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Due to issues on this page I have moved the page over to the Murder of Mark Fisher. The page can now be about the event and not about one of the 3 people involved in the event. Hopefully this will prevent further vandalism to the page. Drsammyjohnson ( talk) 04:55, 29 April 2021 (UTC)DrSammyJohnson
This page is being vandalized by a person or people connected to this page. I am still of the opinion that this individual should not even have a page but the page should instead be renamed - The Murder of Mark Fisher. Does anyone agree with this? Should we move the page over? And is there a good way to stop the editing war? Any recommendations would be appreciated. Drsammyjohnson ( talk) 23:55, 26 January 2021 (UTC)DrSammyJohnson
Unconfirmed editors are continuously updating the page. Adding in speculation, opinion, biased, information. Given the case history and ongoing attempt by the family to overturn this conviction, one can only assume the edits are being made by close connections to the convicted. If any admin has the ability to partially protect this page - I think it a worthwhile venture. I have done my best to present only facts about this case/ person. Any help would be appreciated. Drsammyjohnson ( talk) 21:44, 29 January 2021 (UTC)DrSammyJohnson
I completely agree with the above. This article is biased, it is about the case and not Guica. Guica's partner in crime, Antonio Russo doesn't have a page - I don't believe Guica should have one either. This page is and should be be about the case - it should be renamed to The Murder of Mark Fisher. I will work on a redraft Drsammyjohnson ( talk) 01:39, 28 November 2020 (UTC)DrSammyJohnson
I am in the process of editing this page to reflect Guica's involvement in this case and not the case as a whole. I have moved most of the trial content to User:Drsammyjohnson/The_Murder_of_Mark_Fisher with plans to create a new namespace once all the content is edited. Despite the immense changes so far - it is difficult to separate Giuca from the case. Because of this I believe his page should be redirected to the new page. The information on this page is about the murder and the case not about Giuca. It may take a while for me to work through this one. Any help would be appreciated. Also - the refs on this page need lots of work! Please respond with your thoughts on how to continue to make this page better and I will continue to work on it. Drsammyjohnson ( talk) 07:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)DrSammyJohnson
On the plus side, the article is lengthy enough and has its due share of documentation. Maybe I'd quibble about Counterpunch, Gothamist, Epstein & Weil, and Youtube as reliable sources, but the main problem I have with this article is its lack of balance.
Problems appear immediately. Giuca is said by the article to have been arrested “in connection to” the crime. Actually, the prosecution explanation of why Giuca was on trial, which would seem to have been accepted by the jury, was that victim Fisher "fell asleep on a couch but - drunk and with an Ecstasy pill in his system - was awakened by Mr. Guica, who led him from the house, prosecutors said. Then Mr. Guica and Mr. Russo beat him and eventually fired five shots into his chest...” (New York Times, 9/28/2005).
The article then focuses on Giuca's mother's attempt to free him. Giuca's case garnered attention not because of his mother's efforts to free him, but from having been convicted of a shocking crime.
Then we read that his most recent re-hearing request was denied because of a “technicality”. Of course, everyone hates the so-called technicalities of the law, whether it's folks getting off because of them, or as portrayed here, victimized by them -- but the article doesnt explain what this "technicality" is. Citing Giuca's own reply brief, not the court's decision, is certainly not the reliable source explanation a reader should be able to access.
Evidently someone doesn't approve of the felony murder doctrine, and the entire paragraph devoted to express this disapproval is really there to suggest Giuca lacks culpability for a crime he might not have “directly” taken part in. A more balanced article would also explain the justification for the felony murder doctrine.
Most of the article is devoted not to the crime, victim, evidence presented at court, items such as “the girlfriend of the alleged triggerman in the 2003 murder of Mark Fisher ’06 testified in Brooklyn state Supreme Court that her boyfriend confessed his crime to her hours after it was committed, according to The New Jersey Herald.” (fairfieldmirror.com, Oct 31, 2005) Nothing about Giuca's demeanor in court, nor the really short two-hour time it took for the jury to reach a verdict. Rather, it focuses almost entirely on allegations of prosecutorial misconduct, juror misconduct, the mother's attempts to free her son, and the defense's theories on appeal (but not, notably, the prosecution's).
The article really needs a major re-write in the interest of balance.
There is no mention here that Giuca considered himself head of the "Ghetto Mafia" street gang or that he was arrested for firing a weapon similar to the murder weapon in the streets of Brooklyn shortly before Fisher's murder. If this is not true, Giuca should sue Investigation Discovery. None of what is published here is included in their program of the crime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.136.107 ( talk) 02:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
~~ Strongly agree with SineBot. This article is so biased, it could have been written by Giuca's defense team, possibly even his mother. There's virtually nothing about his crime -- the senseless and brutal murder of Mark Fisher, a nineteen-year old football star and honors student whose only crime was making the highly insecure John Giuca and the other members of his "Ghetto Mafia" feel inadequate. I guess it's easier for Giuca's mother to blame the jury, the prosecutor, and the Felony-Murder Rule rather than contemplate the reality that her son not only commanded one of his soldiers to show Fisher "what was up," he callously looked on as someone else's son was shot five times in the back (with John Giuca's .22 Ruger pistol), then left him to bleed to death on the sidewalk. John Giuca called his brother immediately after the crime took place. Why would he do that if he was in the house? Why aren't any of these FACTS in the article? Now that the truth has been aired on television for the world to see, I fervently hope someone does a badly needed rewrite on this horribly biased article. Mark Fisher and his family deserve better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rapunzel676 ( talk • contribs) 01:03, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
What Rapunzel676 said. This looks like it was written by the convicted man's defense team. The crime is glossed over. Repeated rulings favorable to the state are treated in a perfunctory fashion, while the--unsucessful--arguments against those rulings are detailed aat considerable length. This article should be flagged for bias. Digthepast ( talk) 06:11, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
The stuff about his mother's campaign is fine for the article about his mother, but there was way too much detail. Assertions or insinuations that he is innocent, someone else (a living person!) did it Giuca didn't and that he didn't get a fair trial due to corruption by named living people, can't be stated in Wikipedia's voice. That kind of thing has to be identified as the opinion of named individuals, such as his mother or his lawyer (btw That kind of thing carries more weight if an independent legal figure or jurist can be cited for the view that he did not get a fair trial and is innocent.). Only undisputed facts can be stated in Wikipedia's voice (still need refs of course). He was convicted on a charge of murdering Marc Fisher, information about Fisher is highly relevant. Of course there can be a section called 'Defense arguments' where the case for Giuca being innocent is made. But we can't say and imply that Giuca is innocent throughout the article using Wikipedias voice. Overagainst ( talk) 21:22, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Much of the article seems to be based on primary sources, notably police reports, court documents and youtube clips. Just take a peek at the section accusing the DA of inappropriate connections to Cleary's mother. I'm hesitant to remove it wholesale (though it would be acceptable by wiki policy) because I suspect there's reliable semi-secondary sources to support it, but it should be cleaned up ASAP. It's a borderline WP:BLP violation on the mother and the DA as is. Glaucus ( talk) 23:50, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
When the protected status ends the article should start to be edited collaboratively, that is, any proposed changes being given here first with well sourced references. There may be be alterations to proposed text in the light of criticism or suggestions about proposed text. One editor (Jritts) has edited the article 87 times without ever bothering to discuss things on this talk page, no more of that please. Also, edit summaries should be just that, they are not the place to argue for or against an edit. This talk page is the place for that. Overagainst ( talk) 10:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Please don't think I am attempting to take over the editing of this article. I don't enjoy the time consuming (I'm slow and make a lot of mistakes) work involved in finding refs and composing text. Maybe some of my critics out there could do some work on a section of their own and then put it here for discussion. Publicity surrounding the case, especially pre trial, would be a good subject. Overagainst ( talk) 10:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
As I understand it at his trial Guica pleaded guilty to one charge which was firing a gun during a street confrontation when he was 17. The incident had been written up at the time as him letting off fireworks, but the team of DA's investigators and police that were on the Fisher case arrested him in Florida about this 3 year old incident and charged him with firing a gun. Guica said he was innocent of firing a gun when he was 17, but pleaded guilty to the charge relating to this old incident becuse fighting it could have cost him 15 years.
So he pleaded guilty to get a light sentence with credit for time served in jail. If he had not he could have been acquitted of the murder and robbery and gun charges, but still found guilty of and given 15 years on the unrelated charge relating to the incident that happened when he was 17. Is that a fair summary? Overagainst ( talk) 10:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't think the names of witnesses (or their mothers) should be used in this section. Even though the article is attributing the accusations against a witness to Guica supporters, it's still basically accusing an identified-by-name and not well known person of very serious wrongdoing. In the "'Free John Guica'" campaign section I think you-know-who should be called 'a crucial prosecution witness" or something like that. Overagainst ( talk) 10:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
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Please correct spelling of "recieve" to "receive" Arjayay ( talk) 17:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
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The article is actually about a murder investigation. Alternatively, the Trial of John Giuca might be a better alternative given the notoriety now comes form the conviction being overturned. Geo8rge ( talk) 19:59, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Geo8rge ( talk) 20:06, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
I just deleted a paragraph that did not have an RS source because it had blp implications. If anyone objects, let's discuss it here. -- 2603:7000:2143:8500:5051:8E5:1B15:55B ( talk) 05:38, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
User:Drsammyjohnson--This mass deletion/revert was not appropriate, and lacked any rationale for the many, many changes made - all of sourced information to RSs, and proper MOS editing. [1] The reverted edits were all proper, as can be plainly seen. The revert deletes RS-sourced information. There is zero reason for doing that, and it violates wikipedia rules. Kindly revert. And perhaps User:Materialscientist or User:LightandDark2000 who have edited here and seem seasoned can weigh in.-- 2603:7000:2143:8500:31B5:246A:5626:EDCA ( talk) 00:46, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
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Due to issues on this page I have moved the page over to the Murder of Mark Fisher. The page can now be about the event and not about one of the 3 people involved in the event. Hopefully this will prevent further vandalism to the page. Drsammyjohnson ( talk) 04:55, 29 April 2021 (UTC)DrSammyJohnson
This page is being vandalized by a person or people connected to this page. I am still of the opinion that this individual should not even have a page but the page should instead be renamed - The Murder of Mark Fisher. Does anyone agree with this? Should we move the page over? And is there a good way to stop the editing war? Any recommendations would be appreciated. Drsammyjohnson ( talk) 23:55, 26 January 2021 (UTC)DrSammyJohnson
Unconfirmed editors are continuously updating the page. Adding in speculation, opinion, biased, information. Given the case history and ongoing attempt by the family to overturn this conviction, one can only assume the edits are being made by close connections to the convicted. If any admin has the ability to partially protect this page - I think it a worthwhile venture. I have done my best to present only facts about this case/ person. Any help would be appreciated. Drsammyjohnson ( talk) 21:44, 29 January 2021 (UTC)DrSammyJohnson
I completely agree with the above. This article is biased, it is about the case and not Guica. Guica's partner in crime, Antonio Russo doesn't have a page - I don't believe Guica should have one either. This page is and should be be about the case - it should be renamed to The Murder of Mark Fisher. I will work on a redraft Drsammyjohnson ( talk) 01:39, 28 November 2020 (UTC)DrSammyJohnson
I am in the process of editing this page to reflect Guica's involvement in this case and not the case as a whole. I have moved most of the trial content to User:Drsammyjohnson/The_Murder_of_Mark_Fisher with plans to create a new namespace once all the content is edited. Despite the immense changes so far - it is difficult to separate Giuca from the case. Because of this I believe his page should be redirected to the new page. The information on this page is about the murder and the case not about Giuca. It may take a while for me to work through this one. Any help would be appreciated. Also - the refs on this page need lots of work! Please respond with your thoughts on how to continue to make this page better and I will continue to work on it. Drsammyjohnson ( talk) 07:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)DrSammyJohnson
On the plus side, the article is lengthy enough and has its due share of documentation. Maybe I'd quibble about Counterpunch, Gothamist, Epstein & Weil, and Youtube as reliable sources, but the main problem I have with this article is its lack of balance.
Problems appear immediately. Giuca is said by the article to have been arrested “in connection to” the crime. Actually, the prosecution explanation of why Giuca was on trial, which would seem to have been accepted by the jury, was that victim Fisher "fell asleep on a couch but - drunk and with an Ecstasy pill in his system - was awakened by Mr. Guica, who led him from the house, prosecutors said. Then Mr. Guica and Mr. Russo beat him and eventually fired five shots into his chest...” (New York Times, 9/28/2005).
The article then focuses on Giuca's mother's attempt to free him. Giuca's case garnered attention not because of his mother's efforts to free him, but from having been convicted of a shocking crime.
Then we read that his most recent re-hearing request was denied because of a “technicality”. Of course, everyone hates the so-called technicalities of the law, whether it's folks getting off because of them, or as portrayed here, victimized by them -- but the article doesnt explain what this "technicality" is. Citing Giuca's own reply brief, not the court's decision, is certainly not the reliable source explanation a reader should be able to access.
Evidently someone doesn't approve of the felony murder doctrine, and the entire paragraph devoted to express this disapproval is really there to suggest Giuca lacks culpability for a crime he might not have “directly” taken part in. A more balanced article would also explain the justification for the felony murder doctrine.
Most of the article is devoted not to the crime, victim, evidence presented at court, items such as “the girlfriend of the alleged triggerman in the 2003 murder of Mark Fisher ’06 testified in Brooklyn state Supreme Court that her boyfriend confessed his crime to her hours after it was committed, according to The New Jersey Herald.” (fairfieldmirror.com, Oct 31, 2005) Nothing about Giuca's demeanor in court, nor the really short two-hour time it took for the jury to reach a verdict. Rather, it focuses almost entirely on allegations of prosecutorial misconduct, juror misconduct, the mother's attempts to free her son, and the defense's theories on appeal (but not, notably, the prosecution's).
The article really needs a major re-write in the interest of balance.
There is no mention here that Giuca considered himself head of the "Ghetto Mafia" street gang or that he was arrested for firing a weapon similar to the murder weapon in the streets of Brooklyn shortly before Fisher's murder. If this is not true, Giuca should sue Investigation Discovery. None of what is published here is included in their program of the crime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.136.107 ( talk) 02:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
~~ Strongly agree with SineBot. This article is so biased, it could have been written by Giuca's defense team, possibly even his mother. There's virtually nothing about his crime -- the senseless and brutal murder of Mark Fisher, a nineteen-year old football star and honors student whose only crime was making the highly insecure John Giuca and the other members of his "Ghetto Mafia" feel inadequate. I guess it's easier for Giuca's mother to blame the jury, the prosecutor, and the Felony-Murder Rule rather than contemplate the reality that her son not only commanded one of his soldiers to show Fisher "what was up," he callously looked on as someone else's son was shot five times in the back (with John Giuca's .22 Ruger pistol), then left him to bleed to death on the sidewalk. John Giuca called his brother immediately after the crime took place. Why would he do that if he was in the house? Why aren't any of these FACTS in the article? Now that the truth has been aired on television for the world to see, I fervently hope someone does a badly needed rewrite on this horribly biased article. Mark Fisher and his family deserve better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rapunzel676 ( talk • contribs) 01:03, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
What Rapunzel676 said. This looks like it was written by the convicted man's defense team. The crime is glossed over. Repeated rulings favorable to the state are treated in a perfunctory fashion, while the--unsucessful--arguments against those rulings are detailed aat considerable length. This article should be flagged for bias. Digthepast ( talk) 06:11, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
The stuff about his mother's campaign is fine for the article about his mother, but there was way too much detail. Assertions or insinuations that he is innocent, someone else (a living person!) did it Giuca didn't and that he didn't get a fair trial due to corruption by named living people, can't be stated in Wikipedia's voice. That kind of thing has to be identified as the opinion of named individuals, such as his mother or his lawyer (btw That kind of thing carries more weight if an independent legal figure or jurist can be cited for the view that he did not get a fair trial and is innocent.). Only undisputed facts can be stated in Wikipedia's voice (still need refs of course). He was convicted on a charge of murdering Marc Fisher, information about Fisher is highly relevant. Of course there can be a section called 'Defense arguments' where the case for Giuca being innocent is made. But we can't say and imply that Giuca is innocent throughout the article using Wikipedias voice. Overagainst ( talk) 21:22, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Much of the article seems to be based on primary sources, notably police reports, court documents and youtube clips. Just take a peek at the section accusing the DA of inappropriate connections to Cleary's mother. I'm hesitant to remove it wholesale (though it would be acceptable by wiki policy) because I suspect there's reliable semi-secondary sources to support it, but it should be cleaned up ASAP. It's a borderline WP:BLP violation on the mother and the DA as is. Glaucus ( talk) 23:50, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
When the protected status ends the article should start to be edited collaboratively, that is, any proposed changes being given here first with well sourced references. There may be be alterations to proposed text in the light of criticism or suggestions about proposed text. One editor (Jritts) has edited the article 87 times without ever bothering to discuss things on this talk page, no more of that please. Also, edit summaries should be just that, they are not the place to argue for or against an edit. This talk page is the place for that. Overagainst ( talk) 10:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Please don't think I am attempting to take over the editing of this article. I don't enjoy the time consuming (I'm slow and make a lot of mistakes) work involved in finding refs and composing text. Maybe some of my critics out there could do some work on a section of their own and then put it here for discussion. Publicity surrounding the case, especially pre trial, would be a good subject. Overagainst ( talk) 10:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
As I understand it at his trial Guica pleaded guilty to one charge which was firing a gun during a street confrontation when he was 17. The incident had been written up at the time as him letting off fireworks, but the team of DA's investigators and police that were on the Fisher case arrested him in Florida about this 3 year old incident and charged him with firing a gun. Guica said he was innocent of firing a gun when he was 17, but pleaded guilty to the charge relating to this old incident becuse fighting it could have cost him 15 years.
So he pleaded guilty to get a light sentence with credit for time served in jail. If he had not he could have been acquitted of the murder and robbery and gun charges, but still found guilty of and given 15 years on the unrelated charge relating to the incident that happened when he was 17. Is that a fair summary? Overagainst ( talk) 10:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't think the names of witnesses (or their mothers) should be used in this section. Even though the article is attributing the accusations against a witness to Guica supporters, it's still basically accusing an identified-by-name and not well known person of very serious wrongdoing. In the "'Free John Guica'" campaign section I think you-know-who should be called 'a crucial prosecution witness" or something like that. Overagainst ( talk) 10:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
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Please correct spelling of "recieve" to "receive" Arjayay ( talk) 17:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
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The article is actually about a murder investigation. Alternatively, the Trial of John Giuca might be a better alternative given the notoriety now comes form the conviction being overturned. Geo8rge ( talk) 19:59, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Geo8rge ( talk) 20:06, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
I just deleted a paragraph that did not have an RS source because it had blp implications. If anyone objects, let's discuss it here. -- 2603:7000:2143:8500:5051:8E5:1B15:55B ( talk) 05:38, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
User:Drsammyjohnson--This mass deletion/revert was not appropriate, and lacked any rationale for the many, many changes made - all of sourced information to RSs, and proper MOS editing. [1] The reverted edits were all proper, as can be plainly seen. The revert deletes RS-sourced information. There is zero reason for doing that, and it violates wikipedia rules. Kindly revert. And perhaps User:Materialscientist or User:LightandDark2000 who have edited here and seem seasoned can weigh in.-- 2603:7000:2143:8500:31B5:246A:5626:EDCA ( talk) 00:46, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
<ref>
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2603:7000:2143:8500:1544:2C08:6338:A34A (
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