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According to his book "Bury The Chains," Adam Hochschild states that John Newton wrote the hymn "Amazing Grace" while he was still involved in the slave trade and actually was a captin on a Trans-Atlantic slave ship twice. It wasn't until ill health, preventing him from continuing his slave trade involvement, and external pressures from progressive forces that led him to change his position on the issue of slavery. Please amend the introductory paragraph to reflect this truth.
ALL these mistakes and misunderstandings in chronology can be cleared up if one will simply consult Newton himself. His autobiography, Out of the Depths, has been available for nearly 200 years, and is still in print (Kregel Publishers). Tjamespaul 17:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
An article by Todd Parkhurst "The Story of Amazing Grace" gives the date of writing Amazing Grace as 1772, long after he left the slave trade in 1754. He adds that the 1858 "Southern Harmony and Musical Companion" containing the hymn and (new) melody sold more than 600,000 copies in America. This article is also a useful source of further details regarding his contact with William Wilberforce and his mother Hannah. Philatstoneypath 09:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
iirc although Newton retired as a slave captain before writing Amazing Grace, he continued to invest heavily in slaving and slave ships until long afterwards. I'll try to dig out my copy of Bury the Chains to get more details. -Giford 80.177.173.100 ( talk) 09:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
A very interesting and illuminating piece of information about Wilberforce's call - thanks for adding this. Do you have a source for this quotation? - I would be interested to know. – Agendum 22:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the link to Thornton because it led to someone else (a football player, I believe). -
Triviaa 02:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The point about John Newton's time as a slave trader, and the reason that I have reverted edits by 71.226.193.19 is that these are important stages in his journey from an 'infidel and libertine' to a Christian preacher. This has been researched, the sources being the article by D. Bruce Hindmarsh in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and Bury the Chains by Adam Hochschild. It is especially important that he is accurately quoted (according to his own epitaph) as having been a 'servant of slaves in Africa' – Agendum 21:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I just changed the link for "Evanglical revival" in the section about his conversion to Christianity to link to the First Great Awakening article instead of the Revivalism article, because the Revivalism article doesn't have very much information in it about the Great Awakening. I could see an argument for leaving it linked to Revivalism, though, if Revivalism were expanded and cleaned up. I don't have the expertise to do so, though. Just thought I'd leave a note in case someone wanted to change the link here back at some point. faithx5 15:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
So, if he was previously not a Christian, what was he? — coelacan talk — 22:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
A an 'evangelical' Christian, Newton believed that you cannot be born into the Christian religion, but had to come to faith following a conviction of sin and repentance. In his autobiograpy "Out of the Depths" he interleaves his accounts of events such as the storm and near shipwreck with his internal spiritual struggle that ended with his resolution to turn to God for help. As he put it: "About this time I began to know that there is a God who hears and answers prayer". For those who want to find out more detail about Newton's spirituality, I would recommend "Letters of John Newton" (Banner of Truth) and a critical analysis in "John Newton and the Evangelical Tradition by D. Bruce Hindmarsh" (Eerdmans) Philatstoneypath 09:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the term 'Christian minister' would be more appropriate to an evangelical clergyman of Newton's persuasion than 'Christian priest', and have changed the sub-heading back again – Agendum 13:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I think "Christian minister" is more appropriate as well, but for a different reason. The term "Christian priest" is non-idiomatic and perhaps even somewhat redundant. As for the use of the term "priest," it should be noted that the Church of England does have priests, and that Newton was ordained as a priest of the Church of England, as the article indicates.
John Paul Parks ( talk) 19:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
By whom? – Agendum 22:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The last paragraph under Anglican priest appears to be oddly un-Wikipedia like in content and placement and has the distinct feel of an encyclopedia or book opening paragraph. This paragraph begins with the sentence “John Newton (1725–1807) captained two Liverpool slave ships in his twenties and kept detailed logs of his voyages.” This wording was added 15:56, 14 January 2008 by 81.1.123.107. The use of birth-death dates in parentheses and describing in summary highlights of his life already covered are at odds with the balance of the article. I performed several searches using common search engines and could NOT find an exact match from another resource at this time, however I would like to get others opinion whether this paragraph should be left as-is, edited to flow better with the rest of the article, or deleted as a suspected copyright violation. Thank you. Civilengtiger ( talk) 20:07, 26 February 2008 (UTC) John Paul Parks ( talk) 03:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I have deleted the section "final years" as all it contained was the false statement that John Newton never married. In fact he was very happily married to Mary nee Catlett (known as Polly) from 1750 until her death in 1790. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.51.159.237 ( talk) 21:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that "Portrayals in literature, movies and other media" is a suitable section for a serious article. It may be better under a "Trivia" subhead. What do others think? – Agendum ( talk) 20:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
the slave trade is bad and it always will be! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.155.24.241 ( talk) 15:56, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Could the text be more accurate? What Newton said in his autobiography was that he was “kept a while in irons, then publicly stripped and whipped, after which I was degraded from my office, and all my former companions forbidden to shew me the least favour, or even to speak to me”(1). His punishment for desertion in wartime was therefore (a) close imprisonment (b) public removal of clothing (c) public flogging (d) demotion from the rank of midshipman and (e) sent to Coventry. What evidence is there for the number of lashes or the number of spectators? The Lawless One ( talk) 10:48, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Dunn 1994, p. 7.is a wp:SELFPUBLISHed article by a non-notable author and so fails WP:RS. Further, the author cites
Grace Irwin, Servant of Slaves, Oliphants, 1965, pp. 84–85., which is "a biographical novel", so definitely not an RS.
The text says “Clowe took Newton to the coast of and gave him to his wife Princess Peye, an African duchess.” Where is the evidence for these statements? If we look at Newton’s autobiography (i), we find on page 64 that Clowe took Newton to an island off present-day Sierra Leone. There he left him in the charge of his unnamed African mistress, who was a “person of some consequence in her own country”. How, if Newton is silent about them, do we know (a) her name of Peye (b) her title of princess (c) her rank of duchess and (d) her marital status of wife? The Lawless One ( talk) 17:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
(i) An Authentic Narrative, 3rd edition, London, 1765
there is NO proof of John Newton having anymore than simple regret concerning the career choice that he had for the most of his working life. The idea that he was a prominent abolitionist is absurd as it has no factual backing. It should be completely edited out and perhaps a section regarding Newton's memoirs of personal regret could be applied. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.136.74.193 ( talk) 07:47, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I disagree. Newton published a work in opposition to the slave trade. Simple regret doesn't move you to publish a work in your own name, sell the whole printing, and reprint and sell some more. Publishing opposition to a commercially viable and valuable practice was shocking at the time, and he had to defend that position for 25 years. That qualifies him as a prominent abolitionist of his time. Kevwp ( talk) 02:50, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
I enjoyed the article in general, but I see a glaring hole: John Newton was, at one point and for several years, a slave trader. It is mentioned in other categories, but not addressed directly. The other categories are all appropriate, of course.
According to comments on this talk page, Newton spent 6-9 years trading slaves. I believe he mentioned regret for trading over 20,000 individuals - whether directly or also those who were traded due to his investing in slave trading.
Currently, I see sections on Early Life, Spiritual Conversion, Anglican Priest, Abolitionist, Writer and Hymnist.
Shouldn't this period of Newton's life, which occupied up to a quarter of his 82 years, have a separate section?
It would only take a couple of paragraphs for a basic treatment of this large part of his life.
Kevwp ( talk) 02:42, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
The following is perhaps not worded correctly: "Newton later came to believe that, during the first five of his nine years as a slave trader, he had not been a Christian in the full sense of the term: "I was greatly deficient in many respects ... I cannot consider myself to have been a believer in the full sense of the word, until a considerable time later."
I think this implies that Newton, in the latter four years as a slave trader, was a "Christian in the full sense of the term." I think his primary conversion (or the beginning of his conversion - depending on your point of view) began somewhere in the middle of his career as a slave trader. So his quote would be a reference to his "fully" becoming a Christian sometime after his slave trading activities.
184.78.168.124 ( talk) 08:11, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
@ KalebGiraya and 20.133.0.13: Please stop your edit warring at once. You are both guilty of breaking the WP:3RR rule. If you wish to discuss the two quotations come here to the talk page and leave the main page alone until consensus has been achieved. You are both running the risk of admin action which might include blocking. Martin of Sheffield ( talk) 17:10, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Why write "Newton did not however immediately renounce working in the slave trade". What is the purpose of this sentence? Newton was actively involved in the slave trade for many years. The sentence appears in the middle of accounts of his career. There is no reason for even suggesting that he would renounce the work he was doing. The sentence, particularly the "however" implies some reason why he would do so, but none is given Royalcourtier ( talk) 23:03, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
@ Softlavender:@ Pittman440: You have both made 3 or more reverts this evening in direct contravention of WP:3RR. Before this gets unpleasant, please come here to this talk page and argue it out here. Pittman440: you need to provide a citation or else the claim about Newton's disbelief in African souls will continue to be reverted. Martin of Sheffield ( talk) 22:03, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
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I know he wrote a preface on Bunyan´s Pilgrim Progress(1776). So Can anyone add it to his writing carrer, it seems to be missing. TY Terrorwatcher ( talk) 00:11, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
This movie is also about John Newton, but it isn't mentioned here, nor is there a link from the " Newton's Grace" wiki page to here. I don't know enough to do it. NotAtlas ( talk) 02:43, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Should the article talk more about his profits off of like a decade of the buying and selling of people of color? Yea he changed later in life but still...... 174.47.44.231 ( talk) 17:32, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
During this period, he also applied to the Methodists, Independents and Presbyterians. However in the period concerned (between 1755-1765) the Methodists were a movement within the Church of England, not becoming a separate, Nonconformist, denomination until after the deaths of the Wesley brothers in the 1790s, so no machinery for taking applicants for its ministry. I have therefore deleted "Methodists" from the sentence. Cloptonson ( talk) 12:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
John Newton article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
According to his book "Bury The Chains," Adam Hochschild states that John Newton wrote the hymn "Amazing Grace" while he was still involved in the slave trade and actually was a captin on a Trans-Atlantic slave ship twice. It wasn't until ill health, preventing him from continuing his slave trade involvement, and external pressures from progressive forces that led him to change his position on the issue of slavery. Please amend the introductory paragraph to reflect this truth.
ALL these mistakes and misunderstandings in chronology can be cleared up if one will simply consult Newton himself. His autobiography, Out of the Depths, has been available for nearly 200 years, and is still in print (Kregel Publishers). Tjamespaul 17:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
An article by Todd Parkhurst "The Story of Amazing Grace" gives the date of writing Amazing Grace as 1772, long after he left the slave trade in 1754. He adds that the 1858 "Southern Harmony and Musical Companion" containing the hymn and (new) melody sold more than 600,000 copies in America. This article is also a useful source of further details regarding his contact with William Wilberforce and his mother Hannah. Philatstoneypath 09:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
iirc although Newton retired as a slave captain before writing Amazing Grace, he continued to invest heavily in slaving and slave ships until long afterwards. I'll try to dig out my copy of Bury the Chains to get more details. -Giford 80.177.173.100 ( talk) 09:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
A very interesting and illuminating piece of information about Wilberforce's call - thanks for adding this. Do you have a source for this quotation? - I would be interested to know. – Agendum 22:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the link to Thornton because it led to someone else (a football player, I believe). -
Triviaa 02:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The point about John Newton's time as a slave trader, and the reason that I have reverted edits by 71.226.193.19 is that these are important stages in his journey from an 'infidel and libertine' to a Christian preacher. This has been researched, the sources being the article by D. Bruce Hindmarsh in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and Bury the Chains by Adam Hochschild. It is especially important that he is accurately quoted (according to his own epitaph) as having been a 'servant of slaves in Africa' – Agendum 21:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I just changed the link for "Evanglical revival" in the section about his conversion to Christianity to link to the First Great Awakening article instead of the Revivalism article, because the Revivalism article doesn't have very much information in it about the Great Awakening. I could see an argument for leaving it linked to Revivalism, though, if Revivalism were expanded and cleaned up. I don't have the expertise to do so, though. Just thought I'd leave a note in case someone wanted to change the link here back at some point. faithx5 15:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
So, if he was previously not a Christian, what was he? — coelacan talk — 22:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
A an 'evangelical' Christian, Newton believed that you cannot be born into the Christian religion, but had to come to faith following a conviction of sin and repentance. In his autobiograpy "Out of the Depths" he interleaves his accounts of events such as the storm and near shipwreck with his internal spiritual struggle that ended with his resolution to turn to God for help. As he put it: "About this time I began to know that there is a God who hears and answers prayer". For those who want to find out more detail about Newton's spirituality, I would recommend "Letters of John Newton" (Banner of Truth) and a critical analysis in "John Newton and the Evangelical Tradition by D. Bruce Hindmarsh" (Eerdmans) Philatstoneypath 09:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the term 'Christian minister' would be more appropriate to an evangelical clergyman of Newton's persuasion than 'Christian priest', and have changed the sub-heading back again – Agendum 13:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I think "Christian minister" is more appropriate as well, but for a different reason. The term "Christian priest" is non-idiomatic and perhaps even somewhat redundant. As for the use of the term "priest," it should be noted that the Church of England does have priests, and that Newton was ordained as a priest of the Church of England, as the article indicates.
John Paul Parks ( talk) 19:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
By whom? – Agendum 22:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The last paragraph under Anglican priest appears to be oddly un-Wikipedia like in content and placement and has the distinct feel of an encyclopedia or book opening paragraph. This paragraph begins with the sentence “John Newton (1725–1807) captained two Liverpool slave ships in his twenties and kept detailed logs of his voyages.” This wording was added 15:56, 14 January 2008 by 81.1.123.107. The use of birth-death dates in parentheses and describing in summary highlights of his life already covered are at odds with the balance of the article. I performed several searches using common search engines and could NOT find an exact match from another resource at this time, however I would like to get others opinion whether this paragraph should be left as-is, edited to flow better with the rest of the article, or deleted as a suspected copyright violation. Thank you. Civilengtiger ( talk) 20:07, 26 February 2008 (UTC) John Paul Parks ( talk) 03:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I have deleted the section "final years" as all it contained was the false statement that John Newton never married. In fact he was very happily married to Mary nee Catlett (known as Polly) from 1750 until her death in 1790. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.51.159.237 ( talk) 21:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that "Portrayals in literature, movies and other media" is a suitable section for a serious article. It may be better under a "Trivia" subhead. What do others think? – Agendum ( talk) 20:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
the slave trade is bad and it always will be! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.155.24.241 ( talk) 15:56, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Could the text be more accurate? What Newton said in his autobiography was that he was “kept a while in irons, then publicly stripped and whipped, after which I was degraded from my office, and all my former companions forbidden to shew me the least favour, or even to speak to me”(1). His punishment for desertion in wartime was therefore (a) close imprisonment (b) public removal of clothing (c) public flogging (d) demotion from the rank of midshipman and (e) sent to Coventry. What evidence is there for the number of lashes or the number of spectators? The Lawless One ( talk) 10:48, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Dunn 1994, p. 7.is a wp:SELFPUBLISHed article by a non-notable author and so fails WP:RS. Further, the author cites
Grace Irwin, Servant of Slaves, Oliphants, 1965, pp. 84–85., which is "a biographical novel", so definitely not an RS.
The text says “Clowe took Newton to the coast of and gave him to his wife Princess Peye, an African duchess.” Where is the evidence for these statements? If we look at Newton’s autobiography (i), we find on page 64 that Clowe took Newton to an island off present-day Sierra Leone. There he left him in the charge of his unnamed African mistress, who was a “person of some consequence in her own country”. How, if Newton is silent about them, do we know (a) her name of Peye (b) her title of princess (c) her rank of duchess and (d) her marital status of wife? The Lawless One ( talk) 17:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
(i) An Authentic Narrative, 3rd edition, London, 1765
there is NO proof of John Newton having anymore than simple regret concerning the career choice that he had for the most of his working life. The idea that he was a prominent abolitionist is absurd as it has no factual backing. It should be completely edited out and perhaps a section regarding Newton's memoirs of personal regret could be applied. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.136.74.193 ( talk) 07:47, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
I disagree. Newton published a work in opposition to the slave trade. Simple regret doesn't move you to publish a work in your own name, sell the whole printing, and reprint and sell some more. Publishing opposition to a commercially viable and valuable practice was shocking at the time, and he had to defend that position for 25 years. That qualifies him as a prominent abolitionist of his time. Kevwp ( talk) 02:50, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
I enjoyed the article in general, but I see a glaring hole: John Newton was, at one point and for several years, a slave trader. It is mentioned in other categories, but not addressed directly. The other categories are all appropriate, of course.
According to comments on this talk page, Newton spent 6-9 years trading slaves. I believe he mentioned regret for trading over 20,000 individuals - whether directly or also those who were traded due to his investing in slave trading.
Currently, I see sections on Early Life, Spiritual Conversion, Anglican Priest, Abolitionist, Writer and Hymnist.
Shouldn't this period of Newton's life, which occupied up to a quarter of his 82 years, have a separate section?
It would only take a couple of paragraphs for a basic treatment of this large part of his life.
Kevwp ( talk) 02:42, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
The following is perhaps not worded correctly: "Newton later came to believe that, during the first five of his nine years as a slave trader, he had not been a Christian in the full sense of the term: "I was greatly deficient in many respects ... I cannot consider myself to have been a believer in the full sense of the word, until a considerable time later."
I think this implies that Newton, in the latter four years as a slave trader, was a "Christian in the full sense of the term." I think his primary conversion (or the beginning of his conversion - depending on your point of view) began somewhere in the middle of his career as a slave trader. So his quote would be a reference to his "fully" becoming a Christian sometime after his slave trading activities.
184.78.168.124 ( talk) 08:11, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
@ KalebGiraya and 20.133.0.13: Please stop your edit warring at once. You are both guilty of breaking the WP:3RR rule. If you wish to discuss the two quotations come here to the talk page and leave the main page alone until consensus has been achieved. You are both running the risk of admin action which might include blocking. Martin of Sheffield ( talk) 17:10, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Why write "Newton did not however immediately renounce working in the slave trade". What is the purpose of this sentence? Newton was actively involved in the slave trade for many years. The sentence appears in the middle of accounts of his career. There is no reason for even suggesting that he would renounce the work he was doing. The sentence, particularly the "however" implies some reason why he would do so, but none is given Royalcourtier ( talk) 23:03, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
@ Softlavender:@ Pittman440: You have both made 3 or more reverts this evening in direct contravention of WP:3RR. Before this gets unpleasant, please come here to this talk page and argue it out here. Pittman440: you need to provide a citation or else the claim about Newton's disbelief in African souls will continue to be reverted. Martin of Sheffield ( talk) 22:03, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on John Newton. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:13, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
I know he wrote a preface on Bunyan´s Pilgrim Progress(1776). So Can anyone add it to his writing carrer, it seems to be missing. TY Terrorwatcher ( talk) 00:11, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
This movie is also about John Newton, but it isn't mentioned here, nor is there a link from the " Newton's Grace" wiki page to here. I don't know enough to do it. NotAtlas ( talk) 02:43, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Should the article talk more about his profits off of like a decade of the buying and selling of people of color? Yea he changed later in life but still...... 174.47.44.231 ( talk) 17:32, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
During this period, he also applied to the Methodists, Independents and Presbyterians. However in the period concerned (between 1755-1765) the Methodists were a movement within the Church of England, not becoming a separate, Nonconformist, denomination until after the deaths of the Wesley brothers in the 1790s, so no machinery for taking applicants for its ministry. I have therefore deleted "Methodists" from the sentence. Cloptonson ( talk) 12:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)