This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Why not adding it at the beginning of the article, like elsewhere? -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 15:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
CrnaGora, there is 1 searh result for "Prince Vladimir Dukljanski" and nearly 1,800 for "Jovan Vladimir". -- PaxEquilibrium 12:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
VVV, how about adding a bit on his title. He was only remembered and considered mythically "King" by the people, as oral tales and national tradition kept the tellings and legends about him (see the Presbyter's Chronicle). Only his descendant in 1077 will truly become King. -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 22:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
V, should we include the MOC in the ..venerated in.. bit? Your thoughts? -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 21:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I didn't pay attention to the statistics in Mrkojevići. I followed the link Paštrovići, and it turns out that Androvići belong to them. My source says that the cross is under the care of the Andrović family from Velji Mikulići, and at another place it says that Velji Mikulići belong to Mrkojevići, what led me to conclude that the Andrović family belonged to Mrkojevići. To avoid any incorrect designation, I reworded that sentence. VVVladimir ( talk) 20:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 15:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
1. A. Throughout the article Kosara and Samuil are used, as spelled in other wiki articles; Cossara and Samuel are used only in citations from Stephenson, as spelled in that source. B. Better now?
2. Fixed.
3. Regrettably, nothing in historical sources. There is something in hagiographies, but it is a panegyrical legend rather than historical facts.
VVVladimir, why don't you something about money Vladimir minted, or in precise his Golden Coin? As the very oldest domestic coin from our lands, I think it's pretty relevant. -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 22:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
“ | ..Because while over Serbia reigned Vladimir, by daughter of Samuil father in law, a man just and peaceful and full of virtue, the occasions in Dyrrachion were peaceful. And when John executed Gabriel, and when this one (Vladimir) was double crossed and believed the oaths given to him by John across David, the Archbishop from Bulgaria, and gave himself to him and after a short time got executed, and then the occasions in there disturbed so greatly and mettled, considering that John day from day, often using his military commanders or himself personally, tried to seize back the City... | ” |
VVVladimir ( talk) 10:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I added Albania TF as Jovan Vladimir is a venerated saint by the Albanian Orthodox Church where his remains lay. -- Sulmues Let's talk 23:46, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
First of all, there was no "Jovan Vladimir", there was only Vladimir, ruler of Doclea, and Serbian Orthodox Church use Jovan in front of his name to prove retroactively that he was a Serb. The other thing is, Doclea was not a Serbian state, it was Montenegrin state, Doclea being older name of Montenegro. There are of course, many Serbian historians who want to falsify the fact that Montenegrin state is older than Serbian (which is shown, among else, by the fast that Serbian king from 13th century, Stefan Nemanjic was nicknamed The Firstcrowned, although Doclea had dozen of kings a century before him). You should, at least, put in the text that according to some historians (mainly Serbian orthodox, or others who use their 'sources')it was Serbian state, and according to others, it was first medieval Montenegrin state. It would appear more serious. Using many sites put on by Serbian Orthodox Church and their so called historians is not the right way to present historical truth to people who don't know anything about this period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.155.48.138 ( talk) 08:34, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Why is he carrying some guy's head in his arms? JIP | Talk 19:14, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Duklja was a medieval geopolitical entity (at times an independent state) which was inarguably in close association with the neighboring Serb principality of Rascia (Raska) throughout its history, but to present it as a definite Serb unit is rather bold given the subject matter in its whole is disputed. There is a much balanced discussion of this in the article on Duklja itself, while this article on Jovan Vladimir frankly fails to attain the same level of objectivity and is as such currently unworthy its featured status. There is in my opinion no reason to involve any ethnic/national labels whatsoever, the biographical purpose of the article would be just as fulfilled. Though I'm not certain I'd call it POV, but to include a completely irrelevant citation claiming that "Byzantines often called Duklja Serbia" in a biographical article is pretty awkward. 90.230.54.125 ( talk) 18:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
So the question is what revisions to make? I would suggest to either methodically remove all suggestions of "Serbness" or elaborate on the contention of the subject as to increase the objectivity of the article; though I can't really see how an expanded discussion on the 'ethnic affiliation' of Duklja would have a suitable place in this purely biographical piece. I'd personally say to limit all such excursuses to the article on Duklja itself and keep this article free from issues of that character. 90.230.54.125 ( talk) 19:35, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
A full historical review/study was never done for this saint. What we know today is mostly based on a fiction narrative from the 17th century called "Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja" which most of historians largely discounted the work based on inaccuracies and fiction, nevertheless it contains some semi-mythological material on the early history of the Western South Slavs. Among Albanians and Vlachs (Morlachs) this saint was always venerated as Shen Ion (Gjon) Vlash-i. Name "Vlash" is the Albanian version of name Blaise, and Saint Blaise which had the same fate as Saint Ion Vlash (was beheaded too) was also the patron saint of nearby city of Ragusa (Dubrovnik). Maybe a coincidence?!. Most likely the real name of this saint was Ion Blaise. The slavic version of Blaise includes word Mir (which in Slavic language mean PEACE and in Albanian and on most of Indo-Europian languages mean GOOD - similar to "Merry") was changed to Vladimir to a later date. Unfortunately there is still little effort to bring up the real identity of the only Albanian Orthodox Saint of the middle ages and maybe the founder of the Albanian Orthodoxy Church from the time of Great Scisma. Since the time that Albanian Lord Topia, a Serb vassal, build Saint Ion Vlash Monastery yet the Autocephalous Albanian Orthodox Church mostly controlled by Greeks, has shown no interest at all to unearth this mystery. Until then tens of churches and monasteries which bear his name Shen Ion Vlash around Albania will wait for the truth to reveal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.81.58 ( talk) 19:34, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Why not adding it at the beginning of the article, like elsewhere? -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 15:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
CrnaGora, there is 1 searh result for "Prince Vladimir Dukljanski" and nearly 1,800 for "Jovan Vladimir". -- PaxEquilibrium 12:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
VVV, how about adding a bit on his title. He was only remembered and considered mythically "King" by the people, as oral tales and national tradition kept the tellings and legends about him (see the Presbyter's Chronicle). Only his descendant in 1077 will truly become King. -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 22:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
V, should we include the MOC in the ..venerated in.. bit? Your thoughts? -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 21:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I didn't pay attention to the statistics in Mrkojevići. I followed the link Paštrovići, and it turns out that Androvići belong to them. My source says that the cross is under the care of the Andrović family from Velji Mikulići, and at another place it says that Velji Mikulići belong to Mrkojevići, what led me to conclude that the Andrović family belonged to Mrkojevići. To avoid any incorrect designation, I reworded that sentence. VVVladimir ( talk) 20:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Redtigerxyz ( talk) 15:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
1. A. Throughout the article Kosara and Samuil are used, as spelled in other wiki articles; Cossara and Samuel are used only in citations from Stephenson, as spelled in that source. B. Better now?
2. Fixed.
3. Regrettably, nothing in historical sources. There is something in hagiographies, but it is a panegyrical legend rather than historical facts.
VVVladimir, why don't you something about money Vladimir minted, or in precise his Golden Coin? As the very oldest domestic coin from our lands, I think it's pretty relevant. -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 22:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
“ | ..Because while over Serbia reigned Vladimir, by daughter of Samuil father in law, a man just and peaceful and full of virtue, the occasions in Dyrrachion were peaceful. And when John executed Gabriel, and when this one (Vladimir) was double crossed and believed the oaths given to him by John across David, the Archbishop from Bulgaria, and gave himself to him and after a short time got executed, and then the occasions in there disturbed so greatly and mettled, considering that John day from day, often using his military commanders or himself personally, tried to seize back the City... | ” |
VVVladimir ( talk) 10:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I added Albania TF as Jovan Vladimir is a venerated saint by the Albanian Orthodox Church where his remains lay. -- Sulmues Let's talk 23:46, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
First of all, there was no "Jovan Vladimir", there was only Vladimir, ruler of Doclea, and Serbian Orthodox Church use Jovan in front of his name to prove retroactively that he was a Serb. The other thing is, Doclea was not a Serbian state, it was Montenegrin state, Doclea being older name of Montenegro. There are of course, many Serbian historians who want to falsify the fact that Montenegrin state is older than Serbian (which is shown, among else, by the fast that Serbian king from 13th century, Stefan Nemanjic was nicknamed The Firstcrowned, although Doclea had dozen of kings a century before him). You should, at least, put in the text that according to some historians (mainly Serbian orthodox, or others who use their 'sources')it was Serbian state, and according to others, it was first medieval Montenegrin state. It would appear more serious. Using many sites put on by Serbian Orthodox Church and their so called historians is not the right way to present historical truth to people who don't know anything about this period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.155.48.138 ( talk) 08:34, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Why is he carrying some guy's head in his arms? JIP | Talk 19:14, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Duklja was a medieval geopolitical entity (at times an independent state) which was inarguably in close association with the neighboring Serb principality of Rascia (Raska) throughout its history, but to present it as a definite Serb unit is rather bold given the subject matter in its whole is disputed. There is a much balanced discussion of this in the article on Duklja itself, while this article on Jovan Vladimir frankly fails to attain the same level of objectivity and is as such currently unworthy its featured status. There is in my opinion no reason to involve any ethnic/national labels whatsoever, the biographical purpose of the article would be just as fulfilled. Though I'm not certain I'd call it POV, but to include a completely irrelevant citation claiming that "Byzantines often called Duklja Serbia" in a biographical article is pretty awkward. 90.230.54.125 ( talk) 18:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
So the question is what revisions to make? I would suggest to either methodically remove all suggestions of "Serbness" or elaborate on the contention of the subject as to increase the objectivity of the article; though I can't really see how an expanded discussion on the 'ethnic affiliation' of Duklja would have a suitable place in this purely biographical piece. I'd personally say to limit all such excursuses to the article on Duklja itself and keep this article free from issues of that character. 90.230.54.125 ( talk) 19:35, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
A full historical review/study was never done for this saint. What we know today is mostly based on a fiction narrative from the 17th century called "Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja" which most of historians largely discounted the work based on inaccuracies and fiction, nevertheless it contains some semi-mythological material on the early history of the Western South Slavs. Among Albanians and Vlachs (Morlachs) this saint was always venerated as Shen Ion (Gjon) Vlash-i. Name "Vlash" is the Albanian version of name Blaise, and Saint Blaise which had the same fate as Saint Ion Vlash (was beheaded too) was also the patron saint of nearby city of Ragusa (Dubrovnik). Maybe a coincidence?!. Most likely the real name of this saint was Ion Blaise. The slavic version of Blaise includes word Mir (which in Slavic language mean PEACE and in Albanian and on most of Indo-Europian languages mean GOOD - similar to "Merry") was changed to Vladimir to a later date. Unfortunately there is still little effort to bring up the real identity of the only Albanian Orthodox Saint of the middle ages and maybe the founder of the Albanian Orthodoxy Church from the time of Great Scisma. Since the time that Albanian Lord Topia, a Serb vassal, build Saint Ion Vlash Monastery yet the Autocephalous Albanian Orthodox Church mostly controlled by Greeks, has shown no interest at all to unearth this mystery. Until then tens of churches and monasteries which bear his name Shen Ion Vlash around Albania will wait for the truth to reveal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.81.58 ( talk) 19:34, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 10 external links on Jovan Vladimir. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:41, 28 April 2017 (UTC)