![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archived as of August 1, 2004. If anything else needs to be moved back out of the archives, feel free, but please be aware of the page size. Ambi 12:41, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
There was a poll in progress, so I've again taken that part of the Talk page from the archive and copied it back in here. I did not copy the lengthy "Comment" subsection from the archived poll discussion -- only the first few subsections, the ones with the votes in them. JamesMLane 08:50, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
All right now. Let's have an informal poll see if they's some way we can stop this before I go completely insane. Here's how it works. Submit what you think shoud be the content of the disputed section in a sub-talk page so we can get a rough estimate of where the consensus is. (A sub-talk page is like this: Talk:John Kerry/Sample.) Neutrality 06:15, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
( John Kerry/VVAW cross-reference)
Change in this version: The suggestion from Aaron Hill was a good idea. I've added the testimony pic from the protected article. The image of the medal and ribbon would be appropriate for the separate article that will address the medal-vs.-ribbon distinction in more detail. JamesMLane 10:23, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Here is Rex's (1st version - see 2nd below) of "VVAW": Talk:John_Kerry/Rex's_version (moved to subpage by Ambivalenthysteria for brevity)
See Rex's 3rd version below, under section titled: "1971 Meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) (Rex v.3 - How about this?)" Rex071404 15:11, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Regarding the protection: I know the page was only very recently unprotected, but judging by the number of reversions (at least five in the last hour before protection) and the accompanying edit summaries, I thought things were rapidly heading downhill with no end to the reversions in sight. I especially want to bring to attention this illuminating edit summary by Rex071404:
To Rex: Please understand that charges of vandalism and sockpuppetry are serious accusations and should not be bandied about lightly. This sort of language violates both wikiquette and the civility rule. So please, for the sake of everyone concerned (including yourself), try to keep the slander and histrionics to a minimum (preferably zero). Thanks for your consideration. -- Hadal 07:41, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've been away for 36 hours, and it's disappointing to see that things have gone rapidly downhill. For starters, this page should never have been unprotected at the point it was at. Another 48 hours, and things might have been different.
That said, I believe the vote above was straightforward enough that it's safe to say that Rex went against consensus by adding in his own version. That was unacceptable, as it is not his place to decide that he is allowed to ignore certain people's votes. However, I think it also highlights just how bad a mess much of this article is. Looking at this edit by Rex, he's added in two sections which seem to me to be a) somewhat poorly written, and b) still with something of an anti-Kerry POV. On the other hand, he's left in a general section about VVAW which is just as POV - in the opposite direction.
I think we should bring in a mediator - quickly - and go through this article, section by section. Much of the sections about Kerry's ancestry, childhood and military career needs condensing. Large pieces need NPOVing (as they're either pro-or-anti-Kerry), and other pieces are just badly worded. And we have other details which are completely pointless - who cares what book he read during the 2003 campaign? If we move quickly, I think we could get this up to a much better standard within a couple of weeks - and well ahead of the immediate prelude to the election, when the article is likely to be receiving most hits.
Finally, in the meantime, I suggest that all of us protagonists in this dispute come to an agreement not to edit the article while the dispute is ongoing, so that the article can be unprotected. Thus, we could treat it as if it were protected, without having it appear that way to outside contributors - and making Wikipedia as a whole look bad. Ambi 10:06, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I suggest this:
Armed with this framework, I am pretty sure we can re-do the page to something we all will accept. Rex071404 17:59, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The fact that the non-"positive" links keep getting removed, regardless of where they are placed, makes me leery of yielding on this issue. The ABC News and NY Sun links deserve to be on the main page. At lot of much less germane information is. To keep these out, in light of what's allowed in, is too much POV. Rex071404 03:39, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The page has been unprotected, because protected pages are bad, especially when they're on pages that have information that changes significantly and rapidly, as current major Presidential candidates do. Note that continued edit warring on this page will be frowned upon, and may lead to users being blocked for disruption of Wikipedia. Snowspinner 19:05, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)
I should know better than to edit in this war zone, but there are a few changes I just made which shouldn't be controversial.
The article mentions Kerry's ribbons and the "two medals" without ever mentioning why this is a point. Never mind that ribbons-medals has been a point of controversy for years. Even never mind that Kerry has claimed to have thrown more than "two" medals. The only source we have for the origin of the two medals Kerry said he threw is Kerry himself. He said that one WWII veteran and one Vietnam veteran each gave him a medal or medals, that he put them in his (shirt, IIRC) pocket and when it was time for him to throw his ribbons, he reached in his pocket and threw the medals as well. Frankly, having been there (and even if I wasn't) why would "a WWII vet and a Vietnam vet" give Kerry (in particular) their medals to throw instead of throwing them themselves? The whole point of the exercise wasn't to "give the medals back" it was to make a personal statement--witnessing, as it were. So I think that "he said" is as mild a comment as we can possible make in article space.
The second point is on the "atrocities." Kerry did not witness these personally (he's made that point himself enough times) but reported what others had said. The "testifiers" were not under oath in Winter Soldier and how much they said is truth, half-truth or outright lies remains an open question. In brief, let's qualify the statement like good little historians of the atrocities themselves (as opposed to Kerry's statements, which are transcribed under oath) to indicate that these were, and are, claims. In short, my generation of vets did good stuff, and bad stuff, and lots and lots of thankless stuff. Let's not make Wikipedia a further instrument of slander, no matter how pretty we want to Kerry to look. -- Cecropia | Talk 19:53, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I made alterations to correct two points. First the thrust of the article implies that Kerry was a leader in ending the Vietnam War. The VVAW (and particularly Kerry's testimony) did have an impact but it served mostly to put an imprimateur on anti-war protest of people who could not easily be dismissed as dirty-hippy-college-students; but the war was alreasy ready on the way out in 1971. Troop number peaked in 1968 and when Nixon took office, the disengagement began. VVAW was another "brick in the wall" so to speak. By the same token, VVAW was "effective" but not "one of the most effective." The anti-war movement was active and huge for years (the Pentagon was "levitated" in 1968, IIRC). -- Cecropia | Talk 20:09, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I removed:
First, this is a "straw man." It is not refuting material in our article. It is publishing an email not in this article and then knocking it down.
Second, nowhere does Snopes say the material is a "hoax," so that characterization is false, though in fact, if it is a hoax, that's even less reason to refer to it. Should we publish every cock-and-bull story on the internet just so we can call it a lie?
Third, and this is an aside, this is a little out of Snopes range and perhaps competence. What Kerry did or didn't do in Vietnam is not in the nature of an urban legend, and though Snopes is good at debunking alligators in your toilet doesn't mean that they are politically impartial. -- Cecropia | Talk 21:18, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
While I understand the need to remove such information as Kerry's astrological sign — due to its easy availability given his birthdate and its irrelevance — I'd like to urge everyone here not to delete everything remotely entertaining. Someone, I think it was Rex, deleted this sentence from the section on Kerry’s muffin shop:
Removing unnecessary words is important, and copyediting and proofreading are great. Wholesale removals of interesting material are not, as m:Wiki is not paper. I’ve restored. Neutrality 21:37, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In the last few minutes alone, the two of them have plunged right back in to their regular pattern of sterilizing John Kerry so that nothing (not even a link) which thay want out, stays in.
Can we get some feedback on the link [2]? It is getting placed at the end of the penultimate paragraph in section 3 (anit-war activism). I don't want to get in a petty revert war over this, but I do think the link is largely off-topic, unreliable, and POV. Update: Link is gone at the moment. Wolfman 23:00, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
OK, edits from various parties are going on at a rapid clip. I'd like to suggest that everyone follow Cecropia's example and EXPLAIN any significant changes that you make to the article on the talk page. Although the volume of this talk page may explode, I think it may help to avoid a revert war if everyone just slows down a bit and makes an effort to explain and justify any deletions or additions. older≠ wiser 22:36, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
While posting improved Ortega, update snafu lost a section. Neutrality fixed it and I reposted the new Ortega - see edit summary Rex071404 22:37, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This title is far more accurate for that section since the text there focuses mostly on Kerry's testimony and the time frame surrounding it Rex071404 22:47, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Just in case anyone was confused by the references in edit summaries to "JML's consensus version" of the paragraph about Ortega: I proposed a draft (in a comment now in the Talk archive). Rex said he liked it but would probably want to add the statement that Ortega was a Communist (inclusion of which I specifically said was wrong). There the matter rested. No one else commented, there was no poll, and the page was protected at the time so there was no Ortega-related editing. I like what I wrote (duh) but I wouldn't claim a consensus for it. JamesMLane 02:49, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
We have a problem with properly sourcing this text. Some of the previous version of our article is Doug Brinkley's wording, not always with attribution. I'd prefer to minimize the extent to which we use direct quotations, claimed to be fair use. In particular, the passage where we quoted Snopes quoting Brinkley quoting Kerry is unclear as to who's saying what. I've paraphrased some of it instead (keeping Kerry's direct quotation). Snopes quotes Brinkley extensively, so leaving in the Snopes link gives the reader access to those details. The same problem arises with regard to the Silver Star incident, and I'll try to clean up that passage unless someone beats me to it.
Furthermore, characterizing Kerry's injuries is POV, especially since we follow up the account of his tour of duty by devoting such careful attention to the criticism of his war record, including the severity of the wounds. Instead of asserting that an injury was "minor", the initial passage should just report the facts, e.g. that he was back on patrol duty the next day. The assertion that the wounds were minor, if included at all, should be attributed to his critics. JamesMLane 06:07, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As a neutral way of addressing the fact that the 1st injury was not severe, but to also avoid the contested word of "minor" I re-wrote the last sentence concerning the 1st injury, thusly: "For this injury, Kerry was awarded his first Purple Heart. As this injury was not severe, Kerry was able to return to duty the next day, conducting his regular Swift boat patrol with a bandaged arm." Rex071404 03:29, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As you point out, going back on duty the next day already implies the wound was not severe. So, you're adding that intro phrase is either (a) redundant, or (b) providing emphasis for subtle POV. Neutrality put "combat" in front of injuries in his edit. That is another example where both (a) and (b) are both true. I think the neutral policy in such cases is to act like a good copy-editor and strike the redundancy if it truly does not sacrifice any clarity. I am making this edit on the "not severe" phrase. Wolfman 04:00, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex, you keep complaining we do not talk to you about the edit. What do you think all of the above is, if not discussion? Wolfman 04:31, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I cut a sentence in the criticism section about Sec. Lehman issuing a second set of medal citations years later. It had no logical connection with the surrounding text that I could see. If anyone thinks it's important, it probably ought to go into the VVAW medal-toss X-ref. Apparently some bloggers fantasize that this shows Kerry had to get a new set of medals. The original citations by Admiral Zumwalt are now linked into the text from wikisource (where I transcribed them). Wolfman 08:43, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Without comment or discussion, and while leaving Edit Summary notations which are cryptic and falsely marked as "m" for "minor", Neutrality is at this moment, changing the entire layout of the John Kerry page. This type of non-discussd major change is precisly what precipitates revert wars and edit wars. I stongly object to his doing this. Rex071404 03:55, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You have to pick your battles Rex. You do lot's of little things I don't like, too. Moving a pic from left to right is hardly Armageddon. Maybe it renders better on his browser that way; I moved a picture yesterday for that reason. If you don't quarrel over little things, your big objections get more attention. Wolfman 04:19, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
According to Kranish, et al, p. 104 "Zumwalt decided to fly down to An Thoi to pin the Silver Star on Kerry's uniform himself." Gamaliel 03:50, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Wow, didn't realize that. Figured he was just in the area. I'll put it back. Wolfman 03:52, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Replacing "in connection with" with "charged" is awkward. I already mention what the specific charge is later on. We should try not to use the same verb that way twice.-- Neutrality 04:09, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Your last change mucked up the entire layout - please revert Rex071404 04:20, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Please take notice that there is double display of some sections!!! Rex071404 04:39, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I believe that the readers can better locate tems to read if the "books by John Kerry" and "books by other authors" are broken out bu subsection, in that order.
Any comments, please? Rex071404 05:22, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I disagree. I feel that it adds an un-necessary layer of complexity. Right now it's a simple list, easy to parse. Wolfman 05:27, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Why bother? There are only eight items, and the list is unlikely to grow beyond 10 or 12. If it does, we can deal with it then. On a related note, they should remain in alphabetical order and not chronological. Gamaliel 05:37, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As has been pointed out by others, Wikipedia is to present facts. If the facts about the injuries make it "obvious" that they weren't severe, then readers can draw that conclusion for themselves, without being spoon-fed.
Furthermore, as to Wikipedia procedure, there is no rule that says one editor can write the content as he pleases, and then all others must refrain from editing it "until the dialog is complete." In this instance, the dialog will never be complete. Everyone else will keep explaining why the correct NPOV approach is to state the facts, and Rex will keep insisting that he's right and not budging a millimeter. I'm going to delete the characterization and restrict the statement to the facts. Rex, if you think that any fact is being concealed from the reader, please explain it here, i.e., please specify any additional facts about the severity of the injury that would not be known to the reader. JamesMLane 06:14, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex's comment of 06:28, 3 Aug 2004, under "Characterizing the injuries," convinces me that arbitration is necessary. It's not that this one particular thing is so egregious; it's just the straw that broke the camel's back. Rex is a continual distraction from serious work that needs to be done. For example, the first part of section 4 needs attention -- the chronology bounces around, it has too much detail (we don't need to include that Kerry's first campaign manager is now a state representative), etc. Yet, I'm deflected from rewriting that section. Anyone who wants to give me their ideas about framing an arbitration request can leave me a message on my Talk page, but that of course will provoke another barrage, so an alternative is to email me at JamesMLane@aol.com. My current inclination is to request that Rex be banned from editing this article and the other Kerry-related articles. JamesMLane 06:46, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Things calmed down for approximately 24 hours. Snowspinner said that he had blocked someone for 24 hours (although he tactfully named no names). My guess is that he hoped this relatively mild action would produce a permanent improvement. It has not. That's one reason that, after mentioning the arbitration idea earlier (probably an archive or two ago by now), I've now concluded that no lesser measure seems likely to help. JamesMLane 07:21, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Arbitiration section has some weird doubling that I'm afraid to attempt to fix for fear of deleting something, or getting into edit conflits while doing it. Lyellin 07:58, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
It's the result of rapid fire postings. That said, I am going to take a several day, voluntary hiatus. See if you guys can think about what I am trying to fit in. Perhaps we'll be able to better communicate in a few days. Thought for the day:
Rex071404 08:06, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, section 4 of this article needs a lot of work. The chronology is confusing and the level of detail is excessive. Some of the statements are just wrong -- for example, the race in which Kerry contemplated a run against Philbin but ended up supporting Drinan, who won, was in 1970, not 1972. I've gotten partway through a substantial rewrite, which I'm adding as "Campaigning for Congress" for lack of a better title. I'm also spinning off his Senate career as a separate section. JamesMLane 08:42, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The portion of the article covering the period after VVAW has now been substantially reworked. What was section 4 (1972-date) is now sections 4 (1972-85) and 5 (1985-date, i.e., service in the Senate). The material is closer to being in chronological order. (I departed from strict chrono with a flashback to Kerry's 1970 political aspirations, and a flashforward to accommodate the subsequent history of the cookie shop, so as not to have to return to it later.) The former version had excessive detail about his 1972 campaign, but virtually nothing about his work as ADA and Lieutenant Governor. The new version is better balanced. (From the 1972 campaign, I did of course leave in the fact that his brother and campaign manager were arrested and charged with breaking and entering. A lot of what I deleted was the long Boston Globe quote with their subsequent self-serving comments on the episode.) Another change I made was to take all the information about the birth of Kerry's daughters and his separation from his wife and consolidate it in the "Family" section further down.
It's ridiculous for the history of his service in the Senate to lead with a visit to Nicaragua, so that's another section that could use some attention. JamesMLane 12:09, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I really don't want to get involved in this page because it seems like a constant edit war, but for someone courageous enough to brave the flames, it would seem appropriate (at this point) to include dates on the various headers in the text.
Someone wanting to look up various sections of John Kerry's life would have to sift through prose to find dates, whereas sections broken up by dates would facilitate this type of research. I noticed this as I was checking out the recent revisions to some of the sections that specifically deal with certain years but do not explicitly state so in their headers.
This is just a suggestion, though. =) Ieshan 13:10, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
I hate to come be cranky and authoritative again, but another piece of advice for everyone that will help keep people's editing privledges intact and keep this page unprotected.
If you feel something should be discussed more before further reversions take place, a great way to foster this is to stop reverting. Even if it's not a version you like, be the better editor and let it go for a few days while discussion takes place. It's not the end of the world, and it fosters lots of better feelings.
It takes two people to have a revert war. If you don't want a revert war, simply stop reverting, and there is no longer a revert war. Snowspinner 13:28, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
While reviewing the discussion on this page, I noticed in the Arbitration section above that JamesMLane made reference to Rex's comment of 06:28, 3 Aug 2004, under "Characterizing the injuries,", but I was not able to see that section. It appears that section was removed by Rex in this edit: [3]. I'm not sure exactly what happened, and given the quirks of edit conflicts on a page with frequent edits, I'll assume that it was done inadvertently. I have restored the text of that section to its place above the Arbitration section. older≠ wiser 13:34, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This anti-Kerry article at BushCountry.org uses this article as a reference to try and prove how terrible Kerry is. Besides finding it a little humourus, I find it a little suspisious that there was a huge edit conflict, and then as soon as the conflict was resolved, this article was released. I know it might be a little bit paranoid, but it isn't beyond belief that maybe the person pushing some of the things in this article had an agenda. Now, these are all premature accusations on my part, since I haven't been involved in the edit conflict, but I'd ask that some people who were involved please look into it. { MB | マイカル } 14:29, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
off-topic: the 'medal-pinning' caption mentions silver star twice, but not bronze. i don't know which one is being award in the pic, or i'd fix it myself. could someone who knows make the edit. thanks. done.
"a fair and well-documented biography of John F. Kerry" - BushCountry.org, August 2, 2004
Perhaps we should place that at the top of the talk page to ward off accusations of POV and bias. Gamaliel 17:20, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
JamesMLane 17:28, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've rewritten the Ortega section because it seemed fundamentally flawed to me as it didn't talk about why they went. I'm not familiar with all the ins and outs of the Nicaragua conflict so I've got no problem if someone tweaks the facts or language. Gamaliel 22:16, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This article is listed on this website [4]. The call it a fair and well-documented biography of John F. Kerry. This can bring in some new pro and anti-editors to this page Walter 14:33, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Interesting, that article is an outstanding example of the importance of NPOV. It takes many of the facts here, but includes so much POV that you'd think Kerry eats puppies for breakfast, right after he beats his wife & children. Wolfman 16:06, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"It's the reason he gets so angry when his patriotism is challenged. It was a traumatic experience that's still with him, and he went through it for his country." It affects the way Kerry lives his life every day, the source said, since "he knows he very well would not be alive today had he not taken the life of another man [he] never ever met." [5]
I clicked the link provided (hoping to specify the quoted "source"), but was unable to find the quote. (used ctrl-f search for 'patriotism'). Does anybody know the actual source of this quote?
I wonder if the reference actually belongs to a nearby paragraph, but got moved in some copyediting.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archived as of August 1, 2004. If anything else needs to be moved back out of the archives, feel free, but please be aware of the page size. Ambi 12:41, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
There was a poll in progress, so I've again taken that part of the Talk page from the archive and copied it back in here. I did not copy the lengthy "Comment" subsection from the archived poll discussion -- only the first few subsections, the ones with the votes in them. JamesMLane 08:50, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
All right now. Let's have an informal poll see if they's some way we can stop this before I go completely insane. Here's how it works. Submit what you think shoud be the content of the disputed section in a sub-talk page so we can get a rough estimate of where the consensus is. (A sub-talk page is like this: Talk:John Kerry/Sample.) Neutrality 06:15, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
( John Kerry/VVAW cross-reference)
Change in this version: The suggestion from Aaron Hill was a good idea. I've added the testimony pic from the protected article. The image of the medal and ribbon would be appropriate for the separate article that will address the medal-vs.-ribbon distinction in more detail. JamesMLane 10:23, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Here is Rex's (1st version - see 2nd below) of "VVAW": Talk:John_Kerry/Rex's_version (moved to subpage by Ambivalenthysteria for brevity)
See Rex's 3rd version below, under section titled: "1971 Meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) (Rex v.3 - How about this?)" Rex071404 15:11, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Regarding the protection: I know the page was only very recently unprotected, but judging by the number of reversions (at least five in the last hour before protection) and the accompanying edit summaries, I thought things were rapidly heading downhill with no end to the reversions in sight. I especially want to bring to attention this illuminating edit summary by Rex071404:
To Rex: Please understand that charges of vandalism and sockpuppetry are serious accusations and should not be bandied about lightly. This sort of language violates both wikiquette and the civility rule. So please, for the sake of everyone concerned (including yourself), try to keep the slander and histrionics to a minimum (preferably zero). Thanks for your consideration. -- Hadal 07:41, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've been away for 36 hours, and it's disappointing to see that things have gone rapidly downhill. For starters, this page should never have been unprotected at the point it was at. Another 48 hours, and things might have been different.
That said, I believe the vote above was straightforward enough that it's safe to say that Rex went against consensus by adding in his own version. That was unacceptable, as it is not his place to decide that he is allowed to ignore certain people's votes. However, I think it also highlights just how bad a mess much of this article is. Looking at this edit by Rex, he's added in two sections which seem to me to be a) somewhat poorly written, and b) still with something of an anti-Kerry POV. On the other hand, he's left in a general section about VVAW which is just as POV - in the opposite direction.
I think we should bring in a mediator - quickly - and go through this article, section by section. Much of the sections about Kerry's ancestry, childhood and military career needs condensing. Large pieces need NPOVing (as they're either pro-or-anti-Kerry), and other pieces are just badly worded. And we have other details which are completely pointless - who cares what book he read during the 2003 campaign? If we move quickly, I think we could get this up to a much better standard within a couple of weeks - and well ahead of the immediate prelude to the election, when the article is likely to be receiving most hits.
Finally, in the meantime, I suggest that all of us protagonists in this dispute come to an agreement not to edit the article while the dispute is ongoing, so that the article can be unprotected. Thus, we could treat it as if it were protected, without having it appear that way to outside contributors - and making Wikipedia as a whole look bad. Ambi 10:06, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I suggest this:
Armed with this framework, I am pretty sure we can re-do the page to something we all will accept. Rex071404 17:59, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The fact that the non-"positive" links keep getting removed, regardless of where they are placed, makes me leery of yielding on this issue. The ABC News and NY Sun links deserve to be on the main page. At lot of much less germane information is. To keep these out, in light of what's allowed in, is too much POV. Rex071404 03:39, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The page has been unprotected, because protected pages are bad, especially when they're on pages that have information that changes significantly and rapidly, as current major Presidential candidates do. Note that continued edit warring on this page will be frowned upon, and may lead to users being blocked for disruption of Wikipedia. Snowspinner 19:05, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)
I should know better than to edit in this war zone, but there are a few changes I just made which shouldn't be controversial.
The article mentions Kerry's ribbons and the "two medals" without ever mentioning why this is a point. Never mind that ribbons-medals has been a point of controversy for years. Even never mind that Kerry has claimed to have thrown more than "two" medals. The only source we have for the origin of the two medals Kerry said he threw is Kerry himself. He said that one WWII veteran and one Vietnam veteran each gave him a medal or medals, that he put them in his (shirt, IIRC) pocket and when it was time for him to throw his ribbons, he reached in his pocket and threw the medals as well. Frankly, having been there (and even if I wasn't) why would "a WWII vet and a Vietnam vet" give Kerry (in particular) their medals to throw instead of throwing them themselves? The whole point of the exercise wasn't to "give the medals back" it was to make a personal statement--witnessing, as it were. So I think that "he said" is as mild a comment as we can possible make in article space.
The second point is on the "atrocities." Kerry did not witness these personally (he's made that point himself enough times) but reported what others had said. The "testifiers" were not under oath in Winter Soldier and how much they said is truth, half-truth or outright lies remains an open question. In brief, let's qualify the statement like good little historians of the atrocities themselves (as opposed to Kerry's statements, which are transcribed under oath) to indicate that these were, and are, claims. In short, my generation of vets did good stuff, and bad stuff, and lots and lots of thankless stuff. Let's not make Wikipedia a further instrument of slander, no matter how pretty we want to Kerry to look. -- Cecropia | Talk 19:53, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I made alterations to correct two points. First the thrust of the article implies that Kerry was a leader in ending the Vietnam War. The VVAW (and particularly Kerry's testimony) did have an impact but it served mostly to put an imprimateur on anti-war protest of people who could not easily be dismissed as dirty-hippy-college-students; but the war was alreasy ready on the way out in 1971. Troop number peaked in 1968 and when Nixon took office, the disengagement began. VVAW was another "brick in the wall" so to speak. By the same token, VVAW was "effective" but not "one of the most effective." The anti-war movement was active and huge for years (the Pentagon was "levitated" in 1968, IIRC). -- Cecropia | Talk 20:09, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I removed:
First, this is a "straw man." It is not refuting material in our article. It is publishing an email not in this article and then knocking it down.
Second, nowhere does Snopes say the material is a "hoax," so that characterization is false, though in fact, if it is a hoax, that's even less reason to refer to it. Should we publish every cock-and-bull story on the internet just so we can call it a lie?
Third, and this is an aside, this is a little out of Snopes range and perhaps competence. What Kerry did or didn't do in Vietnam is not in the nature of an urban legend, and though Snopes is good at debunking alligators in your toilet doesn't mean that they are politically impartial. -- Cecropia | Talk 21:18, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
While I understand the need to remove such information as Kerry's astrological sign — due to its easy availability given his birthdate and its irrelevance — I'd like to urge everyone here not to delete everything remotely entertaining. Someone, I think it was Rex, deleted this sentence from the section on Kerry’s muffin shop:
Removing unnecessary words is important, and copyediting and proofreading are great. Wholesale removals of interesting material are not, as m:Wiki is not paper. I’ve restored. Neutrality 21:37, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In the last few minutes alone, the two of them have plunged right back in to their regular pattern of sterilizing John Kerry so that nothing (not even a link) which thay want out, stays in.
Can we get some feedback on the link [2]? It is getting placed at the end of the penultimate paragraph in section 3 (anit-war activism). I don't want to get in a petty revert war over this, but I do think the link is largely off-topic, unreliable, and POV. Update: Link is gone at the moment. Wolfman 23:00, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
OK, edits from various parties are going on at a rapid clip. I'd like to suggest that everyone follow Cecropia's example and EXPLAIN any significant changes that you make to the article on the talk page. Although the volume of this talk page may explode, I think it may help to avoid a revert war if everyone just slows down a bit and makes an effort to explain and justify any deletions or additions. older≠ wiser 22:36, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
While posting improved Ortega, update snafu lost a section. Neutrality fixed it and I reposted the new Ortega - see edit summary Rex071404 22:37, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This title is far more accurate for that section since the text there focuses mostly on Kerry's testimony and the time frame surrounding it Rex071404 22:47, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Just in case anyone was confused by the references in edit summaries to "JML's consensus version" of the paragraph about Ortega: I proposed a draft (in a comment now in the Talk archive). Rex said he liked it but would probably want to add the statement that Ortega was a Communist (inclusion of which I specifically said was wrong). There the matter rested. No one else commented, there was no poll, and the page was protected at the time so there was no Ortega-related editing. I like what I wrote (duh) but I wouldn't claim a consensus for it. JamesMLane 02:49, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
We have a problem with properly sourcing this text. Some of the previous version of our article is Doug Brinkley's wording, not always with attribution. I'd prefer to minimize the extent to which we use direct quotations, claimed to be fair use. In particular, the passage where we quoted Snopes quoting Brinkley quoting Kerry is unclear as to who's saying what. I've paraphrased some of it instead (keeping Kerry's direct quotation). Snopes quotes Brinkley extensively, so leaving in the Snopes link gives the reader access to those details. The same problem arises with regard to the Silver Star incident, and I'll try to clean up that passage unless someone beats me to it.
Furthermore, characterizing Kerry's injuries is POV, especially since we follow up the account of his tour of duty by devoting such careful attention to the criticism of his war record, including the severity of the wounds. Instead of asserting that an injury was "minor", the initial passage should just report the facts, e.g. that he was back on patrol duty the next day. The assertion that the wounds were minor, if included at all, should be attributed to his critics. JamesMLane 06:07, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As a neutral way of addressing the fact that the 1st injury was not severe, but to also avoid the contested word of "minor" I re-wrote the last sentence concerning the 1st injury, thusly: "For this injury, Kerry was awarded his first Purple Heart. As this injury was not severe, Kerry was able to return to duty the next day, conducting his regular Swift boat patrol with a bandaged arm." Rex071404 03:29, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As you point out, going back on duty the next day already implies the wound was not severe. So, you're adding that intro phrase is either (a) redundant, or (b) providing emphasis for subtle POV. Neutrality put "combat" in front of injuries in his edit. That is another example where both (a) and (b) are both true. I think the neutral policy in such cases is to act like a good copy-editor and strike the redundancy if it truly does not sacrifice any clarity. I am making this edit on the "not severe" phrase. Wolfman 04:00, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex, you keep complaining we do not talk to you about the edit. What do you think all of the above is, if not discussion? Wolfman 04:31, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I cut a sentence in the criticism section about Sec. Lehman issuing a second set of medal citations years later. It had no logical connection with the surrounding text that I could see. If anyone thinks it's important, it probably ought to go into the VVAW medal-toss X-ref. Apparently some bloggers fantasize that this shows Kerry had to get a new set of medals. The original citations by Admiral Zumwalt are now linked into the text from wikisource (where I transcribed them). Wolfman 08:43, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Without comment or discussion, and while leaving Edit Summary notations which are cryptic and falsely marked as "m" for "minor", Neutrality is at this moment, changing the entire layout of the John Kerry page. This type of non-discussd major change is precisly what precipitates revert wars and edit wars. I stongly object to his doing this. Rex071404 03:55, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You have to pick your battles Rex. You do lot's of little things I don't like, too. Moving a pic from left to right is hardly Armageddon. Maybe it renders better on his browser that way; I moved a picture yesterday for that reason. If you don't quarrel over little things, your big objections get more attention. Wolfman 04:19, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
According to Kranish, et al, p. 104 "Zumwalt decided to fly down to An Thoi to pin the Silver Star on Kerry's uniform himself." Gamaliel 03:50, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Wow, didn't realize that. Figured he was just in the area. I'll put it back. Wolfman 03:52, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Replacing "in connection with" with "charged" is awkward. I already mention what the specific charge is later on. We should try not to use the same verb that way twice.-- Neutrality 04:09, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Your last change mucked up the entire layout - please revert Rex071404 04:20, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Please take notice that there is double display of some sections!!! Rex071404 04:39, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I believe that the readers can better locate tems to read if the "books by John Kerry" and "books by other authors" are broken out bu subsection, in that order.
Any comments, please? Rex071404 05:22, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I disagree. I feel that it adds an un-necessary layer of complexity. Right now it's a simple list, easy to parse. Wolfman 05:27, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Why bother? There are only eight items, and the list is unlikely to grow beyond 10 or 12. If it does, we can deal with it then. On a related note, they should remain in alphabetical order and not chronological. Gamaliel 05:37, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As has been pointed out by others, Wikipedia is to present facts. If the facts about the injuries make it "obvious" that they weren't severe, then readers can draw that conclusion for themselves, without being spoon-fed.
Furthermore, as to Wikipedia procedure, there is no rule that says one editor can write the content as he pleases, and then all others must refrain from editing it "until the dialog is complete." In this instance, the dialog will never be complete. Everyone else will keep explaining why the correct NPOV approach is to state the facts, and Rex will keep insisting that he's right and not budging a millimeter. I'm going to delete the characterization and restrict the statement to the facts. Rex, if you think that any fact is being concealed from the reader, please explain it here, i.e., please specify any additional facts about the severity of the injury that would not be known to the reader. JamesMLane 06:14, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex's comment of 06:28, 3 Aug 2004, under "Characterizing the injuries," convinces me that arbitration is necessary. It's not that this one particular thing is so egregious; it's just the straw that broke the camel's back. Rex is a continual distraction from serious work that needs to be done. For example, the first part of section 4 needs attention -- the chronology bounces around, it has too much detail (we don't need to include that Kerry's first campaign manager is now a state representative), etc. Yet, I'm deflected from rewriting that section. Anyone who wants to give me their ideas about framing an arbitration request can leave me a message on my Talk page, but that of course will provoke another barrage, so an alternative is to email me at JamesMLane@aol.com. My current inclination is to request that Rex be banned from editing this article and the other Kerry-related articles. JamesMLane 06:46, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Things calmed down for approximately 24 hours. Snowspinner said that he had blocked someone for 24 hours (although he tactfully named no names). My guess is that he hoped this relatively mild action would produce a permanent improvement. It has not. That's one reason that, after mentioning the arbitration idea earlier (probably an archive or two ago by now), I've now concluded that no lesser measure seems likely to help. JamesMLane 07:21, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Arbitiration section has some weird doubling that I'm afraid to attempt to fix for fear of deleting something, or getting into edit conflits while doing it. Lyellin 07:58, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
It's the result of rapid fire postings. That said, I am going to take a several day, voluntary hiatus. See if you guys can think about what I am trying to fit in. Perhaps we'll be able to better communicate in a few days. Thought for the day:
Rex071404 08:06, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, section 4 of this article needs a lot of work. The chronology is confusing and the level of detail is excessive. Some of the statements are just wrong -- for example, the race in which Kerry contemplated a run against Philbin but ended up supporting Drinan, who won, was in 1970, not 1972. I've gotten partway through a substantial rewrite, which I'm adding as "Campaigning for Congress" for lack of a better title. I'm also spinning off his Senate career as a separate section. JamesMLane 08:42, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The portion of the article covering the period after VVAW has now been substantially reworked. What was section 4 (1972-date) is now sections 4 (1972-85) and 5 (1985-date, i.e., service in the Senate). The material is closer to being in chronological order. (I departed from strict chrono with a flashback to Kerry's 1970 political aspirations, and a flashforward to accommodate the subsequent history of the cookie shop, so as not to have to return to it later.) The former version had excessive detail about his 1972 campaign, but virtually nothing about his work as ADA and Lieutenant Governor. The new version is better balanced. (From the 1972 campaign, I did of course leave in the fact that his brother and campaign manager were arrested and charged with breaking and entering. A lot of what I deleted was the long Boston Globe quote with their subsequent self-serving comments on the episode.) Another change I made was to take all the information about the birth of Kerry's daughters and his separation from his wife and consolidate it in the "Family" section further down.
It's ridiculous for the history of his service in the Senate to lead with a visit to Nicaragua, so that's another section that could use some attention. JamesMLane 12:09, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I really don't want to get involved in this page because it seems like a constant edit war, but for someone courageous enough to brave the flames, it would seem appropriate (at this point) to include dates on the various headers in the text.
Someone wanting to look up various sections of John Kerry's life would have to sift through prose to find dates, whereas sections broken up by dates would facilitate this type of research. I noticed this as I was checking out the recent revisions to some of the sections that specifically deal with certain years but do not explicitly state so in their headers.
This is just a suggestion, though. =) Ieshan 13:10, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
I hate to come be cranky and authoritative again, but another piece of advice for everyone that will help keep people's editing privledges intact and keep this page unprotected.
If you feel something should be discussed more before further reversions take place, a great way to foster this is to stop reverting. Even if it's not a version you like, be the better editor and let it go for a few days while discussion takes place. It's not the end of the world, and it fosters lots of better feelings.
It takes two people to have a revert war. If you don't want a revert war, simply stop reverting, and there is no longer a revert war. Snowspinner 13:28, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
While reviewing the discussion on this page, I noticed in the Arbitration section above that JamesMLane made reference to Rex's comment of 06:28, 3 Aug 2004, under "Characterizing the injuries,", but I was not able to see that section. It appears that section was removed by Rex in this edit: [3]. I'm not sure exactly what happened, and given the quirks of edit conflicts on a page with frequent edits, I'll assume that it was done inadvertently. I have restored the text of that section to its place above the Arbitration section. older≠ wiser 13:34, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This anti-Kerry article at BushCountry.org uses this article as a reference to try and prove how terrible Kerry is. Besides finding it a little humourus, I find it a little suspisious that there was a huge edit conflict, and then as soon as the conflict was resolved, this article was released. I know it might be a little bit paranoid, but it isn't beyond belief that maybe the person pushing some of the things in this article had an agenda. Now, these are all premature accusations on my part, since I haven't been involved in the edit conflict, but I'd ask that some people who were involved please look into it. { MB | マイカル } 14:29, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
off-topic: the 'medal-pinning' caption mentions silver star twice, but not bronze. i don't know which one is being award in the pic, or i'd fix it myself. could someone who knows make the edit. thanks. done.
"a fair and well-documented biography of John F. Kerry" - BushCountry.org, August 2, 2004
Perhaps we should place that at the top of the talk page to ward off accusations of POV and bias. Gamaliel 17:20, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
JamesMLane 17:28, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've rewritten the Ortega section because it seemed fundamentally flawed to me as it didn't talk about why they went. I'm not familiar with all the ins and outs of the Nicaragua conflict so I've got no problem if someone tweaks the facts or language. Gamaliel 22:16, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This article is listed on this website [4]. The call it a fair and well-documented biography of John F. Kerry. This can bring in some new pro and anti-editors to this page Walter 14:33, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Interesting, that article is an outstanding example of the importance of NPOV. It takes many of the facts here, but includes so much POV that you'd think Kerry eats puppies for breakfast, right after he beats his wife & children. Wolfman 16:06, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"It's the reason he gets so angry when his patriotism is challenged. It was a traumatic experience that's still with him, and he went through it for his country." It affects the way Kerry lives his life every day, the source said, since "he knows he very well would not be alive today had he not taken the life of another man [he] never ever met." [5]
I clicked the link provided (hoping to specify the quoted "source"), but was unable to find the quote. (used ctrl-f search for 'patriotism'). Does anybody know the actual source of this quote?
I wonder if the reference actually belongs to a nearby paragraph, but got moved in some copyediting.