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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Is the rose garden she built in the mansion really worth a mention in the intro. Is the rose garden planted in the white house by JFK mentioned in his intro. not only is it unsourced but it seems POV Magnificent etc.. I can see the need for a section further down (which i personally think should be trimmed as it's longer than the empress of the french section but i'm not going to touch it). any comments on this before i edit would be apprecieated — Preceding unsigned comment added by Awnman ( talk • contribs) 23:03, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
per Wiki naming convention of listing monarch's wives under their birth/maiden names; Beauharnais was the surname of her first husband Mowens35 14:38, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am somewhat against the heading
Josephine Tascher de La Pagerie. Actually, the naming convention is not straightforwardly "maiden name" but "pre-marital name". Of course it is fiddling to say that her marriage to Napoleon was the only one that mattered and thus "pre-marital" was her first husband's name (sic!), but...
I am ready to make a better exception re this person, and allow her the heading
Empress Josephine. (If we are to make exceptions, why not then select the best one of them.)
217.140.193.123 2 July 2005 09:08 (UTC)
This article should be under Josephine (Empress).
Tantris 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Why did you call repeating her file name as Wikifying?
For what it's worth, the uncommented anon removal of the reference to Stéphanie de Beauharnais as Joséphine's daughter appears to be correct. See [1] (in German). -- Jmabel 06:28, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)
Olivier, thanks for the recent additions; could you indicate your sources? -- Jmabel 18:44, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
Question to Mowens35: On what do you base your claim that empress Josephine is ancestress of current house of Monaco and of Egon von F. ???
I have seen much of your imaginary ideas to deluge truthful information here in Wikipedia - apparently motivated by so-called royal-romantics and sycophancy instead of factual correctness.
217.140.193.123 2 July 2005 09:17 (UTC)
Wow, this sort of soppy soap-operatic stuff seriously needs to be sourced or purged, probably the latter:
-- Saforrest 01:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
rather POV, no? surely it was a plantation for a specific economic purpose (sugar, etc) which was cultivated by slaves, which is different than a "slave plantation" Mowens35 16:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
[2]: uncommented removal of claim that she is ancestor of the royal house of Monaco (by an editor who is clearly not a vandal). Was it false? Or what? -
Jmabel |
Talk 00:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
"first cousin once removed of Mahmud II, 27th Sultan of Turkey". Maybe. I have no idea. But presumably, if it's true, you didn't just happen to know it. Please provide a citation for this sort of thing. - Jmabel | Talk 02:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The anonymous "copy edit" recently was far more than that. I've restored a couple of things. Others may want to check.
I'm particularly surprised by the removal of the following: is there a factual problem with it? "The divorce took place on January 10, 1810, and was a grand but solemn ceremony for both lovers. It was the first under the Napoleonic Code." Other than the dubious phrase "for both lovers", this seems to me to be entirely relevant, if true. Is it not true? - Jmabel | Talk 05:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
In this article it is suggested that Josephine only had one affair during her marriage to Napoleon, but in the Napoleon article it is stated that both were known to have had many. Which is it?
Absurdly, Josephine, Marie Louise and Eugenie were included in the list of "Queen Consorts of France" (what in correct grammar ought to be called Queens-Consort, by-the-by...)
All three bore the title of Empress of the French and none was ever Queen of France, consort or otherwise. I have accordingly removed them from the list.
Tantris 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The article makes a passing reference to Josephine's "natural" daughter. Generally this term is used in this way as a euphemism for "illegitimate", but there's no mention of such a child in the article and it seems staggeringly unlikely to me that she would have one. If it refers to Hortense de Beauharnais, then the term is used incorrectly. -- Jfruh ( talk) 00:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I once read in a bio on Josephine that a girl from Martinique came to France and was put under Josephine's protection.Author opines that she could have been the natural daughter of Josephine from an affair she had with a Scots captain while she visited Martinique with her children.Author also speculates that this final pregnancy could have rendered her incapable of having more children due to complications during childbirth.At any rate,a mysterious Scotsman did attend her funeral. jeanne ( talk) 07:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I think this passage has been erased. At least I can’t find it anywhere.
2009-03-10 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
the david painting of the coronation of napoleon does not show him coronating josephine. rather, it depicts him coronating *himself* as the catholic clergy looks on. napoleon did so to show the sovereignty and authority of the french state -- above that of the vatican. but a more simple proof can be offered: josephine is already wearing a crown in the painting. i am changing the caption accordingly.
The coronation painting is of napoleon crowning josephine, not of him crowning himself. The fact that josehine is already wearing a crown does not mean that napoleon is crowning himself. After all, napoleon's mother is in the full painting, yet she wasn't actually at the ceremony. -roxie11 =Great-grandfather=I have read in many bios that her maternal great-grandfather George Browne was Irish; yet in the article he is listed as English.Could he possibly have been Anglo-Irish? jeanne ( talk) 15:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The famous last words of Napoléon I where made up by Charles Tristan de Montholon. He has turned out to be a frequent liar. Napoléon died at about the time of sunset after being unconscious for at least 14 hours. At the time the famous last words was said to have been uttered no-one else could hear any words. They heard a sound coming from his moth but it was more like a music instrument than a human voice. Today it is thought to have been due to gases from an over-pressurised stomach escaping though his throat. Consequentially, there was no intention behind it. Most likely the last thing he said before he died was:
“Give me my chamber-pot.”
It may not have been very polite but that was what he said. His last words must have been uttered I French since all the three or four men who nursed him where French-spoken. They where his favourite personal servant Louis Joseph Marchand, Charles Tristan de Montholon and Henri Gratien Bertrand. The possible forth person was Étienne “Ali” Saint-Dennis who was also a personal servant. Napoléon had a third personal servant named Jean Abram Noverraz. During the last six weeks he could not nurse Napoléon since he was ill himself. He barely recovered enough in time to bid farewell to his dying ruler. By then Napoléon was already unconscious.
2008-05-23 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.151.44 ( talk) 11:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You hurt me! Do you hate me? To me it is your comments which appears fallacious and hateful or at least contemptuous. These are my counter-arguments to your claims:
1. Although my inlays are sometimes aggressive most of them are characterised by ether honest seek after truth or thoughtful debunking.
2. I have not commented all Wikipedia’s articles dealing with Napoléon I or closely associated concepts, just a great deal of them.
3. I often sound very sure about the subject I write on. Yet I have never claimed to be an expert and have even pointed this out several times. I am just an ordinary sceptic with enough knowledge to understand and use the argument of real experts. Please note that I can admit error if I am corrected by experts or other people with good enough arguments.
4. I do not hate the Bonaparte family. I don’t like Napoléon I because I consider him a military dictator. I don’t like his brother Lucien ether because he was a political extremist. For Charles Louis Napoléon I have mixed emotions. Fore some of the Bonapartes I have no particular emotions. Others I feel more or less sympathy with. The Bonaparte I consider most sympathetic was Charles Joseph. My real motives are a reluctant fascination of Napoléon I Bonaparte, curiosity and the entertainment I get from debunking (both reading and writing). Anyway, my emotions for certain persons do not prevent me from telling the truth as far as I know it.
5. I don’t know about any “Oprah's Club”. I have no contact with any such organisation.
6. I am 26 years old and do not seem much older. Some people have even mistaken me for younger than I am!
7. I am not afraid of crowds. Most leikely, I have even smaller personal space than most Swedes.
8. I live in a 33 square metre apartment with linoleum floor, drainage and water supply.
9. The area where I live is nor a frozen desert nor a tundra but a quite densely populated agricultural area. Märsta I situated between the cities of Stockholm and Uppsala. If you read about the climate of Sweden you will find that it is temperate except the mountains in the north-west which has an Alpine climate.
10. In Sweden we don’t trap Mustelids in the wild: we breed them in captivity. However, this is controversial due to the conditions under which the animals are kept.
11. The earliest members of Bernadotte family I know about belonged to the bourgeoisie. If you read about Jean Baptiste Bernadotte you will find that his father Henri was a lawyer. Jean joined the French army in 1780 when Napoleone Buonaparte was just an eleven-year-old child. At the time of Napoléon’s coup d'état Jean was already a high ranking officer if not a general. It was the Swedish nobleman Carl Otto Mörner who came up with the idea of finding a new crown prince in the upper classes of France. If you had been an expert you would had known that making Jean crown prince of Sweden was not Napoléon’s idea.
12. Napoléon I never banished the Bernadottes from France. Jean Baptiste arrived to Sweden in 1810 adding “Charles” to his name. His wife and son arrived the following year. However, Desirée returned to France after a few months and did not move to Sweden permanently until 1823. This was eight years after the final defeat of Napoléon and two year after his death!
You may choose to believe me or not. But if you think I am intentionally lying please remember that you have absolutely no evidence of such asserts. I am no longer so sure about Napoléon’s last words but they might well have been the ones I mentioned. However, I am still convinced that those famous last words where made up by Charles Tristan de Montholon. According to Sten Forshufvud Charles’ eyewitness account of Napoléon’s existence on Saint Helena differs radically form those of the others. Several times Charles made claims that Sten – as a professional physician – recognised as medically impossible. Charles also made other assertions which have been disproved by ether professional or amateur historians. He claimed that he spent Maximilien de Robespierre’s Reign of Terror in Ajaccio where he come to know the Buonaparte family. He said that Napoléon had taught him Mathematics and Lucien Latin. The problem is that Maria Letizia Buonaparte moved to mainland France in 1785 with those of her children which still lived with her. To my knowledge both Napoléon and Lucien was nowhere near Ajaccio during the Reign of Terror. Hopefully you can found out where the two brothers where in 1793-94 by reading Wikipedia’s articles on Napoléon and Lucien Bonaparte. Charles also boasted about the many grievous wounds he had got in battle. Yet there are no other contemporary eyewitness accounts of such wounds. Worse, people which saw him naked have witnessed that he had almost no scars on his body. (I assume that those where ether persons he had sex with or servants waiting up to him when he took a bath.) Sten once wrote that Charles lied compulsorily. This may or may not be true but I am open to the possibility that Charles was a mythomaniac.
That Napoléon was unconscious when he died is a well known fact amongst experts in the field. The idea of him being so for at least 14 hours is based on a quote by Henri Gratien Bertrand translated to English by Sten Forshufvud. At four a clock in the morning on the fifth of May 1821 Henri noted on Napoléon’s condition: “He is no more than a corpse”. Henri has also witnessed that the physician Francesco Antommarchi was with him and Napoléon the night between forth and the fifth. However, Francesco did not pronounce Napoléon dead until roughly ten to six the following evening. As such I drew the conclusion that Henri’s comment on Napoléon’s condition was metaphorically meant and that he was just unconscious. Jean Abram Noverraz was not listed by Henri as one of the people which was with Napoléon the last night before he died. Yet he appears to have been present at the deathbed at the time of his death. Napoléon’s last two days in life is described in chapter 44 of “Assassination at St Helena” by Sten (physician and amateur historian) and Ben Weider (professional historian). The eyewitness account of Henri is outlined on pages 411-412 in Mitchell Press Limited’s 1978 edition. Ben sent me a copy of this book in December 2007 after we had had a lengthy correspondence about the cause of Napoléon’s death. The only message he got from me after that was a letter of thanks for the book in which I wrote what I thought about it: a bit outdated but mostly reliable. If you can’t answer me with arguments based on facts and without ad hominem attacks please leave this discussion or we will never get anywhere.
2009-01-21 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
The article claims that Empress Joséphine was given the title Countess of Navarre after the annulment of her marriage. Can someone verify this claim? Surtsicna ( talk) 15:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Is not the pneumonia diagnosis outdated? I think she died from sub-letal arsenic poisoning but I don’t have any good source to it.
2009-03-10 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.70 ( talk) 13:11, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
No, I am NOT speculating! What someone has died from have to be determined individually in each and every case! In the particular case of Joséphine I wonder what empirical evidence says to present-day physicians. If a physican of today reads the contemporary description of her symptoms and the autopsy report would he or she also draw the conclusion that Joséphine died from pneumonia? Or would such descriptions instead lead to the diagnosis of sub-lethal arsenic poisoning? I have not seen enough evidence for either case.
2011-01-05 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
We don't know why Joséphine could not have any child with Napoléon. But could falling from a balcony really cause the onset of menopause in a 35-year-old woman? I don't understand how.
2009-03-11 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.70 ( talk) 13:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I knew that Joséphine had two children – Eugène and Hortense – with her first husband. I am also aware that the present-day king of Sweden is a seventh generation descendant of her. When I wrote “sterility” I meant her later inability to have any child with her second husband Napoléon. This might well have been due to infection. Lose people are more likely to cache sexually transmitted diseases. There is in fact a sexually transmitted bacterium ( Chlamydia trachomatis) which can make a woman sterile without giving any symptoms. Anyway, this is just a probable explanation since we very likely will never know.
2009-04-03 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.70 ( talk) 17:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
This title is silly. The Bonapartes tribe were not an ancient royal dynasty where normal royal naming rules work. They were just a minor Corsican noble family, and surnames for them should be treated like surnames for anybody else. This article should be at Joséphine Bonaparte, in the same way that we have, say [[Dolley Madison] rather than Dolley Todd. john k ( talk) 14:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
A portrait of Josèphine with a low degree of beautification is here. At the very least she could have looked like this since every single trait can be found among people alive today. The painting is too old to have any copyright. If it originally had any it has long expired by now.
2010-12-29 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.153.12 ( talk) 13:23, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
No mention of the famous rose garden Josephine built at Malmaison? Is there a reason it's not included here? If not may I add a section? For some of us, this is what she's known for - her rose garden. Oh by the way she was married to that guy Napoleon also, which allowed her to get roses from all over the world when no one else could. Dog Walking Girl ( talk) 06:11, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
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During a recent visit to Martinique we learned that slavery was abolished in the French colonies in 1787 during the French Revolution. However Napoleon, supposedly at the urging of Josephine, reinstated slavery until 1848 when it was finally abolished for good. Josephine is therefore despised in Martinique and her statue in the park in Fort-de-France was decapitated, and remains headless to this day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.225.101 ( talk) 18:05, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved DrStrauss talk 13:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Joséphine de Beauharnais →
Empress Joséphine – On this talk page there have been doubts expressed about whether this article is at the right title. I am aware that she is sometimes known by this name, but it does seem odd that her article is not at either her maiden name, or her name from her better known marriage "Josephine Bonaparte". There is no consistent naming convention for royal or imperial consorts, see
WP:NCROY, we should just go for her common and most recognisable name, "Empress Joséphine".
PatGallacher (
talk) 17:32, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
Her two children by Beauharnais became significant to royal lineage.
The use of the acute accent (French: l'accent aigu) in the spelling of "Joséphine" is inconsistent in this article. I've fixed a couple of instances and may be able to correct the rest in the next few days. Matuko ( talk) 06:15, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian ( talk) 18:22, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Empress Joséphine → Joséphine de Beauharnais – The only definitive guideline provided by WP:CONSORTS is that "The titles "Queen" and "Empress" are generally not included in article titles for deceased consorts". The only supporter of the RM which moved the page to this title cited the example of Queen Victoria as permitting the use of "Queen" or "Empress" in an article title, which is an inaccurate comparison as Victoria was a sovereign Queen, Joséphine merely the first consort of Napoleon. Furthermore, their marriage was annulled so she didn't even die Empress. Napoleon's second wife (and widow) has no reference to her status as Empress in the title, so neither should Joséphine. Estar8806 ( talk) 18:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on January 10, 2005, January 10, 2006, January 10, 2007, January 10, 2009, January 10, 2010, and January 10, 2012. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2020 and 11 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MichaelBluth2020.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Is the rose garden she built in the mansion really worth a mention in the intro. Is the rose garden planted in the white house by JFK mentioned in his intro. not only is it unsourced but it seems POV Magnificent etc.. I can see the need for a section further down (which i personally think should be trimmed as it's longer than the empress of the french section but i'm not going to touch it). any comments on this before i edit would be apprecieated — Preceding unsigned comment added by Awnman ( talk • contribs) 23:03, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
per Wiki naming convention of listing monarch's wives under their birth/maiden names; Beauharnais was the surname of her first husband Mowens35 14:38, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am somewhat against the heading
Josephine Tascher de La Pagerie. Actually, the naming convention is not straightforwardly "maiden name" but "pre-marital name". Of course it is fiddling to say that her marriage to Napoleon was the only one that mattered and thus "pre-marital" was her first husband's name (sic!), but...
I am ready to make a better exception re this person, and allow her the heading
Empress Josephine. (If we are to make exceptions, why not then select the best one of them.)
217.140.193.123 2 July 2005 09:08 (UTC)
This article should be under Josephine (Empress).
Tantris 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Why did you call repeating her file name as Wikifying?
For what it's worth, the uncommented anon removal of the reference to Stéphanie de Beauharnais as Joséphine's daughter appears to be correct. See [1] (in German). -- Jmabel 06:28, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)
Olivier, thanks for the recent additions; could you indicate your sources? -- Jmabel 18:44, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
Question to Mowens35: On what do you base your claim that empress Josephine is ancestress of current house of Monaco and of Egon von F. ???
I have seen much of your imaginary ideas to deluge truthful information here in Wikipedia - apparently motivated by so-called royal-romantics and sycophancy instead of factual correctness.
217.140.193.123 2 July 2005 09:17 (UTC)
Wow, this sort of soppy soap-operatic stuff seriously needs to be sourced or purged, probably the latter:
-- Saforrest 01:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
rather POV, no? surely it was a plantation for a specific economic purpose (sugar, etc) which was cultivated by slaves, which is different than a "slave plantation" Mowens35 16:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
[2]: uncommented removal of claim that she is ancestor of the royal house of Monaco (by an editor who is clearly not a vandal). Was it false? Or what? -
Jmabel |
Talk 00:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
"first cousin once removed of Mahmud II, 27th Sultan of Turkey". Maybe. I have no idea. But presumably, if it's true, you didn't just happen to know it. Please provide a citation for this sort of thing. - Jmabel | Talk 02:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The anonymous "copy edit" recently was far more than that. I've restored a couple of things. Others may want to check.
I'm particularly surprised by the removal of the following: is there a factual problem with it? "The divorce took place on January 10, 1810, and was a grand but solemn ceremony for both lovers. It was the first under the Napoleonic Code." Other than the dubious phrase "for both lovers", this seems to me to be entirely relevant, if true. Is it not true? - Jmabel | Talk 05:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
In this article it is suggested that Josephine only had one affair during her marriage to Napoleon, but in the Napoleon article it is stated that both were known to have had many. Which is it?
Absurdly, Josephine, Marie Louise and Eugenie were included in the list of "Queen Consorts of France" (what in correct grammar ought to be called Queens-Consort, by-the-by...)
All three bore the title of Empress of the French and none was ever Queen of France, consort or otherwise. I have accordingly removed them from the list.
Tantris 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The article makes a passing reference to Josephine's "natural" daughter. Generally this term is used in this way as a euphemism for "illegitimate", but there's no mention of such a child in the article and it seems staggeringly unlikely to me that she would have one. If it refers to Hortense de Beauharnais, then the term is used incorrectly. -- Jfruh ( talk) 00:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I once read in a bio on Josephine that a girl from Martinique came to France and was put under Josephine's protection.Author opines that she could have been the natural daughter of Josephine from an affair she had with a Scots captain while she visited Martinique with her children.Author also speculates that this final pregnancy could have rendered her incapable of having more children due to complications during childbirth.At any rate,a mysterious Scotsman did attend her funeral. jeanne ( talk) 07:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I think this passage has been erased. At least I can’t find it anywhere.
2009-03-10 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
the david painting of the coronation of napoleon does not show him coronating josephine. rather, it depicts him coronating *himself* as the catholic clergy looks on. napoleon did so to show the sovereignty and authority of the french state -- above that of the vatican. but a more simple proof can be offered: josephine is already wearing a crown in the painting. i am changing the caption accordingly.
The coronation painting is of napoleon crowning josephine, not of him crowning himself. The fact that josehine is already wearing a crown does not mean that napoleon is crowning himself. After all, napoleon's mother is in the full painting, yet she wasn't actually at the ceremony. -roxie11 =Great-grandfather=I have read in many bios that her maternal great-grandfather George Browne was Irish; yet in the article he is listed as English.Could he possibly have been Anglo-Irish? jeanne ( talk) 15:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The famous last words of Napoléon I where made up by Charles Tristan de Montholon. He has turned out to be a frequent liar. Napoléon died at about the time of sunset after being unconscious for at least 14 hours. At the time the famous last words was said to have been uttered no-one else could hear any words. They heard a sound coming from his moth but it was more like a music instrument than a human voice. Today it is thought to have been due to gases from an over-pressurised stomach escaping though his throat. Consequentially, there was no intention behind it. Most likely the last thing he said before he died was:
“Give me my chamber-pot.”
It may not have been very polite but that was what he said. His last words must have been uttered I French since all the three or four men who nursed him where French-spoken. They where his favourite personal servant Louis Joseph Marchand, Charles Tristan de Montholon and Henri Gratien Bertrand. The possible forth person was Étienne “Ali” Saint-Dennis who was also a personal servant. Napoléon had a third personal servant named Jean Abram Noverraz. During the last six weeks he could not nurse Napoléon since he was ill himself. He barely recovered enough in time to bid farewell to his dying ruler. By then Napoléon was already unconscious.
2008-05-23 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.151.44 ( talk) 11:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You hurt me! Do you hate me? To me it is your comments which appears fallacious and hateful or at least contemptuous. These are my counter-arguments to your claims:
1. Although my inlays are sometimes aggressive most of them are characterised by ether honest seek after truth or thoughtful debunking.
2. I have not commented all Wikipedia’s articles dealing with Napoléon I or closely associated concepts, just a great deal of them.
3. I often sound very sure about the subject I write on. Yet I have never claimed to be an expert and have even pointed this out several times. I am just an ordinary sceptic with enough knowledge to understand and use the argument of real experts. Please note that I can admit error if I am corrected by experts or other people with good enough arguments.
4. I do not hate the Bonaparte family. I don’t like Napoléon I because I consider him a military dictator. I don’t like his brother Lucien ether because he was a political extremist. For Charles Louis Napoléon I have mixed emotions. Fore some of the Bonapartes I have no particular emotions. Others I feel more or less sympathy with. The Bonaparte I consider most sympathetic was Charles Joseph. My real motives are a reluctant fascination of Napoléon I Bonaparte, curiosity and the entertainment I get from debunking (both reading and writing). Anyway, my emotions for certain persons do not prevent me from telling the truth as far as I know it.
5. I don’t know about any “Oprah's Club”. I have no contact with any such organisation.
6. I am 26 years old and do not seem much older. Some people have even mistaken me for younger than I am!
7. I am not afraid of crowds. Most leikely, I have even smaller personal space than most Swedes.
8. I live in a 33 square metre apartment with linoleum floor, drainage and water supply.
9. The area where I live is nor a frozen desert nor a tundra but a quite densely populated agricultural area. Märsta I situated between the cities of Stockholm and Uppsala. If you read about the climate of Sweden you will find that it is temperate except the mountains in the north-west which has an Alpine climate.
10. In Sweden we don’t trap Mustelids in the wild: we breed them in captivity. However, this is controversial due to the conditions under which the animals are kept.
11. The earliest members of Bernadotte family I know about belonged to the bourgeoisie. If you read about Jean Baptiste Bernadotte you will find that his father Henri was a lawyer. Jean joined the French army in 1780 when Napoleone Buonaparte was just an eleven-year-old child. At the time of Napoléon’s coup d'état Jean was already a high ranking officer if not a general. It was the Swedish nobleman Carl Otto Mörner who came up with the idea of finding a new crown prince in the upper classes of France. If you had been an expert you would had known that making Jean crown prince of Sweden was not Napoléon’s idea.
12. Napoléon I never banished the Bernadottes from France. Jean Baptiste arrived to Sweden in 1810 adding “Charles” to his name. His wife and son arrived the following year. However, Desirée returned to France after a few months and did not move to Sweden permanently until 1823. This was eight years after the final defeat of Napoléon and two year after his death!
You may choose to believe me or not. But if you think I am intentionally lying please remember that you have absolutely no evidence of such asserts. I am no longer so sure about Napoléon’s last words but they might well have been the ones I mentioned. However, I am still convinced that those famous last words where made up by Charles Tristan de Montholon. According to Sten Forshufvud Charles’ eyewitness account of Napoléon’s existence on Saint Helena differs radically form those of the others. Several times Charles made claims that Sten – as a professional physician – recognised as medically impossible. Charles also made other assertions which have been disproved by ether professional or amateur historians. He claimed that he spent Maximilien de Robespierre’s Reign of Terror in Ajaccio where he come to know the Buonaparte family. He said that Napoléon had taught him Mathematics and Lucien Latin. The problem is that Maria Letizia Buonaparte moved to mainland France in 1785 with those of her children which still lived with her. To my knowledge both Napoléon and Lucien was nowhere near Ajaccio during the Reign of Terror. Hopefully you can found out where the two brothers where in 1793-94 by reading Wikipedia’s articles on Napoléon and Lucien Bonaparte. Charles also boasted about the many grievous wounds he had got in battle. Yet there are no other contemporary eyewitness accounts of such wounds. Worse, people which saw him naked have witnessed that he had almost no scars on his body. (I assume that those where ether persons he had sex with or servants waiting up to him when he took a bath.) Sten once wrote that Charles lied compulsorily. This may or may not be true but I am open to the possibility that Charles was a mythomaniac.
That Napoléon was unconscious when he died is a well known fact amongst experts in the field. The idea of him being so for at least 14 hours is based on a quote by Henri Gratien Bertrand translated to English by Sten Forshufvud. At four a clock in the morning on the fifth of May 1821 Henri noted on Napoléon’s condition: “He is no more than a corpse”. Henri has also witnessed that the physician Francesco Antommarchi was with him and Napoléon the night between forth and the fifth. However, Francesco did not pronounce Napoléon dead until roughly ten to six the following evening. As such I drew the conclusion that Henri’s comment on Napoléon’s condition was metaphorically meant and that he was just unconscious. Jean Abram Noverraz was not listed by Henri as one of the people which was with Napoléon the last night before he died. Yet he appears to have been present at the deathbed at the time of his death. Napoléon’s last two days in life is described in chapter 44 of “Assassination at St Helena” by Sten (physician and amateur historian) and Ben Weider (professional historian). The eyewitness account of Henri is outlined on pages 411-412 in Mitchell Press Limited’s 1978 edition. Ben sent me a copy of this book in December 2007 after we had had a lengthy correspondence about the cause of Napoléon’s death. The only message he got from me after that was a letter of thanks for the book in which I wrote what I thought about it: a bit outdated but mostly reliable. If you can’t answer me with arguments based on facts and without ad hominem attacks please leave this discussion or we will never get anywhere.
2009-01-21 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
The article claims that Empress Joséphine was given the title Countess of Navarre after the annulment of her marriage. Can someone verify this claim? Surtsicna ( talk) 15:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Is not the pneumonia diagnosis outdated? I think she died from sub-letal arsenic poisoning but I don’t have any good source to it.
2009-03-10 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.70 ( talk) 13:11, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
No, I am NOT speculating! What someone has died from have to be determined individually in each and every case! In the particular case of Joséphine I wonder what empirical evidence says to present-day physicians. If a physican of today reads the contemporary description of her symptoms and the autopsy report would he or she also draw the conclusion that Joséphine died from pneumonia? Or would such descriptions instead lead to the diagnosis of sub-lethal arsenic poisoning? I have not seen enough evidence for either case.
2011-01-05 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
We don't know why Joséphine could not have any child with Napoléon. But could falling from a balcony really cause the onset of menopause in a 35-year-old woman? I don't understand how.
2009-03-11 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.70 ( talk) 13:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I knew that Joséphine had two children – Eugène and Hortense – with her first husband. I am also aware that the present-day king of Sweden is a seventh generation descendant of her. When I wrote “sterility” I meant her later inability to have any child with her second husband Napoléon. This might well have been due to infection. Lose people are more likely to cache sexually transmitted diseases. There is in fact a sexually transmitted bacterium ( Chlamydia trachomatis) which can make a woman sterile without giving any symptoms. Anyway, this is just a probable explanation since we very likely will never know.
2009-04-03 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.70 ( talk) 17:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
This title is silly. The Bonapartes tribe were not an ancient royal dynasty where normal royal naming rules work. They were just a minor Corsican noble family, and surnames for them should be treated like surnames for anybody else. This article should be at Joséphine Bonaparte, in the same way that we have, say [[Dolley Madison] rather than Dolley Todd. john k ( talk) 14:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
A portrait of Josèphine with a low degree of beautification is here. At the very least she could have looked like this since every single trait can be found among people alive today. The painting is too old to have any copyright. If it originally had any it has long expired by now.
2010-12-29 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.153.12 ( talk) 13:23, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
No mention of the famous rose garden Josephine built at Malmaison? Is there a reason it's not included here? If not may I add a section? For some of us, this is what she's known for - her rose garden. Oh by the way she was married to that guy Napoleon also, which allowed her to get roses from all over the world when no one else could. Dog Walking Girl ( talk) 06:11, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
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During a recent visit to Martinique we learned that slavery was abolished in the French colonies in 1787 during the French Revolution. However Napoleon, supposedly at the urging of Josephine, reinstated slavery until 1848 when it was finally abolished for good. Josephine is therefore despised in Martinique and her statue in the park in Fort-de-France was decapitated, and remains headless to this day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.225.101 ( talk) 18:05, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved DrStrauss talk 13:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Joséphine de Beauharnais →
Empress Joséphine – On this talk page there have been doubts expressed about whether this article is at the right title. I am aware that she is sometimes known by this name, but it does seem odd that her article is not at either her maiden name, or her name from her better known marriage "Josephine Bonaparte". There is no consistent naming convention for royal or imperial consorts, see
WP:NCROY, we should just go for her common and most recognisable name, "Empress Joséphine".
PatGallacher (
talk) 17:32, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
Her two children by Beauharnais became significant to royal lineage.
The use of the acute accent (French: l'accent aigu) in the spelling of "Joséphine" is inconsistent in this article. I've fixed a couple of instances and may be able to correct the rest in the next few days. Matuko ( talk) 06:15, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian ( talk) 18:22, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Empress Joséphine → Joséphine de Beauharnais – The only definitive guideline provided by WP:CONSORTS is that "The titles "Queen" and "Empress" are generally not included in article titles for deceased consorts". The only supporter of the RM which moved the page to this title cited the example of Queen Victoria as permitting the use of "Queen" or "Empress" in an article title, which is an inaccurate comparison as Victoria was a sovereign Queen, Joséphine merely the first consort of Napoleon. Furthermore, their marriage was annulled so she didn't even die Empress. Napoleon's second wife (and widow) has no reference to her status as Empress in the title, so neither should Joséphine. Estar8806 ( talk) 18:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC)