This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have just removed a sentence which while weasel worded seemed to suggest Selmayr was innocent despite his conviction, and a link to Axis History Forum. For a start, Axis History Fourms is not a RS and it seems incredible anyone could think it was. Even if it was, the citation doesn't link to anything at the Institut für Zeitgeschichte and the poor quality photograph available could easily be a forgery. I have left the Nuremberg trials transcript as it is quite interesting but none of the information in the paragraph is actually referred to in it. I think we must assume the egregious Martin Selmayr, who is known to be something of a wiki warrior has again been trying to downplay his family's past, apparently on the assumption people hate him because they think he's a Nazi (which is doubly pointless as it isn't true so far as I know and in any case isn't the reason people hate him). The Irish Question ( talk) 19:56, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Ultimately, he was convicted, he was swnetenced. There is no evidence or information from an RS presented that the conviction was unsound. I also think it's pushing things a bit to say Yugoslavia in 1946 was a place 'where the rule of law wasn't respected' and this western/eastern split is overegged (there were Soviet judges at Nuremberg)! If such a claim is to be made, it needs to be properly sourced. It isn't. The Irish Question ( talk) 21:29, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
In Tito's Yugoslavia, which was at the time a one-party dictatorship and "considered in its earliest years a model of communist [which here means Stalinist] orthodoxy" as our article describes the country, you could be convicted and receive a draconian sentence for receiving a letter from someone in a western country, for being a social democrat, or for no reason at all. The same was true in the many countries occupied by the Soviet Union in Central and Eastern Europe during the second half of the 1940s, where you could be sent to the Gulag for decades for such "crimes." Hence, we do not treat "convictions" by totalitarian regimes in an uncritical way because that would not be neutral or encyclopedic. There doesn't seem to be any solid sources dealing with his time in Yugoslavia other than his own memoirs. The claims about him in the Brexit press all originate in The Daily Express and The Daily Mail, neither of which are regarded by the Wikipedia community as reliable sources because they are both far-right, anti-immigrant, racist, sensationalist tabloid newspapers with a long history of spreading fake news. Since virtually every single other claim those newspapers made about him have been proven to be pure sensationalist fiction/fake news (such as him being directly involved with Hitler and so on), we need to treat any other claims they make with extreme caution. The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or Yugoslavia itself, no longer exists, and no country on the planet currently recognises any such conviction of him, least of all his own country. The fact that he was freed after about a year (instead of 15) after Yugoslavia abandoned its alliance with Stalin and sought a new relationship with the west is also quite telling; apparently the Yugoslav communists saw little reason to hold onto him and to carry out the sentence they had given him about a year earlier when the country's "courts" were still quite ardently stalinist. He was immediately employed by the CIA upon his return to the west. --
Tataral (
talk) 10:07, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have just removed a sentence which while weasel worded seemed to suggest Selmayr was innocent despite his conviction, and a link to Axis History Forum. For a start, Axis History Fourms is not a RS and it seems incredible anyone could think it was. Even if it was, the citation doesn't link to anything at the Institut für Zeitgeschichte and the poor quality photograph available could easily be a forgery. I have left the Nuremberg trials transcript as it is quite interesting but none of the information in the paragraph is actually referred to in it. I think we must assume the egregious Martin Selmayr, who is known to be something of a wiki warrior has again been trying to downplay his family's past, apparently on the assumption people hate him because they think he's a Nazi (which is doubly pointless as it isn't true so far as I know and in any case isn't the reason people hate him). The Irish Question ( talk) 19:56, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
Ultimately, he was convicted, he was swnetenced. There is no evidence or information from an RS presented that the conviction was unsound. I also think it's pushing things a bit to say Yugoslavia in 1946 was a place 'where the rule of law wasn't respected' and this western/eastern split is overegged (there were Soviet judges at Nuremberg)! If such a claim is to be made, it needs to be properly sourced. It isn't. The Irish Question ( talk) 21:29, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
In Tito's Yugoslavia, which was at the time a one-party dictatorship and "considered in its earliest years a model of communist [which here means Stalinist] orthodoxy" as our article describes the country, you could be convicted and receive a draconian sentence for receiving a letter from someone in a western country, for being a social democrat, or for no reason at all. The same was true in the many countries occupied by the Soviet Union in Central and Eastern Europe during the second half of the 1940s, where you could be sent to the Gulag for decades for such "crimes." Hence, we do not treat "convictions" by totalitarian regimes in an uncritical way because that would not be neutral or encyclopedic. There doesn't seem to be any solid sources dealing with his time in Yugoslavia other than his own memoirs. The claims about him in the Brexit press all originate in The Daily Express and The Daily Mail, neither of which are regarded by the Wikipedia community as reliable sources because they are both far-right, anti-immigrant, racist, sensationalist tabloid newspapers with a long history of spreading fake news. Since virtually every single other claim those newspapers made about him have been proven to be pure sensationalist fiction/fake news (such as him being directly involved with Hitler and so on), we need to treat any other claims they make with extreme caution. The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or Yugoslavia itself, no longer exists, and no country on the planet currently recognises any such conviction of him, least of all his own country. The fact that he was freed after about a year (instead of 15) after Yugoslavia abandoned its alliance with Stalin and sought a new relationship with the west is also quite telling; apparently the Yugoslav communists saw little reason to hold onto him and to carry out the sentence they had given him about a year earlier when the country's "courts" were still quite ardently stalinist. He was immediately employed by the CIA upon his return to the west. --
Tataral (
talk) 10:07, 19 February 2019 (UTC)