![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
I have just restored sections on Tito's article that some IP user deleted. Such vandalism is a chronic problem with this entry. It deserves semi-protection under Wikipedia guidelines which state: "Semi-protection prevents edits from anonymous users (IP addresses), as well as edits from accounts that are not autoconfirmed. Administrators may apply indefinite semi-protection to pages that are: Subject to heavy and persistent vandalism." The Tito entry is persistently vandalized. Aslo some Users is used article to describe there nacionlism and not references facts. Snake bgd 10:48, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Semi-protection doesn't solve neutrality problem but I am dumbfounded by behaviour of an admin who restored shamefully titoist propaganda! This article is tagged and I want contribute to neutrality! I agree with users Sir Floyd, ShadowRanger, Andrea Fox2, Thewanderer, AP1929, Jeppiz and others who reported here a lot of sources about Broz crimes: I will report these sources to article in my next edits.-- ANTE RAKELA ( talk) 10:07, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Request semi-production at WP:RPP if anybody wants but to be honest, there isn't much real vandalism (a bunch of people who call every actual content dispute vandalism isn't vandalism) and full protection would be needed to really get it under control. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 10:46, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I don't get the inference between the paragraph I removed here. While I get that increased German resources fighting him would mean more chances to be captured or killed, I don't get what that (unsourced) random paragraph adds. If the particular battles are important, I think it's better to put them in context chronologically than try to do a summary of the situation in the middle of a chronology. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 11:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Here, I removed this source as I do not think a pre-publisher manuscript is an reliable source in accordance with policy. I'd rather not go with just his personal views and estimates until I'm sure we are given this the appropriate weight. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 11:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Otto Skorzeny was sent into Yugoslavia with the orders "Capture Marshall Tito," but failed when a general insisted that his forces, rather than Skoreny's, should attack the Partisan hideout. Given Skorzeny's position and his sucesses in previous and subsequent exploits,it is highly likely he would have succeded. Shouldn't this be mentioned? Just an idea - RR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.178.187.217 ( talk) 23:03, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
User:ANTE RAKELA's recent edits are disturbing at best. The account apparently belives he shall first get me blocked on some nonsense charge [1] and then use enWiki to publish his "feelings" on Josip Broz Tito. Please find actual scholarly sources dealing with Josip Broz Tito personally. This is not an article on Yugoslav history. These edits show a profound lack of knowledge of Yugoslav history and a deep-set POV.
User:ANTE RAKELA, please understand that your own thoughts and feelings about this person are not something the general public is likely to be interested in. Please refrain from section blanking and let me once again reccomend you discuss your edits prior to introducing them, they seem to be rather "politically charged" and are thus likely to be opposed. Regards -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 10:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
You are total wrong and in contradiction! First of all, you are the principal edit warrior during at least two years here but in other related articles too! Your inventions are hystrerical and absurd minds of a titoist nostalgic as you are!
Now I restore correct previous edits by various editors and if you persist in your vandalizing and bullying, some admins will decision-making-- ANTE RAKELA ( talk) 15:55, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Consensus needed on this article. Sir Floyd ( talk) 04:45, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi Director. I see DWC LR sorted things out, that's good. Why don't you get Admin to lock this article (in it's current shape). You'll always get edited wars here. This will just go on for ever and for ever is a long time. That's my advice. Well I'm off, it's quite late here in Aussie Land. Sir Floyd ( talk) 15:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Per MOS:BIO guidelines I have changed the lead sentence with regards to the subject's name. It now reads:
The undisputed fact is that the subject of the article was born Josip Broz. It is also not disputed that "Tito" was not part of his legal name at birth but rather a pseudonym that he adopted at some point in his life. Without dispute again is that he is best known by this pseudonym, himself acknowledging it to the point that that's almost exclusively the way he signed his name.
MOS:BIO, in the section dealing with Pseudonyms, stage names and common names states: "For people who are best known by a pseudonym, the legal name should usually appear first in the article, followed closely by the pseudonym." In this case, that would mean that "Josip Broz" would appear first, closely followed by "Tito". MOS:BIO also states "Care must be taken to avoid implying that a person who does not generally use all their forenames or who uses a familiar form has actually changed their name." Adopting the usage of a nickname does not mean that the name was legally changed.
Examples of right and wrong application of the guidelines can be found all over the encyclopedia but I'll use a few WP:FA articles as examples of how the above MOS guidelines have been applied because those are the articles that have undergone the most scrupulous examinations.
MOS guidelines would also be met if Tito preceded the actual legal name such as:
I don't think it's encylopedically or factually correct to state his name as "Josip Broz Tito" without any indication to the reader that there is a distinction between the legal name and the pseudonym. The article does contain a section on Tito as the nickname so the reader will see that once they get to that part. But WP:LEAD states that the lead paragraph "should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article" and "summarize the most important points", his name and pseudonym being fairly important points. Big Bird ( talk • contribs) 13:13, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
This section seems to presents biased information concerning the German minority in Banat; based on information provided by the "Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands" group (see Ethnic Germans in the Banat, amongst other pages in dvhh.org ). It is crucial that this article comes to some sort of reconciliation with this site. if needed, a seperate article can be made Pjbeierle ( talk) 18:31, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I also find the sections on the German minority in Banat to be heavily biased and in fact supportive of genocide. Tito and the partisans created concentration and liquidation camps for ethnic cleansing of the the population, including women and childen. The "scholarly publications" that you cite are biased; I fail to see how it is possible that the women and children of the concentration camps for ethnic Germans constituted a "fifth column."
The German minority was deported in a very orderly manner? Were you there? Please we are writing an encyclopedia, don't judge other's good faith just to push your pov. - Theirrulez ( talk) 03:57, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
The German minority was not deported in an orderly manner, and there are numerous first person and scholarly accounts to prove this. Since you are only impressed with someone with a degree, please read the sources that ARE provided. The first person ones, however, are much more compelling, as are the numerous death certificates of Danubeschwaben which are marked as the individuals - women and children - dying in the concentration camps set up. Your bias is significant and your defense of Tito bordering on outright worship, so I doubt sincerely if there will be any change in your opinion. There is a saying about teaching a pig to sing.... Again, this is an encylopedia and not your personal page of sainthood for Tito. PR ( talk) 17:16, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Herr Direktor, the section which you fanatically removed was thoroughly and completely inclusive of sources which are highly credible but which run contrary to your point of view. I realize that some sort of vested interest must in fact be your impetus for continued reversions; however, your unceasing cries for sources have been amply met and were so in the revisions that you imperiously deleted. Simply because they conflict with your personal POV does not warrant the extreme hostility of your response.
With regard to your comment as to whether these "evacuations" can be linked to Tito, the commentary which "your" article quoted prior to my edits directly links him, by direct quote from Tito! not only for the action to be taken but the need for secrecy in doing so.
I haven't the time that you have to endlessly devote to guarding the reputation of this individual. Your zealousness and personal "onwership" of this article approach a level of fanatacism that bespeaks deep and nearly religious prostration. I have stated the correct information, provided ample sources, neutralized partisanship, and included a clear edit style. The fact that you reject any edits that conflict with your POV is indicative of other factors at play. Since your excessive zeal outweighs all known fact, it is rather like shouting at the oil in the Gulf to end its despoilment; the pollution continues, regardless. PR ( talk) 16:54, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
I've heard that the name Tito means "Tajna Internacionalna Teroristička Organizacija" (Secret International Terorist Organization). This would be a good addition to the article if someone can locate sources for the explanation. -- Eleassar my talk 09:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm referring to this sentence:
"A number of Italian authors and scholars such as Raoul Pupo, Gianni Oliva, and Arrigo Petacco consider Tito's regime responsible for the Foibe killings."
"Tito's regime" is obviously not NPOV and encyclopedic (equally as much as "Clinton's regime" or "Hitler's regime"). "Tito's regime" is the "Yugoslav government" or "Yugoslavia" in NPOV wording. As per previous consensus on this issue, "Tito" ≠ "Yugoslavia", and this article is about Tito. If these author refer to "Tito's regime" instead of Tito personally, their comments are to be removed. Such tricks and word games were attempted in the past.
Either way "Tito's regime" is POV and goes. The only question is whether the whole sentence should go OR, if the sources refer to Tito personally, the term "Tito's regime" should be replaced with simply "Tito" or "Josip Broz Tito". -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 11:14, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, but your own personal perception of "POV" is not an argument. You misrepresented sources and removed sourced material, you added unsourced claims. Open a proper discussion on proposed edits so that consensus may be reached. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
16:27, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Calling someone hysteric is an insult. Please apologize. Or at least use a more proper language. I removed sourced material: where? I strongly ask you to tell me where, as it is a very offensive statement and it isn't true. You have removed three sources: one from a Princeton teacher, one from the new york times, one from an historian. I ask you to tell me why. Your personal perception of Pov isn't an argument either: reinserting that all germans were nazis is surely pov. I removed that pov, you reinserted it. Why? AndreaFox2 ( talk) 16:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
"Apparently": you have to demonstrate it. Your personal feelings over it are simply your personal feelings. The same goes with your personal opinions ("highly unprofessional"). "As is expected on controversial articles, please discuss proposed changes before making them": the same goes with you, as i see from the history of the article you have deleted a lot from the "criticism" section and you have rarely discussed it. Moreover, my edits aren't controversial as they are sourced and as it is surely POV saying only italian authors wrote over the Foibe and that Germans were all nazi (statements that were inserted by you: why do you insert them?).
AndreaFox2 ( talk) 17:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Easily? Wonderful! Let's try. Wich is the first word of page 108 of Ballinger's History in exile?-- 151.21.250.85 ( talk) 08:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
"Tito's regime" is perfectly encyclopedic and factual, much like "Mussolini's regime", "Castro's regime", "Salazar's regime", "Obama's administration" or "De Gaulle's presidency". It was certainly a distinct regime, and was certainly linked to one significant person. Jean-Jacques Georges ( talk) 13:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
User:Jean-Jacques Georges, please stop edit-warring over the undiscussed insertion of blatantly misrepresented sources (as elaborated upon above). I am touched by your personal attack above, and by the fact that you have followed me here and decided to base your position on the fact that you dislike me/think I'm a communist. I applaud your objectivity and professionalism.
The IP who's edits were removed is our constant guest,
User:PIO/
Luigi 28, who incessantly trolls on this project. He also likes to follow me around and oppose me haphazardly.
In short, the edits inserted by Fox are a slap in the face to Wiki policy. Sources were misrepresented, text supported by them altered, fake sources were added, and laughably biased wording was introduced. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 18:04, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
IMHO, it is useless to argue endlessly with Direktor, or even to discuss with him at all. Sources should be provided if there are some. That's it. And as for the "encyclopedic" nature of the word "regime", his arguments are absurd. Jean-Jacques Georges ( talk) 12:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
I agree Theirrulez ( talk) 14:34, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
I will refrain from commenting on the most intriguing coalition that has formed around this article in recent days, except to say that it's a splendid example of disparate people coming together for a common purpose. To matters in hand. JJG, to address you personally, since you have rejected all use of Cohen in the DM article on the grounds, amongst other things, that he is only a dentist, may I assume that you will be on a mission, as a sign of your good faith here and of your commitment as an encyclopedist, to eradicate any mention of the good Mr Meares from this article? Further, can we hope that you will be on a mission to hunt down and exclude anything from Mr Petacco from this article, since his published work uses not a single primary source and is written in the style of a $3 airport novella? Will you take him out of the article tout de suite? Just a question, caused by this edit here [8] to reinsert Mr Meares, so that we can assess the lay of the land before we begin. Thanks, AlasdairGreen27 ( talk) 18:28, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
There's no need to push this!!! - Theirrulez ( talk) 02:24, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
I think: neutrality of this article is disputable. Stronger must be condamned Tito's responsability for crimes against civil population during and after War II. See article Lojze Grozde too. -- Stebunik ( talk) 05:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm merely trying to verify sources that were not properly cited. I will edit the article only if noone responds after a while. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 19:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I rolled back a recent edit regarding treatment of ethnic germans. It seems that that is already pretty well documented, and the edits were not very clearly expressed. If anyone objects to my rollback, please feel free to revert me, but please also explain here what the point of those edits are (given that we have already some specific references to Tito's orders in this area. -- Nuujinn ( talk) 18:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
The father of Josip Broz Tito in this article is stated to be Franjo Broz a Croat. In the book "Bread From Underground" 1988 Bonifacio Bolognani states that it is likely the father of Tito Josip Broz was Giuseppe Broz of Ombra, Vallarsa in Trentino (then Austria-Hungary; now Italy). I checked the birth records in Vallarsa and found a Francesco Giuseppe Broz born 26 March 1860. According to Bolognani, this Broz and other Trentini went to the Austro-Hungarian region of Croatia in about 1890 for construction of tunnels. It is well known that many other Trentini went to North and South America to work in mines. If true, the fact that Tito's father was Italian and probably spoke Croatian poorly and his mother was Slovenian and probably spoke Croatian less well than a native Croatian could account for the assertion I've seen that Tito spoke Croatian poorly. Do you think this is something that could help people understand this man better? If so, I could strengthen the documentation. I'm new to this so please excuse me if I have somehow violated normal protocols. Eddittorre ( talk) 00:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)Eddittorre
Section speaks not about Tito, but about Germans. Especially Criticism section is also under question. Here is not article about German minority, but about Tito and his responsibility to Germans and their deportation in concentration’s places, later prosecution from homeland. Here is not place about responsibility of ethnic Germans Donauschwaben. Children or old persons were surely not responsible for Hitler’s ideology and his politics.
While this person's mother was of Slovene origin, his father and his immediate family in general were ethnic Croats. He grew up in Croatia and spoke Serbo-Croatian as his primary language. Sources seemingly do not place much weight on his mother's ancestry: while some do he was of mixed ancestry, as far as ethnicity is concerned an overwhelming majority of sources describe him as an "(ethnic) Croat". I've searched at length for sources that may describe him as "multi-ethnic" or as an "ethnic Croatian-Slovene", the few I found were completely outnumbered by those that stated he was a Croat.
Now, I'm not some Croat nationalist or whatever, but the sources should be properly represented here in the article:
...etc. etc. I could literally go on like this almost in perpetuity. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 12:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
|supp=
(
help)). 16 June 1989.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
I have just restored sections on Tito's article that some IP user deleted. Such vandalism is a chronic problem with this entry. It deserves semi-protection under Wikipedia guidelines which state: "Semi-protection prevents edits from anonymous users (IP addresses), as well as edits from accounts that are not autoconfirmed. Administrators may apply indefinite semi-protection to pages that are: Subject to heavy and persistent vandalism." The Tito entry is persistently vandalized. Aslo some Users is used article to describe there nacionlism and not references facts. Snake bgd 10:48, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Semi-protection doesn't solve neutrality problem but I am dumbfounded by behaviour of an admin who restored shamefully titoist propaganda! This article is tagged and I want contribute to neutrality! I agree with users Sir Floyd, ShadowRanger, Andrea Fox2, Thewanderer, AP1929, Jeppiz and others who reported here a lot of sources about Broz crimes: I will report these sources to article in my next edits.-- ANTE RAKELA ( talk) 10:07, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Request semi-production at WP:RPP if anybody wants but to be honest, there isn't much real vandalism (a bunch of people who call every actual content dispute vandalism isn't vandalism) and full protection would be needed to really get it under control. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 10:46, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I don't get the inference between the paragraph I removed here. While I get that increased German resources fighting him would mean more chances to be captured or killed, I don't get what that (unsourced) random paragraph adds. If the particular battles are important, I think it's better to put them in context chronologically than try to do a summary of the situation in the middle of a chronology. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 11:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Here, I removed this source as I do not think a pre-publisher manuscript is an reliable source in accordance with policy. I'd rather not go with just his personal views and estimates until I'm sure we are given this the appropriate weight. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 11:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Otto Skorzeny was sent into Yugoslavia with the orders "Capture Marshall Tito," but failed when a general insisted that his forces, rather than Skoreny's, should attack the Partisan hideout. Given Skorzeny's position and his sucesses in previous and subsequent exploits,it is highly likely he would have succeded. Shouldn't this be mentioned? Just an idea - RR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.178.187.217 ( talk) 23:03, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
User:ANTE RAKELA's recent edits are disturbing at best. The account apparently belives he shall first get me blocked on some nonsense charge [1] and then use enWiki to publish his "feelings" on Josip Broz Tito. Please find actual scholarly sources dealing with Josip Broz Tito personally. This is not an article on Yugoslav history. These edits show a profound lack of knowledge of Yugoslav history and a deep-set POV.
User:ANTE RAKELA, please understand that your own thoughts and feelings about this person are not something the general public is likely to be interested in. Please refrain from section blanking and let me once again reccomend you discuss your edits prior to introducing them, they seem to be rather "politically charged" and are thus likely to be opposed. Regards -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 10:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
You are total wrong and in contradiction! First of all, you are the principal edit warrior during at least two years here but in other related articles too! Your inventions are hystrerical and absurd minds of a titoist nostalgic as you are!
Now I restore correct previous edits by various editors and if you persist in your vandalizing and bullying, some admins will decision-making-- ANTE RAKELA ( talk) 15:55, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Consensus needed on this article. Sir Floyd ( talk) 04:45, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Hi Director. I see DWC LR sorted things out, that's good. Why don't you get Admin to lock this article (in it's current shape). You'll always get edited wars here. This will just go on for ever and for ever is a long time. That's my advice. Well I'm off, it's quite late here in Aussie Land. Sir Floyd ( talk) 15:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Per MOS:BIO guidelines I have changed the lead sentence with regards to the subject's name. It now reads:
The undisputed fact is that the subject of the article was born Josip Broz. It is also not disputed that "Tito" was not part of his legal name at birth but rather a pseudonym that he adopted at some point in his life. Without dispute again is that he is best known by this pseudonym, himself acknowledging it to the point that that's almost exclusively the way he signed his name.
MOS:BIO, in the section dealing with Pseudonyms, stage names and common names states: "For people who are best known by a pseudonym, the legal name should usually appear first in the article, followed closely by the pseudonym." In this case, that would mean that "Josip Broz" would appear first, closely followed by "Tito". MOS:BIO also states "Care must be taken to avoid implying that a person who does not generally use all their forenames or who uses a familiar form has actually changed their name." Adopting the usage of a nickname does not mean that the name was legally changed.
Examples of right and wrong application of the guidelines can be found all over the encyclopedia but I'll use a few WP:FA articles as examples of how the above MOS guidelines have been applied because those are the articles that have undergone the most scrupulous examinations.
MOS guidelines would also be met if Tito preceded the actual legal name such as:
I don't think it's encylopedically or factually correct to state his name as "Josip Broz Tito" without any indication to the reader that there is a distinction between the legal name and the pseudonym. The article does contain a section on Tito as the nickname so the reader will see that once they get to that part. But WP:LEAD states that the lead paragraph "should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article" and "summarize the most important points", his name and pseudonym being fairly important points. Big Bird ( talk • contribs) 13:13, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
This section seems to presents biased information concerning the German minority in Banat; based on information provided by the "Donauschwaben Villages Helping Hands" group (see Ethnic Germans in the Banat, amongst other pages in dvhh.org ). It is crucial that this article comes to some sort of reconciliation with this site. if needed, a seperate article can be made Pjbeierle ( talk) 18:31, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I also find the sections on the German minority in Banat to be heavily biased and in fact supportive of genocide. Tito and the partisans created concentration and liquidation camps for ethnic cleansing of the the population, including women and childen. The "scholarly publications" that you cite are biased; I fail to see how it is possible that the women and children of the concentration camps for ethnic Germans constituted a "fifth column."
The German minority was deported in a very orderly manner? Were you there? Please we are writing an encyclopedia, don't judge other's good faith just to push your pov. - Theirrulez ( talk) 03:57, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
The German minority was not deported in an orderly manner, and there are numerous first person and scholarly accounts to prove this. Since you are only impressed with someone with a degree, please read the sources that ARE provided. The first person ones, however, are much more compelling, as are the numerous death certificates of Danubeschwaben which are marked as the individuals - women and children - dying in the concentration camps set up. Your bias is significant and your defense of Tito bordering on outright worship, so I doubt sincerely if there will be any change in your opinion. There is a saying about teaching a pig to sing.... Again, this is an encylopedia and not your personal page of sainthood for Tito. PR ( talk) 17:16, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Herr Direktor, the section which you fanatically removed was thoroughly and completely inclusive of sources which are highly credible but which run contrary to your point of view. I realize that some sort of vested interest must in fact be your impetus for continued reversions; however, your unceasing cries for sources have been amply met and were so in the revisions that you imperiously deleted. Simply because they conflict with your personal POV does not warrant the extreme hostility of your response.
With regard to your comment as to whether these "evacuations" can be linked to Tito, the commentary which "your" article quoted prior to my edits directly links him, by direct quote from Tito! not only for the action to be taken but the need for secrecy in doing so.
I haven't the time that you have to endlessly devote to guarding the reputation of this individual. Your zealousness and personal "onwership" of this article approach a level of fanatacism that bespeaks deep and nearly religious prostration. I have stated the correct information, provided ample sources, neutralized partisanship, and included a clear edit style. The fact that you reject any edits that conflict with your POV is indicative of other factors at play. Since your excessive zeal outweighs all known fact, it is rather like shouting at the oil in the Gulf to end its despoilment; the pollution continues, regardless. PR ( talk) 16:54, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
I've heard that the name Tito means "Tajna Internacionalna Teroristička Organizacija" (Secret International Terorist Organization). This would be a good addition to the article if someone can locate sources for the explanation. -- Eleassar my talk 09:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm referring to this sentence:
"A number of Italian authors and scholars such as Raoul Pupo, Gianni Oliva, and Arrigo Petacco consider Tito's regime responsible for the Foibe killings."
"Tito's regime" is obviously not NPOV and encyclopedic (equally as much as "Clinton's regime" or "Hitler's regime"). "Tito's regime" is the "Yugoslav government" or "Yugoslavia" in NPOV wording. As per previous consensus on this issue, "Tito" ≠ "Yugoslavia", and this article is about Tito. If these author refer to "Tito's regime" instead of Tito personally, their comments are to be removed. Such tricks and word games were attempted in the past.
Either way "Tito's regime" is POV and goes. The only question is whether the whole sentence should go OR, if the sources refer to Tito personally, the term "Tito's regime" should be replaced with simply "Tito" or "Josip Broz Tito". -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 11:14, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, but your own personal perception of "POV" is not an argument. You misrepresented sources and removed sourced material, you added unsourced claims. Open a proper discussion on proposed edits so that consensus may be reached. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
16:27, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Calling someone hysteric is an insult. Please apologize. Or at least use a more proper language. I removed sourced material: where? I strongly ask you to tell me where, as it is a very offensive statement and it isn't true. You have removed three sources: one from a Princeton teacher, one from the new york times, one from an historian. I ask you to tell me why. Your personal perception of Pov isn't an argument either: reinserting that all germans were nazis is surely pov. I removed that pov, you reinserted it. Why? AndreaFox2 ( talk) 16:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
"Apparently": you have to demonstrate it. Your personal feelings over it are simply your personal feelings. The same goes with your personal opinions ("highly unprofessional"). "As is expected on controversial articles, please discuss proposed changes before making them": the same goes with you, as i see from the history of the article you have deleted a lot from the "criticism" section and you have rarely discussed it. Moreover, my edits aren't controversial as they are sourced and as it is surely POV saying only italian authors wrote over the Foibe and that Germans were all nazi (statements that were inserted by you: why do you insert them?).
AndreaFox2 ( talk) 17:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Easily? Wonderful! Let's try. Wich is the first word of page 108 of Ballinger's History in exile?-- 151.21.250.85 ( talk) 08:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
"Tito's regime" is perfectly encyclopedic and factual, much like "Mussolini's regime", "Castro's regime", "Salazar's regime", "Obama's administration" or "De Gaulle's presidency". It was certainly a distinct regime, and was certainly linked to one significant person. Jean-Jacques Georges ( talk) 13:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
User:Jean-Jacques Georges, please stop edit-warring over the undiscussed insertion of blatantly misrepresented sources (as elaborated upon above). I am touched by your personal attack above, and by the fact that you have followed me here and decided to base your position on the fact that you dislike me/think I'm a communist. I applaud your objectivity and professionalism.
The IP who's edits were removed is our constant guest,
User:PIO/
Luigi 28, who incessantly trolls on this project. He also likes to follow me around and oppose me haphazardly.
In short, the edits inserted by Fox are a slap in the face to Wiki policy. Sources were misrepresented, text supported by them altered, fake sources were added, and laughably biased wording was introduced. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 18:04, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
IMHO, it is useless to argue endlessly with Direktor, or even to discuss with him at all. Sources should be provided if there are some. That's it. And as for the "encyclopedic" nature of the word "regime", his arguments are absurd. Jean-Jacques Georges ( talk) 12:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
I agree Theirrulez ( talk) 14:34, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
I will refrain from commenting on the most intriguing coalition that has formed around this article in recent days, except to say that it's a splendid example of disparate people coming together for a common purpose. To matters in hand. JJG, to address you personally, since you have rejected all use of Cohen in the DM article on the grounds, amongst other things, that he is only a dentist, may I assume that you will be on a mission, as a sign of your good faith here and of your commitment as an encyclopedist, to eradicate any mention of the good Mr Meares from this article? Further, can we hope that you will be on a mission to hunt down and exclude anything from Mr Petacco from this article, since his published work uses not a single primary source and is written in the style of a $3 airport novella? Will you take him out of the article tout de suite? Just a question, caused by this edit here [8] to reinsert Mr Meares, so that we can assess the lay of the land before we begin. Thanks, AlasdairGreen27 ( talk) 18:28, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
There's no need to push this!!! - Theirrulez ( talk) 02:24, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
I think: neutrality of this article is disputable. Stronger must be condamned Tito's responsability for crimes against civil population during and after War II. See article Lojze Grozde too. -- Stebunik ( talk) 05:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm merely trying to verify sources that were not properly cited. I will edit the article only if noone responds after a while. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 19:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I rolled back a recent edit regarding treatment of ethnic germans. It seems that that is already pretty well documented, and the edits were not very clearly expressed. If anyone objects to my rollback, please feel free to revert me, but please also explain here what the point of those edits are (given that we have already some specific references to Tito's orders in this area. -- Nuujinn ( talk) 18:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
The father of Josip Broz Tito in this article is stated to be Franjo Broz a Croat. In the book "Bread From Underground" 1988 Bonifacio Bolognani states that it is likely the father of Tito Josip Broz was Giuseppe Broz of Ombra, Vallarsa in Trentino (then Austria-Hungary; now Italy). I checked the birth records in Vallarsa and found a Francesco Giuseppe Broz born 26 March 1860. According to Bolognani, this Broz and other Trentini went to the Austro-Hungarian region of Croatia in about 1890 for construction of tunnels. It is well known that many other Trentini went to North and South America to work in mines. If true, the fact that Tito's father was Italian and probably spoke Croatian poorly and his mother was Slovenian and probably spoke Croatian less well than a native Croatian could account for the assertion I've seen that Tito spoke Croatian poorly. Do you think this is something that could help people understand this man better? If so, I could strengthen the documentation. I'm new to this so please excuse me if I have somehow violated normal protocols. Eddittorre ( talk) 00:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)Eddittorre
Section speaks not about Tito, but about Germans. Especially Criticism section is also under question. Here is not article about German minority, but about Tito and his responsibility to Germans and their deportation in concentration’s places, later prosecution from homeland. Here is not place about responsibility of ethnic Germans Donauschwaben. Children or old persons were surely not responsible for Hitler’s ideology and his politics.
While this person's mother was of Slovene origin, his father and his immediate family in general were ethnic Croats. He grew up in Croatia and spoke Serbo-Croatian as his primary language. Sources seemingly do not place much weight on his mother's ancestry: while some do he was of mixed ancestry, as far as ethnicity is concerned an overwhelming majority of sources describe him as an "(ethnic) Croat". I've searched at length for sources that may describe him as "multi-ethnic" or as an "ethnic Croatian-Slovene", the few I found were completely outnumbered by those that stated he was a Croat.
Now, I'm not some Croat nationalist or whatever, but the sources should be properly represented here in the article:
...etc. etc. I could literally go on like this almost in perpetuity. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 12:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
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help)). 16 June 1989.