This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 |
Once again, no consensus. Doesn't take an admin to figure that out. ( non-admin closure) Oiyarbepsy ( talk) 05:39, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
A previous RfC had 3 supporting editors for changing the current arbitrary century marker dates to important benchmark dates in the Bach Legacy time-line, with 2 editors opposed which resulted in deadlock. The current chronology of the Bach Legacy section is arbitrarily organized by century markers like 1800, 1900, 2000, etc, rather than specific important dates directly relevant to the Bach Legacy section. Another RfC (see above on Talk page) has identified 1829 (the date of the Mendelssohn Bach revival) as being of heightened importance to understanding the Bach Legacy as a whole. Mendelssohn worked extensively to revive Bach's reputation between 1824-1829 with the revived performance of Bach's Matthew Passion in Germany in 1829. The dates in the Bach chronology should reflect this in a new and enhanced outline covering first, 1750-1829, followed by 1830-1899, etc, leaving the rest of the section unchanged at this time. This RfC is to determine SUPPORT or OPPOSE for the enhanced specification of the benchmark dates over and against the use of arbitrary century markers currently used in the Bach Legacy section. Fountains-of-Paris ( talk) 17:11, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Many of Bach's unpublished manuscripts were distributed among the family members at the time of his death. Unfortunately, the poor financial condition of some of the family members led to the undocumented sale or destruction of parts of the unpublished compositions of Bach, including over 100 cantatas and his St Mark Passion, of which no copies are known to survive. At one point, the diary of one family member records the selling of the high quality parchment used for the hand-written transcriptions to be used for their stock value as packing paper at a local cheese shop due to harsh financial necessity. The legacy of Bach's Matthew Passion, although surviving, also followed a complex historical path following Bach's death following its nearly complete loss. In 1829, with the backing of Zelter and the assistance of actor Eduard Devrient, Mendelssohn arranged and conducted a performance in Berlin of Bach's St Matthew Passion. Four years previously his grandmother, Bella Salomon, had given him a copy of the manuscript of this (by then all-but-forgotten) masterpiece. [1] The orchestra and choir for the performance were provided by the Berlin Singakademie. The success of this performance was an important element in the revival of J. S. Bach's music in Germany and, eventually, throughout Europe. [2] It earned Mendelssohn widespread acclaim at the age of 20. It also led to one of the few references which Mendelssohn made to his origins: "To think that it took an actor and a Jew's son to revive the greatest Christian music for the world!" [3] [4]
References
Another previous RfC at Johann Sebastian Bach had 4-5 editors in support of changes with citations added to the proposed text, and two editors Opposed User:Martindale and User:Francis Schonken. This new RfC is open for review for your SUPPORT/OPPOSE opinions. Fountains-of-Paris ( talk) 17:11, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Collapsing copypaste !vote-stacking. Softlavender ( talk) 01:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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"Sebastian" isn't pronounced with a "Z" sound in English, so there needs to be an English pronunciation guide for the entire name, not just for the surname as exists now. Softlavender ( talk) 09:02, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
{{IPA-de|ˈjoːhan zeˈbasti̯an ˈbax|}}
gives the German pronunciation, which is correctly transcribed with /z/. If an English pronunciation is desired, it should be added to the respective English pronunciation guide in that footnote; the German pronunciation should be restored. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk) 19:57, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[ˈjoːhan zeˈbasti̯an ˈbax]; pronounced /lang/ (* listen)
I have observed the to-and-fro on the pronunciation note at the beginning of the lead. First, I think it is probably a good idea to relegate the pronunciation to a footnote, and it is worthwhile recording the (variation of) pronunciations in English, and also useful to have the original pronunciation in German. However, some comments:
Imaginatorium ( talk) 05:02, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
Moving both options here:
Dictionary.com has /ˈyoʊ hɑn zeɪˈbɑs tiˌɑn bɑx/ for the German pronunciation and /ˈyoʊ hɑn sɪˈbæs tʃən bɑx/ for the English pronunciation. [1] The same pronunciation of the last name is found in Phonetics For Dummies. [2]
or:
Dictionary.com has /ˈjoʊhɑːn sɪˈbæstʃən ˈbɑːx/ for the English pronunciation. [3] The same pronunciation of the last name is found in Phonetics For Dummies. [4]
References
The second option above is of course impossible. Dictionary.com claims IPA, and that is not what they have. So I'm removing both sentences until issues are settled here. Please no WP:OR in mainspace, tx. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 06:43, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
I repeat my original comment: this footnote is completely ridiculous. Footnotes should be brief, and give reference to supporting sources; they should not read like a talk page argument.
First, though, can anyone tell me what is the usual NAm pronunciation of Bach?! I looked in my Merriam-Webster, and it gives Bäk or Bä[x] (they represent both IPA /x/ and /ç/ by an underlined 'k'). But this 'ä' symbol is said to be the 'o' in "bother", or the 'a' in "father" for people who do not rhyme these two words. This is totally unreconcilable with England-English pronunciation: no-one English in England has this rhyme, and Bach is pronounced with the 'a' in "father". So the question is: do NAm speakers without the rhyme (there are such??) really pronounce Bach (in the 'k' version) to rhyme with "frock"?? Can we get a consensus as to the most usual NAM pronunciation, regardless of how dictionaries represent it? For British pronunciation, I honestly do not think I have ever heard anyone say "Back" (if anything "batch" is more likely); for a start, only England-English lacks the /x/ phoneme. Welsh has the diminutive term of affection "bach" (!), and Scots has "Loch Lomond", so any even semi-educated person would be aware of /x/. So if the vowel really is different, I think we should give the /x/ - /k/ alternation for NAm, and just the /x/ version for Brit.
If we can agree on what the usual pronunciations are, we can then find appropriate dictionaries to cite in support. Imaginatorium ( talk) 08:49, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
Just a comment on Kebab-san's last comment above. No, if Dictionary.com claims to be giving IPA, and gets it all wrong (which they do), we should regard them as unreliable, and not cite them. Imaginatorium ( talk) 08:50, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
I wiki-linked to recitative and da capo aria. I think both "Lutheran" as "chorale" may not be known to readers of this basic article, in "The Lutheran chorale was the basis of much of his work. In elaborating these hymns into his chorale preludes, he wrote more cogent and tightly integrated works than most, even when they were massive and lengthy." This has a "citation required" tag, but is also far from clear, at least to me. Can we first say that he used hymn tunes in chorale preludes and as cantus firmus, that he used hymn stanzas for context in his cantatas, oratorios and passions, and that he wrote complete cantatas dedicated to one hymn? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:53, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
The overview in the musical style section seems to be written languidly, by someone thoroughly unimpressed by the composer. It contrasts markedly with similar sections concerning other composers.. Should be more focused on critical reception and more thoroughly cited. Thoughts? 216.49.181.251 ( talk) 21:41, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Template:Bach cantatas has been nominated for merging with Template:Cantatas, motets and oratorios by BWV number. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:57, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
Unhide to see the proposal...
Proposal to split the
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Current
Johann Sebastian Bach (31 March [ O.S. 21 March] 1685 – 28 July 1750) was a German composer and musician of the Baroque period. He enriched established German styles through his skill in counterpoint, harmonic and motivic organisation, and the adaptation of rhythms, forms, and textures from abroad, particularly from Italy and France. Bach's compositions include the Brandenburg Concertos, the Goldberg Variations, the Mass in B minor, two Passions, and over three hundred cantatas of which around two hundred survive. His music is revered for its technical command, artistic beauty, and intellectual depth. Bach's abilities as an organist were highly respected during his lifetime, although he was not widely recognised as a great composer until a revival of interest in and performances of his music in the first half of the 19th century. He is now generally regarded as one of the greatest composers of all time.Proposed split
Johann Sebastian Bach (31 March [ O.S. 21 March] 1685 – 28 July 1750) was a German composer and musician of the Baroque period. He enriched established German styles through his skill in counterpoint, harmonic and motivic organisation, and the adaptation of rhythms, forms, and textures from abroad, particularly from Italy and France. Bach's compositions include the Brandenburg Concertos, the Goldberg Variations, the Mass in B minor, two Passions, and over three hundred cantatas of which around two hundred survive. His music is revered for its technical command, artistic beauty, and intellectual depth. Bach's abilities as an organist were highly respected during his lifetime, although he was not widely recognised as a great composer until a revival of interest in and performances of his music in the first half of the 19th century. He is now generally regarded as one of the greatest composers of all time. |
It was established at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach/Archive 15#Pronunciation footnote for name in March/May this year that the German pronunciation is [ˈjoːhan zeˈbasti̯an ˈbax], 1st name stressed on 1st syllable. This edit on 5 May by User:Mr KEBAB changed it to "German pronunciation: [joˈhan zeˈbasti̯an ˈbax]. His first name can also be pronounced [ˈjoːhan], with stress on the first syllable." This was challenged by User:Erutuon on 4 September, and reverted by Mr KEBAB the next day. Erutuon remarked in his edit summary that "accent of Johann is on first syllable; accent on second syllable only in longer form Johannes". I think Erutuon is correct and the pronunciation ought to be changed back to [ˈjoːhan]. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 01:53, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Johann Sebastian Bach has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Doesn't really matter, but there's no link to CPE in the sub-section "Death (1750)".
It's "His son Carl Philipp Emanuel and his pupil
Johann Friedrich Agricola co-authored
Bach's obituary, which was published in 1754"
Should be "His son
Carl Philipp Emanuel (Bach?) and his pupil
Johann Friedrich Agricola co-authored
Bach's obituary, which was published in 1754"
Idk, I'm just learning, thanks!
Kca224 ( talk) 07:00, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Johann Sebastian Bach has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change this sentence: 'tuned in the modern tempered system that allowed a wide range of keys[clarification needed] to be used.' ...
To: 'tuned in a temperament which allows music written in a wider range of keys to be played.'
This change avoids the misleading use of the word 'modern'.
Further information, which you may wish to refer or link to, can be found in the article below.
Bach's keyboard tuning
Tuning a keyboard instrument to sound good in all 24 keys (12 major and 12 minor) is not easy, and has taxed the brains of musical theorists through the centuries. Putting the problem simply, three pure major thirds are too small to fit within an octave. For example if the major thirds C – E then E – G# are tuned as pure intervals, the remaining third G# (A♭) - C will be massively wide and unpleasant to listen to.
In the 17th and 18th centuries it was common practice to compromise the purity of certain intervals, a process known as 'tempering the scale'. This was done to allow the playing of music in a wider range of keys without causing offence to the ear of the listener. The word 'temperament' is used to describe any such system of tuning.
The organ-builder perhaps best-known to J.S. Bach was Gottfried Silbermann. It is thought that he tuned his organs to some some form of Mean Tone temperamnt which allowed the simpler keys (such as C, G, D, F, etc) to sound pleasing to the ear. However, as the player modulated to remoter keys, there would be increasing harshness and occasional 'wolf' intervals, so-called because they howled unbearably. Bach clearly had a firmer grasp of tuning theory than Silbermann as he is known to have exhorted the organ builder to “sharpen the thirds” (by which he meant 'widen the thirds') making it possible to play in remoter keys.
In writing his two sets of Preludes and Fugues, Das wohltemperierte Klavier, Bach's intention was to illustrate that music could be played in all the major and minor keys. It is unlikely that he would have known how to tune his harpsichord or clavichord to the mathematically derived modern system of tuning known as Equal Temperament. (Here all the major thirds are widened by an identical amount so that any group of three will fit exactly within any octave.)
It is more likely that Bach would have used a tuning system similar to the unequal but nevertheless very acceptable temperaments proposed by theorists such as Werckmeister (1645 – 1706), Neinhardt (1685 – 1739) or Vallotti (1697 – 1780)
In pusuit of authenticity it has become common for harpsichords and neo-Baroque organs to be tuned to such unequal temperaments.
Adrian Carpenter M.A., B.Mus. Member of the Institute of Musical Instrument Technology 86.169.81.137 ( talk) 12:31, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
ObSF: Mozart in Mirrorshades
-- Pete Tillman ( talk) 23:18, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Johann Sebastian Bach has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Edit Request: Addition of Johann Sebastian Bach's mother's name.
Please change Johann Sebastian Bach's mother's (no name given) to Johann Sebastian Bach's mother's name is Maria Elisabeth Lämmerhirt.
Source-- Wikipedia entry: /info/en/?search=Maria_Elisabeth_L%C3%A4mmerhirt
NOTE: Bach's birth year and the full name of his father, as well as some of his siblings, are given. But Bach's mother's name is absent when Wiki article discusses Bach's birth and family and her death (when Bach was aged 10.)
Thank you. Juliekrug ( talk) 00:45, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Gerda Arendt and Michael Bednarek: if you guys feel some images should be moved or deleted, we can hold a voting on talkpage, and go with consensus. And thanks for the explanation Michael. — usernamekiran ( talk) 16:31, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Some general suggestions:
Please add your suggestions here:
Tried an update ( [12]). Any further comments/questions/suggestions/... regarding that update, or can we move on to the next topic (which would be the questionable "young Bach" painting I suppose)? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:00, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
I just wanted to input an additional information about J.S Bach selection in Leipzig. The current version says: "After having been offered the position, Bach was invited to Leipzig only after Georg Philipp Telemann indicated that he would not be interested in relocating to Leipzig.[51] "
This implies that Bach was a second successful candidate, whilst in fact he was the third choice for that position. Accordingly, I suggest the following: After having been offered the position, Bach was invited to Leipzig only after Georg Philipp Telemann indicated that he would not be interested in relocating to Leipzig[51], and the second successful candidate – Christoph Graupner, was refused a leave from his employer.
This additional information has been sourced from: Spitta, Philipp (1899a). Johann Sebastian Bach: His Work and Influence on the Music of Germany, 1685–1750 (Volume 2, page 183). London: Novello & Co
I hope this information is of use.
Best Regards, Andrew Droszcz Melbourne, Australia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew Droszcz ( talk • contribs) 09:28, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
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"When his contemporaries, such as Handel, Telemann and Vivaldi wrote concertos he did so too. When they wrote suites, he did so too."
I can just imagine them all coordinating in their own timezones. Tony (talk) 12:08, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
I'm thinking about subdividing the content of Bach's Leipzig years, currently "Leipzig (1723–50)" section (nine paragraphs of uneven length) and Bach#Death (1750) (three paragraphs) somewhat differently, for instance like this:
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 14:12, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
"Stauffer reports the discovery in 2005 of the organ tablatures that Bach wrote out when still in his teens of works by Reincken and Dieterich Buxtehude, showing "a disciplined, methodical, well-trained teenager deeply committed to learning his craft".[20]"
Both of these allude to anachronistic terms that are not only inaccurate for this time period but also suggest Bach was part of a cohort that did not exist at the time, which makes the sentence a bit misleading. I understand that this is a quote and it cannot be edited, but before I try paraphrasing it and starting an edit war can we at least to a better agreed to paraphrasing of this sentence to cut out historical inaccuracies, part of which involves paraphrasing the direct quotation used? -- Thenewguy34 ( talk) 00:11, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Tony seems to agree with my proposal but I keep seeing resistance when I try to do the same thing to other articles that I want to do to this page. This is probably not the ideal place to have a discussion about words and their historical contexts, but as an encyclopedia Wikipedia should not be using descriptions outside of their historical context. May I please have the input of a couple of other users before I go ahead with this? -- Thenewguy34 ( talk) 13:13, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Francis rightly reinstated the premature removal of this image. But I think we all agree that something better should be our medium-term aim. Any ideas? Tony (talk) 09:20, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 |
Once again, no consensus. Doesn't take an admin to figure that out. ( non-admin closure) Oiyarbepsy ( talk) 05:39, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
A previous RfC had 3 supporting editors for changing the current arbitrary century marker dates to important benchmark dates in the Bach Legacy time-line, with 2 editors opposed which resulted in deadlock. The current chronology of the Bach Legacy section is arbitrarily organized by century markers like 1800, 1900, 2000, etc, rather than specific important dates directly relevant to the Bach Legacy section. Another RfC (see above on Talk page) has identified 1829 (the date of the Mendelssohn Bach revival) as being of heightened importance to understanding the Bach Legacy as a whole. Mendelssohn worked extensively to revive Bach's reputation between 1824-1829 with the revived performance of Bach's Matthew Passion in Germany in 1829. The dates in the Bach chronology should reflect this in a new and enhanced outline covering first, 1750-1829, followed by 1830-1899, etc, leaving the rest of the section unchanged at this time. This RfC is to determine SUPPORT or OPPOSE for the enhanced specification of the benchmark dates over and against the use of arbitrary century markers currently used in the Bach Legacy section. Fountains-of-Paris ( talk) 17:11, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Many of Bach's unpublished manuscripts were distributed among the family members at the time of his death. Unfortunately, the poor financial condition of some of the family members led to the undocumented sale or destruction of parts of the unpublished compositions of Bach, including over 100 cantatas and his St Mark Passion, of which no copies are known to survive. At one point, the diary of one family member records the selling of the high quality parchment used for the hand-written transcriptions to be used for their stock value as packing paper at a local cheese shop due to harsh financial necessity. The legacy of Bach's Matthew Passion, although surviving, also followed a complex historical path following Bach's death following its nearly complete loss. In 1829, with the backing of Zelter and the assistance of actor Eduard Devrient, Mendelssohn arranged and conducted a performance in Berlin of Bach's St Matthew Passion. Four years previously his grandmother, Bella Salomon, had given him a copy of the manuscript of this (by then all-but-forgotten) masterpiece. [1] The orchestra and choir for the performance were provided by the Berlin Singakademie. The success of this performance was an important element in the revival of J. S. Bach's music in Germany and, eventually, throughout Europe. [2] It earned Mendelssohn widespread acclaim at the age of 20. It also led to one of the few references which Mendelssohn made to his origins: "To think that it took an actor and a Jew's son to revive the greatest Christian music for the world!" [3] [4]
References
Another previous RfC at Johann Sebastian Bach had 4-5 editors in support of changes with citations added to the proposed text, and two editors Opposed User:Martindale and User:Francis Schonken. This new RfC is open for review for your SUPPORT/OPPOSE opinions. Fountains-of-Paris ( talk) 17:11, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Collapsing copypaste !vote-stacking. Softlavender ( talk) 01:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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"Sebastian" isn't pronounced with a "Z" sound in English, so there needs to be an English pronunciation guide for the entire name, not just for the surname as exists now. Softlavender ( talk) 09:02, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
{{IPA-de|ˈjoːhan zeˈbasti̯an ˈbax|}}
gives the German pronunciation, which is correctly transcribed with /z/. If an English pronunciation is desired, it should be added to the respective English pronunciation guide in that footnote; the German pronunciation should be restored. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk) 19:57, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[ˈjoːhan zeˈbasti̯an ˈbax]; pronounced /lang/ (* listen)
I have observed the to-and-fro on the pronunciation note at the beginning of the lead. First, I think it is probably a good idea to relegate the pronunciation to a footnote, and it is worthwhile recording the (variation of) pronunciations in English, and also useful to have the original pronunciation in German. However, some comments:
Imaginatorium ( talk) 05:02, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
Moving both options here:
Dictionary.com has /ˈyoʊ hɑn zeɪˈbɑs tiˌɑn bɑx/ for the German pronunciation and /ˈyoʊ hɑn sɪˈbæs tʃən bɑx/ for the English pronunciation. [1] The same pronunciation of the last name is found in Phonetics For Dummies. [2]
or:
Dictionary.com has /ˈjoʊhɑːn sɪˈbæstʃən ˈbɑːx/ for the English pronunciation. [3] The same pronunciation of the last name is found in Phonetics For Dummies. [4]
References
The second option above is of course impossible. Dictionary.com claims IPA, and that is not what they have. So I'm removing both sentences until issues are settled here. Please no WP:OR in mainspace, tx. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 06:43, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
I repeat my original comment: this footnote is completely ridiculous. Footnotes should be brief, and give reference to supporting sources; they should not read like a talk page argument.
First, though, can anyone tell me what is the usual NAm pronunciation of Bach?! I looked in my Merriam-Webster, and it gives Bäk or Bä[x] (they represent both IPA /x/ and /ç/ by an underlined 'k'). But this 'ä' symbol is said to be the 'o' in "bother", or the 'a' in "father" for people who do not rhyme these two words. This is totally unreconcilable with England-English pronunciation: no-one English in England has this rhyme, and Bach is pronounced with the 'a' in "father". So the question is: do NAm speakers without the rhyme (there are such??) really pronounce Bach (in the 'k' version) to rhyme with "frock"?? Can we get a consensus as to the most usual NAM pronunciation, regardless of how dictionaries represent it? For British pronunciation, I honestly do not think I have ever heard anyone say "Back" (if anything "batch" is more likely); for a start, only England-English lacks the /x/ phoneme. Welsh has the diminutive term of affection "bach" (!), and Scots has "Loch Lomond", so any even semi-educated person would be aware of /x/. So if the vowel really is different, I think we should give the /x/ - /k/ alternation for NAm, and just the /x/ version for Brit.
If we can agree on what the usual pronunciations are, we can then find appropriate dictionaries to cite in support. Imaginatorium ( talk) 08:49, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
Just a comment on Kebab-san's last comment above. No, if Dictionary.com claims to be giving IPA, and gets it all wrong (which they do), we should regard them as unreliable, and not cite them. Imaginatorium ( talk) 08:50, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
I wiki-linked to recitative and da capo aria. I think both "Lutheran" as "chorale" may not be known to readers of this basic article, in "The Lutheran chorale was the basis of much of his work. In elaborating these hymns into his chorale preludes, he wrote more cogent and tightly integrated works than most, even when they were massive and lengthy." This has a "citation required" tag, but is also far from clear, at least to me. Can we first say that he used hymn tunes in chorale preludes and as cantus firmus, that he used hymn stanzas for context in his cantatas, oratorios and passions, and that he wrote complete cantatas dedicated to one hymn? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:53, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
The overview in the musical style section seems to be written languidly, by someone thoroughly unimpressed by the composer. It contrasts markedly with similar sections concerning other composers.. Should be more focused on critical reception and more thoroughly cited. Thoughts? 216.49.181.251 ( talk) 21:41, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Template:Bach cantatas has been nominated for merging with Template:Cantatas, motets and oratorios by BWV number. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:57, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
Unhide to see the proposal...
Proposal to split the
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Current
Johann Sebastian Bach (31 March [ O.S. 21 March] 1685 – 28 July 1750) was a German composer and musician of the Baroque period. He enriched established German styles through his skill in counterpoint, harmonic and motivic organisation, and the adaptation of rhythms, forms, and textures from abroad, particularly from Italy and France. Bach's compositions include the Brandenburg Concertos, the Goldberg Variations, the Mass in B minor, two Passions, and over three hundred cantatas of which around two hundred survive. His music is revered for its technical command, artistic beauty, and intellectual depth. Bach's abilities as an organist were highly respected during his lifetime, although he was not widely recognised as a great composer until a revival of interest in and performances of his music in the first half of the 19th century. He is now generally regarded as one of the greatest composers of all time.Proposed split
Johann Sebastian Bach (31 March [ O.S. 21 March] 1685 – 28 July 1750) was a German composer and musician of the Baroque period. He enriched established German styles through his skill in counterpoint, harmonic and motivic organisation, and the adaptation of rhythms, forms, and textures from abroad, particularly from Italy and France. Bach's compositions include the Brandenburg Concertos, the Goldberg Variations, the Mass in B minor, two Passions, and over three hundred cantatas of which around two hundred survive. His music is revered for its technical command, artistic beauty, and intellectual depth. Bach's abilities as an organist were highly respected during his lifetime, although he was not widely recognised as a great composer until a revival of interest in and performances of his music in the first half of the 19th century. He is now generally regarded as one of the greatest composers of all time. |
It was established at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach/Archive 15#Pronunciation footnote for name in March/May this year that the German pronunciation is [ˈjoːhan zeˈbasti̯an ˈbax], 1st name stressed on 1st syllable. This edit on 5 May by User:Mr KEBAB changed it to "German pronunciation: [joˈhan zeˈbasti̯an ˈbax]. His first name can also be pronounced [ˈjoːhan], with stress on the first syllable." This was challenged by User:Erutuon on 4 September, and reverted by Mr KEBAB the next day. Erutuon remarked in his edit summary that "accent of Johann is on first syllable; accent on second syllable only in longer form Johannes". I think Erutuon is correct and the pronunciation ought to be changed back to [ˈjoːhan]. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 01:53, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
This
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Doesn't really matter, but there's no link to CPE in the sub-section "Death (1750)".
It's "His son Carl Philipp Emanuel and his pupil
Johann Friedrich Agricola co-authored
Bach's obituary, which was published in 1754"
Should be "His son
Carl Philipp Emanuel (Bach?) and his pupil
Johann Friedrich Agricola co-authored
Bach's obituary, which was published in 1754"
Idk, I'm just learning, thanks!
Kca224 ( talk) 07:00, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Johann Sebastian Bach has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change this sentence: 'tuned in the modern tempered system that allowed a wide range of keys[clarification needed] to be used.' ...
To: 'tuned in a temperament which allows music written in a wider range of keys to be played.'
This change avoids the misleading use of the word 'modern'.
Further information, which you may wish to refer or link to, can be found in the article below.
Bach's keyboard tuning
Tuning a keyboard instrument to sound good in all 24 keys (12 major and 12 minor) is not easy, and has taxed the brains of musical theorists through the centuries. Putting the problem simply, three pure major thirds are too small to fit within an octave. For example if the major thirds C – E then E – G# are tuned as pure intervals, the remaining third G# (A♭) - C will be massively wide and unpleasant to listen to.
In the 17th and 18th centuries it was common practice to compromise the purity of certain intervals, a process known as 'tempering the scale'. This was done to allow the playing of music in a wider range of keys without causing offence to the ear of the listener. The word 'temperament' is used to describe any such system of tuning.
The organ-builder perhaps best-known to J.S. Bach was Gottfried Silbermann. It is thought that he tuned his organs to some some form of Mean Tone temperamnt which allowed the simpler keys (such as C, G, D, F, etc) to sound pleasing to the ear. However, as the player modulated to remoter keys, there would be increasing harshness and occasional 'wolf' intervals, so-called because they howled unbearably. Bach clearly had a firmer grasp of tuning theory than Silbermann as he is known to have exhorted the organ builder to “sharpen the thirds” (by which he meant 'widen the thirds') making it possible to play in remoter keys.
In writing his two sets of Preludes and Fugues, Das wohltemperierte Klavier, Bach's intention was to illustrate that music could be played in all the major and minor keys. It is unlikely that he would have known how to tune his harpsichord or clavichord to the mathematically derived modern system of tuning known as Equal Temperament. (Here all the major thirds are widened by an identical amount so that any group of three will fit exactly within any octave.)
It is more likely that Bach would have used a tuning system similar to the unequal but nevertheless very acceptable temperaments proposed by theorists such as Werckmeister (1645 – 1706), Neinhardt (1685 – 1739) or Vallotti (1697 – 1780)
In pusuit of authenticity it has become common for harpsichords and neo-Baroque organs to be tuned to such unequal temperaments.
Adrian Carpenter M.A., B.Mus. Member of the Institute of Musical Instrument Technology 86.169.81.137 ( talk) 12:31, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
ObSF: Mozart in Mirrorshades
-- Pete Tillman ( talk) 23:18, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request to
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Edit Request: Addition of Johann Sebastian Bach's mother's name.
Please change Johann Sebastian Bach's mother's (no name given) to Johann Sebastian Bach's mother's name is Maria Elisabeth Lämmerhirt.
Source-- Wikipedia entry: /info/en/?search=Maria_Elisabeth_L%C3%A4mmerhirt
NOTE: Bach's birth year and the full name of his father, as well as some of his siblings, are given. But Bach's mother's name is absent when Wiki article discusses Bach's birth and family and her death (when Bach was aged 10.)
Thank you. Juliekrug ( talk) 00:45, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Gerda Arendt and Michael Bednarek: if you guys feel some images should be moved or deleted, we can hold a voting on talkpage, and go with consensus. And thanks for the explanation Michael. — usernamekiran ( talk) 16:31, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Some general suggestions:
Please add your suggestions here:
Tried an update ( [12]). Any further comments/questions/suggestions/... regarding that update, or can we move on to the next topic (which would be the questionable "young Bach" painting I suppose)? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:00, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
I just wanted to input an additional information about J.S Bach selection in Leipzig. The current version says: "After having been offered the position, Bach was invited to Leipzig only after Georg Philipp Telemann indicated that he would not be interested in relocating to Leipzig.[51] "
This implies that Bach was a second successful candidate, whilst in fact he was the third choice for that position. Accordingly, I suggest the following: After having been offered the position, Bach was invited to Leipzig only after Georg Philipp Telemann indicated that he would not be interested in relocating to Leipzig[51], and the second successful candidate – Christoph Graupner, was refused a leave from his employer.
This additional information has been sourced from: Spitta, Philipp (1899a). Johann Sebastian Bach: His Work and Influence on the Music of Germany, 1685–1750 (Volume 2, page 183). London: Novello & Co
I hope this information is of use.
Best Regards, Andrew Droszcz Melbourne, Australia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew Droszcz ( talk • contribs) 09:28, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
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"When his contemporaries, such as Handel, Telemann and Vivaldi wrote concertos he did so too. When they wrote suites, he did so too."
I can just imagine them all coordinating in their own timezones. Tony (talk) 12:08, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
I'm thinking about subdividing the content of Bach's Leipzig years, currently "Leipzig (1723–50)" section (nine paragraphs of uneven length) and Bach#Death (1750) (three paragraphs) somewhat differently, for instance like this:
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 14:12, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
"Stauffer reports the discovery in 2005 of the organ tablatures that Bach wrote out when still in his teens of works by Reincken and Dieterich Buxtehude, showing "a disciplined, methodical, well-trained teenager deeply committed to learning his craft".[20]"
Both of these allude to anachronistic terms that are not only inaccurate for this time period but also suggest Bach was part of a cohort that did not exist at the time, which makes the sentence a bit misleading. I understand that this is a quote and it cannot be edited, but before I try paraphrasing it and starting an edit war can we at least to a better agreed to paraphrasing of this sentence to cut out historical inaccuracies, part of which involves paraphrasing the direct quotation used? -- Thenewguy34 ( talk) 00:11, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Tony seems to agree with my proposal but I keep seeing resistance when I try to do the same thing to other articles that I want to do to this page. This is probably not the ideal place to have a discussion about words and their historical contexts, but as an encyclopedia Wikipedia should not be using descriptions outside of their historical context. May I please have the input of a couple of other users before I go ahead with this? -- Thenewguy34 ( talk) 13:13, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Francis rightly reinstated the premature removal of this image. But I think we all agree that something better should be our medium-term aim. Any ideas? Tony (talk) 09:20, 10 September 2017 (UTC)