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The originator of this article, Lobsterthermidor, has been involved in a two year vexatious edit war with Smalljim, who has developed a creepy habit of following him around WP and stamping his own mark, no matter how small, insignificant or unwarranted, on LT's articles. This is somewhat creepy, and must cease. The two edits made were classic examples of the sort of vexatious behaviour Smalljim has been exhibiting. The original text was fully supported by the sources to the satisfaction of a normal reasonable reader and have thus been re-instated. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 14:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC))
Oh stop moaning all over the place [1], unless you raise a proper DR process. Read WP:OWN and try some reasoned discussion! Just to pass the time I wrote the following before you added the above chunk of misery.
1. To help clarify this issue, and to assist anyone without the book who's interested, the full text of Hoskins' entry for Tetcott is online at http://www.devon.gov.uk/historictetcott. As anyone can see, from "Tetcott is altogether an atmospheric place..." onwards, Hoskins takes a flight into romantic imagery, writing in a quite different way to his normal prosaic style (this is something he rarely does). He is talking about the magical effects conjured up in the mind by the phrase "Arscott of Tetcott" (note that he specifically states "the very words...") and contrary to Lobsterthermidor (Lt)'s interpretation that
The Arscott family was considered by the Devon historian Hoskins to "epitomise all the ancient Devonshire squires"
Hoskins says nothing about the entire Arscott family which occupied several other places as well as Tetcott. It's pretty sad to have to go into such depth to explain something that would seem to me to be obvious, but necessary, yet again, to avoid Wikipedia being the primary source for this alleged fact which Hoskins does not make. I suppose that instead of removing the sentence, I could have changed it to something closer to what Hoskins wrote, but based on Lt's previous behaviour, I doubt that it would have made any difference to the outcome.
2. Regarding the other issue, I'll just list what Hoskins wrote, Lt's version, and my correction:
Arscott (now called South Arscott) was the original home of the Arscotts, who began here in Henry III's time...
The Arscotts had originated at the estate of Arscott (today South Arscott Farm) in the parish of Ashwater, near Holsworthy.<ref>Hoskins, p.411, but incorrectly lists Arscott under parish of Holsworthy</ref>
The Arscotts had originated at the estate of Arscott near Holsworthy.<ref>Hoskins, p.411. Hoskins says the place is "now called South Arscott"</ref>
In addition I couldn't find any other source to back up Lt's assertion that it's now called South Arscott Farm and is in Ashwater parish (which is south-east of Holsworthy [2]); in fact there's a South Arscott on the A388 about a mile north of Holsworthy, in Holsworthy Hamlets parish, but without further research, I don't know if it's the right place.
I can see no valid reason for Lt to revert such minor, obvious, and uncontroversial corrections. — SMALL JIM 00:06, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion continued elsewhere and regarding the first point Lt pointed out another mention of the Arscott family on p.79 of Hoskins, which we agree is the real description of the family: it points up the distinction between the "ancient freeholders" (of which the Arscotts were an example) and the "old squirearchy" (such as the Kellys, Fortescues, etc. (see p.77)), whose estates were eventually rivalled by those of the freeholders. Apart from the other considerations in point 1 above, referencing p.79 also avoids potential confusion over the term "ancient Devonshire squires".
I'd suggest something along the lines of
According to Hoskins the Arscott family exemplified the ancient freeholders who rose to the ranks of the squirearchy over a period of 300 years or so by the steady accumulation of property, mostly through marriage.
as a reasonable (though perhaps too long?) summary of what Hoskins says. I'll replace the current article text in a day or two if there are no objections.
That's the easy one – I'll comment on the second point in a while. — SMALL JIM 15:30, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Regarding point 2 above, this is about Arscott, the original home of the Arscott family, and whether it is at a place in Holsworthy parish now called South Arscott as W. G. Hoskins stated in his book Devon, or whether (as Lobsterthermidor claims) Hoskins made an error and it is at a listed farmhouse in Ashwater parish.
I've now found beyond reasonable doubt that Arscott is indeed now called South Arscott, it is in Holsworthy parish, and it most likely can be identified with the farm on the A388 north of Holsworthy town. I was very nearly persuaded by Lt's forceful arguments at AN/I, such as this, but fortunately decided to do some more research which has shown that nothing that he has claimed about the original home of the Arscotts being in Ashwater parish is verifiable.
In summary,
I'll provide full refs for the above if anyone is interested enough, but the clincher is W. I. Leeson Day's Holsworthy (1934), which must be considered authoritative and is now cited in the article, where the map facing page 2 shows "South Arscott" in caps in just the right place north of Holsworthy and page 29 states:
Arscott (now known as South Arscott). This was not a Domesday manor. The earliest mention of it that I can find is "Essecote" in 1238. In 1385 one "Will. Arescote" was ordained at Holsworthy...
I've amended the relevant paragraph to take account of both these corrections, and rewritten it into a more logical format. It would be nice if Lobsterthermidor takes note of this and doesn't dismiss further corrections to his text with quite so much vehemence! — SMALL JIM 00:28, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Just a couple of updates: the site is actually in Holsworthy Hamlets civil parish which was formed when the ecclesiastical parish was split in two in 1900 (W. I. Leeson Day, p.35). And to remove doubt that South Arscott has ancient origins, here's an old map from a 1970s planning application - it says "South Arscott | on Site of | Mansion". — SMALL JIM 11:10, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
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The originator of this article, Lobsterthermidor, has been involved in a two year vexatious edit war with Smalljim, who has developed a creepy habit of following him around WP and stamping his own mark, no matter how small, insignificant or unwarranted, on LT's articles. This is somewhat creepy, and must cease. The two edits made were classic examples of the sort of vexatious behaviour Smalljim has been exhibiting. The original text was fully supported by the sources to the satisfaction of a normal reasonable reader and have thus been re-instated. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 14:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC))
Oh stop moaning all over the place [1], unless you raise a proper DR process. Read WP:OWN and try some reasoned discussion! Just to pass the time I wrote the following before you added the above chunk of misery.
1. To help clarify this issue, and to assist anyone without the book who's interested, the full text of Hoskins' entry for Tetcott is online at http://www.devon.gov.uk/historictetcott. As anyone can see, from "Tetcott is altogether an atmospheric place..." onwards, Hoskins takes a flight into romantic imagery, writing in a quite different way to his normal prosaic style (this is something he rarely does). He is talking about the magical effects conjured up in the mind by the phrase "Arscott of Tetcott" (note that he specifically states "the very words...") and contrary to Lobsterthermidor (Lt)'s interpretation that
The Arscott family was considered by the Devon historian Hoskins to "epitomise all the ancient Devonshire squires"
Hoskins says nothing about the entire Arscott family which occupied several other places as well as Tetcott. It's pretty sad to have to go into such depth to explain something that would seem to me to be obvious, but necessary, yet again, to avoid Wikipedia being the primary source for this alleged fact which Hoskins does not make. I suppose that instead of removing the sentence, I could have changed it to something closer to what Hoskins wrote, but based on Lt's previous behaviour, I doubt that it would have made any difference to the outcome.
2. Regarding the other issue, I'll just list what Hoskins wrote, Lt's version, and my correction:
Arscott (now called South Arscott) was the original home of the Arscotts, who began here in Henry III's time...
The Arscotts had originated at the estate of Arscott (today South Arscott Farm) in the parish of Ashwater, near Holsworthy.<ref>Hoskins, p.411, but incorrectly lists Arscott under parish of Holsworthy</ref>
The Arscotts had originated at the estate of Arscott near Holsworthy.<ref>Hoskins, p.411. Hoskins says the place is "now called South Arscott"</ref>
In addition I couldn't find any other source to back up Lt's assertion that it's now called South Arscott Farm and is in Ashwater parish (which is south-east of Holsworthy [2]); in fact there's a South Arscott on the A388 about a mile north of Holsworthy, in Holsworthy Hamlets parish, but without further research, I don't know if it's the right place.
I can see no valid reason for Lt to revert such minor, obvious, and uncontroversial corrections. — SMALL JIM 00:06, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion continued elsewhere and regarding the first point Lt pointed out another mention of the Arscott family on p.79 of Hoskins, which we agree is the real description of the family: it points up the distinction between the "ancient freeholders" (of which the Arscotts were an example) and the "old squirearchy" (such as the Kellys, Fortescues, etc. (see p.77)), whose estates were eventually rivalled by those of the freeholders. Apart from the other considerations in point 1 above, referencing p.79 also avoids potential confusion over the term "ancient Devonshire squires".
I'd suggest something along the lines of
According to Hoskins the Arscott family exemplified the ancient freeholders who rose to the ranks of the squirearchy over a period of 300 years or so by the steady accumulation of property, mostly through marriage.
as a reasonable (though perhaps too long?) summary of what Hoskins says. I'll replace the current article text in a day or two if there are no objections.
That's the easy one – I'll comment on the second point in a while. — SMALL JIM 15:30, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Regarding point 2 above, this is about Arscott, the original home of the Arscott family, and whether it is at a place in Holsworthy parish now called South Arscott as W. G. Hoskins stated in his book Devon, or whether (as Lobsterthermidor claims) Hoskins made an error and it is at a listed farmhouse in Ashwater parish.
I've now found beyond reasonable doubt that Arscott is indeed now called South Arscott, it is in Holsworthy parish, and it most likely can be identified with the farm on the A388 north of Holsworthy town. I was very nearly persuaded by Lt's forceful arguments at AN/I, such as this, but fortunately decided to do some more research which has shown that nothing that he has claimed about the original home of the Arscotts being in Ashwater parish is verifiable.
In summary,
I'll provide full refs for the above if anyone is interested enough, but the clincher is W. I. Leeson Day's Holsworthy (1934), which must be considered authoritative and is now cited in the article, where the map facing page 2 shows "South Arscott" in caps in just the right place north of Holsworthy and page 29 states:
Arscott (now known as South Arscott). This was not a Domesday manor. The earliest mention of it that I can find is "Essecote" in 1238. In 1385 one "Will. Arescote" was ordained at Holsworthy...
I've amended the relevant paragraph to take account of both these corrections, and rewritten it into a more logical format. It would be nice if Lobsterthermidor takes note of this and doesn't dismiss further corrections to his text with quite so much vehemence! — SMALL JIM 00:28, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Just a couple of updates: the site is actually in Holsworthy Hamlets civil parish which was formed when the ecclesiastical parish was split in two in 1900 (W. I. Leeson Day, p.35). And to remove doubt that South Arscott has ancient origins, here's an old map from a 1970s planning application - it says "South Arscott | on Site of | Mansion". — SMALL JIM 11:10, 21 November 2013 (UTC)