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This page was
proposed for deletion by
Gggh (
talk ·
contribs) on 11 January 2011 with the comment: Subject notable for only one event as per WP:BIO1E. It was contested by 12.234.96.66 ( talk · contribs) on 11 January 2011 |
This article was nominated for deletion on 12 January 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
Seems like if Stanislav Petrov has his own page, Josef Schultz should get one, too. Both were famous for a single event but both events were representative of larger issues and carried big implications for their time. He has a statue built in his honor. If I see a statue of someone and want to know about them, I turn to Wikipedia.
Someone changed the page to say "alleged" but there were photos and references linked. I'm not a Wikipedia guru by any means, but it feels like this guy should get a page as he played a significant role in a significant historical event - especially to those who live in Serbia. He is called "the hero of Serbia." The rules linked to in the proposed deletion are ambiguous and enforcement seems completely subjective. I just need help finding the proper attributions and fleshing out the article. Gthing ( talk) 20:35, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Problem is, there doesn't seem to be any reliable evidence of the proposed story. It seems to me unacceptable that Wikipedia host an article stating the alleged actions of JS as a historical fact. Please provide some evidence for the claims stated in this article. (Hint: A post in an internet forum doesn't count.) Some (also rather dubious) sources claim that the story of JS was made up by Soviet propagandists. Until further evidence is provided, I propose this article be deleted or rewritten as to state the possibility of this being a made-up story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.37.105.42 ( talk) 10:14, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I haven't seen the film, but that 'wall' in the photos is quite clearly a hayrick. So either the text is wrong or the photographs do not depict the event described here. pablo 11:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Although the name of the character in the English version of the film was (I assume) Schultz, it looks like the name of the actual person was Josef Schulz (without a 't'). I presume the reason is that the German 'z' is actually pronounced 'tz'-- Boson ( talk) 21:48, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I can see a number of editors have put considerable work into this article, however I oppose the removal of the disputed tag as the article still makes a number of unsubstanciated claims, including that the photos are of the alleged incident (how could they possibly be if Schulz was already dead?) and still has this sentence which clearly contradicts the paragraphs above which claim he died in battle and was not executed at all: "The first round of fire did not hit Schultz as none of his fellow soldiers would aim at him. He was left standing alone when his superiors ordered another round of fire and he was shot and killed."
Given that the wiki community seems to have decided to tolerate an article about an incident that cannot be proven and is likely a 'legend' then our readers need to be able to easily identify that the facts have not been established. IMO this is why wikipedia isn't taken seriously and never will be. What happened to WP:VERIFY or WP:PROVEIT? Anotherclown ( talk) 04:17, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
{{
cn}}
and similar in sentences. Explaining on talk like you did is also good. Regards,
SunCreator (
talk) 04:48, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
{{Disputed}}
at the top of the disputed article. If the talk page discussion is not in a section named "Disputed", use {{
Disputed|talk page section name}}
(for a talk page section named "Disputed information", use {{
Disputed|Disputed information}}
in the article). If there is no talk page, the tag won't refer to it (in which case it's recommended to consider whether the tag should be there, since there is no reason given)." Though reasonable people may disagree as to whether the tag should have been removed, claims that the removal was in any way disingenuous are uncalled-for.
Boson (
talk) 00:42, 23 January 2011 (UTC)I reworked the article based primarily on the Bethke article, since the scholary sources also cited are in the same vein. I also included a Vesti reference, though Vesti has been criticised as a Serbian partisan source according to Vesti's de.wiki entry; the point of inclusion of the Vesti ref is to have a source that the photographies appearing in this article are actually the same photographies Bethke is talking about. Nothing is referenced to the article body of the Vesti article. The Vesti article contains another image of Schulz, which looks PDy but I am not sure. I hesitate to upload it since it remains unclear to me whether this picture undoubtly shows Schulz and where Vesti obtained it (otherwise we could claim fair use even if it is not PD I guess). Skäpperöd ( talk) 10:18, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
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Josef Schulz. Born: 16 February 1909, Dortmund(-Huckarde), Died: 19 July 1941 Adzibegovac (first grave: Topola), Gefreiter, 2. Komp. Inf. Regt. 741. Declared as: "gefallen, Lungenschuß rechts, verblutet" (= KIA, shot in the lung right side, bled to death). - Civil death registration 23 December 1941, Wuppertal-Barmen, No. 2115. See: Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge, German War Graves registration See: Death registration card No. G-A 381/0643 of Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt), now to find at ancestry.com ("Deutschland, im Kampf gefallene Soldaten 1939-1948"). -- 213.172.123.242 ( talk) 07:15, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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This page was
proposed for deletion by
Gggh (
talk ·
contribs) on 11 January 2011 with the comment: Subject notable for only one event as per WP:BIO1E. It was contested by 12.234.96.66 ( talk · contribs) on 11 January 2011 |
This article was nominated for deletion on 12 January 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
Seems like if Stanislav Petrov has his own page, Josef Schultz should get one, too. Both were famous for a single event but both events were representative of larger issues and carried big implications for their time. He has a statue built in his honor. If I see a statue of someone and want to know about them, I turn to Wikipedia.
Someone changed the page to say "alleged" but there were photos and references linked. I'm not a Wikipedia guru by any means, but it feels like this guy should get a page as he played a significant role in a significant historical event - especially to those who live in Serbia. He is called "the hero of Serbia." The rules linked to in the proposed deletion are ambiguous and enforcement seems completely subjective. I just need help finding the proper attributions and fleshing out the article. Gthing ( talk) 20:35, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Problem is, there doesn't seem to be any reliable evidence of the proposed story. It seems to me unacceptable that Wikipedia host an article stating the alleged actions of JS as a historical fact. Please provide some evidence for the claims stated in this article. (Hint: A post in an internet forum doesn't count.) Some (also rather dubious) sources claim that the story of JS was made up by Soviet propagandists. Until further evidence is provided, I propose this article be deleted or rewritten as to state the possibility of this being a made-up story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.37.105.42 ( talk) 10:14, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I haven't seen the film, but that 'wall' in the photos is quite clearly a hayrick. So either the text is wrong or the photographs do not depict the event described here. pablo 11:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Although the name of the character in the English version of the film was (I assume) Schultz, it looks like the name of the actual person was Josef Schulz (without a 't'). I presume the reason is that the German 'z' is actually pronounced 'tz'-- Boson ( talk) 21:48, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I can see a number of editors have put considerable work into this article, however I oppose the removal of the disputed tag as the article still makes a number of unsubstanciated claims, including that the photos are of the alleged incident (how could they possibly be if Schulz was already dead?) and still has this sentence which clearly contradicts the paragraphs above which claim he died in battle and was not executed at all: "The first round of fire did not hit Schultz as none of his fellow soldiers would aim at him. He was left standing alone when his superiors ordered another round of fire and he was shot and killed."
Given that the wiki community seems to have decided to tolerate an article about an incident that cannot be proven and is likely a 'legend' then our readers need to be able to easily identify that the facts have not been established. IMO this is why wikipedia isn't taken seriously and never will be. What happened to WP:VERIFY or WP:PROVEIT? Anotherclown ( talk) 04:17, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
{{
cn}}
and similar in sentences. Explaining on talk like you did is also good. Regards,
SunCreator (
talk) 04:48, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
{{Disputed}}
at the top of the disputed article. If the talk page discussion is not in a section named "Disputed", use {{
Disputed|talk page section name}}
(for a talk page section named "Disputed information", use {{
Disputed|Disputed information}}
in the article). If there is no talk page, the tag won't refer to it (in which case it's recommended to consider whether the tag should be there, since there is no reason given)." Though reasonable people may disagree as to whether the tag should have been removed, claims that the removal was in any way disingenuous are uncalled-for.
Boson (
talk) 00:42, 23 January 2011 (UTC)I reworked the article based primarily on the Bethke article, since the scholary sources also cited are in the same vein. I also included a Vesti reference, though Vesti has been criticised as a Serbian partisan source according to Vesti's de.wiki entry; the point of inclusion of the Vesti ref is to have a source that the photographies appearing in this article are actually the same photographies Bethke is talking about. Nothing is referenced to the article body of the Vesti article. The Vesti article contains another image of Schulz, which looks PDy but I am not sure. I hesitate to upload it since it remains unclear to me whether this picture undoubtly shows Schulz and where Vesti obtained it (otherwise we could claim fair use even if it is not PD I guess). Skäpperöd ( talk) 10:18, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Josef Schulz. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Josef Schulz. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:43, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Josef Schulz. Born: 16 February 1909, Dortmund(-Huckarde), Died: 19 July 1941 Adzibegovac (first grave: Topola), Gefreiter, 2. Komp. Inf. Regt. 741. Declared as: "gefallen, Lungenschuß rechts, verblutet" (= KIA, shot in the lung right side, bled to death). - Civil death registration 23 December 1941, Wuppertal-Barmen, No. 2115. See: Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge, German War Graves registration See: Death registration card No. G-A 381/0643 of Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt), now to find at ancestry.com ("Deutschland, im Kampf gefallene Soldaten 1939-1948"). -- 213.172.123.242 ( talk) 07:15, 21 August 2021 (UTC)