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http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/32704 TKTKTKTK 05:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
My guess is that those who believe John Fare staged his own death are right. Because my suspicion is that only he would care enough to come onto this page and try to have it removed. Furthermore, given that he has had a lobotomy, his brain is not working so well, which explains this stupid insistence on having this entry removed. But with all due respect John, at this point, you should just let the story go on, it no longer needs your assistance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.140.6.104 ( talk • contribs) 18:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This is still pretty bad, but I have taken a crack at making it more encyclopedic. It's clear this is a work of fiction that has taken on a life of its own as an urban legend among those who want to believe it's true. Jokestress ( talk) 04:31, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
This appears to be Jokestress' first review of the John Fare story. He makes the assumption that it is an urban myth, which it may well be, but offers no proof. To me, that's a a bad going in position without researching the facts, considering it was a major edit. In cleaning up my previous edits, which was an attempt to add information around the embellished Craig version vs. the original Shein version that I bothered to find, some of the comparisons have been conveniently left out. Deliberate or accidental (i.e. did not research to pick the correct option) is hardly 'encyclopedic' as Jokestress wants this article to be. If you're trying to prove the story is an urban myth, deleting facts is not the way to do it, you are, in fact, contributing to the myth. Sadly most of the efforts around trying to prove or dis-prove the Fare story have been around the Craig version. One key point left in by Jokestress is his link to Danny Devos site as one that has the Shein original. It is my blog, http://cyberneticzoo.com/?p=6348 that had the pdf of the original, not Devos. Further, the Devos Link shows the early attempt to contact Isaac Gallery to confirm the performance date of 17 Sep 1968. All performances were on Fridays. My removed notes mention this. The Insect Trust Gazette only had 3 issues published. The published date of the article was in the 1968 issue. The 17 Sep 1968 is not a Friday, but a Tuesday. This is a bad mis-calculation by Craig by attributing the article publish date as being the year of the performance. An understandable mistake, but one which some tried to verify but without success, because the date should have been 1965 for Sep 17 to fall on a Friday. So most likely the editor's of ITG have had Shein's article since 1965 before publishing it in 1968. Issue 2 of ITG was published in the Summer of 65, so the article was not available for Issue 2. I'll leave it at that. As I live in Australia its a little difficult for me to research further. Any further research should be on the original article, not Craigs', as Criags' is the source for the whole mess and confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karakuri ( talk • contribs) 14:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Jokestress, it appears our discussion has to be public. I don't know if I can contact you another way. maybe you can contact me using my contact page on my website already mentioned. Anyway, I feel that your summarizing is ineffectual as , without understanding what's going on here, your selection of what bits to keep doesn't fare well, excuse the pun. The original article on John Fare by Shein was discovered by me, and the pdf is only available from my site, but it can be copied by others. Most, if not all subsequent research and attempts to prove or disprove the Fare story is based on Craig's version. Further, Craig's story is in response to Brown's comments and question, which people have accepted as fact without challenging. Craig's story is not his, but plagurized and embellished. Its taken 40 years (because of Google book imaging and OCRing) for Craig's story to be discredited. So far, discredited only by me as I've seen no other comments or updates on this fact anywhere on the net. So most of this wiki article has now become a sub-plot, a 40 year diversion, over the original story. Although 40 years too late, we have to start over again. Given that you're not going to prove anything, at least separate the two versions, i.e. the 40-year Craig story, and the new start of the original story - don't mix the two which your editing has achieved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karakuri ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 18 May 2012 (UTC) Further, your response above suggests I do not offer the source. The original Shein article found in Insect Gazette is the source, as discovered by me, and a copy put into my blog as the only other way to get it is to buy a copy of an antiquarian bookseller or locate a library that has it. The consensus of publish works has to be clear, but exclusive to the the Brown/Craig version, not the newly discovered Shein version that pre-dates Craig's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karakuri ( talk • contribs) 06:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC) Since I wrote the above, I've had a go at improving the wiki entry but only in TALK here John Fare (sometimes John Charles Fare or John Fahey or John Faré) was purported to be a performance artist whose acts were based around the robotic removal of his body parts. He allegedly committed suicide by decapitation onstage as part of his final act. The story was based around correspondence in the acclaimed Studio International published in 1972. Attempts to prove or disprove the claims made by the enquirer and respondent have lead to John Fare and his story to be generally considered an urban legend.[1] As at January 2012, another, earlier version of the John Fare story was discovered in Insect Trust Gazette and called "The Hand" by N.B. Shein. In reading this version, it becomes obvious that Tim Craig plagiarized, embellished, and made incorrect assumptions when offering the story as his own.
Contents
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• 1 Sources for story • 2 Response • 3 References • 4 External links
[edit]Sources for story The original version was the short story "The Hand" by N.B. Shein, published in Insect Trust Gazette in 1968.[2] In November 1972, Tim Craig published an embellished version of Shein's original in reply to a letter to the editor of Studio International.[3] The reader, Graham Brown, was inquiring about an artist named Fahey who supposedly ended his career by having his head amputated onstage.[4][5][6] In Shein's short story, embellished by Craig, John Charles Fare was born in 1936 in Toronto and attended Forest Hill College. In 1959 he moved to London to study architecture at the Bartlett School of Architecture, but soon left to live in Copenhagen. He was briefly held in a mental health facility for exposing himself in public as performances. After his release, he was re-arrested for gluing objects to a car [only in Craig’s version]. The car's owner, musician and inventor Golni Czervath, did not press charges and befriended Fare [Only in Craig’s version]. The two developed a robotic operating table with painter Gilbert Andoff. The first performance was a lobotomy on Fare in June 1964. By the time Fare performed at the Isaacs Gallery in Toronto on 17 September 1968 [Which is not a Friday. This 1968 derived date Craig gets wrong – it should be Friday 17 September 1965], he "was short one thumb, two fingers, eight toes, one eye, both testicles, and several random patches of skin." The amputated parts were preserved in alcohol. That evening, he had his right hand amputated. Fare's body was fitted with small microphones, which transmitted his pulse and breathing frequency in a distorted fashion. Craig said Fare had performed six more shows between 1968 and 1972. Attempts to confirm aspects of the story have not succeeded. The Isaacs Gallery stated in writing they were not aware of "John Fare" in any shows at their gallery at the time in 1968, which unfortunately we now know was not the correct year which should have been 1965.[7] [edit]Response The story was reprinted in a fanzine made in collaboration with the band Coil in 1987.[7] Fare's alleged performance was emulatedby a Fare impersonator during a Nocturnal Emissions concert in London in 1997.[8]Writing about the event, a British music journalist recounts: "Fare [the impersonator] cuts an eccentric figure. He wears trousers made from zips and has a diagram of a brain tattooed onto his shaven scalp. The performance artist placed his left hand on a chopping board with the fingers spread. Fare’s assistant, Jill Orr, is partially sighted and she slammed an axe between her boyfriend’s pinkies with increasing speed. Eventually the axe severed Fare’s little finger. This was the end of the performance art element within the evening’s entertainment".[9] Fare has been mentioned in connection with body art,[10] industrial culture,[11] and the practices of Rudolf Schwarzkogler and Bob Flanagan, and, like other performance artists, has been seen as a successor of the Christian martyrs.[12] He has also been mentioned in the Guardian in connection with the German artist Gregor Schneider[13] Critic Audrone Zukauskaite examined the durability of this legend in Art Lies magazine.[14] [edit]References 1. ^ Cramer, Florian (2006). Sodom Blogging: Alternative Porn and Aesthetic Sensibility. C'Lick Me: A Netporn Studies Reader. 2. ^ Shein, N.B. (1968) The Hand. Insect Trust Gazette, No. 3, pp. 1-4. 3. ^ Brown, Graham and Craig, Tim (November 1972). Correspondence. Studio International (#949), pp. 160–161. 4. ^ Apocalypse Culture, Adam Parfrey, Feral House, 1991, 2nd ed., pp. 95–96. 5. ^ John Fare 6. ^ Shirley R. Steinberg, Priya Parmar, Birgit Richard - 2006 Contemporary Youth Culture: An International Encyclopedia: Volume 2 - Page 317 7. ^ a b A Coil Magazine, on line, accessed 11-III-2007. 8. ^ Noctunrnal Emissions (2005). NIGEL AYERS / ANDREW LILES Four Compositions. Created for an imaginary performance by the legendary John Fare. Pipkin CDR (2005) 9. ^ Stewart Home in D>Tour magazine, December 1997. Cf. [1]. 10. ^ Schröder, Johannes Lothar. Identität - Überschreitung - Verwandlung. Happenings, Aktionen und Performances von bildenden Künstlern. Münster: LIT, 1990 11. ^ Jugend Kultur Archiv - The Industrial Culture scene 12. ^ AnyBody's Concerns 6(2003) 13. ^ Houses of horror, Gordon Burn, The Guardian, September 22, 2004, accessed on line 11-III-2007. 14. ^ Zukauskaite, Audrone (2008) John Fare - The Scandal of the Missing Body (Parts)., ArtLies, Issue 57, 2008 [edit]External links 1964 – Performance Artist using Robotic Props – John Fare (Canadian) via cyberneticzoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karakuri ( talk • contribs) 07:23, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Karakuri, it's not clear what you would like changed in the article. The information about the date discrepancy does not appear in a reliable source, so we can't add it. The article explains the original story by Shein, the later embellishment by Craig, and the responses. If you have other published facts you'd like to add, please list them below, along with the book, newspaper, or magazine where the fact appears. Jokestress ( talk) 07:46, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I believe the urban legend status of this article is due to the existance of the John Fare wiki entry, and only since the entry originated. Excellent finding of the Richard Boston article, by the way, but it hasn't been referenced before by anyone contributing to this wiki. Everything to date contributing to John Fare as an urban legend has originated here, and only to the Brown/Craig version as published in Studio International. I've owned my copy of SI long before this wiki existed. I've always accepted it as true. Everything stated is plausable. When I went to publish it in my blog, I usually research the web to see what transpired since my last review. You reckon I wasn't surprised by what I found on wiki. That's when I found the Shein version. Further, there is nothing in or about Shein's article that suggested to me it was submitted as fiction. I still stand by that. Sadly, those trying to prove Craig's version have been mis-lead by Craig's embellishments and derivations (eg that date that gets mentioned a lot). So I would like all previous wiki additions to be expressly attributed to the Brown/Craig version. On another tact, your going in position is that "this is clearly a work of fiction..." Would you say that to the Shein version? If so, what is it in Shein's version that suggests to you that it is a piece of fiction or was presented as a piece of fiction? Karakuri ( talk) 07:17, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I personally find your classification of 'fiction' as weak due to where it is published. As well as poetry, it is literature as well, and directed to the artist community. There is a Burroughs article where he descibes how he does his 'cut-and-paste' pieces. Surely not fiction. Shein describes an artistic performance, which I would think as appropriate for such a magazine. To me the article could be fiction, but could also be true. It certainly is plausable, which is where I'm coming from. Does being difficult to prove make it fictional?
One change that I think is warranted is this "Attempts to confirm aspects of the story have not succeeded. Isaacs Gallery founder Avrom Isaacs has stated in writing to Danny Devos that the story of John Fare "has no factual basis," adding "there was no such person as John Fare as far as I know."[10][11]" Only one attempt is offered, and that's the Isaac Gallery one. So does the previous sentence need changing to be singular or qualified by adding the other attempts if they exist. I've already talked about the Isaac Gallery issue re bad dates, but you have ignored them every time. See here for a day calculator http://www.dayofbirth.co.uk/results.aspx?d=17&m=9&y=1965 and http://www.dayofbirth.co.uk/results.aspx?d=17&m=9&y=1968. Karakuri ( talk) 08:36, 20 May 2012 (UTC) I forgot to add that the word 'embellish' is used to describe Craig's letter. Given that he writes as if he was the one who attended the performance, other words should be included to describe what the article truely is? Karakuri ( talk) 08:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
As you're the woman of words, I'll let you choose the additional word to attribute Craig. Re the date, although I mentioned it originally as 'my research', surely it can be treated as a verifiable fact, without the comparison the Shein? For example, if the Isaacs sentence mentioned that Devos tried to verify the alleged performance on Fri 17 Sep 1968, then it could be pointed out that 17 Sep 1968 is actually a Tuesday. Further, you mention 'truth' in your last response, you said earlier that a wiki article doesn't have to be true, just verifiable that it exists as an article. Karakuri ( talk) 09:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Because its mentioned in Craig's (and Shein's) article, I've added the comment that all performances were on a Friday amongst other such comments about Fare's supposed performance characteristics. Karakuri ( talk) 10:03, 20 May 2012 (UTC) Further , I re-read Devos' article. He said that he inquired about 17 sep 1968. Av responds that there were mixed media performance in the late 60's, so a date range is mentioned. I also acknowledge that he says that he is not aware of John Fare. Karakuri ( talk) 10:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC) I also think the date range is relavent. It's roughly 20 years since the supposed performance. If Av was looking up old records, i believe he was looking at 3 years later than when I believe the supposed performance happened. Karakuri ( talk) 10:12, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I think I've gone about as far as I can go. I'll close on this comment. Shein's article is supposedly about her attending a performance, as incredible as it may seem. Whilst I believe it to be plausible (sadly, I never completed my robotics post grad course so i can't claim professional credentials), I'm also aware of performances using trickery, e.g. magicians. Maybe Shein reported on what she was led to believe, not what actually happened. If you can believe Graham Brown (I don't), Fare's ended his life by being beheaded in his last performance. There would have been uproar, a police investigation, lots of press - none are currently known to exist. Another example of a similar performance is that of Mike Parr, as mentioned in my blog. He cut off his arm whilst on stage. I guess many believed it to be real and may still probably still believe it based on what they saw. Unbeknown to most in the performance was that Parr only had one arm, and a fake meat one used as a prop that was cut off. If there is any truth to the Fare story, we have or about to run out of time to prove so. Karakuri ( talk) 10:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Before I get into the main point I want to put forward, I want to make a comment on the Isaacs response you offered above. After lunch with my daughter, she jumped on the computer to see my arguments. She trained as a sculptor and has been involved in a handful of exhibitions. She said that she never saw the gallery owners, as the deal was negotiated by the curator. During the exhibition, the artists themselves had to man the space and lock-up afterwards. Unless the gallery owner wanted to be there e.g. the artist was a notable, they would probably show up only on the opening night. Further, if hyperthetically the show was scheduled to go on and Isaacs knew that a hand was to be severed, I would strongly doubt that he would allow the show to start in the first place given the potential consequences.
Anyway, to my main point. I believe my inclusion of Shein's article has distracted or has the potential to distract from the Urban myth that it is. I tried earlier to remove all my input but you insisted, for some reason or another, to include the Shein reference. Whilst you've more than adequately found contemporary sources that the article exists, there is no such source to link it to this wiki entry, which is all about the SI story. I changed the status to Essay as the Wiki definition says that a short story is fictional. I changed it on the grounds there is no verifiable source that says that it is so, just your opinion. I read all of Wiki information on Literary Journals, which I believe ITG is, and essay covers the content. Even if written as a hoax, the information supposedly provides facts about an artists performance. If you had read it in its day I believe that's how you would interpret it. We now know otherwise, but there is no verifiable source to that effect. My article in my blog has already been ruled invalid by you by citing all the wiki rules e.g. Original research, No published, Only in a blog, not written by a notary person, and has a potential COI, and violates copyright. In my rapid learning curve on wiki rules, I believe you're absolutely right on all accounts. By removing the Shein reference we also remove the contentious words of 'embellished' and 'plagiarised' which has the potential to diminish the urban legend status that the SI article truely deserves. I'm trying to ensure that I do not put any doubt in anyone's mind that the John Fare story is nothing but hoax, an urban myth. Why don't you let me do that? I don't want anyone getting a glimmer of hope that there is any truth in the Fare story whatsoever. Karakuri ( talk) 02:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
There is no contemporary source that links or attributes the Shein / ITG article with the SI version that every other listed source has referenced. Further, I've even removed the attribution from my own web site.
You have only listed one contemporary source, and that is Boston's "The Press we Deserve". You also quote from that book "the recent detailed and quite horrifying account of John Fare's self-mutilation, reprinted from The Insect Trust Gazette." which to me says nothing to suggest it is a story. Further, in a book review of "The Press We Deserve" published in the Tribune Magazine 26th June 1970 it states that " It brings together a number of essayists who have some interesting things to say." .
When I gave you the choice of word to use, I did so because I wondered whether or not you would use one of the 'softer' words, rather than the more punishing 'plagiarised' . Its one thing to pretend something is yours, but Craig changes it to the extent that he was a witness to the event. I don't think 'unattributed' reflects that. When I remove the Shein reference, all that will be removed anyway.
In "The Coil Magazine", which is referenced as as source for Av Issac's response including a statement in writing that the story of John Fare "has no factual basis," adding "there was no such person as John Fare as far as I know."
There is also a second letter there (actually the initial letter) from Avrum Isaacs stating "All that I can remember is a bloody mess". I'm glad its not referenced as someone could construe it as an admission. Av at the time was still in business, so could be damning for his business. So the second letter is produced.
You mention "Speculation about Isaacs' level of involvement is not relevant." I was mearly responding to your comment "I'm pretty sure the dude would remember some guy cutting off his hand in his packed gallery till the day he died, without looking up records.", which is equally a speculation.
Can't you see why I want all my input removed? It will only open it up to live another life rather than be given a glimmer of hope by someone that it is true?
By removing Shein's reference, all the contentiousness I raise disappears.
I've left my keypoint to last, as addressing this single issue, I believe, will resolve the rest.
There is no contemporary source that links or attributes the Shein / ITG article with the SI version that every other listed source has referenced. Further, I've even removed the attribution from my own web site. I can't find a Wiki rule that supports its inclusion. There is not one bit of evidence or reference out there that attributes to the Shein version, despite its now known existence. Karakuri ( talk) 01:30, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
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http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/32704 TKTKTKTK 05:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
My guess is that those who believe John Fare staged his own death are right. Because my suspicion is that only he would care enough to come onto this page and try to have it removed. Furthermore, given that he has had a lobotomy, his brain is not working so well, which explains this stupid insistence on having this entry removed. But with all due respect John, at this point, you should just let the story go on, it no longer needs your assistance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.140.6.104 ( talk • contribs) 18:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This is still pretty bad, but I have taken a crack at making it more encyclopedic. It's clear this is a work of fiction that has taken on a life of its own as an urban legend among those who want to believe it's true. Jokestress ( talk) 04:31, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
This appears to be Jokestress' first review of the John Fare story. He makes the assumption that it is an urban myth, which it may well be, but offers no proof. To me, that's a a bad going in position without researching the facts, considering it was a major edit. In cleaning up my previous edits, which was an attempt to add information around the embellished Craig version vs. the original Shein version that I bothered to find, some of the comparisons have been conveniently left out. Deliberate or accidental (i.e. did not research to pick the correct option) is hardly 'encyclopedic' as Jokestress wants this article to be. If you're trying to prove the story is an urban myth, deleting facts is not the way to do it, you are, in fact, contributing to the myth. Sadly most of the efforts around trying to prove or dis-prove the Fare story have been around the Craig version. One key point left in by Jokestress is his link to Danny Devos site as one that has the Shein original. It is my blog, http://cyberneticzoo.com/?p=6348 that had the pdf of the original, not Devos. Further, the Devos Link shows the early attempt to contact Isaac Gallery to confirm the performance date of 17 Sep 1968. All performances were on Fridays. My removed notes mention this. The Insect Trust Gazette only had 3 issues published. The published date of the article was in the 1968 issue. The 17 Sep 1968 is not a Friday, but a Tuesday. This is a bad mis-calculation by Craig by attributing the article publish date as being the year of the performance. An understandable mistake, but one which some tried to verify but without success, because the date should have been 1965 for Sep 17 to fall on a Friday. So most likely the editor's of ITG have had Shein's article since 1965 before publishing it in 1968. Issue 2 of ITG was published in the Summer of 65, so the article was not available for Issue 2. I'll leave it at that. As I live in Australia its a little difficult for me to research further. Any further research should be on the original article, not Craigs', as Criags' is the source for the whole mess and confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karakuri ( talk • contribs) 14:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Jokestress, it appears our discussion has to be public. I don't know if I can contact you another way. maybe you can contact me using my contact page on my website already mentioned. Anyway, I feel that your summarizing is ineffectual as , without understanding what's going on here, your selection of what bits to keep doesn't fare well, excuse the pun. The original article on John Fare by Shein was discovered by me, and the pdf is only available from my site, but it can be copied by others. Most, if not all subsequent research and attempts to prove or disprove the Fare story is based on Craig's version. Further, Craig's story is in response to Brown's comments and question, which people have accepted as fact without challenging. Craig's story is not his, but plagurized and embellished. Its taken 40 years (because of Google book imaging and OCRing) for Craig's story to be discredited. So far, discredited only by me as I've seen no other comments or updates on this fact anywhere on the net. So most of this wiki article has now become a sub-plot, a 40 year diversion, over the original story. Although 40 years too late, we have to start over again. Given that you're not going to prove anything, at least separate the two versions, i.e. the 40-year Craig story, and the new start of the original story - don't mix the two which your editing has achieved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karakuri ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 18 May 2012 (UTC) Further, your response above suggests I do not offer the source. The original Shein article found in Insect Gazette is the source, as discovered by me, and a copy put into my blog as the only other way to get it is to buy a copy of an antiquarian bookseller or locate a library that has it. The consensus of publish works has to be clear, but exclusive to the the Brown/Craig version, not the newly discovered Shein version that pre-dates Craig's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karakuri ( talk • contribs) 06:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC) Since I wrote the above, I've had a go at improving the wiki entry but only in TALK here John Fare (sometimes John Charles Fare or John Fahey or John Faré) was purported to be a performance artist whose acts were based around the robotic removal of his body parts. He allegedly committed suicide by decapitation onstage as part of his final act. The story was based around correspondence in the acclaimed Studio International published in 1972. Attempts to prove or disprove the claims made by the enquirer and respondent have lead to John Fare and his story to be generally considered an urban legend.[1] As at January 2012, another, earlier version of the John Fare story was discovered in Insect Trust Gazette and called "The Hand" by N.B. Shein. In reading this version, it becomes obvious that Tim Craig plagiarized, embellished, and made incorrect assumptions when offering the story as his own.
Contents
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• 1 Sources for story • 2 Response • 3 References • 4 External links
[edit]Sources for story The original version was the short story "The Hand" by N.B. Shein, published in Insect Trust Gazette in 1968.[2] In November 1972, Tim Craig published an embellished version of Shein's original in reply to a letter to the editor of Studio International.[3] The reader, Graham Brown, was inquiring about an artist named Fahey who supposedly ended his career by having his head amputated onstage.[4][5][6] In Shein's short story, embellished by Craig, John Charles Fare was born in 1936 in Toronto and attended Forest Hill College. In 1959 he moved to London to study architecture at the Bartlett School of Architecture, but soon left to live in Copenhagen. He was briefly held in a mental health facility for exposing himself in public as performances. After his release, he was re-arrested for gluing objects to a car [only in Craig’s version]. The car's owner, musician and inventor Golni Czervath, did not press charges and befriended Fare [Only in Craig’s version]. The two developed a robotic operating table with painter Gilbert Andoff. The first performance was a lobotomy on Fare in June 1964. By the time Fare performed at the Isaacs Gallery in Toronto on 17 September 1968 [Which is not a Friday. This 1968 derived date Craig gets wrong – it should be Friday 17 September 1965], he "was short one thumb, two fingers, eight toes, one eye, both testicles, and several random patches of skin." The amputated parts were preserved in alcohol. That evening, he had his right hand amputated. Fare's body was fitted with small microphones, which transmitted his pulse and breathing frequency in a distorted fashion. Craig said Fare had performed six more shows between 1968 and 1972. Attempts to confirm aspects of the story have not succeeded. The Isaacs Gallery stated in writing they were not aware of "John Fare" in any shows at their gallery at the time in 1968, which unfortunately we now know was not the correct year which should have been 1965.[7] [edit]Response The story was reprinted in a fanzine made in collaboration with the band Coil in 1987.[7] Fare's alleged performance was emulatedby a Fare impersonator during a Nocturnal Emissions concert in London in 1997.[8]Writing about the event, a British music journalist recounts: "Fare [the impersonator] cuts an eccentric figure. He wears trousers made from zips and has a diagram of a brain tattooed onto his shaven scalp. The performance artist placed his left hand on a chopping board with the fingers spread. Fare’s assistant, Jill Orr, is partially sighted and she slammed an axe between her boyfriend’s pinkies with increasing speed. Eventually the axe severed Fare’s little finger. This was the end of the performance art element within the evening’s entertainment".[9] Fare has been mentioned in connection with body art,[10] industrial culture,[11] and the practices of Rudolf Schwarzkogler and Bob Flanagan, and, like other performance artists, has been seen as a successor of the Christian martyrs.[12] He has also been mentioned in the Guardian in connection with the German artist Gregor Schneider[13] Critic Audrone Zukauskaite examined the durability of this legend in Art Lies magazine.[14] [edit]References 1. ^ Cramer, Florian (2006). Sodom Blogging: Alternative Porn and Aesthetic Sensibility. C'Lick Me: A Netporn Studies Reader. 2. ^ Shein, N.B. (1968) The Hand. Insect Trust Gazette, No. 3, pp. 1-4. 3. ^ Brown, Graham and Craig, Tim (November 1972). Correspondence. Studio International (#949), pp. 160–161. 4. ^ Apocalypse Culture, Adam Parfrey, Feral House, 1991, 2nd ed., pp. 95–96. 5. ^ John Fare 6. ^ Shirley R. Steinberg, Priya Parmar, Birgit Richard - 2006 Contemporary Youth Culture: An International Encyclopedia: Volume 2 - Page 317 7. ^ a b A Coil Magazine, on line, accessed 11-III-2007. 8. ^ Noctunrnal Emissions (2005). NIGEL AYERS / ANDREW LILES Four Compositions. Created for an imaginary performance by the legendary John Fare. Pipkin CDR (2005) 9. ^ Stewart Home in D>Tour magazine, December 1997. Cf. [1]. 10. ^ Schröder, Johannes Lothar. Identität - Überschreitung - Verwandlung. Happenings, Aktionen und Performances von bildenden Künstlern. Münster: LIT, 1990 11. ^ Jugend Kultur Archiv - The Industrial Culture scene 12. ^ AnyBody's Concerns 6(2003) 13. ^ Houses of horror, Gordon Burn, The Guardian, September 22, 2004, accessed on line 11-III-2007. 14. ^ Zukauskaite, Audrone (2008) John Fare - The Scandal of the Missing Body (Parts)., ArtLies, Issue 57, 2008 [edit]External links 1964 – Performance Artist using Robotic Props – John Fare (Canadian) via cyberneticzoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karakuri ( talk • contribs) 07:23, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Karakuri, it's not clear what you would like changed in the article. The information about the date discrepancy does not appear in a reliable source, so we can't add it. The article explains the original story by Shein, the later embellishment by Craig, and the responses. If you have other published facts you'd like to add, please list them below, along with the book, newspaper, or magazine where the fact appears. Jokestress ( talk) 07:46, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I believe the urban legend status of this article is due to the existance of the John Fare wiki entry, and only since the entry originated. Excellent finding of the Richard Boston article, by the way, but it hasn't been referenced before by anyone contributing to this wiki. Everything to date contributing to John Fare as an urban legend has originated here, and only to the Brown/Craig version as published in Studio International. I've owned my copy of SI long before this wiki existed. I've always accepted it as true. Everything stated is plausable. When I went to publish it in my blog, I usually research the web to see what transpired since my last review. You reckon I wasn't surprised by what I found on wiki. That's when I found the Shein version. Further, there is nothing in or about Shein's article that suggested to me it was submitted as fiction. I still stand by that. Sadly, those trying to prove Craig's version have been mis-lead by Craig's embellishments and derivations (eg that date that gets mentioned a lot). So I would like all previous wiki additions to be expressly attributed to the Brown/Craig version. On another tact, your going in position is that "this is clearly a work of fiction..." Would you say that to the Shein version? If so, what is it in Shein's version that suggests to you that it is a piece of fiction or was presented as a piece of fiction? Karakuri ( talk) 07:17, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I personally find your classification of 'fiction' as weak due to where it is published. As well as poetry, it is literature as well, and directed to the artist community. There is a Burroughs article where he descibes how he does his 'cut-and-paste' pieces. Surely not fiction. Shein describes an artistic performance, which I would think as appropriate for such a magazine. To me the article could be fiction, but could also be true. It certainly is plausable, which is where I'm coming from. Does being difficult to prove make it fictional?
One change that I think is warranted is this "Attempts to confirm aspects of the story have not succeeded. Isaacs Gallery founder Avrom Isaacs has stated in writing to Danny Devos that the story of John Fare "has no factual basis," adding "there was no such person as John Fare as far as I know."[10][11]" Only one attempt is offered, and that's the Isaac Gallery one. So does the previous sentence need changing to be singular or qualified by adding the other attempts if they exist. I've already talked about the Isaac Gallery issue re bad dates, but you have ignored them every time. See here for a day calculator http://www.dayofbirth.co.uk/results.aspx?d=17&m=9&y=1965 and http://www.dayofbirth.co.uk/results.aspx?d=17&m=9&y=1968. Karakuri ( talk) 08:36, 20 May 2012 (UTC) I forgot to add that the word 'embellish' is used to describe Craig's letter. Given that he writes as if he was the one who attended the performance, other words should be included to describe what the article truely is? Karakuri ( talk) 08:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
As you're the woman of words, I'll let you choose the additional word to attribute Craig. Re the date, although I mentioned it originally as 'my research', surely it can be treated as a verifiable fact, without the comparison the Shein? For example, if the Isaacs sentence mentioned that Devos tried to verify the alleged performance on Fri 17 Sep 1968, then it could be pointed out that 17 Sep 1968 is actually a Tuesday. Further, you mention 'truth' in your last response, you said earlier that a wiki article doesn't have to be true, just verifiable that it exists as an article. Karakuri ( talk) 09:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Because its mentioned in Craig's (and Shein's) article, I've added the comment that all performances were on a Friday amongst other such comments about Fare's supposed performance characteristics. Karakuri ( talk) 10:03, 20 May 2012 (UTC) Further , I re-read Devos' article. He said that he inquired about 17 sep 1968. Av responds that there were mixed media performance in the late 60's, so a date range is mentioned. I also acknowledge that he says that he is not aware of John Fare. Karakuri ( talk) 10:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC) I also think the date range is relavent. It's roughly 20 years since the supposed performance. If Av was looking up old records, i believe he was looking at 3 years later than when I believe the supposed performance happened. Karakuri ( talk) 10:12, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I think I've gone about as far as I can go. I'll close on this comment. Shein's article is supposedly about her attending a performance, as incredible as it may seem. Whilst I believe it to be plausible (sadly, I never completed my robotics post grad course so i can't claim professional credentials), I'm also aware of performances using trickery, e.g. magicians. Maybe Shein reported on what she was led to believe, not what actually happened. If you can believe Graham Brown (I don't), Fare's ended his life by being beheaded in his last performance. There would have been uproar, a police investigation, lots of press - none are currently known to exist. Another example of a similar performance is that of Mike Parr, as mentioned in my blog. He cut off his arm whilst on stage. I guess many believed it to be real and may still probably still believe it based on what they saw. Unbeknown to most in the performance was that Parr only had one arm, and a fake meat one used as a prop that was cut off. If there is any truth to the Fare story, we have or about to run out of time to prove so. Karakuri ( talk) 10:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Before I get into the main point I want to put forward, I want to make a comment on the Isaacs response you offered above. After lunch with my daughter, she jumped on the computer to see my arguments. She trained as a sculptor and has been involved in a handful of exhibitions. She said that she never saw the gallery owners, as the deal was negotiated by the curator. During the exhibition, the artists themselves had to man the space and lock-up afterwards. Unless the gallery owner wanted to be there e.g. the artist was a notable, they would probably show up only on the opening night. Further, if hyperthetically the show was scheduled to go on and Isaacs knew that a hand was to be severed, I would strongly doubt that he would allow the show to start in the first place given the potential consequences.
Anyway, to my main point. I believe my inclusion of Shein's article has distracted or has the potential to distract from the Urban myth that it is. I tried earlier to remove all my input but you insisted, for some reason or another, to include the Shein reference. Whilst you've more than adequately found contemporary sources that the article exists, there is no such source to link it to this wiki entry, which is all about the SI story. I changed the status to Essay as the Wiki definition says that a short story is fictional. I changed it on the grounds there is no verifiable source that says that it is so, just your opinion. I read all of Wiki information on Literary Journals, which I believe ITG is, and essay covers the content. Even if written as a hoax, the information supposedly provides facts about an artists performance. If you had read it in its day I believe that's how you would interpret it. We now know otherwise, but there is no verifiable source to that effect. My article in my blog has already been ruled invalid by you by citing all the wiki rules e.g. Original research, No published, Only in a blog, not written by a notary person, and has a potential COI, and violates copyright. In my rapid learning curve on wiki rules, I believe you're absolutely right on all accounts. By removing the Shein reference we also remove the contentious words of 'embellished' and 'plagiarised' which has the potential to diminish the urban legend status that the SI article truely deserves. I'm trying to ensure that I do not put any doubt in anyone's mind that the John Fare story is nothing but hoax, an urban myth. Why don't you let me do that? I don't want anyone getting a glimmer of hope that there is any truth in the Fare story whatsoever. Karakuri ( talk) 02:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
There is no contemporary source that links or attributes the Shein / ITG article with the SI version that every other listed source has referenced. Further, I've even removed the attribution from my own web site.
You have only listed one contemporary source, and that is Boston's "The Press we Deserve". You also quote from that book "the recent detailed and quite horrifying account of John Fare's self-mutilation, reprinted from The Insect Trust Gazette." which to me says nothing to suggest it is a story. Further, in a book review of "The Press We Deserve" published in the Tribune Magazine 26th June 1970 it states that " It brings together a number of essayists who have some interesting things to say." .
When I gave you the choice of word to use, I did so because I wondered whether or not you would use one of the 'softer' words, rather than the more punishing 'plagiarised' . Its one thing to pretend something is yours, but Craig changes it to the extent that he was a witness to the event. I don't think 'unattributed' reflects that. When I remove the Shein reference, all that will be removed anyway.
In "The Coil Magazine", which is referenced as as source for Av Issac's response including a statement in writing that the story of John Fare "has no factual basis," adding "there was no such person as John Fare as far as I know."
There is also a second letter there (actually the initial letter) from Avrum Isaacs stating "All that I can remember is a bloody mess". I'm glad its not referenced as someone could construe it as an admission. Av at the time was still in business, so could be damning for his business. So the second letter is produced.
You mention "Speculation about Isaacs' level of involvement is not relevant." I was mearly responding to your comment "I'm pretty sure the dude would remember some guy cutting off his hand in his packed gallery till the day he died, without looking up records.", which is equally a speculation.
Can't you see why I want all my input removed? It will only open it up to live another life rather than be given a glimmer of hope by someone that it is true?
By removing Shein's reference, all the contentiousness I raise disappears.
I've left my keypoint to last, as addressing this single issue, I believe, will resolve the rest.
There is no contemporary source that links or attributes the Shein / ITG article with the SI version that every other listed source has referenced. Further, I've even removed the attribution from my own web site. I can't find a Wiki rule that supports its inclusion. There is not one bit of evidence or reference out there that attributes to the Shein version, despite its now known existence. Karakuri ( talk) 01:30, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
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