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In order to improve this article I propose the the table of contents be reconfigured. By doing so, this article could meet the featured article criteria for structure. Section 3 has a lot of problems. With nine subheadings it is overwhelming. Also- the section heading is named, "Events in Jonestown before Ryan visit. A few of the subsections include Ryan's visit as well as the airstrip shootings. Some information in the sections can be moved to other sections.
The original table of contents beginning with sections three to six read as:
• 3Events in Jonestown before Ryan visit o 3.1White Nights rehearsals o 3.2Stoen custody dispute o 3.3Exploring another potential exodus o 3.4Concerned Relatives o 3.5Conspiracism o 3.6Jones' declining physical and mental health o 3.7Initial investigation o 3.8Visits to Jonestown o 3.9Port Kaituma airstrip shootings • 4Deaths in Jonestown o 4.1Survivors and eyewitnesses o 4.2Medical examinations o 4.3Notes from deceased residents • 5Deaths in Georgetown • 6Aftermath
I propose that it look like this:
• 3Spiraling Down • 3.1 Jones’ declining physical and mental health • 3.2 White Nights rehearsals • 3.3 Exploring another potential exodus • 3.4 Concerned Relatives • 3.5 Conspiracism
• 4 Visits and Investigations • 4.1 Congressman Ryan’s Visit • 4.2 Defectors
• 5Port Kaituma airstrip shootings
• 6 Jonestown suicides and murders • 6.1 Medical Investigations • 7 Deaths in Georgetown
• 8Aftermath • 8.1 (info from original aftermath section) • 8.2 Survivors and eyewitnesses • 8.3 Notes from the deceased
I believe this format would significantly improve organization.
Lalunajf ( talk) 14:30, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Added content to the "Selection and establishment of Guyanese":
Although Jones, his executive partners, and congregation voiced their thoughts about moving their operation to the Soviet Union, Jones had a change of heart. He had stated that he preferred to stay within the Guyanese borders because of the sovereignty it afforded them.
An addition of content was made to "Exploring another potential exodus":
Jones was skillful in presenting the Guyanese government the benefits of allowing the Peoples Temple Agricultural Project to settle within its borders. One of the main tactics was to speak of the advantages that their American presence near the Guyanese border of Venezuela. This idea seemed promising to the People’s National Congress who feared attack from Venezuela
An editor recently removed another editor's changes and stated, "The territorial dispute has absolutely nothing to do with this topic." While I support the removal insofar as the dispute was mentioned in an irrelevant manner (it was merely stated that Guyana's control of the region was disputed by Venezuela), it is worth noting that the dispute does in fact have some relevance to Jonestown. To quote Raven, in the eyes of Guyanese officials "a thousand or so Americans less than thirty miles from the Venezuelan border would help Guyana maintain its tenuous foothold and would lessen the possibility of a Venezuelan invasion or seizure. They would hardly want to provoke an international incident with the American government." (p. 239) -- Ismail ( talk) 14:01, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Formerly a POV fork containing huge swaths of WP:OR and uncited speculation, Jonestown conspiracy theories has been cleaned up. The remaining material can be appropriately merged into this article. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 14:49, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Jonestown conspiracy theories is a content fork for fringe views. Such a page is not for indiscriminately listing all conspiracies (notability be damned!), and yet that's all it was before a major pruning. The resulting is suitable as a small section of the parent article. Estheim ( talk) 18:33, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Done.
Beeblebrox (
talk)
21:59, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that the audio file of the Jonestown deathtape included in this article have a content warning placed on it. I respect that the file is a historical document and therefore can be used to provide more insight into this event. However, it is extremely confronting and has the potential to cause psychological distress. I was 24 years old when I listened to its content, and I was so disturbed I didn't sleep for three days. The file should remain attached to the article and easily accessible as it is an extremely important document. However, because Wikipedia is such a public platform with open access to people of all ages and backgrounds, placing content warnings on sensitive material allows readers to make informed decisions when engaging with sensitive content. I understand Wikipedia does not commonly use content warnings on its articles which are predominantly text based. However, nor does Wikipedia use explicit images, particularly on articles on sensitive topics (I notice no photos of the corpses at Jonestown are included in this article). As this audio is explicit, I feel in the interest of safety, a content warning is warranted, for the same reason that images of the deceased from this incident have not been included in this article. 124.149.229.101 ( talk) 23:29, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
While there already exists 2 articles discussing Jonestown location + events and the conspiracy theories behind it respectively, the remote settlement has much information compared to the massacre that occurred on November 18, 1978. I say there should remain “Jonestown” and an extra page for “1978 Jonestown massacre” as one can discuss the settlement, it’s history, members, the aftermath and briefly about the massacre. While the other can discuss 90% about the massacre, the airstrip murders, “Death Tape”, aftermath of the murder-suicides and briefly about the location. CanadianOntarian ( talk) 22:19, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Yes, what I’m suggesting is Jonestown (location) should be one article, and the Jonestown Massacre should be another. The assembly of the location and the massacre were two separate topics all together. I also agree that we shouldn’t add 1978 to it CanadianOntarian ( talk) 17:31, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
I agree that there's enough reliable sources to more than adequately fill two separate articles: one on the Jonestown settlement and another focused on November 18, 1978. -- Ismail ( talk) 15:51, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Shall we proceed with this transformation then? Jonestown (location) will contain information and sources regarding the settlement, it’s residents and geographical information. Jonestown massacre shall contain information and sources regarding the murder-suicides, a brief description of the Airstrip murders, the “death tape” and more about the killings. CanadianOntarian ( talk) 05:12, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
Comment I don't think the place and the event can be so distinctly separated. I doubt anyone would question this page's inclusion in the Massacres category either, so I'm not seeing why that would be reason for a split. Yeah, it 'can' be split, but I'm struggling to come up with why a reader would only want to read about the location in isolation from the murder-suicide-politics-etc. If it were a settlement before Jim Jones, or had any settlement since then (it's not on the census of Guyana but there is another settlement by the name: Jonestown, Mahaica) but it's not. If anything, more information about the settlement-aspect would serve to enrich this article and I don't see it adding any sort of undue weight as it is. A split makes it run the risks like the Jonestown conspiracy theories article which ought to be merged. While I understand Place vs. Event (and I've wondered the same about some articles), I'm not seeing a clear benefit for a split. Estheim ( talk) 18:36, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
To clarify, when you are reading an article about a murder-suicide that was the second-largest loss of American life, people wouldn’t understand why the title is named a town; specifically, the settlement Jonestown. They’ll most likely think they are reading about the settlement only instead of the massacre. When I searched up Jonestown on wikipedia, I originally thought it an article would contain the words: “murder-suicide” or “massacre” but I was confused along with other classmates who were researching about the topic that the only article primarily about the murder-suicides is named “Jonestown” and not “Jonestown massacre”. It would simply be more informative to the reader that the settlement and the massacre were two different subjects. I can see why the majority is against splitting but I would ask for a name change to “Jonestown massacre” or making two articles regarding Jonestown settlement and the Jonestown massacre respectively. CanadianOntarian ( talk) 02:59, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
In order to improve this article I propose the the table of contents be reconfigured. By doing so, this article could meet the featured article criteria for structure. Section 3 has a lot of problems. With nine subheadings it is overwhelming. Also- the section heading is named, "Events in Jonestown before Ryan visit. A few of the subsections include Ryan's visit as well as the airstrip shootings. Some information in the sections can be moved to other sections.
The original table of contents beginning with sections three to six read as:
• 3Events in Jonestown before Ryan visit o 3.1White Nights rehearsals o 3.2Stoen custody dispute o 3.3Exploring another potential exodus o 3.4Concerned Relatives o 3.5Conspiracism o 3.6Jones' declining physical and mental health o 3.7Initial investigation o 3.8Visits to Jonestown o 3.9Port Kaituma airstrip shootings • 4Deaths in Jonestown o 4.1Survivors and eyewitnesses o 4.2Medical examinations o 4.3Notes from deceased residents • 5Deaths in Georgetown • 6Aftermath
I propose that it look like this:
• 3Spiraling Down • 3.1 Jones’ declining physical and mental health • 3.2 White Nights rehearsals • 3.3 Exploring another potential exodus • 3.4 Concerned Relatives • 3.5 Conspiracism
• 4 Visits and Investigations • 4.1 Congressman Ryan’s Visit • 4.2 Defectors
• 5Port Kaituma airstrip shootings
• 6 Jonestown suicides and murders • 6.1 Medical Investigations • 7 Deaths in Georgetown
• 8Aftermath • 8.1 (info from original aftermath section) • 8.2 Survivors and eyewitnesses • 8.3 Notes from the deceased
I believe this format would significantly improve organization.
Lalunajf ( talk) 14:30, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Added content to the "Selection and establishment of Guyanese":
Although Jones, his executive partners, and congregation voiced their thoughts about moving their operation to the Soviet Union, Jones had a change of heart. He had stated that he preferred to stay within the Guyanese borders because of the sovereignty it afforded them.
An addition of content was made to "Exploring another potential exodus":
Jones was skillful in presenting the Guyanese government the benefits of allowing the Peoples Temple Agricultural Project to settle within its borders. One of the main tactics was to speak of the advantages that their American presence near the Guyanese border of Venezuela. This idea seemed promising to the People’s National Congress who feared attack from Venezuela
An editor recently removed another editor's changes and stated, "The territorial dispute has absolutely nothing to do with this topic." While I support the removal insofar as the dispute was mentioned in an irrelevant manner (it was merely stated that Guyana's control of the region was disputed by Venezuela), it is worth noting that the dispute does in fact have some relevance to Jonestown. To quote Raven, in the eyes of Guyanese officials "a thousand or so Americans less than thirty miles from the Venezuelan border would help Guyana maintain its tenuous foothold and would lessen the possibility of a Venezuelan invasion or seizure. They would hardly want to provoke an international incident with the American government." (p. 239) -- Ismail ( talk) 14:01, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Formerly a POV fork containing huge swaths of WP:OR and uncited speculation, Jonestown conspiracy theories has been cleaned up. The remaining material can be appropriately merged into this article. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 14:49, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Jonestown conspiracy theories is a content fork for fringe views. Such a page is not for indiscriminately listing all conspiracies (notability be damned!), and yet that's all it was before a major pruning. The resulting is suitable as a small section of the parent article. Estheim ( talk) 18:33, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Done.
Beeblebrox (
talk)
21:59, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that the audio file of the Jonestown deathtape included in this article have a content warning placed on it. I respect that the file is a historical document and therefore can be used to provide more insight into this event. However, it is extremely confronting and has the potential to cause psychological distress. I was 24 years old when I listened to its content, and I was so disturbed I didn't sleep for three days. The file should remain attached to the article and easily accessible as it is an extremely important document. However, because Wikipedia is such a public platform with open access to people of all ages and backgrounds, placing content warnings on sensitive material allows readers to make informed decisions when engaging with sensitive content. I understand Wikipedia does not commonly use content warnings on its articles which are predominantly text based. However, nor does Wikipedia use explicit images, particularly on articles on sensitive topics (I notice no photos of the corpses at Jonestown are included in this article). As this audio is explicit, I feel in the interest of safety, a content warning is warranted, for the same reason that images of the deceased from this incident have not been included in this article. 124.149.229.101 ( talk) 23:29, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
While there already exists 2 articles discussing Jonestown location + events and the conspiracy theories behind it respectively, the remote settlement has much information compared to the massacre that occurred on November 18, 1978. I say there should remain “Jonestown” and an extra page for “1978 Jonestown massacre” as one can discuss the settlement, it’s history, members, the aftermath and briefly about the massacre. While the other can discuss 90% about the massacre, the airstrip murders, “Death Tape”, aftermath of the murder-suicides and briefly about the location. CanadianOntarian ( talk) 22:19, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Yes, what I’m suggesting is Jonestown (location) should be one article, and the Jonestown Massacre should be another. The assembly of the location and the massacre were two separate topics all together. I also agree that we shouldn’t add 1978 to it CanadianOntarian ( talk) 17:31, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
I agree that there's enough reliable sources to more than adequately fill two separate articles: one on the Jonestown settlement and another focused on November 18, 1978. -- Ismail ( talk) 15:51, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Shall we proceed with this transformation then? Jonestown (location) will contain information and sources regarding the settlement, it’s residents and geographical information. Jonestown massacre shall contain information and sources regarding the murder-suicides, a brief description of the Airstrip murders, the “death tape” and more about the killings. CanadianOntarian ( talk) 05:12, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
Comment I don't think the place and the event can be so distinctly separated. I doubt anyone would question this page's inclusion in the Massacres category either, so I'm not seeing why that would be reason for a split. Yeah, it 'can' be split, but I'm struggling to come up with why a reader would only want to read about the location in isolation from the murder-suicide-politics-etc. If it were a settlement before Jim Jones, or had any settlement since then (it's not on the census of Guyana but there is another settlement by the name: Jonestown, Mahaica) but it's not. If anything, more information about the settlement-aspect would serve to enrich this article and I don't see it adding any sort of undue weight as it is. A split makes it run the risks like the Jonestown conspiracy theories article which ought to be merged. While I understand Place vs. Event (and I've wondered the same about some articles), I'm not seeing a clear benefit for a split. Estheim ( talk) 18:36, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
To clarify, when you are reading an article about a murder-suicide that was the second-largest loss of American life, people wouldn’t understand why the title is named a town; specifically, the settlement Jonestown. They’ll most likely think they are reading about the settlement only instead of the massacre. When I searched up Jonestown on wikipedia, I originally thought it an article would contain the words: “murder-suicide” or “massacre” but I was confused along with other classmates who were researching about the topic that the only article primarily about the murder-suicides is named “Jonestown” and not “Jonestown massacre”. It would simply be more informative to the reader that the settlement and the massacre were two different subjects. I can see why the majority is against splitting but I would ask for a name change to “Jonestown massacre” or making two articles regarding Jonestown settlement and the Jonestown massacre respectively. CanadianOntarian ( talk) 02:59, 16 April 2021 (UTC)