This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jousting article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
not jousting—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.203.148 ( talk • contribs)
I tried to edit the dates on the article, but they were switched back. jousting was popoular and around in the 13th century, and was either preformed before the melee battle or during the melee battle proper. eventually this would evolve into duel jousting .
There are alot of inaccuracies in this article as others have pointed out
Take the lead from the tournament article it is much more accurate
And does not conform to any standard of accuracy. It will need to be completely revised to more reflect historical reality. For starters, what it's ostensibly about is TILTING, not "jousting." What are the sources for three passes and the if-they're-both-dismounted-they-set-to-with-swords? What the heck is a rondel? A rondel dagger? See Barber and Barker for starters, also Muhlberger, and Anglo's various works. It is articles like this that cause college professors (i.e., me) to mock and denigrate Wikipedia and give lousy grades to students who cite it.
Ken Mondschein 04:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
The claim that " Several international organisations, such as the Society for Creative Anachronism " is in error, as The SCA does not have Horse Mounted combatants using lances. 203.221.203.91 ( talk) 04:53, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Some ideas, which I may act on if i get a free moment, but if not, someone else can...
That's just from a minute or two looking in between homework... Lyellin 06:04, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
I propose Jousting and Tournament (medieval) be merged. WAS 4.250 18:03, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
It looks like this article was significantly expanded since it was listed on Requests for expansion in August of 2004. Although it isn't clear whether all the above possibilities for expansion were followed up on, I think that it is unlikely that anyone will notice it so far down on the requests page (actually, on a secondary page). I am removing the listing. Please re-list it under the current date, if you feel it is appropriate. -- DavidConrad 01:50, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
In the jousting article, I noticed that there was no mention of tortoise or turtle jousting. Though many do not know about it, tortoise and turtle jousting is one of the main sports in Tonga. Tortoise jousting is just like regular jousting except for the fact that the Tongan warriors rode tortoises instead of horses, since horses were not avalible in Tonga.
I am an expert in tortoise jousting, I got a doctorate in it and have won many a tortoise jousting tournaments on the back of my faithful Sally, in the wondeful country of Tonga. I teach a tortoise jousting class in the University of the Tonga and am the head of the tortoise deparment for all of Tonga.
Tortoise jousting was, and still remains a major jousting event and the fact that this site has nothing about it makes me violently ill. Tortoise jousting is the pride of Tonga and all of the Tongan people and it is a blatant form of discrimination against the great people of Tonga to not mention their beloved sportoise. If I had majored in law instead of tortoise jousting I would sue you and make sure you never neglect the awesome power of tortoise jousting again.
-Walter
This article is image-heavy and probably needs to have images removed. Here is a possible improvement from Wikimedia Commons: Durova 05:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
What was the sport called when two teams of knights met at a tournament and fought in a melee, or is that only a Victorian fantasy? -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
The top of the page is getting a little crowded. How many links warrant a disambiguation?
The whole section regarding the English type of joust is rubbish. Most (if not all) jousts had the most common intention of breaking a lance. Just further evidence that this aticle needs a complete re-write.
I suggest these be trimmed a bit. Usually 2 to 3 are enough. Extra info rather than all the groups out there. Peter Rehse 09:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Just a general question I suppose. Why does this article on jousting fall under the Martial Arts project!?!
That makes no sense!
Anyone, feel free to explain the connection to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 5thperiodmun ( talk • contribs)
Why is jousting NOT a martial art? Just because it is equestrian and not Asian - does this disqualify it?! It is a very pure "combat sport" just like many so- called martial arts and probably closer to ist's martial roots than something like judo! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.131.199.240 ( talk • contribs)
Jousting is part of what is now being referenced as "Western Martial Arts" as opposed to "Eastern Martial Arts" which is what most people think of when simply using the words "Martial Arts." I haven't read into the martial arts guidelines, but at the very least there should be a distinction between the two within that. Sethholmes ( talk) 13:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I've added a tag to a new article I am working on about Medieval horses. In the process, I noted that the information on horses here contains inaccuracies (like the rest of the article). I hope to come back sometime and improve things. If anyone else is keen to work on revising this article as per suggestions listed throughout this talk page, drop me a note on my talk page, and we can perhaps work together on it. Gwinva 20:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source to support the use of riding something other than a horse to train for the joust? I'm also removing that bit about being hit by the Quintain hitting a rider. As this is only possible if the horse decides to stop a fraction of a second after you've hit it.-- Talroth 18:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Talroth: answer to your first question. Yes, I have here a reference for lance-games on boats (on the Thames, 12th C), on wooden horse pulled by esquires (14th C), jousting on barrels and foot-jousting. All Juliet Barker (1986) p 151. She classes these as 'Quintain' games. Check out Hastilude: a new page I've created and will build up, as a first step in sorting all this tournament stuff. A few headings, waiting for expansion by anyone willing. As to this page, I've quickly removed some of those dreadful corporate links. There are too many pictures, also. As for the text, a complete rewrite would be good, but perhaps we (anyone) can work on it section by section. Gwinva 19:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Armor is normaly spelled without the "U" and nobody described what chain mail even is, and why are all of those words in ( ), they don't have to. Duuuh
-- Joordaann 12:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted your changes. But thanks for your contributions. See Wikipedia:Tutorial for general editing help. Gwinva 23:28, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
what is this?? and i am looking at jousting for my history project —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.8.6 ( talk) 19:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
"Joust is usually pronounced as 'jowst' in the United States. But the word derives from Latin and Old French and is more properly pronounced as 'joost.'"
I removed this for 4 reasons:
/dʒuːst/ or /ˈdʒʌst/ seems to have been the medieval pronunciation, presumably continued into the Tudor period. This may be worth noting as a point of historical interest even if it isn't how the word is pronounced today. -- dab (𒁳) 12:06, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
It is my understanding that the horses used were trained to run in a lateral gait, that is right front, right rear, then left front left rear motion. This is generally called an amble. I do not know if this is accurate, but would be very interested in having the article include consideration of the gait of the horses and reasons therefore. 216.210.66.38 ( talk) 21:12, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
In history and in the modern day, was it standard to pass on the opponent's left side? And was there a rule that only the right (outside) hand could be used to hold the lance? Fotoguzzi ( talk) 07:51, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
It looks to me that in the early period, when the aim was to unseat the opponent, they passed with the right side to the opponent. (as is depicted in 14th and 15th century paintings). Later the aim became to "break the lance" against the opponents shield, and the left side with the shield was exposed to the opponent. (later paintings showing "left hand traffic" and it's also how it's done in modern re-enactments.) 2003:C6:3CD:7255:C93E:EFC0:71C4:A3F6 ( talk) 03:42, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
"joust" vs. "tilt" vs. "tilt barrier" vs. "list".
It turns out that "tilt" was used as a synonym of "joust" from about 1510. It is also known that "tilt" meant "cloth covering" in the 15th century, and that a cloth barrier was sometimes used for jousts in the late 14th to early 15th century, and that this barrier became wooden palisades in the 15th. I think it is a theory based on this that "tilt" originally referred to the barrier. I need to find out if this sense of the word is actually attested, but so far it seems not to be.
The problem is that the modern sense of "tilt" (to lean, etc.) develops only in the 16th century, so tilt in the meaning of "joust" cannot be derived from that sense; if anything, it's the other way round, but it is a difficult case, because there is also tyltan "to waddle", etc. in Old English, completely unrelated to teld > telt > tilt "tent; cloth cover".
The way it looks to me, there was tilt "cloth cover", which was used of the cloth barrier in the 15th century, and "to go to the tilt" meant to go jousting. The barrier was then made of wood, and people forgot that "tilt" had referred to the barrier, as "tilting" now just meant "jousting", and so "a tilt" was backformed to mean "a joust". This process happened during the 15th century and was complete by 1510. The barrier formerly known as "tilt" was now the "tilt barrier".
As for "list", the claim that this meant the list of names of combattants is entirely spurious. This sense of "list" only arises after the end of the era of jousting. Scott uses "list" in the sense of "fence delimiting the tournament field" (not the "tilt barrier"), but I do not know if this is an invention of Scott's, or if he is basing this on Middle English use. -- dab (𒁳) 12:21, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
What about the field, the grounds, the arena, the soil, dimensions, composition of covering, enclosures, and space for spectators, that is all the physical details of an arena or a sports field? That is all the staging elements, as the surrounding space of the action. This article is only on the action and the history, nothing on the theatrical or sporting environment. -- ROO BOOKAROO ( talk) 01:18, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Here is a question please be so kind to include an answer to if you happen to find it in a reliable source:
Iconography always shows the horses running on the right side of the barrier (the barrier is always to their left)
This means that, since it is held in the right hand, the lance has to cross above the horse's neck to meet the other knight's armor or shield.
The contrary (horses running on the left side of the barrier, i.e. barrier to their right) seems so much simpler (always assuming the lance is held in the right hand, of course).
So why was the more awkward convention used? Any idea?
Thanks
Contact Basemetal here 22:36, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Lists (jousting) redirects here. But what is/are Lists in the context of jousting? -- Kajdron ( talk) 09:05, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Jousting. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:20, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
That date range is not "over a month" in my book, so something seems to be wrong. 46.223.43.217 ( talk) 05:57, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Randy Kryn: will give you a day or so to add a source to this piece of content you added, after which it will be removed if it is still unsourced. Feel free to copy the relevant citation over from that linked page if so desired, thanks. Spiritual Transcendence ( talk) 06:35, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jousting article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
not jousting—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.203.148 ( talk • contribs)
I tried to edit the dates on the article, but they were switched back. jousting was popoular and around in the 13th century, and was either preformed before the melee battle or during the melee battle proper. eventually this would evolve into duel jousting .
There are alot of inaccuracies in this article as others have pointed out
Take the lead from the tournament article it is much more accurate
And does not conform to any standard of accuracy. It will need to be completely revised to more reflect historical reality. For starters, what it's ostensibly about is TILTING, not "jousting." What are the sources for three passes and the if-they're-both-dismounted-they-set-to-with-swords? What the heck is a rondel? A rondel dagger? See Barber and Barker for starters, also Muhlberger, and Anglo's various works. It is articles like this that cause college professors (i.e., me) to mock and denigrate Wikipedia and give lousy grades to students who cite it.
Ken Mondschein 04:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
The claim that " Several international organisations, such as the Society for Creative Anachronism " is in error, as The SCA does not have Horse Mounted combatants using lances. 203.221.203.91 ( talk) 04:53, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Some ideas, which I may act on if i get a free moment, but if not, someone else can...
That's just from a minute or two looking in between homework... Lyellin 06:04, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
I propose Jousting and Tournament (medieval) be merged. WAS 4.250 18:03, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
It looks like this article was significantly expanded since it was listed on Requests for expansion in August of 2004. Although it isn't clear whether all the above possibilities for expansion were followed up on, I think that it is unlikely that anyone will notice it so far down on the requests page (actually, on a secondary page). I am removing the listing. Please re-list it under the current date, if you feel it is appropriate. -- DavidConrad 01:50, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
In the jousting article, I noticed that there was no mention of tortoise or turtle jousting. Though many do not know about it, tortoise and turtle jousting is one of the main sports in Tonga. Tortoise jousting is just like regular jousting except for the fact that the Tongan warriors rode tortoises instead of horses, since horses were not avalible in Tonga.
I am an expert in tortoise jousting, I got a doctorate in it and have won many a tortoise jousting tournaments on the back of my faithful Sally, in the wondeful country of Tonga. I teach a tortoise jousting class in the University of the Tonga and am the head of the tortoise deparment for all of Tonga.
Tortoise jousting was, and still remains a major jousting event and the fact that this site has nothing about it makes me violently ill. Tortoise jousting is the pride of Tonga and all of the Tongan people and it is a blatant form of discrimination against the great people of Tonga to not mention their beloved sportoise. If I had majored in law instead of tortoise jousting I would sue you and make sure you never neglect the awesome power of tortoise jousting again.
-Walter
This article is image-heavy and probably needs to have images removed. Here is a possible improvement from Wikimedia Commons: Durova 05:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
What was the sport called when two teams of knights met at a tournament and fought in a melee, or is that only a Victorian fantasy? -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
The top of the page is getting a little crowded. How many links warrant a disambiguation?
The whole section regarding the English type of joust is rubbish. Most (if not all) jousts had the most common intention of breaking a lance. Just further evidence that this aticle needs a complete re-write.
I suggest these be trimmed a bit. Usually 2 to 3 are enough. Extra info rather than all the groups out there. Peter Rehse 09:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Just a general question I suppose. Why does this article on jousting fall under the Martial Arts project!?!
That makes no sense!
Anyone, feel free to explain the connection to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 5thperiodmun ( talk • contribs)
Why is jousting NOT a martial art? Just because it is equestrian and not Asian - does this disqualify it?! It is a very pure "combat sport" just like many so- called martial arts and probably closer to ist's martial roots than something like judo! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.131.199.240 ( talk • contribs)
Jousting is part of what is now being referenced as "Western Martial Arts" as opposed to "Eastern Martial Arts" which is what most people think of when simply using the words "Martial Arts." I haven't read into the martial arts guidelines, but at the very least there should be a distinction between the two within that. Sethholmes ( talk) 13:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I've added a tag to a new article I am working on about Medieval horses. In the process, I noted that the information on horses here contains inaccuracies (like the rest of the article). I hope to come back sometime and improve things. If anyone else is keen to work on revising this article as per suggestions listed throughout this talk page, drop me a note on my talk page, and we can perhaps work together on it. Gwinva 20:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source to support the use of riding something other than a horse to train for the joust? I'm also removing that bit about being hit by the Quintain hitting a rider. As this is only possible if the horse decides to stop a fraction of a second after you've hit it.-- Talroth 18:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Talroth: answer to your first question. Yes, I have here a reference for lance-games on boats (on the Thames, 12th C), on wooden horse pulled by esquires (14th C), jousting on barrels and foot-jousting. All Juliet Barker (1986) p 151. She classes these as 'Quintain' games. Check out Hastilude: a new page I've created and will build up, as a first step in sorting all this tournament stuff. A few headings, waiting for expansion by anyone willing. As to this page, I've quickly removed some of those dreadful corporate links. There are too many pictures, also. As for the text, a complete rewrite would be good, but perhaps we (anyone) can work on it section by section. Gwinva 19:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Armor is normaly spelled without the "U" and nobody described what chain mail even is, and why are all of those words in ( ), they don't have to. Duuuh
-- Joordaann 12:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted your changes. But thanks for your contributions. See Wikipedia:Tutorial for general editing help. Gwinva 23:28, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
what is this?? and i am looking at jousting for my history project —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.8.6 ( talk) 19:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
"Joust is usually pronounced as 'jowst' in the United States. But the word derives from Latin and Old French and is more properly pronounced as 'joost.'"
I removed this for 4 reasons:
/dʒuːst/ or /ˈdʒʌst/ seems to have been the medieval pronunciation, presumably continued into the Tudor period. This may be worth noting as a point of historical interest even if it isn't how the word is pronounced today. -- dab (𒁳) 12:06, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
It is my understanding that the horses used were trained to run in a lateral gait, that is right front, right rear, then left front left rear motion. This is generally called an amble. I do not know if this is accurate, but would be very interested in having the article include consideration of the gait of the horses and reasons therefore. 216.210.66.38 ( talk) 21:12, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
In history and in the modern day, was it standard to pass on the opponent's left side? And was there a rule that only the right (outside) hand could be used to hold the lance? Fotoguzzi ( talk) 07:51, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
It looks to me that in the early period, when the aim was to unseat the opponent, they passed with the right side to the opponent. (as is depicted in 14th and 15th century paintings). Later the aim became to "break the lance" against the opponents shield, and the left side with the shield was exposed to the opponent. (later paintings showing "left hand traffic" and it's also how it's done in modern re-enactments.) 2003:C6:3CD:7255:C93E:EFC0:71C4:A3F6 ( talk) 03:42, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
"joust" vs. "tilt" vs. "tilt barrier" vs. "list".
It turns out that "tilt" was used as a synonym of "joust" from about 1510. It is also known that "tilt" meant "cloth covering" in the 15th century, and that a cloth barrier was sometimes used for jousts in the late 14th to early 15th century, and that this barrier became wooden palisades in the 15th. I think it is a theory based on this that "tilt" originally referred to the barrier. I need to find out if this sense of the word is actually attested, but so far it seems not to be.
The problem is that the modern sense of "tilt" (to lean, etc.) develops only in the 16th century, so tilt in the meaning of "joust" cannot be derived from that sense; if anything, it's the other way round, but it is a difficult case, because there is also tyltan "to waddle", etc. in Old English, completely unrelated to teld > telt > tilt "tent; cloth cover".
The way it looks to me, there was tilt "cloth cover", which was used of the cloth barrier in the 15th century, and "to go to the tilt" meant to go jousting. The barrier was then made of wood, and people forgot that "tilt" had referred to the barrier, as "tilting" now just meant "jousting", and so "a tilt" was backformed to mean "a joust". This process happened during the 15th century and was complete by 1510. The barrier formerly known as "tilt" was now the "tilt barrier".
As for "list", the claim that this meant the list of names of combattants is entirely spurious. This sense of "list" only arises after the end of the era of jousting. Scott uses "list" in the sense of "fence delimiting the tournament field" (not the "tilt barrier"), but I do not know if this is an invention of Scott's, or if he is basing this on Middle English use. -- dab (𒁳) 12:21, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
What about the field, the grounds, the arena, the soil, dimensions, composition of covering, enclosures, and space for spectators, that is all the physical details of an arena or a sports field? That is all the staging elements, as the surrounding space of the action. This article is only on the action and the history, nothing on the theatrical or sporting environment. -- ROO BOOKAROO ( talk) 01:18, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Here is a question please be so kind to include an answer to if you happen to find it in a reliable source:
Iconography always shows the horses running on the right side of the barrier (the barrier is always to their left)
This means that, since it is held in the right hand, the lance has to cross above the horse's neck to meet the other knight's armor or shield.
The contrary (horses running on the left side of the barrier, i.e. barrier to their right) seems so much simpler (always assuming the lance is held in the right hand, of course).
So why was the more awkward convention used? Any idea?
Thanks
Contact Basemetal here 22:36, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Lists (jousting) redirects here. But what is/are Lists in the context of jousting? -- Kajdron ( talk) 09:05, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Jousting. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:20, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
That date range is not "over a month" in my book, so something seems to be wrong. 46.223.43.217 ( talk) 05:57, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Randy Kryn: will give you a day or so to add a source to this piece of content you added, after which it will be removed if it is still unsourced. Feel free to copy the relevant citation over from that linked page if so desired, thanks. Spiritual Transcendence ( talk) 06:35, 2 May 2023 (UTC)