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Most of the references and material on this articles is taken from some notable figures such as: Introvigne Massimo (Sociologist of religion), Christopher Hugh Partridge (Author, editor, professor at Lancaster University and founding co-director of the Center for the Study of Religion and Popular Culture), McBride, Jaemes (Journalist and American writer), Egil Asprem (Researcher from the Center for History of Hermetic Philosophy), History
Introvigne's book, Satanism A Social History includes a chapter about the Joy of Satan, Jesper Aagaard Petersen also covers the topic in quite a lot of pages in "Between Darwin and the Devil" so its credibility is beyond a mere trivial mention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueGhast (talk • contribs) 03:00, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
As well various books, and writings taken from University papers. Also includes press articles from The Economist.
Also, most of the references I have personally bought but I'll try to find source location if I can. But many can be verified with google.scholars and google.books to show that the content is indeed referenced. I can provide screenshots for specific references if needed, I'd appreciate input.
Therefore, article should meet notability expectations. Article was also further revised and edited by me and some others according to encyclopedic tone, but article was already reviewed prior to being tagged. Any problems? otherwise criteria has been met for notability and other issues BlueGhast ( talk) 22:26, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
As suggested by editor and admin, sections will be rewritten. I apologize for all the errors, and appreciate the feedback.
For others interested, the neutrality of this article is a conflict between individuals who may be actual members of the JoS, individuals who personally disagree with group and/or those of Jewish background who may be (rightfully) offended by the content of this article, with Wikipedia's policy of article neutrality. However, it's important that material be relevant to the appropriate article. The events of the NSM should be further described in the NSM article, imo, but it definitely should be mentioned here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueGhast ( talk • contribs) 02:05, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
It's been claimed by editor that founder of website, Maxine, is "deceased". The only known source for this claim is from the "searchpeoplefree" database. The credibility of the source is vague.
I've noticed there are numerous inconsistencies on the website. While it states the current status of Maxine is "deceased", under section "Common Questions About Andrea M Dietrich", one question asks "Is Andrea M Dietrich still alive or has Andrea M Dietrich died?" and states Yes, Andrea is alive.". It also states Maxine is 58 years old, so the section is indeed up to date. In addition, it also claims that "Andrea is not known to have been married," however, we've believed Andrea to be the wife of Clifford Herrington since there are numerous sources to support this claim. Is this not true? If so, this would change a lot of things. If editor can provide more than one source, or further information, such as death records, that would help the credibility of this claim. For now it'd be best to hold back until it can be confirmed with other reliable sources. BlueGhast ( talk)
Update* Further evaluation proves inconsistencies with claim. Records from copyright.gov shows the copyright claimant of the "The Joy of Satan", as "Andrea Maxine Dietrich, 1962- ", in which it does not state 2020 to be Maxine's year of death. Unless it's yet to be updated, editors claim is still uncertain. Referring URL: http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=Joy%20of%20Satan%20Ministries&Search_Code=FT%2A&CNT=25&PID=tTsIdrKd-HcjDMM3x1uDvdH9JMgFO&SEQ=20170304235717&SID=3 BlueGhast ( talk) 8 April 2021
I recall there being some articles on this but all seem to have disappeared without a trace for some strange reason. It was originally covered by "My Tulsa World" Newspaper but was pulled off their site awhile after. If anyone has time to do a thorough search for archives, I'd appreciate it thanks.
Here is only some info I can provide to help: Maxine's description of event:
After a long while of extensive digging, and inquiring with some individuals involved, I was only able to uncover very little material of the event. Credibility wise that is. But all of it does indeed imply that the incident took place and was definetely intended for either Clifford or Andrea.
www.stormfront.org/forum/t306908 - "Media Covering up ADL Bombing Attempt???" White Nationalist forum thread of the incident from 2006. Created a few days after the event. Has many posts with a lot of dead end leads, as in the leads have been erased. No archives exist but the posts do provide some insight on what happened and in regards to the articles suddenly "disappearing".
"The 30 Year war against the nsfm" - PDF Could be found on google, basically the events described by Clifford. Includes news article with pictures. Pages 27-28
Interesting info from page 28:
"Miscarried bomb attempt on CD Herrington Chairman NSM & passenger (founder of JOS Religious organization) Bomb Squad Events of June 30th, 2006 Tulsa Oklahoma Walmart parking Lot 8:28pm"
"This report was subsequently reported in the Inqulab Newspaper Daca, Bangladesh in August, the owner of the paper, an ex Intelligence aide of Suddam Hussein, the contacts thru which it appeared after the blackout, suddenly disappeared."
Retrieved Articles/Archives
The last surviving piece of info that proves the legitamacy of the event, which proves that The Tulsa World reported an article of the event and then withdrew it for some unknown and unexplained reason. Article is broken in some parts but the info is there. Comments also describe Clifford as being the target. BlueGhast ( talk) 23:07, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Looking for more info on this, with credible source material of course. Just need an article that describes the beginning and closure of it.
The FCoS website's "historical archive" is still in development, unfortunately.
The reason why this is relevant is because Maxine is said to have had a significant position here.
BlueGhast ( talk) 00:46, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
As said, the links are a necessary and official part of the religious organization. The links provide readers material for further research of the JoS organizations ideology. How it affects their ideological/political perception is up to them. Article is to provide users an understanding about organization legacy and how it emerged into the theistic Satanic scene as the most controversial sect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueGhast ( talk • contribs) 16:09, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Links to pages full of antisemitic rants and "quotes" from false sources such as the Elders of Zion do not provide any material for further research. This is not the proper place to recruit for a Neonazi group. Bluefin9 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:14, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
There's not enough valid sources to cover all of the organization ideological beliefs, the links provide clear and necessary solution and information to what the organization is about and also informs readers what they're getting into. BlueGhast ( talk) 16:40, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Copied from the ANI discussion: This whole article is a mess. Unreliable sources, vanity press books, pseudo-academic journals from non-profits, primary sources, a Master's thesis that's not widely cited by other scholars, etc. A doctoral thesis is cited throughout the article but many of those citations are the author giving examples of primary sources or listing organizations, not his own opinion. Meanwhile, academic database searches like JSTOR and Google News return plenty of sources on "Joy of Satan" but none of them are used, which suggests serious POV issues. Woodroar ( talk) 17:09, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Should we include external links to the Joy of Satan Ministries and other related organizations outside of the infobox?
Chess (
talk) (please use {{
reply to|Chess}}
on reply)
00:46, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
{{
reply to|Chess}}
on reply)
00:46, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Just a note because my edit summary wasn't clear and I prefer posting here rather than making a null edit: it seems that this group does appeal to one of their angels, as some author noted, although for mislead reasons (accusations that they "worship the devil" exist). It's partly in the body anyway, where the see also instance was WP:OVERLINKING and potentially an WP:UNDUE "by association" suggestion. I didn't take the time, but it's possible that secondary sources about the group also include some details putting those beliefs in context, in which case the article could reflect that... — Paleo Neonate – 11:23, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
What is happening in the “further reading” section on this article? Is this a reading list recommended by the organization itself? If it is, that should be mentioned somewhere. Cheers, postleft ✍ (Arugula) ☞ say hello! 04:55, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
Earlier, I began an editing spree with the intention of fixing this article, since in its current state it is inadmissible as an encyclopedic entry. I have quickly found that very few, if any, of the sources are themselves admissible. Here’s my assessment (warning: long):
Source assessment table:
| ||||
Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
---|---|---|---|---|
Between Darwin and the Devil: Modern Satanism as Discourse, Milieu, and Self | ~ The source is a thesis, but appears to be cited by reliable sources, and its author appears to be in good standing in his field. | The source discusses the subject directly, but with little detail. | ✘ No | |
"Bracketing Beelzebub: Satanism studies and/as boundary work" | Appears reliable. Affiliated with ESSWE, which again appears to be reliable. | ✘ No | ||
Contemporary Esotericism | ✘ No | |||
"JOY OF SATAN MINISTRIES FOUNDATION" | Assuming this is not considered independent. | ? Primary source. | ? Not applicable? | ✘ No |
"The Joy of Satan" | Ditto. | ? Ditto. | ? Ditto. | ✘ No |
Satanism: A Social History | ? Introvigne is affiliated with CESNUR (not reliable), so I have some doubts. | It gets an entire chapter. | ? Unknown | |
"Satan the Prophet: A History of Modern Satanism" | Resoundingly unreliable. | ✘ No | ||
The Divine Province: Birthing New Earth | I had my doubts, but I did check it out. The writers don’t even appear to be Satanists at all. | Again, just devastatingly unreliable. | Trivial mention. | ✘ No |
The Invention of Satanism | Mentioned with little detail. | ✘ No | ||
The Occult World | I think so, anyway. It was published by Routledge and the author appears to be a respected scholar. | Literally not even mentioned once, not even in passing. | ✘ No | |
"Analysis on the Joy of Satan" | ? Unclear. | Blog. | The source discusses the subject directly and in detail. | ✘ No |
"About the Joy of Satan system of respectful demon evocation" | ? Diane Vera appears to have been in some way affiliated with the organization, according to reliable sources. She may have since distanced herself from it. I am not sure. | Self-published source. | In-depth coverage of JoS’ theology. | ✘ No |
Disturbing Times: Medieval Pasts, Reimagined Futures | ? | There is some minor coverage. | ✘ No | |
"The dark side of Christianity" | ~ The article discusses the subject directly, with some detail. | ✘ No | ||
"Spiritual Satanism - What Is It?" | ? | Some mention. | ✘ No | |
"What do Satanists believe?" | Trivial mention. | ✘ No | ||
"Intuitive, Receptive, Dark": Negotiations of Femininity in the Contemporary Satanic and Left-hand Path Milieu | Does not mention Joy of Satan even once, not even in passing. | ✘ No | ||
The Second Coming of the New Age: The Hidden Dangers of Alternative Spirituality in Contemporary America and Its Churches | ? Defender Publishing appears to be a fundamentalist Christian organization. | ? Could not access book. | ? Unknown | |
The Interrelationship of Leisure and Play | Not mentioned. | ✘ No | ||
The Search for "Meaning": Occult Redefinitions and the Internet | ? Could not access article. | ? Unknown | ||
The Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements: Volume II | ? Could not access book. Search term “Joy of Satan” in Google Books preview returns 1 hit, in a list of other Satanist organizations. | ? Unknown | ||
Hermetic Qabala: A Course in Personal Transformation and Self Empowerment | ? Didn’t find any biographical information about the author in a cursory search. Probably independent, but not sure. | ? Could not access book. Search term “Joy of Satan” in Google Books preview returns zero results. | ✘ No | |
"Sending negative energy against the Church? A completely useless action" | ? Unclear. | Blog. | ✘ No | |
"The national socialist movement implodes" | ~ Article topic is the NSM, but Joy of Satan was inextricably involved with the depicted debacle. | ~ Partial | ||
"The National Socialist Movement" | Not mentioned. | ✘ No | ||
Corpus Secuntra Order of Nine Angles | ? | Not even close. We shouldn’t even link this material. And the person who wrote it isn’t mentioned on the O9A article, at least not under this pseudonym, so… who are they? | ? Don’t care to check. O9A is a neo-Nazi organization regardless of what it says about some obscure also-Nazi-affiliated organization. | ✘ No |
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{ source assess table}}. |
TL;DR: A grand heap of nothing. And as mentioned above, I don’t know what’s happening with the “Further reading” section. This is all very, very strange. postleft ✍ (Arugula) ☞ say hello! 07:01, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
I’m a bit conflicted here because I actually think this article (in principle) could be useful and cover an interesting story, but the sourcing doesn’t seem to be there. I don’t yet have access to the Wikipedia Library thingy, if anyone else does, maybe one could check and see if any newspapers covered the story at the time? One or two contemporary newspaper articles should be enough to tip the scales (and, worst case scenario, it can be merged into the NSM article and the story can be enumerated there). postleft on mobile! 14:09, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
I hope the primary editor of this page returns here. I’d like to ask them some questions and possibly work with them to improve the article. postleft ✍ (Arugula) ☞ say hello! 15:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
BlueGhast ( talk) 02:36, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Woodroar: and @ Postleft: Due to the many issues that this article had, as it was probably the most nakedly-biased and horribly-written article I've ever seen on Wikipedia, I proceeded with the necessary cleanup, for the following reasons:
Cheers. GenoV84 ( talk) 10:50, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
References
The party's problems began last June, when Citizens Against Hate discovered that NSM's Tulsa post office box was shared by The Joy of Satan Ministry, in which the wife of NSM chairman emeritus Clifford Herrington is High Priestess. [...] Within NSM ranks, meanwhile, a bitter debate was sparked over the propriety of Herrington's Joy of Satan connections. [...] Schoep moved ahead with damage-control operations by nudging chairman emeritus Herrington from his position under the cover of "attending to personal matters." But it was too late to stop NSM Minister of Radio and Information Michael Blevins, aka Vonbluvens, from following White out of the party, citing disgust with Herrington's Joy of Satan ties. "Satanism," declared Blevins in his resignation letter, "affects the whole prime directive guiding the [NSM] – SURVIVAL OF THE WHITE RACE." [...] NSM was now a Noticeably Smaller Movement, one trailed in extremist circles by a strong whiff of Satanism and related charges of sexual impropriety associated with Joy of Satan initiation rites and curiously strong teen recruitment efforts.
The NSM has had its share of movement scandal. In July 2006, it was rocked by revelations that co-founder and chairman emeritus Cliff Herrington's wife was the "High Priestess" of the Joy of Satan Ministry, and that her satanic church shared an address with the Tulsa, Okla., NSM chapter. The exposure of Herrington's wife's Satanist connections caused quite a stir, particularly among those NSM members who adhered to a racist (and heretical) variant of Christianity, Christian Identity. Before the dust settled, both Herringtons were forced out of NSM. Bill White, the neo-Nazi group's energetic spokesman, also quit, taking several NSM officials with him to create a new group, the American National Socialist Workers Party.
I haven't checked the Ph.D. thesis written by Jesper Aagaard Petersen but if it is a reliable source we could still fix it using template:Cite thesis, although maybe it would be more appropriate to move it to the Bibliography section or Further reading section. However, I would object to removing Massimo Introvigne's CESNUR survey on Satanism. Since Introvigne is considered to be one of the foremost scholars in the academic study of New religious movements (especially concerning the field of "Satanism studies" along with Jesper Aagaard Petersen and James R. Lewis), and he's also the founder of CESNUR itself, the source is still relevant and useful.
Anyway, feel free to improve it yourself or with the help of other editors, and many thanks both to you @ Woodroar and @ postleft for keeping an eye on this article. GenoV84 ( talk) 18:16, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
If I may state my input here, the article was currently in the process of of some fixing and reworked after initially going through a consensus with other editors. I was also waiting for the conclusion of the RfC. In reply to the above statements: 1: Article is not completely of my work, this is true, but has gone through revisions before in accordance to other editors suggestions. There have also been about 4 other editors involved in this article. 2: To say that I completely copy pasted from the theistic Satanism article is ludicrous, during its initial developement the project did initially begin with the given sources but as we can see the work has been expanded to a higher extent. 3: Editors personal/biased opinion, it must be noted the editor had a dispute with my edits in the theistic satanism page, it was brought up to admin notice who had warned GenoV84 that he was in violation of AGF (Assuming good faith). 4: Same as 3 5: Same as 3 6: Same as 3 7: I brought this before, but that information belongs in the NSFM article and have told you before if you would like to expand on that it should be brought there. The NSFM article has still been missing info till this date. BlueGhast ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 06:32, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
@
GenoV84 and
BlueGhast: I think it may help if you could make specific suggestions based on policy, with diffs if necessary. GenoV84, you mentioned above that the CESNUR source is still relevant and useful
. At
WP:RSP, CESNUR is noted as an apologia site for new religious movements, and thus is inherently unreliable in its core area due to conflicts of interest. There is also consensus that its content is unreliable on its own merits.
I read through the discussions and Introvigne is specifically called out as unreliable when writing at CESNUR, though reliable through Brill because of their editorial process. You're certainly welcome to bring this up at RSN but the current consensus is that it's not a reliable source.
Woodroar (
talk)
13:59, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
seems less-than-neutral for the topic based on the titleand that
all of these [sources] should go. It's clearly an amateur source, written pseudonymously in first person. Looking through that "Interviews and public relations" link, I don't see any mentions from reputable sources. The closest is Vice Media, and we list them as "no consensus" at WP:RSP. The same is true when looking through Google News, which strongly suggests they lack the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy that WP:V requires. Woodroar ( talk) 01:04, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
Very well, ISU and Cesnur sources removed. BlueGhast ( talk) 23:34, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Scarabaes: please join the discussion rather than simply reverting. As far as I can tell, these were good edits, supported by policy and multiple editors. Woodroar ( talk) 22:37, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Personally, I think that I’ve done more than enough and don't consider myself useful anymore. Since this article, in its current version, lends itself to misunderstandings, as well as being highly divisive, I personally feel that I should take a step back and let the other users proceed without me. I consider this to be the best decision for all parties involved in this discussion. GenoV84 ( talk) 11:28, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Aside from necessary edits according to policy, any edits regarding NPOV and/or credibility will be discussed here. According to Wikipedia's policy on NPOV disputes, editors should tag section with POV and then explain in the talk page.
I know some of the articles state her name is Andrea Herrington, but official government documents indicate at some point later this name was changed/corrected accordingly to her alias. Which is now her actual name. This may also indicate something going on with the alleged connection between Andrea and Clifford Herrington. This will be taken up with W:RS/PS for further evaluation of these government documents. These documents are also necessary to identify the group as a non-profit church btw. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueGhast ( talk • contribs) 19:32, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
The term "neo-nazism" being used in the sentence would imply that JoS adopts its ideologies from a post ww2 nazi movement when it's a fact that it derives its fundementals directly from the original nazi ideology. Imo, it's unnecessary and misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueGhast ( talk • contribs) 01:04, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
...or what else do you call this? Their relation between Satan, with no second element on the other side of between: their relation between Satan and whom (or what)? Nuttyskin ( talk) 20:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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|
Most of the references and material on this articles is taken from some notable figures such as: Introvigne Massimo (Sociologist of religion), Christopher Hugh Partridge (Author, editor, professor at Lancaster University and founding co-director of the Center for the Study of Religion and Popular Culture), McBride, Jaemes (Journalist and American writer), Egil Asprem (Researcher from the Center for History of Hermetic Philosophy), History
Introvigne's book, Satanism A Social History includes a chapter about the Joy of Satan, Jesper Aagaard Petersen also covers the topic in quite a lot of pages in "Between Darwin and the Devil" so its credibility is beyond a mere trivial mention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueGhast (talk • contribs) 03:00, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
As well various books, and writings taken from University papers. Also includes press articles from The Economist.
Also, most of the references I have personally bought but I'll try to find source location if I can. But many can be verified with google.scholars and google.books to show that the content is indeed referenced. I can provide screenshots for specific references if needed, I'd appreciate input.
Therefore, article should meet notability expectations. Article was also further revised and edited by me and some others according to encyclopedic tone, but article was already reviewed prior to being tagged. Any problems? otherwise criteria has been met for notability and other issues BlueGhast ( talk) 22:26, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
As suggested by editor and admin, sections will be rewritten. I apologize for all the errors, and appreciate the feedback.
For others interested, the neutrality of this article is a conflict between individuals who may be actual members of the JoS, individuals who personally disagree with group and/or those of Jewish background who may be (rightfully) offended by the content of this article, with Wikipedia's policy of article neutrality. However, it's important that material be relevant to the appropriate article. The events of the NSM should be further described in the NSM article, imo, but it definitely should be mentioned here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueGhast ( talk • contribs) 02:05, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
It's been claimed by editor that founder of website, Maxine, is "deceased". The only known source for this claim is from the "searchpeoplefree" database. The credibility of the source is vague.
I've noticed there are numerous inconsistencies on the website. While it states the current status of Maxine is "deceased", under section "Common Questions About Andrea M Dietrich", one question asks "Is Andrea M Dietrich still alive or has Andrea M Dietrich died?" and states Yes, Andrea is alive.". It also states Maxine is 58 years old, so the section is indeed up to date. In addition, it also claims that "Andrea is not known to have been married," however, we've believed Andrea to be the wife of Clifford Herrington since there are numerous sources to support this claim. Is this not true? If so, this would change a lot of things. If editor can provide more than one source, or further information, such as death records, that would help the credibility of this claim. For now it'd be best to hold back until it can be confirmed with other reliable sources. BlueGhast ( talk)
Update* Further evaluation proves inconsistencies with claim. Records from copyright.gov shows the copyright claimant of the "The Joy of Satan", as "Andrea Maxine Dietrich, 1962- ", in which it does not state 2020 to be Maxine's year of death. Unless it's yet to be updated, editors claim is still uncertain. Referring URL: http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1,1&Search_Arg=Joy%20of%20Satan%20Ministries&Search_Code=FT%2A&CNT=25&PID=tTsIdrKd-HcjDMM3x1uDvdH9JMgFO&SEQ=20170304235717&SID=3 BlueGhast ( talk) 8 April 2021
I recall there being some articles on this but all seem to have disappeared without a trace for some strange reason. It was originally covered by "My Tulsa World" Newspaper but was pulled off their site awhile after. If anyone has time to do a thorough search for archives, I'd appreciate it thanks.
Here is only some info I can provide to help: Maxine's description of event:
After a long while of extensive digging, and inquiring with some individuals involved, I was only able to uncover very little material of the event. Credibility wise that is. But all of it does indeed imply that the incident took place and was definetely intended for either Clifford or Andrea.
www.stormfront.org/forum/t306908 - "Media Covering up ADL Bombing Attempt???" White Nationalist forum thread of the incident from 2006. Created a few days after the event. Has many posts with a lot of dead end leads, as in the leads have been erased. No archives exist but the posts do provide some insight on what happened and in regards to the articles suddenly "disappearing".
"The 30 Year war against the nsfm" - PDF Could be found on google, basically the events described by Clifford. Includes news article with pictures. Pages 27-28
Interesting info from page 28:
"Miscarried bomb attempt on CD Herrington Chairman NSM & passenger (founder of JOS Religious organization) Bomb Squad Events of June 30th, 2006 Tulsa Oklahoma Walmart parking Lot 8:28pm"
"This report was subsequently reported in the Inqulab Newspaper Daca, Bangladesh in August, the owner of the paper, an ex Intelligence aide of Suddam Hussein, the contacts thru which it appeared after the blackout, suddenly disappeared."
Retrieved Articles/Archives
The last surviving piece of info that proves the legitamacy of the event, which proves that The Tulsa World reported an article of the event and then withdrew it for some unknown and unexplained reason. Article is broken in some parts but the info is there. Comments also describe Clifford as being the target. BlueGhast ( talk) 23:07, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Looking for more info on this, with credible source material of course. Just need an article that describes the beginning and closure of it.
The FCoS website's "historical archive" is still in development, unfortunately.
The reason why this is relevant is because Maxine is said to have had a significant position here.
BlueGhast ( talk) 00:46, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
As said, the links are a necessary and official part of the religious organization. The links provide readers material for further research of the JoS organizations ideology. How it affects their ideological/political perception is up to them. Article is to provide users an understanding about organization legacy and how it emerged into the theistic Satanic scene as the most controversial sect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueGhast ( talk • contribs) 16:09, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Links to pages full of antisemitic rants and "quotes" from false sources such as the Elders of Zion do not provide any material for further research. This is not the proper place to recruit for a Neonazi group. Bluefin9 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:14, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
There's not enough valid sources to cover all of the organization ideological beliefs, the links provide clear and necessary solution and information to what the organization is about and also informs readers what they're getting into. BlueGhast ( talk) 16:40, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Copied from the ANI discussion: This whole article is a mess. Unreliable sources, vanity press books, pseudo-academic journals from non-profits, primary sources, a Master's thesis that's not widely cited by other scholars, etc. A doctoral thesis is cited throughout the article but many of those citations are the author giving examples of primary sources or listing organizations, not his own opinion. Meanwhile, academic database searches like JSTOR and Google News return plenty of sources on "Joy of Satan" but none of them are used, which suggests serious POV issues. Woodroar ( talk) 17:09, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Should we include external links to the Joy of Satan Ministries and other related organizations outside of the infobox?
Chess (
talk) (please use {{
reply to|Chess}}
on reply)
00:46, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
{{
reply to|Chess}}
on reply)
00:46, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Just a note because my edit summary wasn't clear and I prefer posting here rather than making a null edit: it seems that this group does appeal to one of their angels, as some author noted, although for mislead reasons (accusations that they "worship the devil" exist). It's partly in the body anyway, where the see also instance was WP:OVERLINKING and potentially an WP:UNDUE "by association" suggestion. I didn't take the time, but it's possible that secondary sources about the group also include some details putting those beliefs in context, in which case the article could reflect that... — Paleo Neonate – 11:23, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
What is happening in the “further reading” section on this article? Is this a reading list recommended by the organization itself? If it is, that should be mentioned somewhere. Cheers, postleft ✍ (Arugula) ☞ say hello! 04:55, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
Earlier, I began an editing spree with the intention of fixing this article, since in its current state it is inadmissible as an encyclopedic entry. I have quickly found that very few, if any, of the sources are themselves admissible. Here’s my assessment (warning: long):
Source assessment table:
| ||||
Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
---|---|---|---|---|
Between Darwin and the Devil: Modern Satanism as Discourse, Milieu, and Self | ~ The source is a thesis, but appears to be cited by reliable sources, and its author appears to be in good standing in his field. | The source discusses the subject directly, but with little detail. | ✘ No | |
"Bracketing Beelzebub: Satanism studies and/as boundary work" | Appears reliable. Affiliated with ESSWE, which again appears to be reliable. | ✘ No | ||
Contemporary Esotericism | ✘ No | |||
"JOY OF SATAN MINISTRIES FOUNDATION" | Assuming this is not considered independent. | ? Primary source. | ? Not applicable? | ✘ No |
"The Joy of Satan" | Ditto. | ? Ditto. | ? Ditto. | ✘ No |
Satanism: A Social History | ? Introvigne is affiliated with CESNUR (not reliable), so I have some doubts. | It gets an entire chapter. | ? Unknown | |
"Satan the Prophet: A History of Modern Satanism" | Resoundingly unreliable. | ✘ No | ||
The Divine Province: Birthing New Earth | I had my doubts, but I did check it out. The writers don’t even appear to be Satanists at all. | Again, just devastatingly unreliable. | Trivial mention. | ✘ No |
The Invention of Satanism | Mentioned with little detail. | ✘ No | ||
The Occult World | I think so, anyway. It was published by Routledge and the author appears to be a respected scholar. | Literally not even mentioned once, not even in passing. | ✘ No | |
"Analysis on the Joy of Satan" | ? Unclear. | Blog. | The source discusses the subject directly and in detail. | ✘ No |
"About the Joy of Satan system of respectful demon evocation" | ? Diane Vera appears to have been in some way affiliated with the organization, according to reliable sources. She may have since distanced herself from it. I am not sure. | Self-published source. | In-depth coverage of JoS’ theology. | ✘ No |
Disturbing Times: Medieval Pasts, Reimagined Futures | ? | There is some minor coverage. | ✘ No | |
"The dark side of Christianity" | ~ The article discusses the subject directly, with some detail. | ✘ No | ||
"Spiritual Satanism - What Is It?" | ? | Some mention. | ✘ No | |
"What do Satanists believe?" | Trivial mention. | ✘ No | ||
"Intuitive, Receptive, Dark": Negotiations of Femininity in the Contemporary Satanic and Left-hand Path Milieu | Does not mention Joy of Satan even once, not even in passing. | ✘ No | ||
The Second Coming of the New Age: The Hidden Dangers of Alternative Spirituality in Contemporary America and Its Churches | ? Defender Publishing appears to be a fundamentalist Christian organization. | ? Could not access book. | ? Unknown | |
The Interrelationship of Leisure and Play | Not mentioned. | ✘ No | ||
The Search for "Meaning": Occult Redefinitions and the Internet | ? Could not access article. | ? Unknown | ||
The Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements: Volume II | ? Could not access book. Search term “Joy of Satan” in Google Books preview returns 1 hit, in a list of other Satanist organizations. | ? Unknown | ||
Hermetic Qabala: A Course in Personal Transformation and Self Empowerment | ? Didn’t find any biographical information about the author in a cursory search. Probably independent, but not sure. | ? Could not access book. Search term “Joy of Satan” in Google Books preview returns zero results. | ✘ No | |
"Sending negative energy against the Church? A completely useless action" | ? Unclear. | Blog. | ✘ No | |
"The national socialist movement implodes" | ~ Article topic is the NSM, but Joy of Satan was inextricably involved with the depicted debacle. | ~ Partial | ||
"The National Socialist Movement" | Not mentioned. | ✘ No | ||
Corpus Secuntra Order of Nine Angles | ? | Not even close. We shouldn’t even link this material. And the person who wrote it isn’t mentioned on the O9A article, at least not under this pseudonym, so… who are they? | ? Don’t care to check. O9A is a neo-Nazi organization regardless of what it says about some obscure also-Nazi-affiliated organization. | ✘ No |
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{ source assess table}}. |
TL;DR: A grand heap of nothing. And as mentioned above, I don’t know what’s happening with the “Further reading” section. This is all very, very strange. postleft ✍ (Arugula) ☞ say hello! 07:01, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
I’m a bit conflicted here because I actually think this article (in principle) could be useful and cover an interesting story, but the sourcing doesn’t seem to be there. I don’t yet have access to the Wikipedia Library thingy, if anyone else does, maybe one could check and see if any newspapers covered the story at the time? One or two contemporary newspaper articles should be enough to tip the scales (and, worst case scenario, it can be merged into the NSM article and the story can be enumerated there). postleft on mobile! 14:09, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
I hope the primary editor of this page returns here. I’d like to ask them some questions and possibly work with them to improve the article. postleft ✍ (Arugula) ☞ say hello! 15:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
BlueGhast ( talk) 02:36, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Woodroar: and @ Postleft: Due to the many issues that this article had, as it was probably the most nakedly-biased and horribly-written article I've ever seen on Wikipedia, I proceeded with the necessary cleanup, for the following reasons:
Cheers. GenoV84 ( talk) 10:50, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
References
The party's problems began last June, when Citizens Against Hate discovered that NSM's Tulsa post office box was shared by The Joy of Satan Ministry, in which the wife of NSM chairman emeritus Clifford Herrington is High Priestess. [...] Within NSM ranks, meanwhile, a bitter debate was sparked over the propriety of Herrington's Joy of Satan connections. [...] Schoep moved ahead with damage-control operations by nudging chairman emeritus Herrington from his position under the cover of "attending to personal matters." But it was too late to stop NSM Minister of Radio and Information Michael Blevins, aka Vonbluvens, from following White out of the party, citing disgust with Herrington's Joy of Satan ties. "Satanism," declared Blevins in his resignation letter, "affects the whole prime directive guiding the [NSM] – SURVIVAL OF THE WHITE RACE." [...] NSM was now a Noticeably Smaller Movement, one trailed in extremist circles by a strong whiff of Satanism and related charges of sexual impropriety associated with Joy of Satan initiation rites and curiously strong teen recruitment efforts.
The NSM has had its share of movement scandal. In July 2006, it was rocked by revelations that co-founder and chairman emeritus Cliff Herrington's wife was the "High Priestess" of the Joy of Satan Ministry, and that her satanic church shared an address with the Tulsa, Okla., NSM chapter. The exposure of Herrington's wife's Satanist connections caused quite a stir, particularly among those NSM members who adhered to a racist (and heretical) variant of Christianity, Christian Identity. Before the dust settled, both Herringtons were forced out of NSM. Bill White, the neo-Nazi group's energetic spokesman, also quit, taking several NSM officials with him to create a new group, the American National Socialist Workers Party.
I haven't checked the Ph.D. thesis written by Jesper Aagaard Petersen but if it is a reliable source we could still fix it using template:Cite thesis, although maybe it would be more appropriate to move it to the Bibliography section or Further reading section. However, I would object to removing Massimo Introvigne's CESNUR survey on Satanism. Since Introvigne is considered to be one of the foremost scholars in the academic study of New religious movements (especially concerning the field of "Satanism studies" along with Jesper Aagaard Petersen and James R. Lewis), and he's also the founder of CESNUR itself, the source is still relevant and useful.
Anyway, feel free to improve it yourself or with the help of other editors, and many thanks both to you @ Woodroar and @ postleft for keeping an eye on this article. GenoV84 ( talk) 18:16, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
If I may state my input here, the article was currently in the process of of some fixing and reworked after initially going through a consensus with other editors. I was also waiting for the conclusion of the RfC. In reply to the above statements: 1: Article is not completely of my work, this is true, but has gone through revisions before in accordance to other editors suggestions. There have also been about 4 other editors involved in this article. 2: To say that I completely copy pasted from the theistic Satanism article is ludicrous, during its initial developement the project did initially begin with the given sources but as we can see the work has been expanded to a higher extent. 3: Editors personal/biased opinion, it must be noted the editor had a dispute with my edits in the theistic satanism page, it was brought up to admin notice who had warned GenoV84 that he was in violation of AGF (Assuming good faith). 4: Same as 3 5: Same as 3 6: Same as 3 7: I brought this before, but that information belongs in the NSFM article and have told you before if you would like to expand on that it should be brought there. The NSFM article has still been missing info till this date. BlueGhast ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 06:32, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
@
GenoV84 and
BlueGhast: I think it may help if you could make specific suggestions based on policy, with diffs if necessary. GenoV84, you mentioned above that the CESNUR source is still relevant and useful
. At
WP:RSP, CESNUR is noted as an apologia site for new religious movements, and thus is inherently unreliable in its core area due to conflicts of interest. There is also consensus that its content is unreliable on its own merits.
I read through the discussions and Introvigne is specifically called out as unreliable when writing at CESNUR, though reliable through Brill because of their editorial process. You're certainly welcome to bring this up at RSN but the current consensus is that it's not a reliable source.
Woodroar (
talk)
13:59, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
seems less-than-neutral for the topic based on the titleand that
all of these [sources] should go. It's clearly an amateur source, written pseudonymously in first person. Looking through that "Interviews and public relations" link, I don't see any mentions from reputable sources. The closest is Vice Media, and we list them as "no consensus" at WP:RSP. The same is true when looking through Google News, which strongly suggests they lack the reputation for fact-checking and accuracy that WP:V requires. Woodroar ( talk) 01:04, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
Very well, ISU and Cesnur sources removed. BlueGhast ( talk) 23:34, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Scarabaes: please join the discussion rather than simply reverting. As far as I can tell, these were good edits, supported by policy and multiple editors. Woodroar ( talk) 22:37, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Personally, I think that I’ve done more than enough and don't consider myself useful anymore. Since this article, in its current version, lends itself to misunderstandings, as well as being highly divisive, I personally feel that I should take a step back and let the other users proceed without me. I consider this to be the best decision for all parties involved in this discussion. GenoV84 ( talk) 11:28, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Aside from necessary edits according to policy, any edits regarding NPOV and/or credibility will be discussed here. According to Wikipedia's policy on NPOV disputes, editors should tag section with POV and then explain in the talk page.
I know some of the articles state her name is Andrea Herrington, but official government documents indicate at some point later this name was changed/corrected accordingly to her alias. Which is now her actual name. This may also indicate something going on with the alleged connection between Andrea and Clifford Herrington. This will be taken up with W:RS/PS for further evaluation of these government documents. These documents are also necessary to identify the group as a non-profit church btw. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueGhast ( talk • contribs) 19:32, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
The term "neo-nazism" being used in the sentence would imply that JoS adopts its ideologies from a post ww2 nazi movement when it's a fact that it derives its fundementals directly from the original nazi ideology. Imo, it's unnecessary and misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueGhast ( talk • contribs) 01:04, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
...or what else do you call this? Their relation between Satan, with no second element on the other side of between: their relation between Satan and whom (or what)? Nuttyskin ( talk) 20:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)