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'Don' being Italian for 'Mister' is not correct: it is true that in Southern Italy people of station are often called 'don', following an ancient tradition that I guess was introduced by Spaniards, but in this case - and more generally, nation-wide 'don' is the usual honorific for a priest. -- Tridentinus 08:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC).
Orginally, Don started as the initials D.O.N. which in Spanish stood for "De Origen Noble", meaning "Of Noble Origin". In time it came to become simply a sign or respect. It is considered an honor to be called a Don and is the reason why all members of the Spanish nobility also use "Don" in their offical names. -—Preceding unsigned comment added by Csucre ( talk • contribs)
I can't speak about Spanish... but I have in front of me the highly authoritative Devoto-Oli dictionary of Italian, confirming that don (at least as we Italians use it) is the truncated form of 'donno', coming from Latin 'dominus'. 'Don' is explained as 'honorific tributed to many of the regular clergy and secular ecclesiastics; among laics, reserved once to only princes and high nobility of Spain and Portugal, it later extended, also in Italy, to any man of station, not tecessarily noble, especially in the South where, today, it mostly denotes respect, reverence'. In fact, I still stand by my original edit of the noun explanation, and as a native speaker of Italian (and we're discussing an Italian here) consider the current explanation in the article totally wrong: it is not for elders only, nor for all elders, but instead is what all regular priests (by regular I mean, not bishops, cardinals and so forth) regardless of age. In fact, if no one opposes, I'd like to return to my formulation - unless, of course, someone else can come out with a precise yet more elegant one. -- Tridentinus 17:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
How did Don Bosco start his work? (question asked by User:84.67.217.153, moving from article page).
It has been postulated that Don Bosco was driven by homosexual urges, in particular directed towards the boys he cared for, but never consummated. Saint Joseph Cafasso, his confessor, said of him: "Se non fosse che lavora per la gloria di Dio, direi che è un uomo pericoloso, più per quel che non lascia trasparire, che per quel che ci dà a conoscere di sé. Don Bosco, insomma, è un enigma" (If it were not for his work for the glory of God, I would say that he is a dangerous man, more for what he does not allow to be seen than for what he lets us know about himself. Don Bosco, thus, is an enigma.)
His educational principle was that the educator must love the boy, must make the boy feel that he is loved, and by means of this pedagogical love guide him in the proper direction (towards Christian values). The ideal virtue that Don Bosco preached was that of chastity, which has given reason to his biographers to further suspect that it was a result of his sublimation of the sexual impulse. In his relations with the boys he felt compelled (or, some have claimed, "obsessed") to be close to them in order to protect them from falling prey to homosexual or masturbatory temptations.
While he had very tender feelings towards his boys, he had an absolute horror of the female touch. It is told of him that once at the barbershop, realizing it was the barber's wife who was soaping him, he ran out into the street covered with suds. His last written words were "I giovanetti sono la delizia di Gesù e Maria" (The youths are the delight of Jesus and Mary).
The Catholic hierarchy, while distancing itself from the more pederastic nuances of Don Bosco's teachings, has not accepted the homosexual explanation for his motivations. Giacomo Dacquino, professor at the Università Pontificia Salesiana di Torino denonced as "unscientific" homosexual or pederastic interpretations of Don Bosco's work. [1]
==Analysis of his character and motivations==
It has been postulated that Don Bosco was driven by homosexual urges, in particular directed towards the boys he cared for, but never consummated. Saint Joseph Cafasso, his confessor, said of him: "Se non fosse che lavora per la gloria di Dio, direi che è un uomo pericoloso, più per quel che non lascia trasparire, che per quel che ci dà a conoscere di sé. Don Bosco, insomma, è un enigma" (If it were not for his work for the glory of God, I would say that he is a dangerous man, more for what he does not allow to be seen than for what he lets us know about himself. Don Bosco, thus, is an enigma.)
His educational principle was that the educator must love the boy, must make the boy feel that he is loved, and by means of this pedagogical love guide him in the proper direction (towards Christian values). The ideal virtue that Don Bosco preached was that of chastity, which has given reason to his biographers to further suspect that it was a result of his sublimation of the sexual impulse. In his relations with the boys he felt compelled (or, some have claimed, "obsessed") to be close to them in order to protect them from falling prey to homosexual or masturbatory temptations.
While he had very tender feelings towards his boys, he had an absolute horror of the female touch. It is told of him that once at the barbershop, realizing it was the barber's wife who was soaping him, he ran out into the street covered with suds. His last written words were "I giovanetti sono la delizia di Gesù e Maria" (The youths are the delight of Jesus and Mary).
The Catholic hierarchy, while distancing itself from the more pederastic nuances of Don Bosco's teachings, has not accepted the homosexual explanation for his motivations. Giacomo Dacquino, professor at the Università Pontificia Salesiana di Torino denonced as "unscientific" homosexual or pederastic interpretations of Don Bosco's work. [2]
However, in a comment made shortly before his death, Don Bosco himself seems to be aware that his actions may be seen in a homoerotic light [referring to himself in the third person]: "Ti manifesto adesso un timore (...), temo che qualcuno dei nostri abbia ad interpretar male l'affezione che don Bosco ha avuto per i giovani, e che dal mio modo di confessarli vicino vicino, si lasci trasportare da troppa sensualità verso di loro, e pretenda poi giustificarsi col dire che don Bosco faceva lo stesso, sia quando loro parlava in segreto, sia quando li confessava. So che qualcuno si lascia guadagnare dal cuore, e ne temo pericoli e danni spirituali." (I will reveal to you now a fear . . . I fear that one of ours may come to misinterpret the affection that Don Bosco had for the young, and from the way that I received their confession - really, really close - and may let himself get carried away with too much sensuality towards them, and then pretend to justify himself by saying that Don Bosco did the same, be it when he spoke to them in secret, be it when he received their confession. I know that one can be conquered by way of the heart, and I fear dangers, and spiritual damage.) This comment has led historian Giovanni Dall'orto to suggest that Don Bosco himself felt he had gotten a bit closer to his protegees that perhaps he should have.
Despite his own opinion that Don Bosco never gave free rein to his alleged desires for the boys around him, Dall'orto reports that many years after having published his research on the topic, h was approached by a resident of Torino who explained his own distaste - and that of his family - for the Church by the fact that his grandfather had been a pupil of Don Bosco and had been sexually molested by him. From that, he claimed, came his hate of an institution which had dared to make a child molester into a saint.
I sat down last night and went through the 'supporting documents' provided by Haiduc. What I found only strengthens my opposition to the insertion of the text about pedophilia and pederasty. Let me start with the neutrality of this whole effort to insert the language.
Not NPOV
First, the language was not NPOV, and I don't think that if you look at Haiduc's record of editing you would judge that he is a neutral person who is trying to bring light to a subject. I suppose that he is an advocate who is trying to put forth his point of view – and it is not neutral. If you contrast his sources with the ones used to develop the article in the first place there is a marked difference, the Catholic Encyclopedia versus a collection of advocate websites.
Potential plagarism
Plagiarism crosses language boundaries, and the first couple of versions of what Haiduc wrote bordered on plagiarism of text from these two sites:
Unreliable Sources The final proposed text is still speculative and should not be included because:
In summary:
If something that accuses a saint of being a pederast and a pedophile, it should not be included unless it has unimpeachable sources and documentation.
-- † Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 07:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
There is no consensus. I did a quick summation, please feel free to change your 'vote' if I got it wrong.
The supporting documents on the pederasty don't justify including the text. evrik 21:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is in need of severe pruning and NPOVing. Articles on religious topics are prone to two extremes — either extremely devotional and hagiographic or extremely hostile and abusive. Neither is acceptable under NPOV. This article is in the former category. In part that is because of its Catholic Encyclopaedia origins. Older sourcebooks, whether the CE, Brittanica or elsewhere, tended to use flowerly, highly POV language with less nuance than is applied today. Many articles have used the Catholic Encyclopaedia. I've used it in a couple. It is extremely good, but some of its articles do fall into the trap of reading like Catholic propaganda pieces, or prolonged press releases. Since Vatican II even the Church has moved away from hagiographic Catholicism with the abandonment of the concept of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
This article, in its current form, needs fundamental professional writing to remove its overwhelming hagiographic tone. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 19:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
The single biggest refence work is in Italian. Without better documentation, this addition is not substantial enough to justify including. Most of the text come from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Calling a saint a pederast requires more proof. It is not |NPOV. I am asking that the page be locked until something gets worked out. evrik 03:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Evrik, There is no need for page protection when people are discussing things and the converstion is civil. Here is the disputed section:
It looks like all the information in these two paragraphs comes from the citation which is in Italian. Are you questioning whether the translation fairly represents the original, whether Dall'Orto is a reputable scholar, or whether the claims are unbalanced or out of context? Often, an effective way to handle this kind of NPOV dispute is not to remove the text, but to counter the claim with another citation that challenges the first opinion. It seems that the citation does not claim anything that Don Bosco himself did not imply. It says, "Bosco has been the subject of speculation about whether or not he had sublimated pederastic tendencies", which I am assuming is the most problematic sentence. If Dall'Orto is a good citation, and Dall'Orto speculates about pederastic tendencies, then this would be an NPOV sentence. Resolving this requires everyone to talk specifically about the text and the citations. -- Samuel Wantman 07:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to think some more about a suitable compromise. evrik 17:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
It's been nearly 2 months under protection - to me, this is such a long time as to be disruptive to the whole idea of Wikipedia. It looks like some good discussion has taken place here - I'll unprotect soon unless someone can think of a reason why you all can't play civilly. ( ESkog)( Talk) 02:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Who edited and inputed the initial NPOV comments?? Pkazz 19:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure about your qustion. If you're talking about the comments at the heart of the current discussion, it would be this ] at 22:09, 21 February 2006 by Haiduc. The article was poorly written from the beginning - is that what you're referring to? evrik 20:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
In my view, the extension of the article proposed by Haiduc should not be included. It does not present sufficient evidence. I’ll look at the sources he uses, especially the key one: an article by Giovanni Dall’Orto on the Italian website Cultura Gay. Haiduc’s extension links to that one.
Three sources are cited by Haiduc in support of including the material on the homosexuality of Don Bosco:
The two citations of Among men, among women are taken verbatim from Giovanni Dall’Orto’s bio of Don Bosco on the site Cultura Gay ( http://www.culturagay.it/cg/biografia.php?id=14#2a). That is based on the last-cited work of these three.
It appears that the best place to begin would be Dall’Orto’s article. It is certainly the most accessible. Before that, I’ll look at other sources.
I found a fuller citation for Among men, among women in the University of Amsterdam online catalog ( http://visscher.ic.uva.nl:8080): Among men, among women : sociological and historical recognition of homosocial arrangements / [eds.: Mattias Duyves et al.; transl. by Felix Barner et al.]
Unfortunately, I could find no list of contributions, nor any reference to the conference contributions of Pennings and Sanders. As Dall’Orto cites them, they could fit in this work of 611 pages.
That library has works by both Pennings (1960-) and Sanders (1961-). It lists 6 titles by Pennings on sociological research, none matching the “Don Bosco breathes his last: the scenario of Catholic social clubs in the Fifties and Sixties” article. Five of the works are in Dutch, one in English. Stephanus Clement Sanders (1961-) accounts for 8 titles, all in Dutch. They are travelogues, novels and essays, one on lesbians. None matches the cited article “A phenomenon’s bankruptcy: Don Bosco and the question of coeducation”.
Google searches for these titles by these authors yield nothing.
Dall’Orto’s article originally appeared as the contribution in Haiduc’s third citation. For Dall’Orto’s comments on his several contributions on Italian figures in Who’s Who in Gay and Lesbian History, see Gay.It ( http://www.gay.it/channels/view.php?ID=10845). See Fisica / Mente for a version with more pictures ( http://www.fisicamente.net/index-809.htm). Dall’Orto is an activist and writer for gay causes in Italy. See his bio (#2 of 20) on Cultura Gay http://www.culturagay.it/cg/autore.php?id=2.
A source oft cited by Dall’Orto is Guido Ceronetti, Albergo d’Italia (Hotel Italy) (Torino, Einaudi 1985). The link to that from Dall’Orto’s article on Cultura Gay is broken. A Google search for “Ceronetti Albergo d’Italia” hits several German-language travelogues with the same title. Einaudi’s web site knows about the book. Search for it ( http://www.einaudi.it/einaudi/ita/catalogo/catalogo.jsp) by ISBN = 8806589741; it’s “fuori listino”, out of stock. Bookfinder ( http://www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/Albergo_Italia/8806589741/) can’t find anybody selling it. The section in question, “Elementi per una anti-agiografia” (pp. 122-133), Dall’Orto reports as being based on pre-1983 articles by Ceronetti in the Turinese daily La Stampa. That paper’s web site has archive researches only for the last 30 days.
See a short bio on Ceronetti at Italia Libri ( http://www.italialibri.net/autori/ceronettig.html).
Dall’Orto cites attempts by the Catholic Church to suppress the Don Bosco gay story in Sergio Quinzio, Domande sulla Santità (Questions of Holiness) Edizioni Gruppo Abele, Torino 1986), pp. 31-39. Domande is listed among his works on that bio, but Bookfinder ( http://www.bookfinder.com/) can’t find it. Google can: it’s out of print, unavailable at Libreria Universitaria ( http://www.libreriauniversitaria.it/goto/author_Quinzio+Sergio/shelf_BIT/Quinzio_Sergio.html) ISBN = 8876700595. Full title: Domande sulla Santità: Don Bosco, Cafasso, Cottolengo.
Dall’Orto does not give a direct reference for Moretti’s analysis of Don Bosco’s handwriting, but quotes it from Ceronetti. See a quick bio of Moretti at Istituto Grafologico "Girolamo Moretti" (Girolamo Moretti Institute of Handwriting Analysis) ( http://www.grafologia.it/girolamo_moretti.htm). Giuseppe Cosco ( http://cosco-giuseppe.tripod.com/grafologia/santi.htm) quotes and comments on the same passage, reaching a different conclusion. It’s from G. Moretti, I santi dalla loro scrittura (The Saints From Their Writing) (Ediz. Paoline, Roma 1975). According to Cosco, Moretti presents all those saints’ handwriting as a window into their struggles against their impulses. He has a similar analysis by Moretti of St. Veronica Giuliani (17th c). Dall’Orto, instead, presents Moretti’s analysis as being made on an anonymous subject.
Here is a summary of Dall’Orto’s article.
The homosexuality of Don Bosco is a long discussed “secret”; he’s like a stock character in a morality play (“di Pulcinella”). The Church has tried to suppress it. None of the sources cited (with the exception of an accusation reported in note 4, which Dall’Orto characterizes as dubious) has ever called into question Don Bosco’s chastity. It’s all about his suppressed homosexual or pederastic tendencies.
Then follows a section on the Church’s hypocritical stance toward homosexuals.
Then comes evidence from Don Bosco’s handwriting that he had a thoroughly bad character, with homosexual tendencies, as analyzed by Fr Girolamo Moretti. Dall’Orto also brings forward as evidence the assertion of St Joseph Cafasso, Bosco’s spiritual director until 1860, that he was “an enigma”, a dangerously secretive person if not known to be working for the glory of God.
Dall’Orto then tries to show that Don Bosco not only had homosexual tendencies, but was also a pedophile. He cites Ceronetti’s work where it contrasts the famous photo of Don Bosco hearing Paolo Albera’s confession, with his fear to be touched by women.
In spite of all this, Dall’Orto gives Don Bosco credit for doing useful work for the young boys in his care. His priestly title and garb were barriers to giving in to his impulses, as can be seen by his always signing himself Father John Bosco. These factors allowed Don Bosco to be close to youth, yet not fall into temptation. The article continues at length about the dangers of such a repression.
It ends with a defense of Don Bosco against pedophilic tendencies by Giacomo Dacquino, a psychology professor at the Salesian University in Rome. Dacquino is cited with two arguments: (1) one cannot deduce pedophilic tendencies from sublimated love and tenderness toward youth, and (2) Don Bosco consistently opposed homosexual acts. Dall’Orto discounts second Dacquino’s defense, saying that Don Bosco’s opposition does not prove he wasn’t a pedophile. Then Dall’Orto makes his own argument from a fact recalled by Dacquino: Don Bosco was worried some of his own Salesians might look at his own visible tenderness to youth, and use that to justify their own excessive sensuality toward them. For Dall’Orto, this is an admission “that he went too far”, and that such a defense of heterosexuality is an admission that makes any further accusation superfluous.
Dall’Orto’s article is 3754 words long. It is entitled “Biografia di Don Giovanni Bosco”. Only 399 of those words are in paragraphs directly dealing with Don Bosco’s life; the rest are analysis and opinion. Dall’Orto is careful to label his analyses and opinions as such.
Summarizing the scant evidence brought forward by Dall’Orto:
Summarizing the interpretation of the evidence:
It seems to be that the bulk of this article is unsourced, uncited and unverifiable. The comments regarding his attraction to minors, oddly, seems to be the only part of this article that's referenced, and that keeps getting deleted! I think some commentators have taken the discussion too personally - we need to remain objective and non-partisan if we are to create a useful and balanced article. Contaldo80 ( talk) 11:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I just did a survey of Wikipedia articles on Don Bosco in other languages, with respect to homosexuality.
The Italian article is at http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Giovanni_Bosco. The article makes no mention of his possible homosexuality; there is no discussion.
The Spanish ( http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Juan_Bosco) makes no mention in either the article or the discussion.
The Dutch ( http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bosco), French ( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bosco) and German ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bosco) are like the Italian: no mention in the article, no discussion started.
All of these seem to have a less hagiographic tone than ours, some only slightly so.
Nobody has started a Portuguese article or discussion on Don Bosco.
Perhaps the most complete is the Italian. Jmrasor
I have some text in my sandbox [ [4]] for an article. See if I'm on the right track with this. Jmrasor
Is including a prayer here NPOV? Do you think a Islamic or Buddhist reader could consider it a serious encyclopedic material? I decisively vote for its deletion. Let me know. Attilios 21:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
How can you be a Protestant and an atheist at the same time?--Hailey 18:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Think of it as being by god’s will and therefore very easily. (HE or SHE does the difficult bit if there is one.) Ian Spackman 18:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is a disater! It NEEDS to be rewritten as soon as possible. Please pledge for it being unprotected. Attilios 10:22, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I’ve certainly come across some pretty awful disputed pages, where the content tends to get buried under “Yes he is”, “No he isn’t” arguments. Berlusconi comes to mind. But at least there is a debate there, and if the participants are intelligent enough to cite good sources you can usually go off-site and make your mind up free from the shrillness of the immediate noise.
Freezing a page strikes me as very odd, though. What does it say? That the current version is so wonderfully good that it cannot be allowed to be corrupted by all of those mindless vandals out there? (Us, that is to say.) I am puzzled. I have no views on Don Bosco, by the way: I know nothing about him really. But I wouldn’t at all mind being enlightened: I’m just not going to bother to read a page that has been put under such a rigid regime of censorship. It seems like vandalism from above if you see what I mean! (By above I mean admins, not deities…) — Ian Spackman 20:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
As there seems to be a consensus to remove the prayer, and its inclusion was blatently contrary to NPOV, I've removed it. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 22:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Yet more paranoia. A locked version is a stable version to stop edit wars. If there is a consensus to make a change while a page is stable that change can be and is regularly made by whichever admin is passing. There was a consensus to remove that prayer — how it was ever allowed to be added in beats me. Prayers are never added in to articles. They fundamentally breach NPOV rules. As there was a consensus I implemented it. With paranoia like yours, is it no wonder this page is the source of edit wars and ends up locked? If you want it unlocked, request it. The protected template tells you how. In the meantime stop whinging and try to work with people. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 23:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Where there are constant edit wars and reversion wars, as was the case here, it is normal to lock it by imposing protection (full protection if it involves full users, semiprotected if it being targeted for vandalism and edit wars by IPs and new a/cs created to fight about the article). A stable version is locked and then people are asked to calm down. Any user can request unprotection. Sometimes the lock may only be for an hour or two, or a day or two. Sometimes things get left locked due to an oversight. I am not getting involved in this. All I did was notice that whatever about other lack of agreements, one thing there was agreement on was that that prayer should not be there, as indeed it should never have been left there to start off with. As there was a consensus there I deleted it. If you feel that the article has been protected too long, and it does seem to have been locked a long time, simply ask an admin to remove the protection or request unprotection through the template. That is standard procedure.
Protecting articles is standard on WP. Bitter reversion battles where articles are reverted constantly, minute by minute or hour by hour, can undermine the credibility of the entire project. Hundreds of thousands of articles have been locked over the years, and at any one time, given the various natures of protection hundreds may be protected in some form. If you want to discuss a version prior to unlocking, use a draft version at say Saint John Bosco/draft to produce a mockup of an alternative version which people can comment on. People need to remember three things
I have added the novena back in to bring it in line with the Infobox Guidelines. -- evrik 19:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
As you will see if you examine the other language versions, it is not at all mandatory to use his religious title as title of this article. As a matter of fact I would suggest that it skews the discussion unnecessarily. I don't know about you, but I am documenting the life of a man, not a religious construct. Nor is the articles on, say, Jonas Salk titled "Doctor Jonas Salk." Let's keep things secular here. Haiduc 13:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the point in renaming the article. The name is of no consequence. The issue is the writing of the article. Don't get sidetracked into a pointless debate about names. The important issue is content. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 19:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Who the heck wrote "He zipped through the lower grades and eventually graduated with honors in 1835". Zipped??? We are supposed to be writing an encyclopaedia here, not the Beano. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 23:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Irrespective of issues over content, this article is in severe need of copy editing. Much of its English is sub-encyclopaedic, to put it mildly. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 23:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps. To give just some examples of the appalling quality of the writing.
They are just a few examples of the tabloid-standard language. Quite separately, the content fails to offer and detailed critique of Bosco, his role in Italian Catholicism, the context in which he lived. It does not touch of the criticisms made of his ministry. Overall it makes him sound like one of The Muppets, not as someone the Roman Catholic Church thought worthy of canonisation. In terms of content, tone, layout and language it is an extremely weak article that offers the reader no insight and contributes little to an understanding of the man. As it stands this article is barely pass grade, chronically below even the minimum standard required for an encyclopaedia article. It does him, the reader and Wikipedia no service whatsoever.
Frankly the article needs to be totally dumped and a professional article written instead. If we asked for peer review, the readers brought in would only laugh (or cringe) when they saw it. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 21:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I think this article will never be encyclopedic until Catholic users will be stuck with the hagiographic version currently on line. -- Attilios 18:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. My last post was intented to shackle a bit waters here, but it seems none was even a bit offended... but I'm sure if I'd changed something in the article a lot of people would rage. My proposal is: would you agree if I'd translated a new article from the Italian version, which looks fair good, and leave my work after opened to your copyedit and addition of everything you feel lacking? -- Attilios 18:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Let me know.
I agree with Mamalujo. It's not that bad. -- South Philly
The result of the debate was No consensus. — Wknight94 ( talk) 17:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
John Bosco → Giovanni Bosco – It is his real name Haiduc 21:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
I am changing the sentence "In recognition of his work with disadvantaged youths, he was canonized in 1944." The title of saint is not an award the Church issues for particular merit. See Saint for more info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tpellman ( talk • contribs)
The ‘prayer’ section of the infobox currently reads:
This is decidedly interesting, but decidedly odd. Firstly, of course, it is not a prayer but rather a description of the manner in which the prayer is said. Secondly, if true, it must mean that Salesians the world over take the last month of January off work in order to do 24/7 praying, apparently without pausing for sleep, and then (saving annual miracles) a few more days or weeks recovering from their exertions. Thirdly there is no link to the text of this prayer which, one feels, must have made it into internet-friendly record books. I do hope that the copy as it stands is not nonsense—religious fanaticism is a great source of inspiration and amusement. But I think that something as sheerly bizarre as this should languish awhile on the talk page before being reinstated in all its wonderful strangeness in the encyclopedia proper. Please do sanity checks. (Moving it here for the meantime.) — Ian Spackman 14:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
We describe him in the infobox as Holy Hierarch (whatever that means – perhaps there should be a link). But in the text we make a point of saying that he is ‘the only Saint with the title "Father and Teacher of Youth"’. This must be a matter of simple, verifiable fact. Anyone feeling interested enough to fix it? — Ian Spackman 20:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Your insistence to insert the prayer here is making this encyclopedia ridiculous. This is neither Catholic Encyclopedia, nor Wikisource. A few poets here have their poems cited for entire, and especially in the infobox: it is clear that to be so stick towards a prayer has other reasons. -- Attilios 15:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Those of you busy covering up research into the homosexual aspects of John Bosco's life and activities should know that I expect soon to receive materials presented at the "About Men, About Women" conferences in Amsterdam dealing with precisely these aspects, materials also cited by Giovanni Dall'Orto in his study. At that point we will have to have a separate section addressing these issues, as well as any coverup by the Catholic Church. Haiduc 18:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The guy who did this change: (cur) (last) 22:49, 20 April 2007 201.192.84.242 (Talk) (11,193 bytes) ("some sources speculate on possible pederastic motivations" is more balanced, and puts the idea of Bosco's "repressed" pederasty in the light it deserves until there is solid consensus.) ... is me, Carlvincent (I forgot to log in -duh!). And the reason for this edit I find to be obvious having read the discussion page. I am not a Catholic, and I am not pro Catholic. I don't even have a religion, so please don't think I'm defending the Roman Catholic Church or Giovanni Bosco. My only motivation is that I find it scientifically objectionable to add interpretations based on what an author "reckons" are the "repressed" motives of don Bosco. If there isn't solid evidence, it's just plain calumny. Again, scientifically, it's like adding to Elvis' article with "(possible alien abduction, and now lives in Orion's belt)". Let's keep Wikipedia serious and stop adding spurious statements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlvincent ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 20 April 2007
Blackmail use of dreams
In 1854, when in Piedmont was in discussion if the state had to confiscate the ecclesiastical properties, Bosco started to spread a series of dreams which forecast the death of members of the Savoy court or of politicians striving for the unification of Italy. Bosco activity, which had been described as having "manifest blackmailing intents" [1], ended only after the intervention of Prime Minister Camillo Benso, Count of Cavour.
Footnote 66 here is useful - it does not entirely bear out the newspaper [6] Johnbod 18:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I see no reason why this content is unacceptable; it just have to be rewritten. Use descriptive terms and attribute properly. Italian sources (and all foreign language sources) are acceptable, althougoh English is prefered on the English Wikipedia. Savidan 23:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
In 1854, when the Piedmont was occupied in a discussion of whether the state had the right to confiscate ecclesiastical properties, Bosco spread a series of dreams which forecast the death of members of the Savoy court or of politicians striving for the unification of Italy. His activity, which had been described as having "manifest blackmailing intentions," [2] ended only after the intervention of Prime Minister Camillo Benso, Count of Cavour.
This is the text as it stands prior to Evrik's last revert:
I would suggest that the description of the dreams as having "blackmailing intentions" be attributed to someone (was it Benso, or Petoia?). The other details that Evrik is asking for would be nice to have, but if they are not available, we should not resort to original research or excluding otherwise sourced material. Other than that this text looks balanced and well-referenced. If after this change the insertion of the text cannot be agreed to, I would suggestion formal mediation. Savidan 18:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
If you would like a "more complete paragraph", Evrik, I would suggest that you do some legwork rather than making the perfect the enemy of the good. A sufficiently sourced addition has been presented, and it is inappropriate to remove it simply because you personally would like additional information. Unless there is evidence that such information can be sourced, it should not be added, because it would constitution original research. Savidan 04:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
http://gesu.altervista.org (in Italian) is an apparently orthodox and entirely pious Catholic website with extensive coverage of Don Bosco’s dreams and his use of his accounts of them here. I imagine that it’s a copyvio of one of the books mentioned above. But since it doesn’t identify its source, we can’t can’t use it as a source. (A shame, because the details—if true—would make small improvements to the article: we could clarify, for instance, what kind of Catholic financial assets the Piedmontese parliament thought ought to be up for grabs; we could mention that he sent an account of his dream to both pope and king.) Nevertheless it does seem to demonstrate that making reference to Bosco’s self-alleged dreams of courtly funerals does not make you a heretic or an anti-Catholic bigot. So, to the stupid and/or bigoted Catholics here (the other Catholics will know who I mean!), please engage brain before reverting. — Ian Spackman 12:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
My Italian's quite rusty - however, I looked the first article over. I can give a rusty translation. If someone more fluent than I wants to jump in, feel free - I'm REALLY RUSTY , heck, google can probably do better than I can !
Translation of article:
{* NOTE: THIS IS WORD FOR WORD WITHOUT CHANGING THE SYNTAX
ITALIAN SYNTAX IS SOMEHWAT THE REVERSE OF ENGLISH SYNTAX.
I DID NOT ATTEMPT TO FIX THE SYNTAX BECAUSE OF MY ITALIAN'S
ROTTEN!! *}
The left omens of Don Giovanni Bosco
One of the recurrent aspects and
characteristic of the dreams and theirs
assumption to true and own
detections, considered like
directed messages to single individuals or
to the entire one [ ??? ]. In the within
of such detections,
[ ????????????? ]
numerous visionary or
profession dreamers, than
often they have originated some cults,
like the [ ???? ] visions of the devout person
Marietta in the Foggiano, died in 1977; or
like the [ ??????? ] mesagges of Domenico Masselli di Stornarella
(FG), to which vision of the Madonna in 1959 appeared one.
You attend also the dreams and visoions of It knows and Madonne to you in
tears in [ ?????????? ] of delicate [ ????????????????? ].
Houses emblematic of dreams take advantage of to you to fine
political-reactionaries, and that gil they were worth the sad one
[ ?????????? ] reputation, and represented gives
Giovanni Bosco. Its fervent [ ???????] [ ???????] one, nearly
always [ ?????????] of ruins and misfortunes, he was
begun from 1854, year in which the law was discussed
in order to confiscate the ecclesiastical assets from part of
Piemontese state. Its dreams,[ ???
?????????????????????????????????????]
died of various members of the court of
Savoia or of the politicians who fought in those
years for the joined one of Italy. Only the participation of Cavour
riusci to put aim to the [ ???? ] delirious and [ ???????]
[ ????? ] of Don Bosco, that it began to be
taken seriously a from it represents you of
real house that gives various members of the Room
KoshVorlon (forgot to sign in !) {RIP Lucianno Pavarotti } —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.151.41.1 ( talk) 19:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph as Mamalujo edited reads "Bosco reported a series of dreams which forecast "great funerals at court”, referring to members of the Savoy court or of politicians, which forecast was largely fulfilled within weeks."
It seems to imply that Bosco had certain ability to foresee the future (unless somebody in the Savoy court had a terminal illness or Bosco new that somebody was going to be murdered for political reasons, in the first case the assertion is trivial and in the second defamatory). Any reasonable rational person would argue that the capacity of foresee the future in dreams is very unlikely. The source of this extraordinary claim is Bosco.net and is written by a certain father Michael Mendl. A google after Michael Mendl doesn't seem to show any particular credentials on history or the dark arts of clairvoyance.
The source is not a "reliable source" as per WP:RS Bakersville 18:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The Spanish version was selected few days ago as feature article. Who can help to put the template here. Thanks. -- El Viajero Paisa ( talk) 15:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Why no mention of Il Grigio, Bosco's supposed mysterious canine protector? Even if one disputes the existence of the dog(?), it should be mentioned in the article somewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.109.46.96 ( talk) 16:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The section Foundation of the Salesian Family begins:
To be honest I can’t be bothered to re-read this hideous article yet again in order to discover whether there were indeed unexpected miracles of dentistry performed by Mr Wood. But I suspect that there has been a little vandalism, and there might be someone who who would be interested in locating and eliminating it. — Ian Spackman ( talk) 12:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I do not find it sufficient to suppress any textual additions that refer to Bosco's paedophile attraction on the grounds that 'consensus' has been reached. I am far from convinced that those enforcing the consensus have been sufficiently objective - and have not allowed their personal Salesian prejudices to impinge upon the debate. We have to approach this article from a NPOV, rather than take personal offence that Bosco may not have been tha man we thought him to be. And I speak as a baptised Roman Catholic. This is a biographical and not a hagiographical article Contaldo80 ( talk) 09:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Not ever happened that the Catholic Church has recognized as a saint, a person with inclinations towards paedophilia. To find a saint in depth should study the process of canonization where it is analysed even the slightest negative detail of his life. Even a doubt on the morality ring may not clarified the process. Therefore, before making statements on Don Bosco based on a book, one must go to the sources, and read the process of beatification and canonization. I ask them to excuse my English. 88.37.120.106 ( talk) 15:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect, I think you are wrong. Over the past 2000 years the Catholic church has canonised plenty of individuals with questionable personal practices. Not least during the medieval period! One quick example worth looking at is the Montara case (on wikipedia) and the beatification of Pius IX. In a speech in 1871 Pius called the Jews of Rome "dogs" and said: "of these dogs, there are too many of them at present in Rome, and we hear them howling in the streets, and they are disturbing us in all places."!!! We should not rely on Church sources alone to support or refute any argument - as they are not impartial enough. Contaldo80 ( talk) 11:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Is un incompatible comparison between an incorrect statement and a moral act unacceptable. 88.37.120.106 ( talk) 10:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid I'm not clear what you are saying? Thanks. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry User:Contaldo80, there are no evidences of such an accusation on Don Bosco and no comparisson with the examples you give. -- AL ( talk) 10:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Eh? There clearly is evidence - although I accept some may dispute whether it is valid which seems fair enough (although worringly there hasn't been one non-Salesian educated contributor who has disputed it...) But that's not really the point of this discussion, so please worth keeping track of what's going on. Thanks Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
If he was born and died in Italy then why do we call him by an English name that he was never called in his life? We should call him Giovanni Melchiorre Bosco which is what we should rename this article to.
Bolinda (
talk)
04:58, 20 September 2008 (UTC)B
And presumably link it to the article on Roma! It's called anglicisation - and quite common. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
1. Promoted "Studies" to same level as "Sources". 2. Added a new study by Arthur J. Lenti. Jmrasor ( talk) 21:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
'Don' being Italian for 'Mister' is not correct: it is true that in Southern Italy people of station are often called 'don', following an ancient tradition that I guess was introduced by Spaniards, but in this case - and more generally, nation-wide 'don' is the usual honorific for a priest. -- Tridentinus 08:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC).
Orginally, Don started as the initials D.O.N. which in Spanish stood for "De Origen Noble", meaning "Of Noble Origin". In time it came to become simply a sign or respect. It is considered an honor to be called a Don and is the reason why all members of the Spanish nobility also use "Don" in their offical names. -—Preceding unsigned comment added by Csucre ( talk • contribs)
I can't speak about Spanish... but I have in front of me the highly authoritative Devoto-Oli dictionary of Italian, confirming that don (at least as we Italians use it) is the truncated form of 'donno', coming from Latin 'dominus'. 'Don' is explained as 'honorific tributed to many of the regular clergy and secular ecclesiastics; among laics, reserved once to only princes and high nobility of Spain and Portugal, it later extended, also in Italy, to any man of station, not tecessarily noble, especially in the South where, today, it mostly denotes respect, reverence'. In fact, I still stand by my original edit of the noun explanation, and as a native speaker of Italian (and we're discussing an Italian here) consider the current explanation in the article totally wrong: it is not for elders only, nor for all elders, but instead is what all regular priests (by regular I mean, not bishops, cardinals and so forth) regardless of age. In fact, if no one opposes, I'd like to return to my formulation - unless, of course, someone else can come out with a precise yet more elegant one. -- Tridentinus 17:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
How did Don Bosco start his work? (question asked by User:84.67.217.153, moving from article page).
It has been postulated that Don Bosco was driven by homosexual urges, in particular directed towards the boys he cared for, but never consummated. Saint Joseph Cafasso, his confessor, said of him: "Se non fosse che lavora per la gloria di Dio, direi che è un uomo pericoloso, più per quel che non lascia trasparire, che per quel che ci dà a conoscere di sé. Don Bosco, insomma, è un enigma" (If it were not for his work for the glory of God, I would say that he is a dangerous man, more for what he does not allow to be seen than for what he lets us know about himself. Don Bosco, thus, is an enigma.)
His educational principle was that the educator must love the boy, must make the boy feel that he is loved, and by means of this pedagogical love guide him in the proper direction (towards Christian values). The ideal virtue that Don Bosco preached was that of chastity, which has given reason to his biographers to further suspect that it was a result of his sublimation of the sexual impulse. In his relations with the boys he felt compelled (or, some have claimed, "obsessed") to be close to them in order to protect them from falling prey to homosexual or masturbatory temptations.
While he had very tender feelings towards his boys, he had an absolute horror of the female touch. It is told of him that once at the barbershop, realizing it was the barber's wife who was soaping him, he ran out into the street covered with suds. His last written words were "I giovanetti sono la delizia di Gesù e Maria" (The youths are the delight of Jesus and Mary).
The Catholic hierarchy, while distancing itself from the more pederastic nuances of Don Bosco's teachings, has not accepted the homosexual explanation for his motivations. Giacomo Dacquino, professor at the Università Pontificia Salesiana di Torino denonced as "unscientific" homosexual or pederastic interpretations of Don Bosco's work. [1]
==Analysis of his character and motivations==
It has been postulated that Don Bosco was driven by homosexual urges, in particular directed towards the boys he cared for, but never consummated. Saint Joseph Cafasso, his confessor, said of him: "Se non fosse che lavora per la gloria di Dio, direi che è un uomo pericoloso, più per quel che non lascia trasparire, che per quel che ci dà a conoscere di sé. Don Bosco, insomma, è un enigma" (If it were not for his work for the glory of God, I would say that he is a dangerous man, more for what he does not allow to be seen than for what he lets us know about himself. Don Bosco, thus, is an enigma.)
His educational principle was that the educator must love the boy, must make the boy feel that he is loved, and by means of this pedagogical love guide him in the proper direction (towards Christian values). The ideal virtue that Don Bosco preached was that of chastity, which has given reason to his biographers to further suspect that it was a result of his sublimation of the sexual impulse. In his relations with the boys he felt compelled (or, some have claimed, "obsessed") to be close to them in order to protect them from falling prey to homosexual or masturbatory temptations.
While he had very tender feelings towards his boys, he had an absolute horror of the female touch. It is told of him that once at the barbershop, realizing it was the barber's wife who was soaping him, he ran out into the street covered with suds. His last written words were "I giovanetti sono la delizia di Gesù e Maria" (The youths are the delight of Jesus and Mary).
The Catholic hierarchy, while distancing itself from the more pederastic nuances of Don Bosco's teachings, has not accepted the homosexual explanation for his motivations. Giacomo Dacquino, professor at the Università Pontificia Salesiana di Torino denonced as "unscientific" homosexual or pederastic interpretations of Don Bosco's work. [2]
However, in a comment made shortly before his death, Don Bosco himself seems to be aware that his actions may be seen in a homoerotic light [referring to himself in the third person]: "Ti manifesto adesso un timore (...), temo che qualcuno dei nostri abbia ad interpretar male l'affezione che don Bosco ha avuto per i giovani, e che dal mio modo di confessarli vicino vicino, si lasci trasportare da troppa sensualità verso di loro, e pretenda poi giustificarsi col dire che don Bosco faceva lo stesso, sia quando loro parlava in segreto, sia quando li confessava. So che qualcuno si lascia guadagnare dal cuore, e ne temo pericoli e danni spirituali." (I will reveal to you now a fear . . . I fear that one of ours may come to misinterpret the affection that Don Bosco had for the young, and from the way that I received their confession - really, really close - and may let himself get carried away with too much sensuality towards them, and then pretend to justify himself by saying that Don Bosco did the same, be it when he spoke to them in secret, be it when he received their confession. I know that one can be conquered by way of the heart, and I fear dangers, and spiritual damage.) This comment has led historian Giovanni Dall'orto to suggest that Don Bosco himself felt he had gotten a bit closer to his protegees that perhaps he should have.
Despite his own opinion that Don Bosco never gave free rein to his alleged desires for the boys around him, Dall'orto reports that many years after having published his research on the topic, h was approached by a resident of Torino who explained his own distaste - and that of his family - for the Church by the fact that his grandfather had been a pupil of Don Bosco and had been sexually molested by him. From that, he claimed, came his hate of an institution which had dared to make a child molester into a saint.
I sat down last night and went through the 'supporting documents' provided by Haiduc. What I found only strengthens my opposition to the insertion of the text about pedophilia and pederasty. Let me start with the neutrality of this whole effort to insert the language.
Not NPOV
First, the language was not NPOV, and I don't think that if you look at Haiduc's record of editing you would judge that he is a neutral person who is trying to bring light to a subject. I suppose that he is an advocate who is trying to put forth his point of view – and it is not neutral. If you contrast his sources with the ones used to develop the article in the first place there is a marked difference, the Catholic Encyclopedia versus a collection of advocate websites.
Potential plagarism
Plagiarism crosses language boundaries, and the first couple of versions of what Haiduc wrote bordered on plagiarism of text from these two sites:
Unreliable Sources The final proposed text is still speculative and should not be included because:
In summary:
If something that accuses a saint of being a pederast and a pedophile, it should not be included unless it has unimpeachable sources and documentation.
-- † Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 07:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
There is no consensus. I did a quick summation, please feel free to change your 'vote' if I got it wrong.
The supporting documents on the pederasty don't justify including the text. evrik 21:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is in need of severe pruning and NPOVing. Articles on religious topics are prone to two extremes — either extremely devotional and hagiographic or extremely hostile and abusive. Neither is acceptable under NPOV. This article is in the former category. In part that is because of its Catholic Encyclopaedia origins. Older sourcebooks, whether the CE, Brittanica or elsewhere, tended to use flowerly, highly POV language with less nuance than is applied today. Many articles have used the Catholic Encyclopaedia. I've used it in a couple. It is extremely good, but some of its articles do fall into the trap of reading like Catholic propaganda pieces, or prolonged press releases. Since Vatican II even the Church has moved away from hagiographic Catholicism with the abandonment of the concept of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
This article, in its current form, needs fundamental professional writing to remove its overwhelming hagiographic tone. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 19:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
The single biggest refence work is in Italian. Without better documentation, this addition is not substantial enough to justify including. Most of the text come from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Calling a saint a pederast requires more proof. It is not |NPOV. I am asking that the page be locked until something gets worked out. evrik 03:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Evrik, There is no need for page protection when people are discussing things and the converstion is civil. Here is the disputed section:
It looks like all the information in these two paragraphs comes from the citation which is in Italian. Are you questioning whether the translation fairly represents the original, whether Dall'Orto is a reputable scholar, or whether the claims are unbalanced or out of context? Often, an effective way to handle this kind of NPOV dispute is not to remove the text, but to counter the claim with another citation that challenges the first opinion. It seems that the citation does not claim anything that Don Bosco himself did not imply. It says, "Bosco has been the subject of speculation about whether or not he had sublimated pederastic tendencies", which I am assuming is the most problematic sentence. If Dall'Orto is a good citation, and Dall'Orto speculates about pederastic tendencies, then this would be an NPOV sentence. Resolving this requires everyone to talk specifically about the text and the citations. -- Samuel Wantman 07:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to think some more about a suitable compromise. evrik 17:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
It's been nearly 2 months under protection - to me, this is such a long time as to be disruptive to the whole idea of Wikipedia. It looks like some good discussion has taken place here - I'll unprotect soon unless someone can think of a reason why you all can't play civilly. ( ESkog)( Talk) 02:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Who edited and inputed the initial NPOV comments?? Pkazz 19:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure about your qustion. If you're talking about the comments at the heart of the current discussion, it would be this ] at 22:09, 21 February 2006 by Haiduc. The article was poorly written from the beginning - is that what you're referring to? evrik 20:10, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
In my view, the extension of the article proposed by Haiduc should not be included. It does not present sufficient evidence. I’ll look at the sources he uses, especially the key one: an article by Giovanni Dall’Orto on the Italian website Cultura Gay. Haiduc’s extension links to that one.
Three sources are cited by Haiduc in support of including the material on the homosexuality of Don Bosco:
The two citations of Among men, among women are taken verbatim from Giovanni Dall’Orto’s bio of Don Bosco on the site Cultura Gay ( http://www.culturagay.it/cg/biografia.php?id=14#2a). That is based on the last-cited work of these three.
It appears that the best place to begin would be Dall’Orto’s article. It is certainly the most accessible. Before that, I’ll look at other sources.
I found a fuller citation for Among men, among women in the University of Amsterdam online catalog ( http://visscher.ic.uva.nl:8080): Among men, among women : sociological and historical recognition of homosocial arrangements / [eds.: Mattias Duyves et al.; transl. by Felix Barner et al.]
Unfortunately, I could find no list of contributions, nor any reference to the conference contributions of Pennings and Sanders. As Dall’Orto cites them, they could fit in this work of 611 pages.
That library has works by both Pennings (1960-) and Sanders (1961-). It lists 6 titles by Pennings on sociological research, none matching the “Don Bosco breathes his last: the scenario of Catholic social clubs in the Fifties and Sixties” article. Five of the works are in Dutch, one in English. Stephanus Clement Sanders (1961-) accounts for 8 titles, all in Dutch. They are travelogues, novels and essays, one on lesbians. None matches the cited article “A phenomenon’s bankruptcy: Don Bosco and the question of coeducation”.
Google searches for these titles by these authors yield nothing.
Dall’Orto’s article originally appeared as the contribution in Haiduc’s third citation. For Dall’Orto’s comments on his several contributions on Italian figures in Who’s Who in Gay and Lesbian History, see Gay.It ( http://www.gay.it/channels/view.php?ID=10845). See Fisica / Mente for a version with more pictures ( http://www.fisicamente.net/index-809.htm). Dall’Orto is an activist and writer for gay causes in Italy. See his bio (#2 of 20) on Cultura Gay http://www.culturagay.it/cg/autore.php?id=2.
A source oft cited by Dall’Orto is Guido Ceronetti, Albergo d’Italia (Hotel Italy) (Torino, Einaudi 1985). The link to that from Dall’Orto’s article on Cultura Gay is broken. A Google search for “Ceronetti Albergo d’Italia” hits several German-language travelogues with the same title. Einaudi’s web site knows about the book. Search for it ( http://www.einaudi.it/einaudi/ita/catalogo/catalogo.jsp) by ISBN = 8806589741; it’s “fuori listino”, out of stock. Bookfinder ( http://www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/Albergo_Italia/8806589741/) can’t find anybody selling it. The section in question, “Elementi per una anti-agiografia” (pp. 122-133), Dall’Orto reports as being based on pre-1983 articles by Ceronetti in the Turinese daily La Stampa. That paper’s web site has archive researches only for the last 30 days.
See a short bio on Ceronetti at Italia Libri ( http://www.italialibri.net/autori/ceronettig.html).
Dall’Orto cites attempts by the Catholic Church to suppress the Don Bosco gay story in Sergio Quinzio, Domande sulla Santità (Questions of Holiness) Edizioni Gruppo Abele, Torino 1986), pp. 31-39. Domande is listed among his works on that bio, but Bookfinder ( http://www.bookfinder.com/) can’t find it. Google can: it’s out of print, unavailable at Libreria Universitaria ( http://www.libreriauniversitaria.it/goto/author_Quinzio+Sergio/shelf_BIT/Quinzio_Sergio.html) ISBN = 8876700595. Full title: Domande sulla Santità: Don Bosco, Cafasso, Cottolengo.
Dall’Orto does not give a direct reference for Moretti’s analysis of Don Bosco’s handwriting, but quotes it from Ceronetti. See a quick bio of Moretti at Istituto Grafologico "Girolamo Moretti" (Girolamo Moretti Institute of Handwriting Analysis) ( http://www.grafologia.it/girolamo_moretti.htm). Giuseppe Cosco ( http://cosco-giuseppe.tripod.com/grafologia/santi.htm) quotes and comments on the same passage, reaching a different conclusion. It’s from G. Moretti, I santi dalla loro scrittura (The Saints From Their Writing) (Ediz. Paoline, Roma 1975). According to Cosco, Moretti presents all those saints’ handwriting as a window into their struggles against their impulses. He has a similar analysis by Moretti of St. Veronica Giuliani (17th c). Dall’Orto, instead, presents Moretti’s analysis as being made on an anonymous subject.
Here is a summary of Dall’Orto’s article.
The homosexuality of Don Bosco is a long discussed “secret”; he’s like a stock character in a morality play (“di Pulcinella”). The Church has tried to suppress it. None of the sources cited (with the exception of an accusation reported in note 4, which Dall’Orto characterizes as dubious) has ever called into question Don Bosco’s chastity. It’s all about his suppressed homosexual or pederastic tendencies.
Then follows a section on the Church’s hypocritical stance toward homosexuals.
Then comes evidence from Don Bosco’s handwriting that he had a thoroughly bad character, with homosexual tendencies, as analyzed by Fr Girolamo Moretti. Dall’Orto also brings forward as evidence the assertion of St Joseph Cafasso, Bosco’s spiritual director until 1860, that he was “an enigma”, a dangerously secretive person if not known to be working for the glory of God.
Dall’Orto then tries to show that Don Bosco not only had homosexual tendencies, but was also a pedophile. He cites Ceronetti’s work where it contrasts the famous photo of Don Bosco hearing Paolo Albera’s confession, with his fear to be touched by women.
In spite of all this, Dall’Orto gives Don Bosco credit for doing useful work for the young boys in his care. His priestly title and garb were barriers to giving in to his impulses, as can be seen by his always signing himself Father John Bosco. These factors allowed Don Bosco to be close to youth, yet not fall into temptation. The article continues at length about the dangers of such a repression.
It ends with a defense of Don Bosco against pedophilic tendencies by Giacomo Dacquino, a psychology professor at the Salesian University in Rome. Dacquino is cited with two arguments: (1) one cannot deduce pedophilic tendencies from sublimated love and tenderness toward youth, and (2) Don Bosco consistently opposed homosexual acts. Dall’Orto discounts second Dacquino’s defense, saying that Don Bosco’s opposition does not prove he wasn’t a pedophile. Then Dall’Orto makes his own argument from a fact recalled by Dacquino: Don Bosco was worried some of his own Salesians might look at his own visible tenderness to youth, and use that to justify their own excessive sensuality toward them. For Dall’Orto, this is an admission “that he went too far”, and that such a defense of heterosexuality is an admission that makes any further accusation superfluous.
Dall’Orto’s article is 3754 words long. It is entitled “Biografia di Don Giovanni Bosco”. Only 399 of those words are in paragraphs directly dealing with Don Bosco’s life; the rest are analysis and opinion. Dall’Orto is careful to label his analyses and opinions as such.
Summarizing the scant evidence brought forward by Dall’Orto:
Summarizing the interpretation of the evidence:
It seems to be that the bulk of this article is unsourced, uncited and unverifiable. The comments regarding his attraction to minors, oddly, seems to be the only part of this article that's referenced, and that keeps getting deleted! I think some commentators have taken the discussion too personally - we need to remain objective and non-partisan if we are to create a useful and balanced article. Contaldo80 ( talk) 11:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I just did a survey of Wikipedia articles on Don Bosco in other languages, with respect to homosexuality.
The Italian article is at http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Giovanni_Bosco. The article makes no mention of his possible homosexuality; there is no discussion.
The Spanish ( http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Juan_Bosco) makes no mention in either the article or the discussion.
The Dutch ( http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bosco), French ( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bosco) and German ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bosco) are like the Italian: no mention in the article, no discussion started.
All of these seem to have a less hagiographic tone than ours, some only slightly so.
Nobody has started a Portuguese article or discussion on Don Bosco.
Perhaps the most complete is the Italian. Jmrasor
I have some text in my sandbox [ [4]] for an article. See if I'm on the right track with this. Jmrasor
Is including a prayer here NPOV? Do you think a Islamic or Buddhist reader could consider it a serious encyclopedic material? I decisively vote for its deletion. Let me know. Attilios 21:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
How can you be a Protestant and an atheist at the same time?--Hailey 18:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Think of it as being by god’s will and therefore very easily. (HE or SHE does the difficult bit if there is one.) Ian Spackman 18:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is a disater! It NEEDS to be rewritten as soon as possible. Please pledge for it being unprotected. Attilios 10:22, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I’ve certainly come across some pretty awful disputed pages, where the content tends to get buried under “Yes he is”, “No he isn’t” arguments. Berlusconi comes to mind. But at least there is a debate there, and if the participants are intelligent enough to cite good sources you can usually go off-site and make your mind up free from the shrillness of the immediate noise.
Freezing a page strikes me as very odd, though. What does it say? That the current version is so wonderfully good that it cannot be allowed to be corrupted by all of those mindless vandals out there? (Us, that is to say.) I am puzzled. I have no views on Don Bosco, by the way: I know nothing about him really. But I wouldn’t at all mind being enlightened: I’m just not going to bother to read a page that has been put under such a rigid regime of censorship. It seems like vandalism from above if you see what I mean! (By above I mean admins, not deities…) — Ian Spackman 20:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
As there seems to be a consensus to remove the prayer, and its inclusion was blatently contrary to NPOV, I've removed it. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 22:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Yet more paranoia. A locked version is a stable version to stop edit wars. If there is a consensus to make a change while a page is stable that change can be and is regularly made by whichever admin is passing. There was a consensus to remove that prayer — how it was ever allowed to be added in beats me. Prayers are never added in to articles. They fundamentally breach NPOV rules. As there was a consensus I implemented it. With paranoia like yours, is it no wonder this page is the source of edit wars and ends up locked? If you want it unlocked, request it. The protected template tells you how. In the meantime stop whinging and try to work with people. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 23:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Where there are constant edit wars and reversion wars, as was the case here, it is normal to lock it by imposing protection (full protection if it involves full users, semiprotected if it being targeted for vandalism and edit wars by IPs and new a/cs created to fight about the article). A stable version is locked and then people are asked to calm down. Any user can request unprotection. Sometimes the lock may only be for an hour or two, or a day or two. Sometimes things get left locked due to an oversight. I am not getting involved in this. All I did was notice that whatever about other lack of agreements, one thing there was agreement on was that that prayer should not be there, as indeed it should never have been left there to start off with. As there was a consensus there I deleted it. If you feel that the article has been protected too long, and it does seem to have been locked a long time, simply ask an admin to remove the protection or request unprotection through the template. That is standard procedure.
Protecting articles is standard on WP. Bitter reversion battles where articles are reverted constantly, minute by minute or hour by hour, can undermine the credibility of the entire project. Hundreds of thousands of articles have been locked over the years, and at any one time, given the various natures of protection hundreds may be protected in some form. If you want to discuss a version prior to unlocking, use a draft version at say Saint John Bosco/draft to produce a mockup of an alternative version which people can comment on. People need to remember three things
I have added the novena back in to bring it in line with the Infobox Guidelines. -- evrik 19:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
As you will see if you examine the other language versions, it is not at all mandatory to use his religious title as title of this article. As a matter of fact I would suggest that it skews the discussion unnecessarily. I don't know about you, but I am documenting the life of a man, not a religious construct. Nor is the articles on, say, Jonas Salk titled "Doctor Jonas Salk." Let's keep things secular here. Haiduc 13:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the point in renaming the article. The name is of no consequence. The issue is the writing of the article. Don't get sidetracked into a pointless debate about names. The important issue is content. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 19:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Who the heck wrote "He zipped through the lower grades and eventually graduated with honors in 1835". Zipped??? We are supposed to be writing an encyclopaedia here, not the Beano. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 23:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Irrespective of issues over content, this article is in severe need of copy editing. Much of its English is sub-encyclopaedic, to put it mildly. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 23:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps. To give just some examples of the appalling quality of the writing.
They are just a few examples of the tabloid-standard language. Quite separately, the content fails to offer and detailed critique of Bosco, his role in Italian Catholicism, the context in which he lived. It does not touch of the criticisms made of his ministry. Overall it makes him sound like one of The Muppets, not as someone the Roman Catholic Church thought worthy of canonisation. In terms of content, tone, layout and language it is an extremely weak article that offers the reader no insight and contributes little to an understanding of the man. As it stands this article is barely pass grade, chronically below even the minimum standard required for an encyclopaedia article. It does him, the reader and Wikipedia no service whatsoever.
Frankly the article needs to be totally dumped and a professional article written instead. If we asked for peer review, the readers brought in would only laugh (or cringe) when they saw it. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 21:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I think this article will never be encyclopedic until Catholic users will be stuck with the hagiographic version currently on line. -- Attilios 18:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm. My last post was intented to shackle a bit waters here, but it seems none was even a bit offended... but I'm sure if I'd changed something in the article a lot of people would rage. My proposal is: would you agree if I'd translated a new article from the Italian version, which looks fair good, and leave my work after opened to your copyedit and addition of everything you feel lacking? -- Attilios 18:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Let me know.
I agree with Mamalujo. It's not that bad. -- South Philly
The result of the debate was No consensus. — Wknight94 ( talk) 17:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
John Bosco → Giovanni Bosco – It is his real name Haiduc 21:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
I am changing the sentence "In recognition of his work with disadvantaged youths, he was canonized in 1944." The title of saint is not an award the Church issues for particular merit. See Saint for more info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tpellman ( talk • contribs)
The ‘prayer’ section of the infobox currently reads:
This is decidedly interesting, but decidedly odd. Firstly, of course, it is not a prayer but rather a description of the manner in which the prayer is said. Secondly, if true, it must mean that Salesians the world over take the last month of January off work in order to do 24/7 praying, apparently without pausing for sleep, and then (saving annual miracles) a few more days or weeks recovering from their exertions. Thirdly there is no link to the text of this prayer which, one feels, must have made it into internet-friendly record books. I do hope that the copy as it stands is not nonsense—religious fanaticism is a great source of inspiration and amusement. But I think that something as sheerly bizarre as this should languish awhile on the talk page before being reinstated in all its wonderful strangeness in the encyclopedia proper. Please do sanity checks. (Moving it here for the meantime.) — Ian Spackman 14:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
We describe him in the infobox as Holy Hierarch (whatever that means – perhaps there should be a link). But in the text we make a point of saying that he is ‘the only Saint with the title "Father and Teacher of Youth"’. This must be a matter of simple, verifiable fact. Anyone feeling interested enough to fix it? — Ian Spackman 20:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Your insistence to insert the prayer here is making this encyclopedia ridiculous. This is neither Catholic Encyclopedia, nor Wikisource. A few poets here have their poems cited for entire, and especially in the infobox: it is clear that to be so stick towards a prayer has other reasons. -- Attilios 15:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Those of you busy covering up research into the homosexual aspects of John Bosco's life and activities should know that I expect soon to receive materials presented at the "About Men, About Women" conferences in Amsterdam dealing with precisely these aspects, materials also cited by Giovanni Dall'Orto in his study. At that point we will have to have a separate section addressing these issues, as well as any coverup by the Catholic Church. Haiduc 18:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The guy who did this change: (cur) (last) 22:49, 20 April 2007 201.192.84.242 (Talk) (11,193 bytes) ("some sources speculate on possible pederastic motivations" is more balanced, and puts the idea of Bosco's "repressed" pederasty in the light it deserves until there is solid consensus.) ... is me, Carlvincent (I forgot to log in -duh!). And the reason for this edit I find to be obvious having read the discussion page. I am not a Catholic, and I am not pro Catholic. I don't even have a religion, so please don't think I'm defending the Roman Catholic Church or Giovanni Bosco. My only motivation is that I find it scientifically objectionable to add interpretations based on what an author "reckons" are the "repressed" motives of don Bosco. If there isn't solid evidence, it's just plain calumny. Again, scientifically, it's like adding to Elvis' article with "(possible alien abduction, and now lives in Orion's belt)". Let's keep Wikipedia serious and stop adding spurious statements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlvincent ( talk • contribs) 18:10, 20 April 2007
Blackmail use of dreams
In 1854, when in Piedmont was in discussion if the state had to confiscate the ecclesiastical properties, Bosco started to spread a series of dreams which forecast the death of members of the Savoy court or of politicians striving for the unification of Italy. Bosco activity, which had been described as having "manifest blackmailing intents" [1], ended only after the intervention of Prime Minister Camillo Benso, Count of Cavour.
Footnote 66 here is useful - it does not entirely bear out the newspaper [6] Johnbod 18:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I see no reason why this content is unacceptable; it just have to be rewritten. Use descriptive terms and attribute properly. Italian sources (and all foreign language sources) are acceptable, althougoh English is prefered on the English Wikipedia. Savidan 23:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
In 1854, when the Piedmont was occupied in a discussion of whether the state had the right to confiscate ecclesiastical properties, Bosco spread a series of dreams which forecast the death of members of the Savoy court or of politicians striving for the unification of Italy. His activity, which had been described as having "manifest blackmailing intentions," [2] ended only after the intervention of Prime Minister Camillo Benso, Count of Cavour.
This is the text as it stands prior to Evrik's last revert:
I would suggest that the description of the dreams as having "blackmailing intentions" be attributed to someone (was it Benso, or Petoia?). The other details that Evrik is asking for would be nice to have, but if they are not available, we should not resort to original research or excluding otherwise sourced material. Other than that this text looks balanced and well-referenced. If after this change the insertion of the text cannot be agreed to, I would suggestion formal mediation. Savidan 18:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
If you would like a "more complete paragraph", Evrik, I would suggest that you do some legwork rather than making the perfect the enemy of the good. A sufficiently sourced addition has been presented, and it is inappropriate to remove it simply because you personally would like additional information. Unless there is evidence that such information can be sourced, it should not be added, because it would constitution original research. Savidan 04:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
http://gesu.altervista.org (in Italian) is an apparently orthodox and entirely pious Catholic website with extensive coverage of Don Bosco’s dreams and his use of his accounts of them here. I imagine that it’s a copyvio of one of the books mentioned above. But since it doesn’t identify its source, we can’t can’t use it as a source. (A shame, because the details—if true—would make small improvements to the article: we could clarify, for instance, what kind of Catholic financial assets the Piedmontese parliament thought ought to be up for grabs; we could mention that he sent an account of his dream to both pope and king.) Nevertheless it does seem to demonstrate that making reference to Bosco’s self-alleged dreams of courtly funerals does not make you a heretic or an anti-Catholic bigot. So, to the stupid and/or bigoted Catholics here (the other Catholics will know who I mean!), please engage brain before reverting. — Ian Spackman 12:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
My Italian's quite rusty - however, I looked the first article over. I can give a rusty translation. If someone more fluent than I wants to jump in, feel free - I'm REALLY RUSTY , heck, google can probably do better than I can !
Translation of article:
{* NOTE: THIS IS WORD FOR WORD WITHOUT CHANGING THE SYNTAX
ITALIAN SYNTAX IS SOMEHWAT THE REVERSE OF ENGLISH SYNTAX.
I DID NOT ATTEMPT TO FIX THE SYNTAX BECAUSE OF MY ITALIAN'S
ROTTEN!! *}
The left omens of Don Giovanni Bosco
One of the recurrent aspects and
characteristic of the dreams and theirs
assumption to true and own
detections, considered like
directed messages to single individuals or
to the entire one [ ??? ]. In the within
of such detections,
[ ????????????? ]
numerous visionary or
profession dreamers, than
often they have originated some cults,
like the [ ???? ] visions of the devout person
Marietta in the Foggiano, died in 1977; or
like the [ ??????? ] mesagges of Domenico Masselli di Stornarella
(FG), to which vision of the Madonna in 1959 appeared one.
You attend also the dreams and visoions of It knows and Madonne to you in
tears in [ ?????????? ] of delicate [ ????????????????? ].
Houses emblematic of dreams take advantage of to you to fine
political-reactionaries, and that gil they were worth the sad one
[ ?????????? ] reputation, and represented gives
Giovanni Bosco. Its fervent [ ???????] [ ???????] one, nearly
always [ ?????????] of ruins and misfortunes, he was
begun from 1854, year in which the law was discussed
in order to confiscate the ecclesiastical assets from part of
Piemontese state. Its dreams,[ ???
?????????????????????????????????????]
died of various members of the court of
Savoia or of the politicians who fought in those
years for the joined one of Italy. Only the participation of Cavour
riusci to put aim to the [ ???? ] delirious and [ ???????]
[ ????? ] of Don Bosco, that it began to be
taken seriously a from it represents you of
real house that gives various members of the Room
KoshVorlon (forgot to sign in !) {RIP Lucianno Pavarotti } —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.151.41.1 ( talk) 19:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph as Mamalujo edited reads "Bosco reported a series of dreams which forecast "great funerals at court”, referring to members of the Savoy court or of politicians, which forecast was largely fulfilled within weeks."
It seems to imply that Bosco had certain ability to foresee the future (unless somebody in the Savoy court had a terminal illness or Bosco new that somebody was going to be murdered for political reasons, in the first case the assertion is trivial and in the second defamatory). Any reasonable rational person would argue that the capacity of foresee the future in dreams is very unlikely. The source of this extraordinary claim is Bosco.net and is written by a certain father Michael Mendl. A google after Michael Mendl doesn't seem to show any particular credentials on history or the dark arts of clairvoyance.
The source is not a "reliable source" as per WP:RS Bakersville 18:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The Spanish version was selected few days ago as feature article. Who can help to put the template here. Thanks. -- El Viajero Paisa ( talk) 15:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Why no mention of Il Grigio, Bosco's supposed mysterious canine protector? Even if one disputes the existence of the dog(?), it should be mentioned in the article somewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.109.46.96 ( talk) 16:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The section Foundation of the Salesian Family begins:
To be honest I can’t be bothered to re-read this hideous article yet again in order to discover whether there were indeed unexpected miracles of dentistry performed by Mr Wood. But I suspect that there has been a little vandalism, and there might be someone who who would be interested in locating and eliminating it. — Ian Spackman ( talk) 12:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I do not find it sufficient to suppress any textual additions that refer to Bosco's paedophile attraction on the grounds that 'consensus' has been reached. I am far from convinced that those enforcing the consensus have been sufficiently objective - and have not allowed their personal Salesian prejudices to impinge upon the debate. We have to approach this article from a NPOV, rather than take personal offence that Bosco may not have been tha man we thought him to be. And I speak as a baptised Roman Catholic. This is a biographical and not a hagiographical article Contaldo80 ( talk) 09:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Not ever happened that the Catholic Church has recognized as a saint, a person with inclinations towards paedophilia. To find a saint in depth should study the process of canonization where it is analysed even the slightest negative detail of his life. Even a doubt on the morality ring may not clarified the process. Therefore, before making statements on Don Bosco based on a book, one must go to the sources, and read the process of beatification and canonization. I ask them to excuse my English. 88.37.120.106 ( talk) 15:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect, I think you are wrong. Over the past 2000 years the Catholic church has canonised plenty of individuals with questionable personal practices. Not least during the medieval period! One quick example worth looking at is the Montara case (on wikipedia) and the beatification of Pius IX. In a speech in 1871 Pius called the Jews of Rome "dogs" and said: "of these dogs, there are too many of them at present in Rome, and we hear them howling in the streets, and they are disturbing us in all places."!!! We should not rely on Church sources alone to support or refute any argument - as they are not impartial enough. Contaldo80 ( talk) 11:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Is un incompatible comparison between an incorrect statement and a moral act unacceptable. 88.37.120.106 ( talk) 10:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid I'm not clear what you are saying? Thanks. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry User:Contaldo80, there are no evidences of such an accusation on Don Bosco and no comparisson with the examples you give. -- AL ( talk) 10:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Eh? There clearly is evidence - although I accept some may dispute whether it is valid which seems fair enough (although worringly there hasn't been one non-Salesian educated contributor who has disputed it...) But that's not really the point of this discussion, so please worth keeping track of what's going on. Thanks Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
If he was born and died in Italy then why do we call him by an English name that he was never called in his life? We should call him Giovanni Melchiorre Bosco which is what we should rename this article to.
Bolinda (
talk)
04:58, 20 September 2008 (UTC)B
And presumably link it to the article on Roma! It's called anglicisation - and quite common. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
1. Promoted "Studies" to same level as "Sources". 2. Added a new study by Arthur J. Lenti. Jmrasor ( talk) 21:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
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