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Broken up into the three main threads with the vote at the bottom. - OberRanks ( talk) 22:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the term "Nigger Jack" from the nickname template which is visible in the info box. This name was used as an insult to Pershing by a fraction of those who knew him; most often by West Point cadets and then as a vile type of slur. The term "Blackjack" was far more widely known and is referenced in many military texts. And, while WP does not censor any info, the info about his n-ggr name is best spoken of in the text of the article, not in the highly visible information box at the start of the article since this was never a widely spoken of nickname and certainly nothing that Pershing ever went by himself. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I also agree that is is documented, but there is no need to have a nickname which is a racial slur in a highly visible intro box. The matter is already discussed in the body of the article. Having a name which is clearly a racial slur in a main info box of a famous military character will draw fire and it most likely be removed over and over again. And this hasn't really been in there for that long (perhaps a few months at the most) and it appears to have slipped through the cracks until now. We could also use a reference note next to "Black Jack" as a compromise. But, for right now, we have 3 users here plus two more on the ANI stating this is not appropriate. I believe we should keep it out per WP:CON. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I have removed both nicknames for the time being until the matter is resolved. Please note to all concerned that to re-add either would break WP:CON since this is an unresolved dispute. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
My view is that if "nigger" were not an awful, shocking, offensive word, there wouldn't be a debate over whether the nickname should be included in the infobox. Thus I really do think censorship is at play here.
However, I also accept that if we are to have the nickname in the infobox, some context should be offered. "Black Jack (originally 'Nigger Jack')" offers some context; adding a citation for the relation of the two names within the infobox would add more context. What more could be done? I'm open to ideas.-- Father Goose ( talk) 05:28, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
(Copied from User talk:OberRanks): I have added the nicknames back to the infobox. Contrary to what you have stated, to remove them is to break WP:CON, as you removed something that had stood for over a year without consensus, or even discussion. Thank you. Mk5384 ( talk) 03:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The grounds is WP:DISPUTE and WP:COMMONSENSE. Several users have voiced concern that the addition of a nickname which is clearly a racial slur, cited or not, would draw fire to the article and, by an un-informed reader, would be seen as shocking and vandalism (even if it were not). This mateirla is also already spoken of the text. This is also highly controversial and was removed until all parties agree on a course - re-adding it againt consensus is clearly uncalled for. Furthermore, posting messages to my talk page, instead of voicing them on the article talk page for all users to see, is also inappropriate as we should have all comments about the article in one single place. It also appears we have a single user ( Mk5384) insisting that this material be added in to the infobox and, by my count, five or six comments against (including anon ips). The proper course is to keep it out for now until we can reach a consensus. And , like I've been saying, ALL of this material should be mentioned in the text of the article already so it is not as if we are removing the material completely. - OberRanks ( talk) 11:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Racial epithets are a difficult issue in the study of United States social history especially in the period between the end of Reconstruction and World War I. Social norms have changed so much that it is almost impossible to set certain matters in context.
Here is one example of how a biographer handled the dilemma: very early in Irving Berlin's career (1904) he got a job as a singing waiter in lower Manhattan.
The biography continues that way on at least fourteen separate pages and even mentions Irving Berlin paying his respects at "Nigger Mike's" funeral. As difficult as it is today to imagine such a nickname as anything other than extreme derision, that actually was socially acceptable to address a white man that way if he preferred it. In detailed biographies of Irving Berlin that moniker is inescapable: the singing waiter job was Berlin's first break in the music business and both the proprietor and his restaurant were universally known by the N word: Google Books returns 263 hits for "Irving Berlin nigger Mike". [3]
Google books also returns 108 hits for "John Pershing 'Nigger Jack'. [4] Interesting discussions are at Enviropop: studies in environmental rhetoric and popular culture, [5] The savage wars of peace: small wars and the rise of American power, [6] and War Letters: Extraordinary Correspondence from American Wars. [7] So it's verifiable and nontrivial, but it's also the kind of nickname that has to be explained in context. Otherwise it will elicit heated reactions and be mistaken for vandalism. Questions to evaluate include:
The thing to really be on guard against is a juvenile impulse to use the term without context for its shock value, just because it's sourceable. Durova 412 21:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
A situation is developing on the John Pershing article where a handful of anon ips and one registered user are attempting to place in the biography info box at the start of the article that Pershing was called "Nigger Jack" as his nickname. Pershing was in fact called this name, but it was an insult hurled at him by opponents and some West Point cadets who disliked him. It was never in any a nickname Pershing called himself and by World War I if someone called him that it was a court martial offense. By that point, the majority fo the media and the public were calling him "Black Jack" which is far more commonly accepted as a nickname for Pershing. I believe the motives behind putting the word "nigger" in the info box are for shock value (this info is also already spoken of in the text). It would also be the same as if some angry soldier called Obama by this word, so we put "nigger" in his biography box as a nickname. Clearly inappropriate and downgrading to the article. Its been added twice so far, so this does bear watching and possible admin intervention if it continues. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
The source is reliable and it verifies the text. John Pershing wasn't the only white man who had that sort of nickname, and in another documented pre-WWI instance a white man in New York City preferred the nickname for himself. Social norms have changed enormously since that era. This does not need administrative attention; undue weight is a content issue that can be worked out on the article talk page. The epithet was not vandalism. Durova 412 16:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I feel it necessary to also mention this edit [8] in which User:Mk5384 stated I was violating consensus by removing the nicknames and that our discussion is "nonsense". I'll count 6 editors opposed to this material in the infobox, F-Goose appears to be on the fence but respecting what we are saying, and Mk5384 readding this material, over and over again, insisting it be in the infobox. I would submit it is not I who is going against consensus here. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Please read the full argument. No-one is saying remove the material from the article, we are saying it should not be in the highly visible infobox. We've also started a vote down below in order to get consensus and I have actually re-added the material until the vote is concluded. I suggest you vote as well, so you can get your opinion in the count. - OberRanks ( talk) 14:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Mk5384, both nicknames are up for removal and there is now a very straight forward vote going on as to determine keeping or deleting either one. You also appear to be overlooking the fact that, to avoid an edit war and bad feelings, I voluntarily reverted myself and restored this material into the article [9]. We are, at this point, following WP:DISPUTE to the letter by having a consensus vote after a discussion from both sides. No-one is accusing you of anything, saying you did anything wrong, and if you got that impression then I'm sorry. The best thing to do is to take a step back, cool off a bit, and let the vote proceed. We can then keep or remove the material based on the outcome. - OberRanks ( talk) 15:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. - OberRanks ( talk) 15:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The vote is split right down the middle, so it is a good indication that this is a deeply divided issue. My main concern for having the vote was to centralize the discussion since the threads were going off in several directions with some of it spilling over onto user talk pages accompanied by some heated remarks. At least with the votes, we know exactly where all parties stand. - OberRanks ( talk) 22:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
To get clear consensus on this issue, I am starting this vote section. The question is: "Should the "Nigger Jack" nickname be included in the biography infobox at the start of the article?"
I read the posts on the ANI, and responded to them there, and will make another attempt here. First things first; in the heat of my frustration, I made several posts that were completely out of line, and for those, I apologise sincerely. Seeing that OberRanks took my completely sarcastic comment completely seriously, I realized that perhaps he sincerly thought that I was making these edits because I am a racist. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I should have erred on the side of caution, and gone further to make that clear. Baseball Bugs said that my 7th edit was to "try to slip 'Nigger Jack' back in". I'll assume good faith, but I'd like to rebut that. I have been interested in Wikipedia long before I began participating. I never thought of editing before I realized that someone had listed the wrong year of birth for the beautiful Pilar Montenegro. I felt compelled to correct it, and one thing lead to another. For numerous reasons, I have always been interested in World War I, which has translated into an interest in General Pershing. I was interested in the article long before I began editing. When I noticed that someone had removed the name "Nigger Jack", I put it back. That's all. If the fact that I did that as my 7th edit translates into suspicions of racism or sockpuppetry, I don't know what to say. Let me make another attempt at this, peacefully. I think that we all agree that the nickname of "Nigger Jack" is properly sourced. The problem seems to be, "Why does it have to be in the infobox?". Here's why, IMHO. It was in there, long before I put it back, in January. Type in "Nigger Jack", and you get the John Pershing article. I think that's pretty darn significant, as far as showing just how widely he was known as that. Type in "Old Blue Eyes", and you get the Frank Sinatra article. There, in the infobox, for Mr. Sinatra, are his nicknames, just like the John Pershing article. I think that in addition to the 62 sources that Father Goose provided, the fact that "Nigger Jack" redirects to John Pershing goes a long way towards showing just how widespread the name was. I doubt anyone would have a problem with this if the word in question wasn't so horrible. ( And it is horrible.) But, as I have said, and as we all know, Wikipedia is not censored. To include only the name "Black Jack", is IMHO, an attempt to whitewash some very nasty history. To keep both names out, because one of them is a detestable epithet, is IMHO, censorship. So, in conclusion, the infobox should remain as it was, with both nicknames listed. As per Durova's good faith compromise suggestion of a footnote, I respectfully add that footnote probably would not have been suggested if it weren't for the offensive name, and therefore, should not be used. Mk5384 ( talk) 10:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Just wanted to record this removal. The text was archived, so the section was not simply blanked. I don't entirely agree with removing these remarks right now, but the editor acted professionally and archived them so I guess that's okay. - OberRanks ( talk) 15:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Would it be feasible to footnote the context at the infobox? See Walter_Raleigh#cite_note-0 and Jean_Desbouvrie#cite_note-0 for examples of the basic idea. Footnotes can contain explanations in addition to source links. Durova 412 17:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
^ See The Zoologist below: an 1889 report stated that Desbouvrie began keeping swallows when he was eleven and had raised them for over 30 years. That places his birthdate at or somewhat before 1847.
^ Many alternate spellings of his surname exist, including Rawley, Ralegh, Ralagh and Rawleigh. "Raleigh" appears most commonly today, though he, himself, used that spelling only once, as far as is known. His most consistent preference was for "Ralegh". His full name is correctly pronounced /ˈwɔːltə ˈrɔːli/, though, in practice, /ˈræli/ "rally" or even /ˈrɑːli/ "rahly" are the usual modern pronunciations in England.
Footnoting the infobox, without displaying the actual word, is an excellent suggestion and I think that's the way we should go. - OberRanks ( talk) 13:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Yeah...I didn't even realize Mk5384 had "returned" when making that post. I was responding to the conversion between Bugs and the others up above. - OberRanks ( talk) 14:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
So you just made your own case: "Nothing approaching consensus". Therefore, neither version of nicknames should be in the article right now until we can get this agreed upon. Mk, you can state all day long that you are going to insert your preferred version over and over again, but I have already stated exactly what will happen. Several other users will revert you, you will most likely be blocked for violating
WP:3RR, and the article will probably be protected once again with the matter referred for mediation. If that's what you want, then fine, but it really is not worth the effort. See
Wikipedia:Tendentious editing for further details. -
OberRanks (
talk)
16:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
You have talked ad nauseaum about getting me blocked. You originally wanted me blocked merely for adding the names back. And since then, you have proposed more blocks than I can count. And yet I have not been blocked. That's not bravado on my part; it's just that contrary to your myriad attempts to stultify my character with your ubiquitous contemelious canards, I have done nothing to merit a block. You want me blocked just like you don't want the "n" word in the infobox; because that's the way you feel it should be. How do you feel qualified to tell me exactly what's going to happen when I put the names back? As you have finally admitted, the issue is highly divided. What makes you think that someone who agrees with me won't come along and undo the revert after someone reverts me. Now, of course this may not happen, because unlike you, I don't profess to know the future. In any event, this is likely to wind up in formal mediation. Now, if after formal mediation, it does wind up that your version is the one that gets used, you won't be seeing any more reverts from me, for whilst I will disagree until the end of time, you will have won fair and square. Until that time, I stand by what I said about intending to return the properly sourced information to the article. As you said, we can just agree to disagree until such time as formal mediation takes place.
Mk5384 (
talk)
18:23, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
With the matter divided down the middle (6 support votes, 7 oppose votes, and 1 "Yes" vote), there is obviously not an overwhelming consensus to either keep or retain the nicknames section. I think a compromise would be to have the nickname section contain only the links to the references for both names. The reference notes can be slightly altered to display the nickname and then the relevant source information. In this manner, it is still in the infobox that Pershing had nicknames, but the shock value aspect is removed. - OberRanks ( talk) 14:20, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
After reviewing the comments of everyone, it seems like we do have one solution that I think will make everyone happy. I come to this conclusion since it is a fact that Wikipedia is not censored and it is a fact that Pershing was called the bad n-word as this has been well established by cited sources. So, to solve this, here is what I think we should do: Display all nicknames in the infobox followed by reference note links that expalin the names in thier full context. It would look something like Nicknames: Black Jack [1], Nigger Jack [2] with the "1" and "2" being reference note links which would explain the completel history about why he was called both of those names. I think that is thte best solution here with the only disadvantage being the article might be vandalized from time to time by shocked editors removing the nickames out-of-hand. But, we can deal with that. - OberRanks ( talk) 10:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Father Goose appeared to have cited the material with good sources. I'm sure we will have more than a few users who will restore the nicknames, the sources just need to be good and context reference notes added right after the names in question. - OberRanks ( talk) 11:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I honestly did not investigate the references that closely. That's the very core of the matter - are these reliable sources and good references. If they are, then I guess we add these names in the article. I plan to do neither (add or remove) but will let others do the editing once the article is unprotected as I've said all that can really be said on this matter. - OberRanks ( talk) 13:22, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
With less than 24 hours to unprotection, still very deep issues about this, along with an outstanding statement from one user that they intend to resume edit warring the minute protection is lifted [11], it might be best (as you said) to leave this out. If the references and sources are good, then I suppose something like this could in some form be in the article. I would personally like to see it never allowed in, but the regulations about WP:CITE and WP:CENSOR do make a case. I think at this point users should go with what they think is right. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, it is. This entire debate seems about the extreme wish of some users to see the same information displayed prominently in the bio-infobox. I can honestly say that I've never seen a debate like this on Wikipedia. It boggles the mind actually. Might be best to keep it out of the infobox for the reasons that have been brought up over and over again, the most significant of which is that the information is already in the article. The conundrum here is that it is not a clear violation of Wiki Policy to in fact display it in the info-box at the same time - just unnecessary and bad taste. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
With this highly polarized and extremely controversial debate far from resolved, I think the best thing to do would be to remove the entire nickname section (both names) until a version can be agreed upon that everyone is happy with. If it is removed (I don't personally plan to be the one to remove it), I would encourage everyone to respect the consensus building process and avoid edit warring. I have some further ideas on how to reach a conclusion here, but will wait to share them until after the article is unprotected. - OberRanks ( talk) 14:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
The very fact that instantly there is one for and one against shows that this still a charged, highly debatable issue with merit on both sides. I'm at the limit of my knowledge here - I've never seen a debate like this nor one this lengthy with no resolution. The thought to remove the material for both names is in my view a way to avoid the article from becoming a battleground. I also think we should avoid any re-votes or repeating the same views over and over again, as Sinneed accurately observed. What to do at this stage is the key question and I will leave that question to more knowledgeable users. - OberRanks ( talk) 15:09, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
For the very reason Postoak brought up, I say remove both - don't even have a nicknames section in the infobox. This is all covered in the body of the article anyway. That's the core of the debate here - why have it in the infobox when its mentioned already in the article? We've all given our views as to why and why not so no need repeating them, but as we can see there is no agreement at all about whether these names should stay or go - OberRanks ( talk) 15:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I've asked for an indefinite protection until this case can go to mediation. It's obvious that there is no agreement here and there is a clear danger of a nasty edit war. Thanks to MK for offering to spearhead the request for mediation. That is exactly what we need at this stage. - OberRanks ( talk) 17:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I was actually legitimately thanking MK (just to avoid a misunderstanding). I wouldn't know where to begin to start posting for mediation and contacting the committee and getting a board set up. We could use a dedicated user to make all of that happen and a mutual atmosphere of cooperation will do very well to clear up some of the hostile air in this dispute. -22:13, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Broken up into the three main threads with the vote at the bottom. - OberRanks ( talk) 22:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the term "Nigger Jack" from the nickname template which is visible in the info box. This name was used as an insult to Pershing by a fraction of those who knew him; most often by West Point cadets and then as a vile type of slur. The term "Blackjack" was far more widely known and is referenced in many military texts. And, while WP does not censor any info, the info about his n-ggr name is best spoken of in the text of the article, not in the highly visible information box at the start of the article since this was never a widely spoken of nickname and certainly nothing that Pershing ever went by himself. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I also agree that is is documented, but there is no need to have a nickname which is a racial slur in a highly visible intro box. The matter is already discussed in the body of the article. Having a name which is clearly a racial slur in a main info box of a famous military character will draw fire and it most likely be removed over and over again. And this hasn't really been in there for that long (perhaps a few months at the most) and it appears to have slipped through the cracks until now. We could also use a reference note next to "Black Jack" as a compromise. But, for right now, we have 3 users here plus two more on the ANI stating this is not appropriate. I believe we should keep it out per WP:CON. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I have removed both nicknames for the time being until the matter is resolved. Please note to all concerned that to re-add either would break WP:CON since this is an unresolved dispute. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
My view is that if "nigger" were not an awful, shocking, offensive word, there wouldn't be a debate over whether the nickname should be included in the infobox. Thus I really do think censorship is at play here.
However, I also accept that if we are to have the nickname in the infobox, some context should be offered. "Black Jack (originally 'Nigger Jack')" offers some context; adding a citation for the relation of the two names within the infobox would add more context. What more could be done? I'm open to ideas.-- Father Goose ( talk) 05:28, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
(Copied from User talk:OberRanks): I have added the nicknames back to the infobox. Contrary to what you have stated, to remove them is to break WP:CON, as you removed something that had stood for over a year without consensus, or even discussion. Thank you. Mk5384 ( talk) 03:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The grounds is WP:DISPUTE and WP:COMMONSENSE. Several users have voiced concern that the addition of a nickname which is clearly a racial slur, cited or not, would draw fire to the article and, by an un-informed reader, would be seen as shocking and vandalism (even if it were not). This mateirla is also already spoken of the text. This is also highly controversial and was removed until all parties agree on a course - re-adding it againt consensus is clearly uncalled for. Furthermore, posting messages to my talk page, instead of voicing them on the article talk page for all users to see, is also inappropriate as we should have all comments about the article in one single place. It also appears we have a single user ( Mk5384) insisting that this material be added in to the infobox and, by my count, five or six comments against (including anon ips). The proper course is to keep it out for now until we can reach a consensus. And , like I've been saying, ALL of this material should be mentioned in the text of the article already so it is not as if we are removing the material completely. - OberRanks ( talk) 11:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Racial epithets are a difficult issue in the study of United States social history especially in the period between the end of Reconstruction and World War I. Social norms have changed so much that it is almost impossible to set certain matters in context.
Here is one example of how a biographer handled the dilemma: very early in Irving Berlin's career (1904) he got a job as a singing waiter in lower Manhattan.
The biography continues that way on at least fourteen separate pages and even mentions Irving Berlin paying his respects at "Nigger Mike's" funeral. As difficult as it is today to imagine such a nickname as anything other than extreme derision, that actually was socially acceptable to address a white man that way if he preferred it. In detailed biographies of Irving Berlin that moniker is inescapable: the singing waiter job was Berlin's first break in the music business and both the proprietor and his restaurant were universally known by the N word: Google Books returns 263 hits for "Irving Berlin nigger Mike". [3]
Google books also returns 108 hits for "John Pershing 'Nigger Jack'. [4] Interesting discussions are at Enviropop: studies in environmental rhetoric and popular culture, [5] The savage wars of peace: small wars and the rise of American power, [6] and War Letters: Extraordinary Correspondence from American Wars. [7] So it's verifiable and nontrivial, but it's also the kind of nickname that has to be explained in context. Otherwise it will elicit heated reactions and be mistaken for vandalism. Questions to evaluate include:
The thing to really be on guard against is a juvenile impulse to use the term without context for its shock value, just because it's sourceable. Durova 412 21:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
A situation is developing on the John Pershing article where a handful of anon ips and one registered user are attempting to place in the biography info box at the start of the article that Pershing was called "Nigger Jack" as his nickname. Pershing was in fact called this name, but it was an insult hurled at him by opponents and some West Point cadets who disliked him. It was never in any a nickname Pershing called himself and by World War I if someone called him that it was a court martial offense. By that point, the majority fo the media and the public were calling him "Black Jack" which is far more commonly accepted as a nickname for Pershing. I believe the motives behind putting the word "nigger" in the info box are for shock value (this info is also already spoken of in the text). It would also be the same as if some angry soldier called Obama by this word, so we put "nigger" in his biography box as a nickname. Clearly inappropriate and downgrading to the article. Its been added twice so far, so this does bear watching and possible admin intervention if it continues. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
The source is reliable and it verifies the text. John Pershing wasn't the only white man who had that sort of nickname, and in another documented pre-WWI instance a white man in New York City preferred the nickname for himself. Social norms have changed enormously since that era. This does not need administrative attention; undue weight is a content issue that can be worked out on the article talk page. The epithet was not vandalism. Durova 412 16:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I feel it necessary to also mention this edit [8] in which User:Mk5384 stated I was violating consensus by removing the nicknames and that our discussion is "nonsense". I'll count 6 editors opposed to this material in the infobox, F-Goose appears to be on the fence but respecting what we are saying, and Mk5384 readding this material, over and over again, insisting it be in the infobox. I would submit it is not I who is going against consensus here. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Please read the full argument. No-one is saying remove the material from the article, we are saying it should not be in the highly visible infobox. We've also started a vote down below in order to get consensus and I have actually re-added the material until the vote is concluded. I suggest you vote as well, so you can get your opinion in the count. - OberRanks ( talk) 14:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Mk5384, both nicknames are up for removal and there is now a very straight forward vote going on as to determine keeping or deleting either one. You also appear to be overlooking the fact that, to avoid an edit war and bad feelings, I voluntarily reverted myself and restored this material into the article [9]. We are, at this point, following WP:DISPUTE to the letter by having a consensus vote after a discussion from both sides. No-one is accusing you of anything, saying you did anything wrong, and if you got that impression then I'm sorry. The best thing to do is to take a step back, cool off a bit, and let the vote proceed. We can then keep or remove the material based on the outcome. - OberRanks ( talk) 15:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. - OberRanks ( talk) 15:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The vote is split right down the middle, so it is a good indication that this is a deeply divided issue. My main concern for having the vote was to centralize the discussion since the threads were going off in several directions with some of it spilling over onto user talk pages accompanied by some heated remarks. At least with the votes, we know exactly where all parties stand. - OberRanks ( talk) 22:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
To get clear consensus on this issue, I am starting this vote section. The question is: "Should the "Nigger Jack" nickname be included in the biography infobox at the start of the article?"
I read the posts on the ANI, and responded to them there, and will make another attempt here. First things first; in the heat of my frustration, I made several posts that were completely out of line, and for those, I apologise sincerely. Seeing that OberRanks took my completely sarcastic comment completely seriously, I realized that perhaps he sincerly thought that I was making these edits because I am a racist. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I should have erred on the side of caution, and gone further to make that clear. Baseball Bugs said that my 7th edit was to "try to slip 'Nigger Jack' back in". I'll assume good faith, but I'd like to rebut that. I have been interested in Wikipedia long before I began participating. I never thought of editing before I realized that someone had listed the wrong year of birth for the beautiful Pilar Montenegro. I felt compelled to correct it, and one thing lead to another. For numerous reasons, I have always been interested in World War I, which has translated into an interest in General Pershing. I was interested in the article long before I began editing. When I noticed that someone had removed the name "Nigger Jack", I put it back. That's all. If the fact that I did that as my 7th edit translates into suspicions of racism or sockpuppetry, I don't know what to say. Let me make another attempt at this, peacefully. I think that we all agree that the nickname of "Nigger Jack" is properly sourced. The problem seems to be, "Why does it have to be in the infobox?". Here's why, IMHO. It was in there, long before I put it back, in January. Type in "Nigger Jack", and you get the John Pershing article. I think that's pretty darn significant, as far as showing just how widely he was known as that. Type in "Old Blue Eyes", and you get the Frank Sinatra article. There, in the infobox, for Mr. Sinatra, are his nicknames, just like the John Pershing article. I think that in addition to the 62 sources that Father Goose provided, the fact that "Nigger Jack" redirects to John Pershing goes a long way towards showing just how widespread the name was. I doubt anyone would have a problem with this if the word in question wasn't so horrible. ( And it is horrible.) But, as I have said, and as we all know, Wikipedia is not censored. To include only the name "Black Jack", is IMHO, an attempt to whitewash some very nasty history. To keep both names out, because one of them is a detestable epithet, is IMHO, censorship. So, in conclusion, the infobox should remain as it was, with both nicknames listed. As per Durova's good faith compromise suggestion of a footnote, I respectfully add that footnote probably would not have been suggested if it weren't for the offensive name, and therefore, should not be used. Mk5384 ( talk) 10:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Just wanted to record this removal. The text was archived, so the section was not simply blanked. I don't entirely agree with removing these remarks right now, but the editor acted professionally and archived them so I guess that's okay. - OberRanks ( talk) 15:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Would it be feasible to footnote the context at the infobox? See Walter_Raleigh#cite_note-0 and Jean_Desbouvrie#cite_note-0 for examples of the basic idea. Footnotes can contain explanations in addition to source links. Durova 412 17:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
^ See The Zoologist below: an 1889 report stated that Desbouvrie began keeping swallows when he was eleven and had raised them for over 30 years. That places his birthdate at or somewhat before 1847.
^ Many alternate spellings of his surname exist, including Rawley, Ralegh, Ralagh and Rawleigh. "Raleigh" appears most commonly today, though he, himself, used that spelling only once, as far as is known. His most consistent preference was for "Ralegh". His full name is correctly pronounced /ˈwɔːltə ˈrɔːli/, though, in practice, /ˈræli/ "rally" or even /ˈrɑːli/ "rahly" are the usual modern pronunciations in England.
Footnoting the infobox, without displaying the actual word, is an excellent suggestion and I think that's the way we should go. - OberRanks ( talk) 13:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Yeah...I didn't even realize Mk5384 had "returned" when making that post. I was responding to the conversion between Bugs and the others up above. - OberRanks ( talk) 14:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
So you just made your own case: "Nothing approaching consensus". Therefore, neither version of nicknames should be in the article right now until we can get this agreed upon. Mk, you can state all day long that you are going to insert your preferred version over and over again, but I have already stated exactly what will happen. Several other users will revert you, you will most likely be blocked for violating
WP:3RR, and the article will probably be protected once again with the matter referred for mediation. If that's what you want, then fine, but it really is not worth the effort. See
Wikipedia:Tendentious editing for further details. -
OberRanks (
talk)
16:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
You have talked ad nauseaum about getting me blocked. You originally wanted me blocked merely for adding the names back. And since then, you have proposed more blocks than I can count. And yet I have not been blocked. That's not bravado on my part; it's just that contrary to your myriad attempts to stultify my character with your ubiquitous contemelious canards, I have done nothing to merit a block. You want me blocked just like you don't want the "n" word in the infobox; because that's the way you feel it should be. How do you feel qualified to tell me exactly what's going to happen when I put the names back? As you have finally admitted, the issue is highly divided. What makes you think that someone who agrees with me won't come along and undo the revert after someone reverts me. Now, of course this may not happen, because unlike you, I don't profess to know the future. In any event, this is likely to wind up in formal mediation. Now, if after formal mediation, it does wind up that your version is the one that gets used, you won't be seeing any more reverts from me, for whilst I will disagree until the end of time, you will have won fair and square. Until that time, I stand by what I said about intending to return the properly sourced information to the article. As you said, we can just agree to disagree until such time as formal mediation takes place.
Mk5384 (
talk)
18:23, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
With the matter divided down the middle (6 support votes, 7 oppose votes, and 1 "Yes" vote), there is obviously not an overwhelming consensus to either keep or retain the nicknames section. I think a compromise would be to have the nickname section contain only the links to the references for both names. The reference notes can be slightly altered to display the nickname and then the relevant source information. In this manner, it is still in the infobox that Pershing had nicknames, but the shock value aspect is removed. - OberRanks ( talk) 14:20, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
After reviewing the comments of everyone, it seems like we do have one solution that I think will make everyone happy. I come to this conclusion since it is a fact that Wikipedia is not censored and it is a fact that Pershing was called the bad n-word as this has been well established by cited sources. So, to solve this, here is what I think we should do: Display all nicknames in the infobox followed by reference note links that expalin the names in thier full context. It would look something like Nicknames: Black Jack [1], Nigger Jack [2] with the "1" and "2" being reference note links which would explain the completel history about why he was called both of those names. I think that is thte best solution here with the only disadvantage being the article might be vandalized from time to time by shocked editors removing the nickames out-of-hand. But, we can deal with that. - OberRanks ( talk) 10:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Father Goose appeared to have cited the material with good sources. I'm sure we will have more than a few users who will restore the nicknames, the sources just need to be good and context reference notes added right after the names in question. - OberRanks ( talk) 11:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I honestly did not investigate the references that closely. That's the very core of the matter - are these reliable sources and good references. If they are, then I guess we add these names in the article. I plan to do neither (add or remove) but will let others do the editing once the article is unprotected as I've said all that can really be said on this matter. - OberRanks ( talk) 13:22, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
With less than 24 hours to unprotection, still very deep issues about this, along with an outstanding statement from one user that they intend to resume edit warring the minute protection is lifted [11], it might be best (as you said) to leave this out. If the references and sources are good, then I suppose something like this could in some form be in the article. I would personally like to see it never allowed in, but the regulations about WP:CITE and WP:CENSOR do make a case. I think at this point users should go with what they think is right. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, it is. This entire debate seems about the extreme wish of some users to see the same information displayed prominently in the bio-infobox. I can honestly say that I've never seen a debate like this on Wikipedia. It boggles the mind actually. Might be best to keep it out of the infobox for the reasons that have been brought up over and over again, the most significant of which is that the information is already in the article. The conundrum here is that it is not a clear violation of Wiki Policy to in fact display it in the info-box at the same time - just unnecessary and bad taste. - OberRanks ( talk) 12:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
With this highly polarized and extremely controversial debate far from resolved, I think the best thing to do would be to remove the entire nickname section (both names) until a version can be agreed upon that everyone is happy with. If it is removed (I don't personally plan to be the one to remove it), I would encourage everyone to respect the consensus building process and avoid edit warring. I have some further ideas on how to reach a conclusion here, but will wait to share them until after the article is unprotected. - OberRanks ( talk) 14:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
The very fact that instantly there is one for and one against shows that this still a charged, highly debatable issue with merit on both sides. I'm at the limit of my knowledge here - I've never seen a debate like this nor one this lengthy with no resolution. The thought to remove the material for both names is in my view a way to avoid the article from becoming a battleground. I also think we should avoid any re-votes or repeating the same views over and over again, as Sinneed accurately observed. What to do at this stage is the key question and I will leave that question to more knowledgeable users. - OberRanks ( talk) 15:09, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
For the very reason Postoak brought up, I say remove both - don't even have a nicknames section in the infobox. This is all covered in the body of the article anyway. That's the core of the debate here - why have it in the infobox when its mentioned already in the article? We've all given our views as to why and why not so no need repeating them, but as we can see there is no agreement at all about whether these names should stay or go - OberRanks ( talk) 15:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I've asked for an indefinite protection until this case can go to mediation. It's obvious that there is no agreement here and there is a clear danger of a nasty edit war. Thanks to MK for offering to spearhead the request for mediation. That is exactly what we need at this stage. - OberRanks ( talk) 17:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I was actually legitimately thanking MK (just to avoid a misunderstanding). I wouldn't know where to begin to start posting for mediation and contacting the committee and getting a board set up. We could use a dedicated user to make all of that happen and a mutual atmosphere of cooperation will do very well to clear up some of the hostile air in this dispute. -22:13, 1 April 2010 (UTC)