This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Surely it should mention here that he was undefeated throughout his military career. Centy – – 22:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Dates of events that happened in Britain before 1652 are usually recorded in the Julian calendar (with adjustments for the start of the year), not Gregorian. While dates in continental western Europe are recorded in Gregorian calendar and the continental battles should have Gregorian dates, using the Gregorian calendar for things like Churchill's date of birth is not what is normally done. For example the Britannica: "born May 26, 1650, Ashe, Devon, Eng. died June 16, 1722, Windsor, near London" as does the Educational Services at Blenheim Palace " John Churchill was born on 26th May 1650".
I think Wikipedia should keep to normal practice. Wikipedia should not be innovative, it should not start to develop its own dating standards in this area because it borders on a form of Original research. -- PBS 10:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I move this to talk, as the invisible comment ("Possibly this was not the Duke, but the John Churchill that later, as Sir John, became MP of Bristol for a short time in 1685?") says that this was possibly another John Churchill. It can be moved back once this is ascertained. Or, if the doubt is unreasonable, the invisible comment should be removed. I also fixed in the version below the bibliographical notes. Str1977 (talk) 08:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Notes
What was his rank in the British army? There were no field marshals in Britain before 1736... -- Ghirla -трёп- 14:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anybody have access to the book by Chandler which is cited for this sentence in the "Revolution" section: "Churchill himself had openly encouraged defection to the Orangist cause, but James continued to prevaricate." It seems unlikely that "prevaricate" is the correct word here -- could somebody either change it to what was actually happening, or clarify what James was lying about, to whom, and why? Thanks, Thirdbeach ( talk) 18:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Winston churchill, I suggest, purposely confuses Young & Blackhead's forgery with a separate letter and just because Young's was a forgery does not mean the Camaret Bay letter was. This was found years later in James Stuart's papers in French translation. The original was probably enciphered, probably numerically. Why would James make it up? In fact the attack had been widely blabbed about London & James's agent Barclay probably knew it from Russell, Goldolphin & Shrewsbury, but Marlborough gave the entire order of battle.-- Streona ( talk) 21:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Recently the files below were uploaded and they appear to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think they would be a useful addition, please feel free to include any of them.
All of these are high resolution. I realise there are many images in the article already, but it's up to you. :-) Dcoetzee 06:19, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The painting in this picture is at Blenheim palace isn’t it?-- Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ ( talk) 19:08, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
If no one has any objections I would like to adjust some of the adjectives used to describe Sarah Jennings, the Duchess of Marlborough. She is "hot-tempered", "tactless", and so on, in this article. I would prefer "clever", "witty", "committed", and "passionate". I believe that the characterization of Sarah is sexist, in the the most obvious and blatant sense.
In the standard accounts, Sarah's negative character traits are used to explain the final rupture between her and Queen Anne, and thus the fall of her husband. But that is not historically so. More important are the doubts arising from the Austrian suggestion that Churchill should become the Governor of Belgium, and Godolphin's dilemma to accommodate Whig interest in the Cabinet against Anne's desire. It is true that Sarah and Anne fell out, but it much more likely that this arose out of their evolving personal relationship, in which Anne's and Sarah's traits are equally relevant. I think Churchill's account, and his reproduction of Churchill's letters, sketches this adquately.
Sarah herself in later life explained how boring it was for her to spend countless hours spending time to entertain such a dull woman as Anne, who had limited interests and less conversation.
The standard accounts, such as Churchill and Trevellyan, also say that Sarah was the most intelligent woman in England at the time, whatever that means. The account she made of her conduct at the end of her life shows a clear intelligence aware of her own strengths and failings and those of her husband and her contemporaries. She married her daughters in such a way to establish the Whig party that ruled through the 18th century, and by shrewd investments established a fortune to fund that venture. Most of all, she became the closest friend to a woman who was unlikely to become Queen, yet truly loved and served that woman, and advanced her lowly husband in that service, to found a Dukedom. There may not be another woman in English history who came from such lowly background to achieve so much.
I think the article should be a little more generous in it adjectives in relation to Sarah, and propose to change them, unless there is objection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 1f2 ( talk • contribs) 14:03, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Surprised there isn't a ref to the notable BBC series. Sarah is given a balanced portrait: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Churchills JdelaF ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:08, 28 May 2010 (UTC).
The text is the following: "When Winston departed for Ireland the following year, John enrolled at the Dublin Free School; but by 1664..." but the Dublin Free School was only founded in 1669 (see here, well before it was possible for Churchill to enroll at the school. Ori Redler ( talk) 14:15, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
William and Mary distrusted both Lord and Lady Marlborough's influence as confidants and supporters of Princess Anne (whose claim to the throne was stronger than William's).
It was stronger than William's but weaker than Mary's, since Mary was the elder sister. Since Mary was a co-monarch together with William, the relevance of the remark in the parentheses is unclear.
Top.Squark ( talk) 07:33, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
What should be the primary topics of the phrases "Marlborough" and "Duke of Marlborough"? Tell us what you think:
Talk:Marlborough#Requested_move and
Talk:Duke_of_Marlborough#Requested_move_to_.22Duke_of_Marlborough_.28title.29.22.
Kauffner (
talk)
08:41, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
Can anyone help determine what is correct from two different sources? I have made an edit to the article Glanvilles Wootton (which is a village in Dorset) which states that a farm in the parish there was once the home of the 1st Duke (Earl) of Marlborough. This is based on a statement in Portrait of Dorset (a book by broadcaster and Dorset native Ralph Wightman) which states that "The old manor house of Round Chimneys near Wootton Glanvilles ... was the home of John Churchill who became the first earl of Marlborough, and gives Dorset a strong link with that remarkable family." However in the book Dorset Villages, author and one-time Dorset resident Roland Gant states (regarding monuments in a church in a neighbouring parish): "The second monument is to members of the Winston family who died at the beginning of the seventeenth century. A daughter of one of them, Sarah, married John Churchill from the neighbouring parish of Glanvilles Wootton, and they became grandparents to the first Duke of Marlborough and ancestors of Sir Winston Churchill." Is either of these assertions correct, or are they both correct (if there were several John Churchills in a lineage), or are they both wrong? PaleCloudedWhite ( talk) 22:04, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Why is Marlborough's portrait so big, it doesn't fit with the standard size methinks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.64.227 ( talk) 07:00, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
I changed the description of the 1st Duke of Marlborough's arms today; what was described in the article were the arms of the Spencer-Churchill Dukes of Marlborough, which did not come into use until 1817. The evolution of the arms borne by the Dukes of Marlborough is described in detail in Duke of Marlborough (title). Cyan22 ( talk) 15:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
The article says Winston Churchill has 5 children, and it mentions John, Arabella, Charles and George. So can anyone tell me who is the fifth child in this family? Even she might be not an important figure, her name should be in the article, I think. Michel Djerzinski ( talk) 02:30, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
All sections should have citations particularly when "material [is] challenged or likely to be challenged" ( WP:BURDEN). Two examples of Ancestry sections with full citations are Charles I of England#Ancestry and Charles II of England#Ancestry (both featured articles). The article on Winston Churchill has an ancestry tree with no citations and it has had an {{ unreferenced section}} request for citations since February 2013.
Unlike navigation boxes where sourcing can usually be found in the article to which there are links, there is information contain in ancestry trees that may well not be in the linked articles. The problem is that it is easy to look up an ancestry tree from one of the dozens online sites, but most of them are not are defined as reliable sources on Wikipedia and do not meet the levels of scholarly research needed for such trees.
As an example: In ages when birth was a regular killer of women it was not uncommon for a man to have several wives. It takes only one mistake in the naming of a grandmother (because the mother is incorrectly given as the first wife and not the second one) and seven boxes contain the wrong ancestry, even if every box contains citations that confirms who was married to whom. It is because mistakes such as this are easily made that these trees need accurate precise citations.
-- PBS ( talk) 22:46, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
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Is it a fact that he was created Prince of Mellenburg, and if so, was this a sovereign principality or just the rank of nobility? Our Principality of Mellenburg is extremely stubby and entirely unsourced, and the state's existence has been questioned on its talk page. Google searches for "Prince of Mellenburg" and "Fürst von Mellenburg" turn up a whopping 50ish results (combined), most originating from this biography. To be sure, the actual sources seem to differ. For instance: "It has been suggested that, after Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 (and the Treaty of Rastatt in 1714, between France and the Holy Roman Empire), Mindelheim was exchanged for the county of Mellenburg, Upper Austria, which was then elevated into a principality by Emperor Charles VI. But other sources state simply that Emperor Charles VI wrote apologetic letters to Churchill, and that he did not replace Mindelheim." from Property Law and Imperial and British Titles: the Dukes of Marlborough and the Principality of Mindelheim, p. 200–201, where both views are sourced further. 85.226.205.208 ( talk) 11:49, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
The "Assessment" includes a negative quote from "historian G. K. Chesterton", referring to Marlborough as "Iscariot" for his abandonment of James II. It might be noted that G. K. Chesterton had no training in history and that he had Catholic sympathies to the degree of becoming one himself; George Orwell described him as a Catholic apologist and one may note a tendency in his "Father Brown" stories to portray nearly all his villains as atheists (one of the few exceptions being an Anglican priest). Considering Chesterton's strong religious views, his equation of Marlborough with Judas Iscariot and the implied equation of Catholic James II with Christ (!) certainly does not appear unbiased. The article should at least not describe him as an "historian", which he certainly was not, and it would only be fair to mention his religious views as well.-- Death Bredon ( talk) 14:47, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
Allegiance in the box is misleading, he did not change allegiance just because the name of the state changed as his allegiance was to a monarch. The problem is that Americans tend to assume that because they swear allegiance to a piece of paper "...I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America..." (see Oath of Allegiance (United States)), that everyone has allegiance to a state. To understand the concept in Europe at the end of the 17th early 18th century one has to think medieval. People swore allegiance to a monarch who treated their land holding closer to that of a modern day farmer than to a modern state. Indeed to this day HMG requires an oath of allegiance to the monarch not to the state (see Oath of Allegiance (United Kingdom)). Is there any evidence that John Churchill's allegiance changed from England to Great Britain after 1706? -- PBS ( talk) 11:38, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
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Mary Montague is listed as having died in 1719, and therefore, could not be at his bedside when he died in 1722. This may be an error on which Mary, (possibly his granddaughter). Dates may be wrong on death of Mary as well.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:589:4603:2090:690F:FCC5:7895:8EB9 ( talk) 18:56, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Marlborough is a major figure; this article needs careful review, since much of it reads as if it was copied straight out of Arthur Bryant or WS Churchill.
'When Churchill returned to England at the end of 1678, he found grievous changes in English society. The iniquities of the Popish Plot... etc' This is not modern English.
'For his part, Churchill treated the princess with respectful affection and grew genuinely attached to her, assuming – in his reverence to royalty – the chivalrous role of a knightly champion.[47]' Highly debatable, plus non-neutral POV.
Robinvp11 (
talk)
09:17, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Louisa Creighton, in her Life of Churchill, agrees with the conspiracy theory that has Churchill betray Tollemache. 100.15.127.199 ( talk) 19:32, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Surely it should mention here that he was undefeated throughout his military career. Centy – – 22:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Dates of events that happened in Britain before 1652 are usually recorded in the Julian calendar (with adjustments for the start of the year), not Gregorian. While dates in continental western Europe are recorded in Gregorian calendar and the continental battles should have Gregorian dates, using the Gregorian calendar for things like Churchill's date of birth is not what is normally done. For example the Britannica: "born May 26, 1650, Ashe, Devon, Eng. died June 16, 1722, Windsor, near London" as does the Educational Services at Blenheim Palace " John Churchill was born on 26th May 1650".
I think Wikipedia should keep to normal practice. Wikipedia should not be innovative, it should not start to develop its own dating standards in this area because it borders on a form of Original research. -- PBS 10:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I move this to talk, as the invisible comment ("Possibly this was not the Duke, but the John Churchill that later, as Sir John, became MP of Bristol for a short time in 1685?") says that this was possibly another John Churchill. It can be moved back once this is ascertained. Or, if the doubt is unreasonable, the invisible comment should be removed. I also fixed in the version below the bibliographical notes. Str1977 (talk) 08:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Notes
What was his rank in the British army? There were no field marshals in Britain before 1736... -- Ghirla -трёп- 14:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anybody have access to the book by Chandler which is cited for this sentence in the "Revolution" section: "Churchill himself had openly encouraged defection to the Orangist cause, but James continued to prevaricate." It seems unlikely that "prevaricate" is the correct word here -- could somebody either change it to what was actually happening, or clarify what James was lying about, to whom, and why? Thanks, Thirdbeach ( talk) 18:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Winston churchill, I suggest, purposely confuses Young & Blackhead's forgery with a separate letter and just because Young's was a forgery does not mean the Camaret Bay letter was. This was found years later in James Stuart's papers in French translation. The original was probably enciphered, probably numerically. Why would James make it up? In fact the attack had been widely blabbed about London & James's agent Barclay probably knew it from Russell, Goldolphin & Shrewsbury, but Marlborough gave the entire order of battle.-- Streona ( talk) 21:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Recently the files below were uploaded and they appear to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think they would be a useful addition, please feel free to include any of them.
All of these are high resolution. I realise there are many images in the article already, but it's up to you. :-) Dcoetzee 06:19, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The painting in this picture is at Blenheim palace isn’t it?-- Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ ( talk) 19:08, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
If no one has any objections I would like to adjust some of the adjectives used to describe Sarah Jennings, the Duchess of Marlborough. She is "hot-tempered", "tactless", and so on, in this article. I would prefer "clever", "witty", "committed", and "passionate". I believe that the characterization of Sarah is sexist, in the the most obvious and blatant sense.
In the standard accounts, Sarah's negative character traits are used to explain the final rupture between her and Queen Anne, and thus the fall of her husband. But that is not historically so. More important are the doubts arising from the Austrian suggestion that Churchill should become the Governor of Belgium, and Godolphin's dilemma to accommodate Whig interest in the Cabinet against Anne's desire. It is true that Sarah and Anne fell out, but it much more likely that this arose out of their evolving personal relationship, in which Anne's and Sarah's traits are equally relevant. I think Churchill's account, and his reproduction of Churchill's letters, sketches this adquately.
Sarah herself in later life explained how boring it was for her to spend countless hours spending time to entertain such a dull woman as Anne, who had limited interests and less conversation.
The standard accounts, such as Churchill and Trevellyan, also say that Sarah was the most intelligent woman in England at the time, whatever that means. The account she made of her conduct at the end of her life shows a clear intelligence aware of her own strengths and failings and those of her husband and her contemporaries. She married her daughters in such a way to establish the Whig party that ruled through the 18th century, and by shrewd investments established a fortune to fund that venture. Most of all, she became the closest friend to a woman who was unlikely to become Queen, yet truly loved and served that woman, and advanced her lowly husband in that service, to found a Dukedom. There may not be another woman in English history who came from such lowly background to achieve so much.
I think the article should be a little more generous in it adjectives in relation to Sarah, and propose to change them, unless there is objection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 1f2 ( talk • contribs) 14:03, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Surprised there isn't a ref to the notable BBC series. Sarah is given a balanced portrait: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Churchills JdelaF ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:08, 28 May 2010 (UTC).
The text is the following: "When Winston departed for Ireland the following year, John enrolled at the Dublin Free School; but by 1664..." but the Dublin Free School was only founded in 1669 (see here, well before it was possible for Churchill to enroll at the school. Ori Redler ( talk) 14:15, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
William and Mary distrusted both Lord and Lady Marlborough's influence as confidants and supporters of Princess Anne (whose claim to the throne was stronger than William's).
It was stronger than William's but weaker than Mary's, since Mary was the elder sister. Since Mary was a co-monarch together with William, the relevance of the remark in the parentheses is unclear.
Top.Squark ( talk) 07:33, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
What should be the primary topics of the phrases "Marlborough" and "Duke of Marlborough"? Tell us what you think:
Talk:Marlborough#Requested_move and
Talk:Duke_of_Marlborough#Requested_move_to_.22Duke_of_Marlborough_.28title.29.22.
Kauffner (
talk)
08:41, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
Can anyone help determine what is correct from two different sources? I have made an edit to the article Glanvilles Wootton (which is a village in Dorset) which states that a farm in the parish there was once the home of the 1st Duke (Earl) of Marlborough. This is based on a statement in Portrait of Dorset (a book by broadcaster and Dorset native Ralph Wightman) which states that "The old manor house of Round Chimneys near Wootton Glanvilles ... was the home of John Churchill who became the first earl of Marlborough, and gives Dorset a strong link with that remarkable family." However in the book Dorset Villages, author and one-time Dorset resident Roland Gant states (regarding monuments in a church in a neighbouring parish): "The second monument is to members of the Winston family who died at the beginning of the seventeenth century. A daughter of one of them, Sarah, married John Churchill from the neighbouring parish of Glanvilles Wootton, and they became grandparents to the first Duke of Marlborough and ancestors of Sir Winston Churchill." Is either of these assertions correct, or are they both correct (if there were several John Churchills in a lineage), or are they both wrong? PaleCloudedWhite ( talk) 22:04, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Why is Marlborough's portrait so big, it doesn't fit with the standard size methinks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.64.227 ( talk) 07:00, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
I changed the description of the 1st Duke of Marlborough's arms today; what was described in the article were the arms of the Spencer-Churchill Dukes of Marlborough, which did not come into use until 1817. The evolution of the arms borne by the Dukes of Marlborough is described in detail in Duke of Marlborough (title). Cyan22 ( talk) 15:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
The article says Winston Churchill has 5 children, and it mentions John, Arabella, Charles and George. So can anyone tell me who is the fifth child in this family? Even she might be not an important figure, her name should be in the article, I think. Michel Djerzinski ( talk) 02:30, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
All sections should have citations particularly when "material [is] challenged or likely to be challenged" ( WP:BURDEN). Two examples of Ancestry sections with full citations are Charles I of England#Ancestry and Charles II of England#Ancestry (both featured articles). The article on Winston Churchill has an ancestry tree with no citations and it has had an {{ unreferenced section}} request for citations since February 2013.
Unlike navigation boxes where sourcing can usually be found in the article to which there are links, there is information contain in ancestry trees that may well not be in the linked articles. The problem is that it is easy to look up an ancestry tree from one of the dozens online sites, but most of them are not are defined as reliable sources on Wikipedia and do not meet the levels of scholarly research needed for such trees.
As an example: In ages when birth was a regular killer of women it was not uncommon for a man to have several wives. It takes only one mistake in the naming of a grandmother (because the mother is incorrectly given as the first wife and not the second one) and seven boxes contain the wrong ancestry, even if every box contains citations that confirms who was married to whom. It is because mistakes such as this are easily made that these trees need accurate precise citations.
-- PBS ( talk) 22:46, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
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Is it a fact that he was created Prince of Mellenburg, and if so, was this a sovereign principality or just the rank of nobility? Our Principality of Mellenburg is extremely stubby and entirely unsourced, and the state's existence has been questioned on its talk page. Google searches for "Prince of Mellenburg" and "Fürst von Mellenburg" turn up a whopping 50ish results (combined), most originating from this biography. To be sure, the actual sources seem to differ. For instance: "It has been suggested that, after Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 (and the Treaty of Rastatt in 1714, between France and the Holy Roman Empire), Mindelheim was exchanged for the county of Mellenburg, Upper Austria, which was then elevated into a principality by Emperor Charles VI. But other sources state simply that Emperor Charles VI wrote apologetic letters to Churchill, and that he did not replace Mindelheim." from Property Law and Imperial and British Titles: the Dukes of Marlborough and the Principality of Mindelheim, p. 200–201, where both views are sourced further. 85.226.205.208 ( talk) 11:49, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
The "Assessment" includes a negative quote from "historian G. K. Chesterton", referring to Marlborough as "Iscariot" for his abandonment of James II. It might be noted that G. K. Chesterton had no training in history and that he had Catholic sympathies to the degree of becoming one himself; George Orwell described him as a Catholic apologist and one may note a tendency in his "Father Brown" stories to portray nearly all his villains as atheists (one of the few exceptions being an Anglican priest). Considering Chesterton's strong religious views, his equation of Marlborough with Judas Iscariot and the implied equation of Catholic James II with Christ (!) certainly does not appear unbiased. The article should at least not describe him as an "historian", which he certainly was not, and it would only be fair to mention his religious views as well.-- Death Bredon ( talk) 14:47, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
Allegiance in the box is misleading, he did not change allegiance just because the name of the state changed as his allegiance was to a monarch. The problem is that Americans tend to assume that because they swear allegiance to a piece of paper "...I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America..." (see Oath of Allegiance (United States)), that everyone has allegiance to a state. To understand the concept in Europe at the end of the 17th early 18th century one has to think medieval. People swore allegiance to a monarch who treated their land holding closer to that of a modern day farmer than to a modern state. Indeed to this day HMG requires an oath of allegiance to the monarch not to the state (see Oath of Allegiance (United Kingdom)). Is there any evidence that John Churchill's allegiance changed from England to Great Britain after 1706? -- PBS ( talk) 11:38, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
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Mary Montague is listed as having died in 1719, and therefore, could not be at his bedside when he died in 1722. This may be an error on which Mary, (possibly his granddaughter). Dates may be wrong on death of Mary as well.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:589:4603:2090:690F:FCC5:7895:8EB9 ( talk) 18:56, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Marlborough is a major figure; this article needs careful review, since much of it reads as if it was copied straight out of Arthur Bryant or WS Churchill.
'When Churchill returned to England at the end of 1678, he found grievous changes in English society. The iniquities of the Popish Plot... etc' This is not modern English.
'For his part, Churchill treated the princess with respectful affection and grew genuinely attached to her, assuming – in his reverence to royalty – the chivalrous role of a knightly champion.[47]' Highly debatable, plus non-neutral POV.
Robinvp11 (
talk)
09:17, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Louisa Creighton, in her Life of Churchill, agrees with the conspiracy theory that has Churchill betray Tollemache. 100.15.127.199 ( talk) 19:32, 19 June 2020 (UTC)