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I am not convinced he should be called John V. The French Wiki calls him Jean IV, the Breton Wiki calls him Yann IV. His father was not numbered, not because of a French bias, but because there was no peace treaty in his lifetime it was a civil war and nobody was duke of all the Bretons between 1341 and 1364.
The only reference in this article is a book from a well-known specialist … who calls him John IV: "Michael Jones, Ducal Brittany, 1364-1399: relations with England and France during the reign of Duke John IV" Patris22 ( talk) 12:27, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Clear consensus to re-title these articles and I note that, at least on this talk page, it has been a concern since 2013. Andrewa's links work for me, so we should be able to work from that if necessary – unfortunately he is correct that these will need to be done manually rather than by bot, but hopefully fixing the links in the navboxes should deal with a significant majority in one go. Pinging Whaleyland and Andrewa as they seemed most keen in helping clean up the links. Jenks24 ( talk) 01:59, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
– Modern historiographical convention names these three individuals as John of Montfort; John IV, Duke of Brittany; and John V, Duke of Brittany. The current convention of numbering John of Montfort is a propaganda relic in specifically British history relating to the
War of the Breton Succession. John of Montfort was never recognised as duke by the King of France, his overlord, and the title successfully was held by
Charles, Duke of Brittany until his defeat and death in 1364, at which point John's son,
John IV finally secured recognition from both the king of France and the king of England. Retaining the English numbering here is a Wikipedia anomaly and one that has divided and confused foreign language articles based on this topic. Significantly, though, both the French- and the Breton-language articles on this topic are clear in their numbering. In other words, the titling of these articles is primarily a legacy of the 1911 encyclopaedia that originally spawned them. Besides the citation referenced above by
Patris22 back in 2013 (who was referencing
page 239 of said book), see also John A. Wagner, Encyclopedia of the Hundred Years War (Greenwood Publishing, 2006),
63; Jonathan Sumption, Hundred Years War, Vol. 4: Cursed Kings (Faber & Faber, 2015),
ebook; and Robert Knecht, The Valois: Kings of France 1328-1589 (A&C, 2007),
43.
–
Darius von Whaleyland,
Great Khan
of the Barbarian Horde
12:12, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
I've saved some information at
http://alderspace.pbworks.com/w/page/102759130/Duke%20of%20Brittany
some of which will be lost with the proposed moves and which might I hope be useful (even essential) afterwards.
It's just a copy and paste from the "what links here" pages, and doesn't tell us where the links are on the pages. But it at least tells us which pages are affected. In each case, fortunately and as you'll see, there are less than 500 incoming links so it's possible to list them all on one page, which is what I've done.
Comments welcome. In particular, is there a way of gathering more soon-to-be-lost information that I haven't thought of?
It might be good for someone to check the accuracy of what I've done, too, and confirm that you can use the page (for read at least) without needing to sign on the PBWorks (which is my intention and I think essential if the page is to be of use).
This information would be much better in a Wikipedia project, talk or user page, of course, I've used the PBWorks page just because I'm a little more comfortable with the editor there for such tasks. Feel free to copy to your user space or other places if that helps. Andrewa ( talk) 17:42, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
I've made a start on the links, but there's still a fair way to go. I've also updated most of the redirects, but there was a few I wasn't sure about that I'll list here:
— Jenks24 ( talk) 02:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I am not convinced he should be called John V. The French Wiki calls him Jean IV, the Breton Wiki calls him Yann IV. His father was not numbered, not because of a French bias, but because there was no peace treaty in his lifetime it was a civil war and nobody was duke of all the Bretons between 1341 and 1364.
The only reference in this article is a book from a well-known specialist … who calls him John IV: "Michael Jones, Ducal Brittany, 1364-1399: relations with England and France during the reign of Duke John IV" Patris22 ( talk) 12:27, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Clear consensus to re-title these articles and I note that, at least on this talk page, it has been a concern since 2013. Andrewa's links work for me, so we should be able to work from that if necessary – unfortunately he is correct that these will need to be done manually rather than by bot, but hopefully fixing the links in the navboxes should deal with a significant majority in one go. Pinging Whaleyland and Andrewa as they seemed most keen in helping clean up the links. Jenks24 ( talk) 01:59, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
– Modern historiographical convention names these three individuals as John of Montfort; John IV, Duke of Brittany; and John V, Duke of Brittany. The current convention of numbering John of Montfort is a propaganda relic in specifically British history relating to the
War of the Breton Succession. John of Montfort was never recognised as duke by the King of France, his overlord, and the title successfully was held by
Charles, Duke of Brittany until his defeat and death in 1364, at which point John's son,
John IV finally secured recognition from both the king of France and the king of England. Retaining the English numbering here is a Wikipedia anomaly and one that has divided and confused foreign language articles based on this topic. Significantly, though, both the French- and the Breton-language articles on this topic are clear in their numbering. In other words, the titling of these articles is primarily a legacy of the 1911 encyclopaedia that originally spawned them. Besides the citation referenced above by
Patris22 back in 2013 (who was referencing
page 239 of said book), see also John A. Wagner, Encyclopedia of the Hundred Years War (Greenwood Publishing, 2006),
63; Jonathan Sumption, Hundred Years War, Vol. 4: Cursed Kings (Faber & Faber, 2015),
ebook; and Robert Knecht, The Valois: Kings of France 1328-1589 (A&C, 2007),
43.
–
Darius von Whaleyland,
Great Khan
of the Barbarian Horde
12:12, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
I've saved some information at
http://alderspace.pbworks.com/w/page/102759130/Duke%20of%20Brittany
some of which will be lost with the proposed moves and which might I hope be useful (even essential) afterwards.
It's just a copy and paste from the "what links here" pages, and doesn't tell us where the links are on the pages. But it at least tells us which pages are affected. In each case, fortunately and as you'll see, there are less than 500 incoming links so it's possible to list them all on one page, which is what I've done.
Comments welcome. In particular, is there a way of gathering more soon-to-be-lost information that I haven't thought of?
It might be good for someone to check the accuracy of what I've done, too, and confirm that you can use the page (for read at least) without needing to sign on the PBWorks (which is my intention and I think essential if the page is to be of use).
This information would be much better in a Wikipedia project, talk or user page, of course, I've used the PBWorks page just because I'm a little more comfortable with the editor there for such tasks. Feel free to copy to your user space or other places if that helps. Andrewa ( talk) 17:42, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
I've made a start on the links, but there's still a fair way to go. I've also updated most of the redirects, but there was a few I wasn't sure about that I'll list here:
— Jenks24 ( talk) 02:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)