from their being burned by people who claim that they have "returned to Judaism", yet insist on maintaining some of their previous religion's beliefs. As such, some rabbis insist that such a person make a public show of good faith upon returning to the Jewish community, such as signing up for Jewish adult education classes, or even immersing in a mikveh in a return-to-Judaism ceremony that is based upon the ceremony for conversion. RK
In Conservative Judaism, the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards of the Rabbinical Assembly maintains that the child of a Jewish apostate, who has been committed to and socialized in a Christian church, be required to undergo a reentry ritual such as tevila (an immersion in a ritual bath). Most Orthodox rabbis maintain that the Shulkhan Arukh and other classic codes of Jewish law do not mandate this course, but given the current social circumstances Conservative rabbis find a compelling need to be strict. Both Conservative and Orthodox Judaism grant rabbis a wide leeway to handle each person's case uniquely. RK
Its the difference between a universalist religion and an ethnic religion, isnt it? The debate is essentially between Orthodox and Reform Jews, as to whether Judaism is to be a Universalist religion or not, as I understand it, and the Israeli Supreme Court just chimed in (What business a state court has in ruling on affairs of religion I dont know) on this issue last summer didnt they - Saying that ordained Jews are Jews, period? - 豎眩\
I think that Judaism does claim that is is a factual truth about our world that one God exists, and that God is not a duality or trinity. In this sense, Judaism is making a claim that it wants all people to accept as true. Whether this is a "universal" claim depends on how you define the word. Various prayers in the siddur and verses in the Tanakh hold that at some point in the future, in the messianic era, all people will come to realize this truth about God. However, at the same time, Judaism does not demand that all people must convert to Judaism, nor does it demand that people will necessarilly convert to Judaism even in the messianic era! According to Judaism, God doesn't mind so much if some people happen to be in error on this point. Dualism, Trinitarianism and atheism are all rejected by Judaism as incorrect beliefs, yet holding such incorrect beliefs does not damn one to hell, and it does not cause any form of punishment. Rather, God judges individuals based on their behavior. RK
Mkmcconn writes "I just can't seem to make it over the hump of my Christian assumptions to understand what you are saying, RK. After all, the ten commandments are instructions in both, the behavior of the mind and heart, and of the body too. It's not as though worshipping idols is spoken of in Scripture as though it were a little peccadillo, like over-eating, or an embarrassing error like the speeling mistakes that children make."
My friend herebthinks that judaism and hebrew are the same thing are they?
Who is smarter dolpfins or monkeys ?