![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
New archive added 08.11.04 Rex071404 01:15, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've archived everything up to the 5th, b/c this was just getting too long. Feel free to refer to items in the archive if you like, but it appears most of the things there have been resolve, I hope. — マイケル ₪ 17:54, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)
Until Rex showed up today, our account of the 1972 campaign incident reported the facts: “Kerry's younger brother Cameron and campaign field director Thomas J. Vallely, both then 22 years old, were found in the basement, where telephone lines were located. They were arrested and charged with "breaking and entering with the intent to commit grand larceny," but the case was dismissed about a year later by superior court.” When I checked the history today, it so happened that, of Rex’s 30 or so edits, the first one that I noticed was one that changed the first sentence to: “Kerry's younger brother Cameron and campaign field director Thomas J. Vallely, both then 22 years old, broke in and entered the basement of that building, near where telephone lines were located.”
We have no basis for judging them to be guilty. The case was dismissed by the court. If it’s “obvious” that they were guilty from the facts that they were found there, that they were arrested and charged, and that they now look back and say what they did was foolish, well, fine, all those facts are in the version that’s been in place for days now. The readers can draw whatever conclusions they please. They don’t need any of us step in to make up for failings of the legal system by inserting the conclusion that the defendants actually were guilty. Because no significant facts have been presented other than those that were in our prior version, I’ll be changing it back, after I look over the rest of the page to see what other POV edits have been added. JamesMLane 21:54, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You state as an established fact that they "broke in and entered." The known fact is what was in the prior version: "They were arrested and charged with 'breaking and entering with the intent to commit grand larceny'...." You claim that your rewrite "was to emphasize with clarity, precisly what they were arrested for." The old version quoted the charge verbatim. It's hard to be more precise than that. What your rewrite adds is that the statement that they committed the acts with which they were charged. I recognize that a dismissal is not an adjudication on the merits, establishing their innocence, but still less is it an adjudication on the merits establishing their guilt. (Feel free to confirm that point with your legal team.) If you think guilt is the more probable conclusion on the stated facts, you're free to hold that opinion, and you're free to post anything you please on your web site, but your opinion has no place in a neutral article. JamesMLane 23:20, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex, you write: These facts together, clearly support the statement "broke in and entered". The version of the article before you edited it gave the facts. You still haven't explained what's wrong with giving the facts and stopping there. If the facts clearly support a particular statement, as you contend, then it will be clear to the readers, without our having to spoon-feed them the conclusion that you favor. No facts are being suppressed in the version that we had for several days and that you suddenly changed. All you want to do is to assert as a fact that they did what they were charged with, thus getting in the juicy reference to breaking and entering twice, presumably because your POV is that it should be emphasized. The NPOV approach is for us to give the significant facts. There was a version as of a couple weeks ago that devoted too much space to quoting Thomas Vallely and Cameron Kelly, and I was the one who shortened it to take out most of their self-serving statements. Their point of view deserves to be reported, once, but we don't need to hit the readers over the head with it. The same is true of the charges against them. The version you changed gave all the significant facts and was suitably NPOV without unduly emphasizing any one point. You've shown no defect in that version. JamesMLane 02:05, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I’ve restored the strictly factual language about the break-in. Some other points:
This text here:
"John Kerry's maternal grandmother, Margaret Tyndal Winthrop, came from a family with deep roots in Massachusetts history, and was raised in Boston. Her grandfather was Robert Charles Winthrop, the conservative Whig Speaker of the House and a senator, and her ancestors include James Bowdoin, former governor of Maine, and John Winthrop, the first governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Other notable figures in this branch of Kerry's family tree are Franklin D. Roosevelt (4th cousin twice removed), Jane Addams, Calvin Coolidge (8th cousin once removed), and ironically, George H.W. Bush (9th cousin once removed), and George W. Bush (9th cousin, twice removed). [4]",
was just now deleted by an anonymous user. To maintain the continuity of the discussion on this page, I reverted that deletion and am asking for comment. I agree with the anonymous user and am asking for consensus that the above text be deleted as superfluous and too minutiae oriented. Please comment on this. Rex071404 00:20, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Here is the link
It's from New York Times, Published: February 15, 2004. "Kerry's Brother Helps Make the Big Calls"
Here is the excerpt where the fact of the break-in having occured is reported:
JamesMLane, please be candid enough to admit you are wrong on this point. I have given you a careful and correct explanation and I have provided a verfied corroboration from New York Times. I am restoring my edits on that section and I ask that you leave them alone this time. Thank you Rex071404 04:54, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In any case, you are using a literal reading of the NYT to make an argument for a specific conclusion. That's not what Wikipedia is about. older≠ wiser 15:35, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
If you agree that your sources are of lesser veracity, then I see no reason you should point them out - they do not help you make your point. Also, when you say "paraphrase" you are in error. This sentence "he and an associate broke into the building where the phone lines were housed" is not a paraphase. Rather it is a 1st hand report of a fact. That is how reporters report news. They state facts. A news report need not pend itself, held back until a culprit says something like this: "Yes indeed, I broke into the basement". It's axoimatic that culprits softplay their mis-steps....
Here is what we know so far:
"It was obviously not the smart way to do it," Mr. Kerry said.
Are you suggesting that Cameron was arrested after NOT breaking into the building? Are you suggesting that the charges were utterly groundless? If so, ask yourself, why is that fact not in the NYT article?
Try as certain people may, there is no way to argue or rationalize away the truth here: 1) Cameron Kerry was arrested. 2) Cameron Kerry did break into the building.
The only open question is whether or not he was intending to commit Grand Larceny. And since nothing I have read brings a reasonable level of proof to that, I have left out any inference that he did intend Grand Larceny. On the other hand, simply because the aim of the break-in may not have been criminally intended, does not mean that the break-in did not occcur.
Please read my post above where I link to Mens Rea and explain in more detail. Rex071404 16:43, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex, the following edit summary by you is one small example of your near-total misunderstanding of the Wikipedia process: “Link style Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is consistent with VVAW pointer to sub page method - do not change this link format again prior to full discussion - Thank you!” I'm going to analyze this particular issue in more detail than it deserves, because I think it illustrates a larger point.
You do this over and over. You feel free to make any changes you want, but anyone else who makes a change is a “vandal” if you don’t like the change and it was done “prior to full discussion”. I have nothing against “full discussion”, but it seems that you don't think a discussion is finished until you've agreed -- which you almost never do.
This one tiny point about the basics of Wikipedia linking policy has taken up an absurd amount of time already, thanks to you. Here’s the actual history. I was the first to suggest the current framework, in this edit on the Talk page, in which I wrote in part:
Mbecker and Wolfman agreed, and Gamaliel had previously endorsed a change along these lines, so that change was made. You apparently weren’t online at the time, but there’s no rule that every proposed change has to wait 24 or 48 hours so that everyone can comment on it. You were online sometime thereafter, when you made this revert (among others) to try to reinstate the plug (including cover photo) for the book attacking Kerry. (I note in passing that your edit summary there – “I was the one who originally posted this .jpg here some time ago - this should not have been moved” – is one of many suggesting that you feel some sort of ownership over the article, especially over changes you make, such that no one else is allowed to change anything you’ve added. Get it through your head, there is no such ownership on Wikipedia.)
Anyway, as to the link question, the immediate point is that you made multiple edits, including edits to this very section, without changing the SBVT link. Wolfman and I had both followed normal Wiki style for links, and that’s how it appeared in the article. It was only several hours later that you began the string of edits in which you repeatedly changed the normal Wiki style to one that suited you better, apparently because you really really liked that particular link and you wanted to urge readers to follow it.
I hope you see the point here. You yourself changed the link format “prior to full discussion.” In fact, no one else has agreed with you that there’s any reason to depart from normal linking style here. Nevertheless, you insist that your preference must govern, trumping everyone else’s, pending “full discussion.”
The specific issue of setting up this one link incorrectly isn’t of any great intrinsic importance. I’ve detailed it to try to make you see that the practical effect of your style is that you're demanding enormous special privileges. If everyone acted the way you’ve been acting, the Wikipedia project would become utterly impossible.
The patient and sincere explanations you’ve gotten haven’t helped. The multiple warnings you’ve gotten haven’t helped. The 24-hour block you got hasn’t helped. The Request for Comment hasn’t helped. The Request for Mediation hasn’t helped. The threat of a Request for Arbitration hasn’t helped. The actual commencement of a Request for Arbitration hasn’t helped. If we assume good faith, then we can only conclude that you’re temperamentally incapable of participating in a collaborative editing project. From now on, I won't be able to waste any more of my time trying to teach you anything. My further comments on your editing style will be given in the course of the Arbitration Committee proceeding instead of cluttering up this page. JamesMLane 07:10, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I put the comment here for two reasons. First, most of it is a very detailed analysis of one particular passage in the article, one where Rex has already made multiple edits and reverts to try to insert his POV enthusiasm for the SBVT attacks. I don't see how he can demand "do not change this link format again prior to full discussion" and then object when someone engages in that "full discussion". Second, to the extent the comment goes beyond the specific issue of the reference to SBVT, it was my thought that some people might see it here who wouldn't see it if it were on Rex's Talk page, and that any resulting discussion could be useful in improving how everyone approaches editing this highly controversial article. Rex's response convinces me that the latter point was an exercise in foolish optimism on my part, which I will now abandon.
Accordingly, I'm going to extract the portion that's about the SBVT edit, and which responds to Rex's edit summary, and enter that much as a separate comment under "Link to SBVT sub-page" above. After that, Rex, if you want to move the full comment to your Talk page, feel free. Please recognize, however, that the dispute about the SBVT link is not an isolated incident. It's part of your continuing pattern. I don't want to take the time and the space to go into this much detail about each and every one of your comments or edit summaries that I disagree with. I don't think the Talk page is enhanced when people endlessly repeat themselves. Therefore, whether you move this specific text or not, please consider it to be implicit in many of my future comments here. JamesMLane 19:08, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The "perjury" was originally put in by me, then edited out by others. I did not rv, as I am currently unsure of the exact criminal charge which he was convicted of, had overturned on appeal and was later pardoned for. The exact charge may not have been "perjury" Rex071404 16:51, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In regards to those who won't concede that Cameron Kerry did in fact engage in a break-in as reported by the New York Times here.
(Since
older has stated that he will not respond - I have moved his comment lower down the page in order to make room for the comments of those who will respond.)
Rex071404 19:13, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I am not going to bother to repsond to your irrelevant leading questions above. To respond to points you made in the section above: you are relying on a casual paraphrase in the NYT as proof positive to support your position. That is what I call speculative argumentation. You say "I have addressed each and every point you have raised and have fully rebutted them all" and I reject this--you have not "fully rebutted" anything. You are the only person arguing for your version. Do we really have to put such triviality to a vote? older≠ wiser 19:10, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I am of the view that attributing so many statements to Elliot, in light of the fact that Elliot's actual views are now at the center of controversy in the press, needlessly injects a POV controversy into the article. The way I see it, virtually every statement being attributed to Elliot ought to come with a disclaimer concerning the current state of his views. At the very least, too much of Elliot sounding supportive of Kerry tells only 1/2 the story. I'd like to see this toned down.
In particular, I feel that this sentence: Elliott submitted Kerry for a Silver Star, about which he later said he had no "regrets or second thoughts", in light of the current SBVT controversy is especially misleading to the readers. Any thoughts? Rex071404 03:20, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
(does anyone know what these new facts are)
I think readers would like a NPOV on Kerry's voting record while in the Senate. As it stands, the Senate Years section is pretty sparse. And I find that a politician's voting record is more important than the campaign promises they make. Hopefully this can all be done in a Neutral Point Of View highlighting key issues and important legislation. A quick Google, I found The Orlando Report which looks too have a decent unbiased summary that can be used to further investigate the named legislation thus therein; and the article's catergorization of key issues looks like a good foundation for starting Wikipedia's own.
For further research help I Googled a site called OnTheIssues which looks like a progressive watchdog organization and has lists of politicians' stances and actions on different issues, many of which are sourced.
And there are the prominent special interest groups, like the NRA, ACLU, and the Sierra Club, who keep track of politicians' voting records over legislation that concerns each of their special interests.
It's just a start, I'd like to see the Senate section improved. Maybe somebody will get around to doing it.-- Mt2131 03:26, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Most Americans understand that we were fighting Viet Cong and/or NVA soldiers during the Vietnam war. I have read very view books which use the term NLF. I think we will lose our American readers if we completely omit the term "Viet Cong". Rex071404 03:52, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In order to head off any edit / revert wars or other SNAFUs regarding the "Elliott Quotation", provided we make a clear pointer link which says "see < sub-page name > for a full discussion.", I would support moving all this text (see below) to a sub page. Moving this text, would make Kerry's tour of duty / injury section more concise and would prevent tarring Kerry's main page with yet more controversy. Here is text for proposed move; Rex071404 13:39, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC):
The details surrounding Kerry's Silver Star award have recently become somewhat controversial. In June 2003, Elliott was quoted as saying the award was "well deserved" and that he had "no regrets or second thoughts at all about that." [9] More recently however, in August 2004, Elliott signed an affidavit stating "Had I known the facts, I would not have recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for simply pursuing and dispatching a single wounded, fleeing Viet Cong" [10]. This August affidavit was released in support of his July 2004 affidavit which stated in part "When Kerry came back to the United States, he lied about what occured in Vietnam...". It was after the release of this 1st affidavit, that Michael Kranish, of the Boston Globe quoted Elliott as having said "It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here ... I knew it was wrong ..In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake." [11]. It was the release of these two affidavits and Elliott's contention that the Globe reporter substantially misquoted him which resulted in controversy. While there has been contention from some Kerry supporters that Elliott's story has changed as the 2004 presidential race has evolved, for the most part, neither the Kerry nor Bush camps have commented on or paid attention to these Elliott comments or the press reports about them.
In one of his few public comments about his Silver Star, made sometime before this controversy, Kerry said, "It is a matter of record, what I did in Vietnam. And over the months that I was in combat, yes, we know that we were responsible for the loss of enemy lives. But that's war."
Said a Kerry supporter: "It's the reason he gets so angry when his patriotism is challenged. It was a traumatic experience that's still with him, and he went through it for his country." It affects the way Kerry lives his life every day, the source said, since "he knows he very well would not be alive today had he not taken the life of another man [he] never ever met." [12]
Earlier today, I corrected an edit made by Neutrality (see above). Just now, without querying the group and without any explaination beyond an edit summary which stated "factual inaccuracy", Neutrality reverted me.
Now, as the regulars on this page know, up until a few days ago, I was not careful enough to avoid being embroiled in edit / revert wars. However, I am trying to be careful now and to that end, I am asking the group to review this situation and comment.
I ask you to pay particular attention the the recent comment made by Cecropia on JamesMLane's talk page: "But I am concerned about the revert wars and the general attitude. I am trying to put across the idea that Rex is A problem, but he is not THE problem. The problem is a few editors (including but not limited to Rex) who think that everything in the article has to pass their muster or it gets summarily reverted."
I would like to be able to participate in this Wiki as a peer, without being singled out by certain editors, who revert me without discussion. I am particularly concerned about Neutrality's past and ongoing efforts along those lines. In fact, I feel that if Neutrality would stop doing this to me, I would feel more welcome here.
Even though I strongly disagree with Neutrality's action against my edit and even though I stongly believe that his edit summary is not well-founded, I'm holding any re-edits on "Elliott" in abeyance until later today or tommorrow so as to give the group time to respond.
Please add your comments ASAP. Rex071404 14:42, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This was not mere "correcting". Rather is was a wholesale reversion and multiple edits by Neutrality that blantantly mis-characterize my edits (which do contain accurate facts and accurate timeline and correct, on-point links) as being a "factual inaccuracy". Even so, as I have other things to attend to today and because I want to hear from the group, I will not comment on this again until tommorrow. Rex071404 14:57, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
New archive added 08.11.04 Rex071404 01:15, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've archived everything up to the 5th, b/c this was just getting too long. Feel free to refer to items in the archive if you like, but it appears most of the things there have been resolve, I hope. — マイケル ₪ 17:54, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)
Until Rex showed up today, our account of the 1972 campaign incident reported the facts: “Kerry's younger brother Cameron and campaign field director Thomas J. Vallely, both then 22 years old, were found in the basement, where telephone lines were located. They were arrested and charged with "breaking and entering with the intent to commit grand larceny," but the case was dismissed about a year later by superior court.” When I checked the history today, it so happened that, of Rex’s 30 or so edits, the first one that I noticed was one that changed the first sentence to: “Kerry's younger brother Cameron and campaign field director Thomas J. Vallely, both then 22 years old, broke in and entered the basement of that building, near where telephone lines were located.”
We have no basis for judging them to be guilty. The case was dismissed by the court. If it’s “obvious” that they were guilty from the facts that they were found there, that they were arrested and charged, and that they now look back and say what they did was foolish, well, fine, all those facts are in the version that’s been in place for days now. The readers can draw whatever conclusions they please. They don’t need any of us step in to make up for failings of the legal system by inserting the conclusion that the defendants actually were guilty. Because no significant facts have been presented other than those that were in our prior version, I’ll be changing it back, after I look over the rest of the page to see what other POV edits have been added. JamesMLane 21:54, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You state as an established fact that they "broke in and entered." The known fact is what was in the prior version: "They were arrested and charged with 'breaking and entering with the intent to commit grand larceny'...." You claim that your rewrite "was to emphasize with clarity, precisly what they were arrested for." The old version quoted the charge verbatim. It's hard to be more precise than that. What your rewrite adds is that the statement that they committed the acts with which they were charged. I recognize that a dismissal is not an adjudication on the merits, establishing their innocence, but still less is it an adjudication on the merits establishing their guilt. (Feel free to confirm that point with your legal team.) If you think guilt is the more probable conclusion on the stated facts, you're free to hold that opinion, and you're free to post anything you please on your web site, but your opinion has no place in a neutral article. JamesMLane 23:20, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex, you write: These facts together, clearly support the statement "broke in and entered". The version of the article before you edited it gave the facts. You still haven't explained what's wrong with giving the facts and stopping there. If the facts clearly support a particular statement, as you contend, then it will be clear to the readers, without our having to spoon-feed them the conclusion that you favor. No facts are being suppressed in the version that we had for several days and that you suddenly changed. All you want to do is to assert as a fact that they did what they were charged with, thus getting in the juicy reference to breaking and entering twice, presumably because your POV is that it should be emphasized. The NPOV approach is for us to give the significant facts. There was a version as of a couple weeks ago that devoted too much space to quoting Thomas Vallely and Cameron Kelly, and I was the one who shortened it to take out most of their self-serving statements. Their point of view deserves to be reported, once, but we don't need to hit the readers over the head with it. The same is true of the charges against them. The version you changed gave all the significant facts and was suitably NPOV without unduly emphasizing any one point. You've shown no defect in that version. JamesMLane 02:05, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I’ve restored the strictly factual language about the break-in. Some other points:
This text here:
"John Kerry's maternal grandmother, Margaret Tyndal Winthrop, came from a family with deep roots in Massachusetts history, and was raised in Boston. Her grandfather was Robert Charles Winthrop, the conservative Whig Speaker of the House and a senator, and her ancestors include James Bowdoin, former governor of Maine, and John Winthrop, the first governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Other notable figures in this branch of Kerry's family tree are Franklin D. Roosevelt (4th cousin twice removed), Jane Addams, Calvin Coolidge (8th cousin once removed), and ironically, George H.W. Bush (9th cousin once removed), and George W. Bush (9th cousin, twice removed). [4]",
was just now deleted by an anonymous user. To maintain the continuity of the discussion on this page, I reverted that deletion and am asking for comment. I agree with the anonymous user and am asking for consensus that the above text be deleted as superfluous and too minutiae oriented. Please comment on this. Rex071404 00:20, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Here is the link
It's from New York Times, Published: February 15, 2004. "Kerry's Brother Helps Make the Big Calls"
Here is the excerpt where the fact of the break-in having occured is reported:
JamesMLane, please be candid enough to admit you are wrong on this point. I have given you a careful and correct explanation and I have provided a verfied corroboration from New York Times. I am restoring my edits on that section and I ask that you leave them alone this time. Thank you Rex071404 04:54, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In any case, you are using a literal reading of the NYT to make an argument for a specific conclusion. That's not what Wikipedia is about. older≠ wiser 15:35, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
If you agree that your sources are of lesser veracity, then I see no reason you should point them out - they do not help you make your point. Also, when you say "paraphrase" you are in error. This sentence "he and an associate broke into the building where the phone lines were housed" is not a paraphase. Rather it is a 1st hand report of a fact. That is how reporters report news. They state facts. A news report need not pend itself, held back until a culprit says something like this: "Yes indeed, I broke into the basement". It's axoimatic that culprits softplay their mis-steps....
Here is what we know so far:
"It was obviously not the smart way to do it," Mr. Kerry said.
Are you suggesting that Cameron was arrested after NOT breaking into the building? Are you suggesting that the charges were utterly groundless? If so, ask yourself, why is that fact not in the NYT article?
Try as certain people may, there is no way to argue or rationalize away the truth here: 1) Cameron Kerry was arrested. 2) Cameron Kerry did break into the building.
The only open question is whether or not he was intending to commit Grand Larceny. And since nothing I have read brings a reasonable level of proof to that, I have left out any inference that he did intend Grand Larceny. On the other hand, simply because the aim of the break-in may not have been criminally intended, does not mean that the break-in did not occcur.
Please read my post above where I link to Mens Rea and explain in more detail. Rex071404 16:43, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Rex, the following edit summary by you is one small example of your near-total misunderstanding of the Wikipedia process: “Link style Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is consistent with VVAW pointer to sub page method - do not change this link format again prior to full discussion - Thank you!” I'm going to analyze this particular issue in more detail than it deserves, because I think it illustrates a larger point.
You do this over and over. You feel free to make any changes you want, but anyone else who makes a change is a “vandal” if you don’t like the change and it was done “prior to full discussion”. I have nothing against “full discussion”, but it seems that you don't think a discussion is finished until you've agreed -- which you almost never do.
This one tiny point about the basics of Wikipedia linking policy has taken up an absurd amount of time already, thanks to you. Here’s the actual history. I was the first to suggest the current framework, in this edit on the Talk page, in which I wrote in part:
Mbecker and Wolfman agreed, and Gamaliel had previously endorsed a change along these lines, so that change was made. You apparently weren’t online at the time, but there’s no rule that every proposed change has to wait 24 or 48 hours so that everyone can comment on it. You were online sometime thereafter, when you made this revert (among others) to try to reinstate the plug (including cover photo) for the book attacking Kerry. (I note in passing that your edit summary there – “I was the one who originally posted this .jpg here some time ago - this should not have been moved” – is one of many suggesting that you feel some sort of ownership over the article, especially over changes you make, such that no one else is allowed to change anything you’ve added. Get it through your head, there is no such ownership on Wikipedia.)
Anyway, as to the link question, the immediate point is that you made multiple edits, including edits to this very section, without changing the SBVT link. Wolfman and I had both followed normal Wiki style for links, and that’s how it appeared in the article. It was only several hours later that you began the string of edits in which you repeatedly changed the normal Wiki style to one that suited you better, apparently because you really really liked that particular link and you wanted to urge readers to follow it.
I hope you see the point here. You yourself changed the link format “prior to full discussion.” In fact, no one else has agreed with you that there’s any reason to depart from normal linking style here. Nevertheless, you insist that your preference must govern, trumping everyone else’s, pending “full discussion.”
The specific issue of setting up this one link incorrectly isn’t of any great intrinsic importance. I’ve detailed it to try to make you see that the practical effect of your style is that you're demanding enormous special privileges. If everyone acted the way you’ve been acting, the Wikipedia project would become utterly impossible.
The patient and sincere explanations you’ve gotten haven’t helped. The multiple warnings you’ve gotten haven’t helped. The 24-hour block you got hasn’t helped. The Request for Comment hasn’t helped. The Request for Mediation hasn’t helped. The threat of a Request for Arbitration hasn’t helped. The actual commencement of a Request for Arbitration hasn’t helped. If we assume good faith, then we can only conclude that you’re temperamentally incapable of participating in a collaborative editing project. From now on, I won't be able to waste any more of my time trying to teach you anything. My further comments on your editing style will be given in the course of the Arbitration Committee proceeding instead of cluttering up this page. JamesMLane 07:10, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I put the comment here for two reasons. First, most of it is a very detailed analysis of one particular passage in the article, one where Rex has already made multiple edits and reverts to try to insert his POV enthusiasm for the SBVT attacks. I don't see how he can demand "do not change this link format again prior to full discussion" and then object when someone engages in that "full discussion". Second, to the extent the comment goes beyond the specific issue of the reference to SBVT, it was my thought that some people might see it here who wouldn't see it if it were on Rex's Talk page, and that any resulting discussion could be useful in improving how everyone approaches editing this highly controversial article. Rex's response convinces me that the latter point was an exercise in foolish optimism on my part, which I will now abandon.
Accordingly, I'm going to extract the portion that's about the SBVT edit, and which responds to Rex's edit summary, and enter that much as a separate comment under "Link to SBVT sub-page" above. After that, Rex, if you want to move the full comment to your Talk page, feel free. Please recognize, however, that the dispute about the SBVT link is not an isolated incident. It's part of your continuing pattern. I don't want to take the time and the space to go into this much detail about each and every one of your comments or edit summaries that I disagree with. I don't think the Talk page is enhanced when people endlessly repeat themselves. Therefore, whether you move this specific text or not, please consider it to be implicit in many of my future comments here. JamesMLane 19:08, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The "perjury" was originally put in by me, then edited out by others. I did not rv, as I am currently unsure of the exact criminal charge which he was convicted of, had overturned on appeal and was later pardoned for. The exact charge may not have been "perjury" Rex071404 16:51, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In regards to those who won't concede that Cameron Kerry did in fact engage in a break-in as reported by the New York Times here.
(Since
older has stated that he will not respond - I have moved his comment lower down the page in order to make room for the comments of those who will respond.)
Rex071404 19:13, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I am not going to bother to repsond to your irrelevant leading questions above. To respond to points you made in the section above: you are relying on a casual paraphrase in the NYT as proof positive to support your position. That is what I call speculative argumentation. You say "I have addressed each and every point you have raised and have fully rebutted them all" and I reject this--you have not "fully rebutted" anything. You are the only person arguing for your version. Do we really have to put such triviality to a vote? older≠ wiser 19:10, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I am of the view that attributing so many statements to Elliot, in light of the fact that Elliot's actual views are now at the center of controversy in the press, needlessly injects a POV controversy into the article. The way I see it, virtually every statement being attributed to Elliot ought to come with a disclaimer concerning the current state of his views. At the very least, too much of Elliot sounding supportive of Kerry tells only 1/2 the story. I'd like to see this toned down.
In particular, I feel that this sentence: Elliott submitted Kerry for a Silver Star, about which he later said he had no "regrets or second thoughts", in light of the current SBVT controversy is especially misleading to the readers. Any thoughts? Rex071404 03:20, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
(does anyone know what these new facts are)
I think readers would like a NPOV on Kerry's voting record while in the Senate. As it stands, the Senate Years section is pretty sparse. And I find that a politician's voting record is more important than the campaign promises they make. Hopefully this can all be done in a Neutral Point Of View highlighting key issues and important legislation. A quick Google, I found The Orlando Report which looks too have a decent unbiased summary that can be used to further investigate the named legislation thus therein; and the article's catergorization of key issues looks like a good foundation for starting Wikipedia's own.
For further research help I Googled a site called OnTheIssues which looks like a progressive watchdog organization and has lists of politicians' stances and actions on different issues, many of which are sourced.
And there are the prominent special interest groups, like the NRA, ACLU, and the Sierra Club, who keep track of politicians' voting records over legislation that concerns each of their special interests.
It's just a start, I'd like to see the Senate section improved. Maybe somebody will get around to doing it.-- Mt2131 03:26, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Most Americans understand that we were fighting Viet Cong and/or NVA soldiers during the Vietnam war. I have read very view books which use the term NLF. I think we will lose our American readers if we completely omit the term "Viet Cong". Rex071404 03:52, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In order to head off any edit / revert wars or other SNAFUs regarding the "Elliott Quotation", provided we make a clear pointer link which says "see < sub-page name > for a full discussion.", I would support moving all this text (see below) to a sub page. Moving this text, would make Kerry's tour of duty / injury section more concise and would prevent tarring Kerry's main page with yet more controversy. Here is text for proposed move; Rex071404 13:39, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC):
The details surrounding Kerry's Silver Star award have recently become somewhat controversial. In June 2003, Elliott was quoted as saying the award was "well deserved" and that he had "no regrets or second thoughts at all about that." [9] More recently however, in August 2004, Elliott signed an affidavit stating "Had I known the facts, I would not have recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for simply pursuing and dispatching a single wounded, fleeing Viet Cong" [10]. This August affidavit was released in support of his July 2004 affidavit which stated in part "When Kerry came back to the United States, he lied about what occured in Vietnam...". It was after the release of this 1st affidavit, that Michael Kranish, of the Boston Globe quoted Elliott as having said "It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here ... I knew it was wrong ..In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake." [11]. It was the release of these two affidavits and Elliott's contention that the Globe reporter substantially misquoted him which resulted in controversy. While there has been contention from some Kerry supporters that Elliott's story has changed as the 2004 presidential race has evolved, for the most part, neither the Kerry nor Bush camps have commented on or paid attention to these Elliott comments or the press reports about them.
In one of his few public comments about his Silver Star, made sometime before this controversy, Kerry said, "It is a matter of record, what I did in Vietnam. And over the months that I was in combat, yes, we know that we were responsible for the loss of enemy lives. But that's war."
Said a Kerry supporter: "It's the reason he gets so angry when his patriotism is challenged. It was a traumatic experience that's still with him, and he went through it for his country." It affects the way Kerry lives his life every day, the source said, since "he knows he very well would not be alive today had he not taken the life of another man [he] never ever met." [12]
Earlier today, I corrected an edit made by Neutrality (see above). Just now, without querying the group and without any explaination beyond an edit summary which stated "factual inaccuracy", Neutrality reverted me.
Now, as the regulars on this page know, up until a few days ago, I was not careful enough to avoid being embroiled in edit / revert wars. However, I am trying to be careful now and to that end, I am asking the group to review this situation and comment.
I ask you to pay particular attention the the recent comment made by Cecropia on JamesMLane's talk page: "But I am concerned about the revert wars and the general attitude. I am trying to put across the idea that Rex is A problem, but he is not THE problem. The problem is a few editors (including but not limited to Rex) who think that everything in the article has to pass their muster or it gets summarily reverted."
I would like to be able to participate in this Wiki as a peer, without being singled out by certain editors, who revert me without discussion. I am particularly concerned about Neutrality's past and ongoing efforts along those lines. In fact, I feel that if Neutrality would stop doing this to me, I would feel more welcome here.
Even though I strongly disagree with Neutrality's action against my edit and even though I stongly believe that his edit summary is not well-founded, I'm holding any re-edits on "Elliott" in abeyance until later today or tommorrow so as to give the group time to respond.
Please add your comments ASAP. Rex071404 14:42, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This was not mere "correcting". Rather is was a wholesale reversion and multiple edits by Neutrality that blantantly mis-characterize my edits (which do contain accurate facts and accurate timeline and correct, on-point links) as being a "factual inaccuracy". Even so, as I have other things to attend to today and because I want to hear from the group, I will not comment on this again until tommorrow. Rex071404 14:57, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)