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Given John Winthrop's footprint, both in Massachusetts and in what became an emerging American powerhouse, this biography has a paucity of information about the first governor and one of the prime movers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Winthrop's 'city on a hill' speech is still widely quoted today, and this bio is a disservice to wikipedia. I hope others will pick up on contributing here, and I will try to do my part. Regards, MarmadukePercy ( talk) 03:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
How is it possible that he arrived in Massachusetts in 1630 then was elected as governor in 1629? Dates should be checked into to prevent accidental time travel of historical figures. -- 174.58.41.2 ( talk) 18:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I think this article needs expansion. There is little information about his governorship. Noghiri ( talk) 18:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Modern American politicians, such as Ronald Reagan, continue to cite Winthrop as a source of inspiration. However, those who praise Winthrop fail to note his strident anti-democratic political tendencies. Winthrop stated, for example, "If we should change from a mixed aristocracy to mere democracy, first we should have no warrant in scripture for it: for there was no such government in Israel ... A democracy is, amongst civil nations, accounted the meanest and worst of all forms of government. [To allow it would be] a manifest breach of the 5th Commandment."[9]
The author is suggesting that Winthrop was speaking against what America would soon become. This is not true. Winthrop was speaking out against what is now know as direct democracy or rule by the majority which has throughout history led to abuse of the minority and the short, violent existences of nation states. The Founding Fathers were cognizant of the pitfalls historically associated with direct democracy (Federalist Number 10), and therefore adopted the structure of a representative republic that operates on democratic principles. This may seem like historical splitting of hairs, but detailed explanations such as this give correct historical perspective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.145.40.234 ( talk) 01:55, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of Indians in the article? If they are mentioned, then there is minimal if any information on the Indians and the colonists. Withrop mentioned Indians killing colonists in 1634. Cmguy777 ( talk) 15:59, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Slavery and the slave trade was practiced in the Massachusetts colony. This may be a controversial subject but I believe that this issue needs to be addressed in the article. Winthrop allowed African slavery and the slave trade. Cmguy777 ( talk) 18:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
This is a potential narrative for a slavery and slave trade section.
A religious aspect needs to be mentioned. Calvinism fit in well with the slave trade. Blacks were consider cursed and the Old Testament, according to the Puritans, condoned slavery.
Cmguy777 (
talk) 03:15, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Here is a second rewrite verson incorporating suggetions.
Good edit, Magicpiano. I would change the word "thought" to "law". The word thought, in my opinion, eludes to the reader that the Puritans were a philosophical society open to other opinions. Just looking at Winthrop's stern portrait and I get the feeling that one would not want to mess with this man or any other Puritan. The Purtians meant business and other ideas or ways of life were severly curtailed, such as the destruction of the Merry Mount colony. I would keep the second paragraph in the slavery and slave trade section, since, there is controversy of Winthrop's participation in the 1641 law. The Massachusetts colonists tended to enslave Indians over blacks. Thousands of Indians were enslaved in Massachusetts. I believe the slavery and slave section is ready to put in the article. Any other concerns? Cmguy777 ( talk) 19:44, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Charles Anderson in the Great Migration series (1995) gives the name of Winthrop's first wife as Mary Forth. In fact, the couple had a child named Forth. (see pp 2039-2040) Sarnold17 ( talk) 00:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Current version "John Winthrop (12 January 1587/8[1] – 26 March 1649) was a wealthy English Puritan lawyer and one of the leading figures in the founding of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, the first major settlement in New England after Plymouth Colony."
Proposed Revised Version "John Winthrop (12 January 1587/8[1] – 26 March 1649) was a wealthy English Puritan lawyer and one of the leading figures in the founding of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, the fifth european settlement in New England."
This removes ambiguity around the order of colonization of north america and implied size issues; as the Virginia colony started at Jamestown was much larger and has been an established community 22 years prior to the granting of the charter for the Massachusetts Bay company. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.239.164.70 ( talk) 18:53, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:John Winthrop/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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---|---|
It seems to me that commentary of the type exeplified by the text excerpted below is inappropriate for an article which is ostensibly a biography of an historical figure.
<<Unfortunately, however, praise of Winthrop fails to note his strident anti-democratic political tendencies. Winthrop stated, for example, "If we should change from a mixed aristocracy to mere democracy, first we should have no warrant in scripture for it: for there was no such government in Israel ... A democracy is, amongst civil nations, accounted the meanest and worst of all forms of government. [To allow it would be] a manifest breach of the 5th Commandment."[3]>> However "unfortunate" the author may think John Winthrop's opinions of democracy to be, a encyclopedic biography is not the place to say so. Readers of Winthrop's excerpted comments on democracy may decide for themselves if he is indeed "strident." The commentary also betrays a point of view on the part of the author that is at least as miopic as Winthrop is accused of having. To expect Winthrop to hold a view of democratic government which resembles that held by the author is to require him to champion what he had never experienced, had no context for understanding in the way the author presumably does, and had no interest in promoting not because he was "strident(ly) anti-democratic" in contradiction of all good reason, but because he believed that the world was naturally hierarchical and that to deny this was not only preposterous but dangerous. Respectfully submitted Arucuan 20:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Arucuan |
Last edited at 20:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 20:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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At the very end of the " /info/en/?search=John_Winthrop#Arrival" section, it says that "Dudley's lands became Bedford, and Winthrop's Billerica", but that should instead read, "Dudley's lands became Billerica, and Winthrop's Bedford." If you check the source referenced in the article ("Jones, p. 251"), you'd notice it doesn't actually mention who chose which, but as we learn from various other sources, including photos of the historical marker located at the Two Brothers Rocks themselves (found at " https://www.google.com/maps/place/Two+Brothers+Rocks/@42.5150617,-71.3058127,-4a,31.1y/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNfLe_007NvEfG0oIb7L3WafqnOvAeHLinJRfSD!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNfLe_007NvEfG0oIb7L3WafqnOvAeHLinJRfSD%3Dw203-h152-k-no!7i4032!8i3024!4m15!1m7!3m6!1s0x89e3991fda4c9f71:0x3cc1a90218caf9ac!2sBedford+Boat+Ramp!8m2!3d42.5091122!4d-71.3131641!16s%2Fg%2F11c1p812s3!3m6!1s0x89e3990bfce8b10f:0x3714d962799452c!8m2!3d42.5150617!4d-71.3055425!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F11g23pvr_j?hl=en-US&entry=ttu"), Dudley chose the land NORTH of the rocks, while Winthrop chose SOUTH of them. Note on the map of the area (" https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Billerica%2C+Massachusetts+on+Massachusetts+map&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8"), Bedford is located just SOUTH of Billerica. Finally, note that Wikipedia's own article on Thomas Dudley (" /info/en/?search=Thomas_Dudley#Anne_Hutchinson_affair"), even while using the exact same source as this article, seems to get it right. (If it's okay with you, assuming you all agree, I'll leave it to someone else to fix it, as I'm afraid I might mess it up.) Thanks. 76.236.220.28 ( talk) 20:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
John Winthrop article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | John Winthrop has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on January 12, 2018, and January 12, 2023. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Given John Winthrop's footprint, both in Massachusetts and in what became an emerging American powerhouse, this biography has a paucity of information about the first governor and one of the prime movers of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Winthrop's 'city on a hill' speech is still widely quoted today, and this bio is a disservice to wikipedia. I hope others will pick up on contributing here, and I will try to do my part. Regards, MarmadukePercy ( talk) 03:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
How is it possible that he arrived in Massachusetts in 1630 then was elected as governor in 1629? Dates should be checked into to prevent accidental time travel of historical figures. -- 174.58.41.2 ( talk) 18:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I think this article needs expansion. There is little information about his governorship. Noghiri ( talk) 18:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Modern American politicians, such as Ronald Reagan, continue to cite Winthrop as a source of inspiration. However, those who praise Winthrop fail to note his strident anti-democratic political tendencies. Winthrop stated, for example, "If we should change from a mixed aristocracy to mere democracy, first we should have no warrant in scripture for it: for there was no such government in Israel ... A democracy is, amongst civil nations, accounted the meanest and worst of all forms of government. [To allow it would be] a manifest breach of the 5th Commandment."[9]
The author is suggesting that Winthrop was speaking against what America would soon become. This is not true. Winthrop was speaking out against what is now know as direct democracy or rule by the majority which has throughout history led to abuse of the minority and the short, violent existences of nation states. The Founding Fathers were cognizant of the pitfalls historically associated with direct democracy (Federalist Number 10), and therefore adopted the structure of a representative republic that operates on democratic principles. This may seem like historical splitting of hairs, but detailed explanations such as this give correct historical perspective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.145.40.234 ( talk) 01:55, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of Indians in the article? If they are mentioned, then there is minimal if any information on the Indians and the colonists. Withrop mentioned Indians killing colonists in 1634. Cmguy777 ( talk) 15:59, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Slavery and the slave trade was practiced in the Massachusetts colony. This may be a controversial subject but I believe that this issue needs to be addressed in the article. Winthrop allowed African slavery and the slave trade. Cmguy777 ( talk) 18:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
This is a potential narrative for a slavery and slave trade section.
A religious aspect needs to be mentioned. Calvinism fit in well with the slave trade. Blacks were consider cursed and the Old Testament, according to the Puritans, condoned slavery.
Cmguy777 (
talk) 03:15, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Here is a second rewrite verson incorporating suggetions.
Good edit, Magicpiano. I would change the word "thought" to "law". The word thought, in my opinion, eludes to the reader that the Puritans were a philosophical society open to other opinions. Just looking at Winthrop's stern portrait and I get the feeling that one would not want to mess with this man or any other Puritan. The Purtians meant business and other ideas or ways of life were severly curtailed, such as the destruction of the Merry Mount colony. I would keep the second paragraph in the slavery and slave trade section, since, there is controversy of Winthrop's participation in the 1641 law. The Massachusetts colonists tended to enslave Indians over blacks. Thousands of Indians were enslaved in Massachusetts. I believe the slavery and slave section is ready to put in the article. Any other concerns? Cmguy777 ( talk) 19:44, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Charles Anderson in the Great Migration series (1995) gives the name of Winthrop's first wife as Mary Forth. In fact, the couple had a child named Forth. (see pp 2039-2040) Sarnold17 ( talk) 00:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Current version "John Winthrop (12 January 1587/8[1] – 26 March 1649) was a wealthy English Puritan lawyer and one of the leading figures in the founding of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, the first major settlement in New England after Plymouth Colony."
Proposed Revised Version "John Winthrop (12 January 1587/8[1] – 26 March 1649) was a wealthy English Puritan lawyer and one of the leading figures in the founding of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, the fifth european settlement in New England."
This removes ambiguity around the order of colonization of north america and implied size issues; as the Virginia colony started at Jamestown was much larger and has been an established community 22 years prior to the granting of the charter for the Massachusetts Bay company. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.239.164.70 ( talk) 18:53, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:John Winthrop/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
It seems to me that commentary of the type exeplified by the text excerpted below is inappropriate for an article which is ostensibly a biography of an historical figure.
<<Unfortunately, however, praise of Winthrop fails to note his strident anti-democratic political tendencies. Winthrop stated, for example, "If we should change from a mixed aristocracy to mere democracy, first we should have no warrant in scripture for it: for there was no such government in Israel ... A democracy is, amongst civil nations, accounted the meanest and worst of all forms of government. [To allow it would be] a manifest breach of the 5th Commandment."[3]>> However "unfortunate" the author may think John Winthrop's opinions of democracy to be, a encyclopedic biography is not the place to say so. Readers of Winthrop's excerpted comments on democracy may decide for themselves if he is indeed "strident." The commentary also betrays a point of view on the part of the author that is at least as miopic as Winthrop is accused of having. To expect Winthrop to hold a view of democratic government which resembles that held by the author is to require him to champion what he had never experienced, had no context for understanding in the way the author presumably does, and had no interest in promoting not because he was "strident(ly) anti-democratic" in contradiction of all good reason, but because he believed that the world was naturally hierarchical and that to deny this was not only preposterous but dangerous. Respectfully submitted Arucuan 20:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Arucuan |
Last edited at 20:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 20:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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At the very end of the " /info/en/?search=John_Winthrop#Arrival" section, it says that "Dudley's lands became Bedford, and Winthrop's Billerica", but that should instead read, "Dudley's lands became Billerica, and Winthrop's Bedford." If you check the source referenced in the article ("Jones, p. 251"), you'd notice it doesn't actually mention who chose which, but as we learn from various other sources, including photos of the historical marker located at the Two Brothers Rocks themselves (found at " https://www.google.com/maps/place/Two+Brothers+Rocks/@42.5150617,-71.3058127,-4a,31.1y/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNfLe_007NvEfG0oIb7L3WafqnOvAeHLinJRfSD!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNfLe_007NvEfG0oIb7L3WafqnOvAeHLinJRfSD%3Dw203-h152-k-no!7i4032!8i3024!4m15!1m7!3m6!1s0x89e3991fda4c9f71:0x3cc1a90218caf9ac!2sBedford+Boat+Ramp!8m2!3d42.5091122!4d-71.3131641!16s%2Fg%2F11c1p812s3!3m6!1s0x89e3990bfce8b10f:0x3714d962799452c!8m2!3d42.5150617!4d-71.3055425!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F11g23pvr_j?hl=en-US&entry=ttu"), Dudley chose the land NORTH of the rocks, while Winthrop chose SOUTH of them. Note on the map of the area (" https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Billerica%2C+Massachusetts+on+Massachusetts+map&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8"), Bedford is located just SOUTH of Billerica. Finally, note that Wikipedia's own article on Thomas Dudley (" /info/en/?search=Thomas_Dudley#Anne_Hutchinson_affair"), even while using the exact same source as this article, seems to get it right. (If it's okay with you, assuming you all agree, I'll leave it to someone else to fix it, as I'm afraid I might mess it up.) Thanks. 76.236.220.28 ( talk) 20:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)