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Why is there even still an article about this guy? He's yesterday's news. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:44, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Looks like Joe's fame has helped in in minor legal scrapes [ [1]]
The article now reports Joe as making ungrammatical statements and therefore presents him in a poor light. The refs prove that this is unfair; the crappy syntax is the work of careless Wikipedia editors. Please fix. Rumiton ( talk) 15:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
or
or
So far I see three choices for better wording. At this point, which wording would be closest to NPOV? QuackGuru 19:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Tan has it right. And I don't see consensus growing for a qualifier. The vast majority of news coverage refers to him as a plumber. Few refer to him as an unlicensed plumber. He was called a plumber by both presidential canidates. And McCain went on a "Joe the Plumber" bus campaign tour in Florida, not a "Joe the Unlicensed Plumber" tour. But even more importantly, to call him an unlicensed plumber in the infobox or lede is to imply that he is breaking the law by operating illegally, and that denigrates him and causes harm, the essence of a WP:BLP violation. It has been established that he is operating legally under the supervision of his boss, licensed as a plumber by the City of Toledo and the State of Ohio. That information is in the article in the section on his plumbing career. Where it belongs, since there the opposing viewpoints can be brought out, otherwise it's also a WP:NPOV and/or WP:UNDUE violation. What's next, change the infobox to (hypothetically) say: Plumber (unlicensed except he's operating legally under his supervisor's legal license, as long as he doesn't contract independently, and not outside of Toledo, since his boss is licensed there, and not in the rest of the county, since his boss is not licensed there.) Further, plumbing is a trade, it's not at a professional level where an academic degree (often a doctorate) is required. Trades learn from union or non-union vocational schools, apprenticeships, and on-the-job-training (OJT). The comparison between plumber and physician is ridiculous based on education, training, experience, and licensing requirements. Finally, to the general public, if someone installs and fixed pipes and plumbing fixtures, he's a plumber. — Becksguy ( talk) 20:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
If you want to go simply by most common Internet usage:
unlicensed Plumber is by far the most common. Plumber's assistant is the least common. Kingturtle ( talk) 20:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I also tried:
unlicensed Plumber is by far the most common usage. Kingturtle ( talk) 20:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Google hits are not the best way to compare, but compare the following:
making the unqualified "Plumber" usage the most common by multiple orders of magnitude in one case. — Becksguy ( talk) 21:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
You lost me in your argument. How can you make a case that unlicensed shouldn't be used when you've removed the word from both of your searches. Please clarify your point. Kingturtle ( talk) 00:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Think it's a good time to tally the viewpoints here? Mattnad ( talk) 10:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
And back to the content of the article - Is there no record of what his official job title within the company is? If we don't have that, I am still wondering what is the best way to show: "It has been established that he is operating legally under the supervision of his boss, licensed as a plumber by the City of Toledo and the State of Ohio." Then that is what we need to establish in the most concise terms possible, because the simplie identification as "plumber" implies that he has the ability to act legally as a plumber on his own. -- The Red Pen of Doom 12:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Look, we've already seen the definition of what an assistant or helper of a plumber does, and it doesn't match what we can confidently assume JtP does. Any "supervision" that a licensed plumber gives him is purely a formality, since from all the sources it appears that he knows how to plumb on his own. And that's all that matters. He is a plumber, and what laws happen to exist in his area governing what work he can legally do, and where he can do it, do not interest me in the least. A legislature can't turn a plumber into a non-plumber just by passing a law, any more than it can change a writer into a non-writer, or a dog into a non-dog. -- Zsero ( talk) 17:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
OK. There's a lot to read here, and I'm pretty sure I'm missing many of the points. But I think Joe does plumbing, but he's not a full plumber yet. At least in Ohio where he works, there's a license to be a plumber. Joe doesn't have that yet. So do we call him the same thing as someone who is licensed? The article about the Union saying he isn't really a plumber says a lot to me. It's like expert testimony. Sure, they probably don't like Joe's politics, but I think it's more about pride in the profession and that there's a difference between someone who has trained, studied and been tested, and all of those other guys who haven't. The other thing is that people are making a big deal out of whether or not he's a plumber - that says something about "title". It's not to be taken lightly here. So I think Victorcoutin's researched name, "Plumber's Apprentice", is fair, accurate, and lets the article explain the battle over the name. Bruno23 ( talk) 21:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
There is no uncertainty about it. Factually, conceptually, etc., the occupation in question, as it applies specifically to this man, is ACCURATELY described as a plumber's assistant. He may moonlight as a plumber to save the company from having to hire another fully licensed one, but he cannot legally or professionally presume to use the title, nor should editors bestow it upon him in a prolonged moment of cavalier or negligent whimsy. That is why real plumbers do the extra training and consequently get paid the extra money. Wikipedia should not deliberately aid a personality who is increasingly notorious for his penchant for self-inflation and misrepresentation, by intentionally disregarding such well documented and thoroughly discussed facts. These facts and other credible support are cited above and now widely available to the non-Wikipedia-reading public.
The only clog hindering what should be Wikipedia's PUBLIC work appears to be an over-inflated, stubborn, self-important über-editorial ego, greased over with a veneer of false logic and pseudo-objectivity. This, more than anything else, threatens Wikipedia's credibility and usefulness.
One editor has unilaterally decided that the Ohio searches have nothing to do with this article. He REMOVED the section, which I reverted. I consider such a removal to be close to vandalism. He sought no consensus prior to such a wholesale snipping of the article, and he thinks that people are more interested in Jones-Kelly than in this article where the section belongs. Collect ( talk) 12:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
The latest characterization of Joe as a "plumber's assistant" appears problematic. A search in Google News finds no sources referring to Wurzelbacher as a "plumber's assistant", but several thousand as a "plumber". It would appear that the characterization as a "plumber's assistant" is a synthesis based on interpretations and descriptions of the types of services he has performed which would also present issues of WP:OR. Without reliable and verifiable independent sources to back the claim of "plumber's assistant", it should be removed. Alansohn ( talk) 13:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
It is certainly possible to perform all the tasks that a licensed plumber is allowed to do without a license, and it appears that Joe has done these things. Calling him a "plumber" not only appears to be supported by the preponderance of reliable and verifiable sources, overwhelming the single source that calls him a "plumber's assistant", it appears to be what he does for a living. The authorities in Ohio may be justified in sanctioning him for the practice of plumbing without a license, but should that effect our decision of what to call him.(unsigned)
I hate to point out the obvious, but "plumber" is an occupation and "plumber's assistant" is a job title. Think District Attorney vs Assistant District Attorney. Or think of "Senior Engineer" vs "Junior Engineer". Joe is a plumber, regardless of whether his job title given to him by his employer is "associate plumber", "plumber's assistant", "head toilet man", etc. -- B ( talk) 02:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Note: REMOVING "occupation" unilaterally is contrary to any accepted WP practices. Anyone who tries that joke again will be reported. Thanks.
Collect (
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12:10, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
This page has been sysop protected due to persistent edit warring. Tan | 39 14:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
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Re-insertion of the consensus accepted section on the Ohio database searches. Thanks! Collect ( talk) 18:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Done
Thanks. Ism schism ( talk) 20:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotect}} Mortals such as myself can't edit the article, would a higher entity please remove the frustrating Wikilinking of "Joe Wurzelbacher" (it redirects to this article obviously). Cheers adminz. — Realist
It occured to me that Joe is really more notable as a political activist than as a plumber. No one really cares about his plumbing work. (Please check out Cindy Sheehan for an article on a similar, although as of now more important, person.) Steve Dufour ( talk) 16:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that part of the problem is the difference between Joe the amateur political activist and Joe the example used by McCain in the debate. Steve Dufour ( talk) 23:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Also it's the differences in the representation of "Joe the Plumber" (JtP) as a cultural icon (which was in use at least as early as the 1940s), JtP as a 2008 political campaign metaphor, JtP as Joe Wurzelbacher (a plumber and a person), and JtP as whatever he is trying to set himself up as (political activist, singer, media star, whatever). And the article is uneven in it's treatment of these various aspects. And yes, far too much attention is being paid to JtP as a person, when he's famous and notable as an election metaphor (or meme), not as a person. — Becksguy ( talk) 00:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
This comment isn't supported by the ref that goes with it, in fact that reference says the opposite: "Mr. Wurzelbacher said he works under Al Newell’s license, but according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do plumbing work." This either needs a different source for the sentence to say, otherwise it should be changed to reflect what the linked article actually says. If various sources conflict on whether or not he needs his own license, I'd be fine with the article mentioning that the fact is in dispute with links to sources giving both sides. Obviously, best case would be a link to the actual Ohio building regulation that clears it up if someone can find it. -- Minderbinder ( talk) 17:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what part of my comment you consider a misstatement, I was making a direct quote from the source used in this article so if you consider it a misstatement, your beef is with the Toledo Blade, not me. Nor do I see how I could be engaging in OR since all I am saying is to pass on exactly what the sources say. As I keep saying and as you keep ignoring, there are a number of sources that are contradictory on this issue, some say he is a plumber, some say flat out that he is not, some say he needs a license in ohio, some say he does not.
My original point still stands, that the sentence in the article isn't supported by the source provided. Thanks for finding the actual regulations, I'll try to reword it and use that as a source. Unfortunately, that source still doesn't clear up the issue of whether the guy is really a plumber or not, and the sources we do have seem to be mixed on that question. -- Minderbinder ( talk) 19:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)Yes, exactly. The way it would work, is that if Newell (Joe's boss, the plumber with the license) sends Joe out on a job on his own, it's Newell's license which is on the line. Newell probably should inspect the job when it's done, but if he trusts Joe enough - he likely doesn't even do that on a regular basis if at all. Joe can't contract jobs on his own. All jobs are going to be contracted out under Newell's license and his bond. Any errors made by Joe are Newell's responsibility. If Joe should make a disastrous error it could possibly cause Newell to lose his license or his bond. Joe hasn't any legal liability, he doesn't make contracts. Additionally I looked up Newell's license online and he is also licensed separately to do hydronics. So Joe may be installing hydronic systems too. VictorC ( talk) 17:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
This is because in America, these references to well paid plumbers are to master plumbers. In America, when we say plumber we usually mean master plumber in making these seemingly denigrating comments about whom the speaker believes to be overpaid. No I say. Thus when referring to an American as a plumber, please reserve it for these high status master plumbers. I do not know how it is in other English speaking worlds like Australia, Canada, New Zee or the U.K. LaidOff ( talk) 00:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)m
Joe the Plumber, is a plumber, whether he is licensed or not. Whether he has to work under the supervision of another or not. It doesn't matter if his job title is Master Plumber, Journeyman Plumber, Apprentice Plumber, Illegal Plumber, Unlicensed Plumber, if his primary role is to work plumbing, then he is a plumber. I mentioned that I have two inlaws who are in construction. One is a Journeyman Instrumentationalist. He's been doing his job for over a decade now and is considered one of the experts where he works---when you consider the overtime and per diem he makes close to 6 figures. He has never joined a Union. Now according to the local union, if he wants a job at a Union Shop, he would come in as an apprentice because they do not consider him to be a true instrumentationalist. I'm an auditor, I've been doing it for a long time. I make good money doing it. There are "night auditors" making 10$ per hour who I don't consider to be true auditors, but guess what, despite my personal bias, they are still auditors. My point is, if it is his job, and what he does, then guess what it is what he is.--- Balloonman PoppaBalloon 15:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Balloonman is correct, he's a plumber. Per numerous arguments and a preponderance of reliable sources. Doctor is not a viable analogy as an unlicensed person can not practice medicine under the supervision of a licensed doctor. However, plumbers and electricians even if unlicensed, can perform their trade under the supervision of a licensed person. — Becksguy ( talk) 16:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
That's my point, Tan. The majority of reliable sources refer to him as a "plumber'. Yes, the other terms (unlicensed, assistant, helper, apprentice) are used, but they are a minority. — Becksguy ( talk) 16:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
As I said somewhere above. Yes, lede and infobox say "plumber" per WP:V and WP:UNDUE. Any minority views, qualifications, etc. go into the plumbing career section to present all significant viewpoints. — Becksguy ( talk) 18:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
But according to the logic of he does plumbing so he's a plumber, we have lots of lawyers here who are not Admitted in any state of the union. Why hasn't anyone answered my point? Because they are wrong and I am right. If you were to treat plumbing as a profession with equal respect as the law, you would not call unlicensed folks plumbers. Therefore all the people here who insist on calling these folks plumbers either do not equally respect the plumbing profession or they are illogocal. LaidOff ( talk) 22:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Huh? New York Times, Washington Post, Washington Times, Fox, CNN -- how many do you want? Not to mention the overwhelming consensus of neutral editors on WP:BLP/N. Meanwhile you claim that only 1 in 21 sources call him a "plumber" -- I think you must now come up with about 100 to make your case <g>. Collect ( talk) 03:18, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
On the eve of the EU opening up labor mobility, the French trade unionists were all revolting for fear of the Polish plumbers who would invade France and drive down wages. Alas, when the doors opened, the Poles al went to London! ;) Plumbers have been used as examples of bad news or fear... as when people decry the high cost of services... but when you pipe bursts you need a man for the service, service which cannot be outsourced! Likewise trial court room lawyers cannot be outsourced! LaidOff ( talk) 00:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
In what way was the last comment intended to improve the article? Collect ( talk) 14:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I can't believe that people are actually debating this. He plumbs. He is a plumber. Whether or not he is licensed does not matter; he practices the trade, therefore the word that describes someone who practices the trade is completely appropriate. Celarnor Talk to me 01:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I would also love to see a section on historical usage of the phrase. Note that several of these references are from before Joe Wuzelbacher was born. Here are User:Edison's valuable contributions, reformatted for readability, chrono sorted, and referenced as best I could, all from Google News Archive:
(about President Truman): ...the only time they worry about him is when he asks for the wheel of one of the White House cars, and starts passing trucks on blind hills, just like Joe the plumber out for a Sunday spin with the kids and the old lady.
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help) Published: November 11, 1984And quoting Edison (02:31, 10-27-08): Thus the meme "Joe the Plumber["] long predates Wurgelwitz first picking up a pipe wrench, with or without a license.
We need to cover the historic usage of the metaphor or meme in a section which complements the current occurrence. Anyone have suggestions for that section? — Becksguy ( talk) 04:57, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
It shows that "Joe the Plumber" as a phrase or meme predates this occurrence by decades. McCain didn't invent the metaphor, but he did catapult it into fame and notability. It supports the position that the article is not just a biography of Joe Wurzelbacher, nicknamed "Joe the Plumber", but is also about the cultural archetype of "Joe the Plumber", separate from the person behind it. Think about John Doe, Joe Shmoe, John Q. Public, and others. But especially about Rosie the Riveter, which is closest in context, since there is also a real person behind that archetype or metaphor. — Becksguy ( talk) 18:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not claiming that the current usage is based on the historic usage (although it may have been). What I am claiming is that the symbolic term existed way before it's current usage. And the fact that it has been used before is encyclopedic and adds support for this article being about JtP as an archetype rather than just a nickname for Joe Wurzelbacher. Much like Rosie the Riveter. Joe the Plumber is much bigger and much more important than Joe the person. — Becksguy ( talk) 23:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Please avoid as it is disconcerting to find some comments suddenly gone. I understand removal of trolls, but removal of other material is not needed, especially when the people whose words are removed have to search to find them. Remember, once it goes to archive, it is a real pain to reconstruct threads. Thanks! Collect ( talk) 14:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Why does this article mention his statements on how Obama would destroy Israel is elected president? That was pretty widely reported in the last week or so of the election. Kuralyov ( talk) 18:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree the content on Israel does not belong in the article. Without an opposing viewpoint, it's POV and violates WP:NPOV. And it has very little to do with Joe the Plumber as a metaphor or even as a person, and more to do with an election smear against Obama, which makes it a WP:BLP violation. See the archived discussion: Talk:Joe the Plumber/Archive 4#Israel comments — Becksguy ( talk) 00:48, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
The relevance is that the transcript significantly clarifies that Sam Wurzelbacher lied to Obama and the press by misrepresenting himself to the candidate & public. The transcript succinctly shows Wurzelbacher posing as a man who could afford to buy a plumbing business above the $250,000. tax bracket, when his salary was really only $40,000. per year.
The transcript also clarifies and adds additional, relevant knowledge to "Joe the Plumber" as a metaphor, since it is now widely acknowledged in CNN and other news media that this specific creation of "Joe the Plumber", rather than being an organically developed "everyman", was built and increasingly developed off a fallacious foundation: Wurzelbacher was neither a licensed plumber, nor was he actually in a financial position to worry about the tax consequences to his potential profits should he proceed to buy a plumbing business that made slightly more than Obama's proposed tax cut limit. This gives new, added and intentional layers of meaning, or even mockery, to many contemporary references of the "Joe the Plumber" metaphor.
Additionally, the transcript adds context to WHY the definition of "Joe the Plumber" as a METAPHOR HAD TO BE CHANGED later and re-branded with the word "ASPIRING". The transcript shows the original incantation of a Joe the Plumber. Yet, because the man behind the metaphor began to be revealed as someone who had never been financially within the class of small business owners that the McCain campaign used the metaphor to appeal to, (as a counter to Obama's claims that McCain wasn't interested in helping people on "Main Street"). Therefore, later usage and definitions of the "Joe the Plumber" metaphor had to be shifted accordingly as facts continued to emerge which revealed increasingly embarrassing discrepancies between the early McCain-invoked metaphor and the actual person. Hence, "Joe the Plumber" as a metaphor was forced to shift in meaning from the embodiment of a moderately affluent and would-be small business owner, to an average "working-class" (as opposed to "moderately affluent") "Joe the Palooka", who -someday- hoped and aspired to be able to buy his own small business and have his own employees, and, so aspiring, wanted protections kept in place now against unfair taxation when that happy day arrived for him.
67.40.213.39 ( talk) 19:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
How is including the actual transcript of the encounter within the article a case of "editorializing" or "POV rearing its head"?
The transcript simply allows the facts to speak succinctly for themselves, rather than being interpreted by various "impartial" editors. 71.35.117.84 ( talk) 21:07, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Looks like JTP is going to appear in a series of commercials:
"Joe Wurzelbacher, better know as Joe the Plumber, signed a deal with an online converter box retailer, VelocityStore.com, to star in a series of educational videos to inform TV watchers about what the transition is all about, how to hook up a converter box and how to get a government-sponsored coupon to help buy a box." Hart, Kim (2008-11-25). "Joe the Plumber's Next Gig: DTV Transition Spokesman", Washington Post. -- GateKeeper( X) @ 16:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
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Ism schism (
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01:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher was born December 3, 1973. Joe is very notable. His DOB should be in the article like any other article. QuackGuru 02:13, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Oh My Gosh! You are the official decider-in-chief here? Notability is something which has not been set by consensus here.
Collect (
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19:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
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The protection tag on the top of the page is an eyesore, and could distract readers. Could it be made smaller or less conspicuous? Thanks. ♪ Tempo Di Valse♪ 18:39, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
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There is no uncertainty about it. Factually, conceptually, etc., the occupation in question, as it applies specifically to this man, is ACCURATELY described as a plumber's assistant. He may moonlight as a plumber to save the company from having to hire another fully licensed one, but he cannot legally or professionally presume to use the title, nor should editors bestow it upon him in a prolonged moment of cavalier or negligent whimsy. That is why real plumbers do the extra training and consequently get paid the extra money.
Wikipedia should not deliberately aid a personality who is increasingly notorious for his penchant for self-inflation and misrepresentation, by intentionally disregarding such well documented and thoroughly discussed facts. These facts and other credible support were cited above (but have since been largely removed) and now widely available to the non-Wikipedia-reading public.
The only clog hindering what should be Wikipedia's PUBLIC work appears to be an over-inflated, stubborn, self-important über-editorial ego, greased over with a veneer of false logic and pseudo-objectivity. This, more than anything else, threatens Wikipedia's credibility and usefulness.
I can see Wikipedia will have competition in the near future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.117.84 ( talk) 21:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
It also expresses legitimate concern about the fact that editors at Wikipedia effectively stifled a substantial amount of public dialog and consensus that was making the same point, and many of whom included wonderfully incisive arguments and citations, but all to no effect because they were continually countered with weak, dismissive and illogical justifications for why the man in question should be represented as something other than he is. Their corrections to the article were repeatedly reverted, and ultimately, it looks like the majority of their discussion which argued against how the article is currently presented, was even removed from the discussion page.
It’s an appeal for Wiki Foundation to have a look at their employees’ work and see if the spirit of the project and the public is being served here, or increasingly polluted by personal agendas or egos.
They are: to keep Wikipedia as accurate as possible and as much of a public (rather than editorial) work of consensus as possible, and to correct this article to reflect Wurtzelbacher's actual pay grade: plumber's assistant.
67.40.179.58 ( talk) 22:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Wading back in - clearly there's two notions of "plumber" - the broad non-specific meaning that covers anyone who works on plumbing, and the more specific "profession" that has training and licensing requirements. In my view, it's better for this article to explain these differences since they are obviously at the core of this debate and help explain to the man and the meme. And I have not heard a convincing argument for why we should default to the imprecise explanation only. Mattnad ( talk) 00:19, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
its an insult to my friend, justin, and all other actual plumbers in the usa to call s. joe a plumber. i have worked on my sink, toilet and shower, but i would only call myself a plumber if i finished an apprenticeship in plumbing and got myself licensed. my father is a pilot and i have routinely flown with him, but i am not a pilot. the fact that i know how to fly and do it frequently does not make me a pilot.
Collect keeps saying there is a consensus to make it plumber and not plumbers assistant (or something similar), but all i ever see are his arguments with multiple editors (hadnt heard from glynth till now). just because one editor is more pushy than all the rest doesnt make that editor right. i am always a proponent of making wikipedia more accurate than less and because of that i believe i have a convincing argument for s. joe being a plumbers assistant, or something similar.
ps, there are many other examples of people employed in a field who have different titles than those who do similar jobs. my expertise is in medicine so i instantly think of physician/physicians assistant and nurse/nurses assistant. my point is that no amount of knowledge or experience transforms the assistant into the other title- only the appropriate training/schooling does. basically, working like a plumber does not make one a plumber.
i would love to see a logical argument against what i just stated in the previous two sentences. Brendan19 ( talk) 19:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Collect , please dont twist my words. i never said you were "alone." what i said was that in THIS discussion on THIS page i seem to see you making the same argument against multiple others. if others agree with you why cant that be seen HERE on this discussion. wouldnt that make more sense?
also, you never answered my question, so i will ask again...
my point is that no amount of knowledge or experience transforms the assistant into the other title- only the appropriate training/schooling does. basically, working like a plumber does not make one a plumber.
i would love to see a logical argument against what i just stated in the previous two sentences. Brendan19 ( talk) 21:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
i could not agree with your last sentence more. perhaps you should take your own advice. i found the archived discussion you mentioned and i believe it shows that many agree and disagree with you, yet you claim it as evidence that you have a consensus. that aside, why do you refuse to answer my above requests for logical arguments? Brendan19 ( talk) 23:03, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I now believe the “Joe the Plumber” article can be improved by
Harmless or reasonable suggestions like that should not provoke a compulsive need to keep replying, but if they do, strict limits should be enforced for how often they are indulged in. (In fact it raises an issue of putting low response limits on some editors’ commentary.)
The most persistent one seems to combine a certain lofty sneering tone with attempted bullying and an attack using sheer proliferation in the number of dissenting replies, all from the same individual. This behavior is preventing true consensus from being heard or reached. The article can be improved by desisting with the attack method, and allowing different users’ voices and reasoning to be heard and respected, without the accompaniment of knee-jerk dissent replies, sneering or lame responses.
63.226.210.77 ( talk) 00:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Look, right now, stop criticizing the other editors and demanding that others do the work for you. If you don't stop with the criticism of everyone else this second, I'm locking the page and we are moving on. If you want something, you do the work and ask for it. Don't insult other people. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 00:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
ricky, not so sure that was necessary. 62.266.../anon person, wikipedia can be frustrating. dont give up, help make it better. i think you had very good points. try to make sure nobody could be offended by your comments and try not to attack anyone. sound arguments should win (theoretically anyway) over silliness provided there are enough reasonable people out there to judge. lest we get distracted... i say s. joe is no plumber. im still waiting to hear a logical argument against that. (please see my above comments). Brendan19 ( talk) 03:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Please add his Wikiquote page link.
JtP on Wikiquote Sewnmouthsecret ( talk) 18:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Try to be civil, unsigned. Collect ( talk) 11:14, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
For some reason, I find empahsis on a crack on a plumber's ass and calling a plumber a "turd gurgler" to not actually present a valid try at improving an article. Amazing! Collect ( talk) 00:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Ugh, I do not understand why there is so much depth and detail on this person. His lasting importance will be his role in the 2008 campaign, and anything else should be short and tight, particularly post-election "opinion" sections and anything about his ordinary employment. I don't think he has the lasting visibility and influence as a commentator to merit listing all the details of his current opinions and writings/comments. I mean, do we need to know that this ordinary man thought the Founding Fathers were against Communism, or that he promoted cable boxes? Honestly, in five years that will not belong in WP, so I don't see why it should be there now.
The article as it stands is a solid one with a bunch of trivia and anecdotes tacked on, many there just to make him look bad -- see some of the discussions above (mind you, I'm not a fan of Joe).
Thoughts? Am I wrong? I'll be happy to cut, if people agree with me, as I am good at it. - Jordgette ( talk) 08:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Here's what I propose:
- Jordgette ( talk) 20:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I've made a user subpage with a draft of my edit. I don't think I touched anything before the new section called Political ambitions, and everything after that has been massively reorganized and digested. Anyone interested, please check it out and let me know what you think. After incorporating suggestions, I'd like to move it over in about 48 hours. Thanks! - Jordgette ( talk) 06:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Nice work. A much better article. Mattnad ( talk) 09:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
As a non-US outsider (who could conceivably underestimate Joe's notability), I consider even the user-page version much too long. Two paragraphs, or so, seems more reasonable. Of course, if he in the future becomes a repeated best-selling author, a regular debater on CNN, whatnot, an article of this size may be relevant---but that is speculative and in the future. 88.77.134.151 ( talk) 12:48, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
Why is there even still an article about this guy? He's yesterday's news. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:44, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Looks like Joe's fame has helped in in minor legal scrapes [ [1]]
The article now reports Joe as making ungrammatical statements and therefore presents him in a poor light. The refs prove that this is unfair; the crappy syntax is the work of careless Wikipedia editors. Please fix. Rumiton ( talk) 15:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
or
or
So far I see three choices for better wording. At this point, which wording would be closest to NPOV? QuackGuru 19:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Tan has it right. And I don't see consensus growing for a qualifier. The vast majority of news coverage refers to him as a plumber. Few refer to him as an unlicensed plumber. He was called a plumber by both presidential canidates. And McCain went on a "Joe the Plumber" bus campaign tour in Florida, not a "Joe the Unlicensed Plumber" tour. But even more importantly, to call him an unlicensed plumber in the infobox or lede is to imply that he is breaking the law by operating illegally, and that denigrates him and causes harm, the essence of a WP:BLP violation. It has been established that he is operating legally under the supervision of his boss, licensed as a plumber by the City of Toledo and the State of Ohio. That information is in the article in the section on his plumbing career. Where it belongs, since there the opposing viewpoints can be brought out, otherwise it's also a WP:NPOV and/or WP:UNDUE violation. What's next, change the infobox to (hypothetically) say: Plumber (unlicensed except he's operating legally under his supervisor's legal license, as long as he doesn't contract independently, and not outside of Toledo, since his boss is licensed there, and not in the rest of the county, since his boss is not licensed there.) Further, plumbing is a trade, it's not at a professional level where an academic degree (often a doctorate) is required. Trades learn from union or non-union vocational schools, apprenticeships, and on-the-job-training (OJT). The comparison between plumber and physician is ridiculous based on education, training, experience, and licensing requirements. Finally, to the general public, if someone installs and fixed pipes and plumbing fixtures, he's a plumber. — Becksguy ( talk) 20:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
If you want to go simply by most common Internet usage:
unlicensed Plumber is by far the most common. Plumber's assistant is the least common. Kingturtle ( talk) 20:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I also tried:
unlicensed Plumber is by far the most common usage. Kingturtle ( talk) 20:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Google hits are not the best way to compare, but compare the following:
making the unqualified "Plumber" usage the most common by multiple orders of magnitude in one case. — Becksguy ( talk) 21:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
You lost me in your argument. How can you make a case that unlicensed shouldn't be used when you've removed the word from both of your searches. Please clarify your point. Kingturtle ( talk) 00:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Think it's a good time to tally the viewpoints here? Mattnad ( talk) 10:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
And back to the content of the article - Is there no record of what his official job title within the company is? If we don't have that, I am still wondering what is the best way to show: "It has been established that he is operating legally under the supervision of his boss, licensed as a plumber by the City of Toledo and the State of Ohio." Then that is what we need to establish in the most concise terms possible, because the simplie identification as "plumber" implies that he has the ability to act legally as a plumber on his own. -- The Red Pen of Doom 12:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Look, we've already seen the definition of what an assistant or helper of a plumber does, and it doesn't match what we can confidently assume JtP does. Any "supervision" that a licensed plumber gives him is purely a formality, since from all the sources it appears that he knows how to plumb on his own. And that's all that matters. He is a plumber, and what laws happen to exist in his area governing what work he can legally do, and where he can do it, do not interest me in the least. A legislature can't turn a plumber into a non-plumber just by passing a law, any more than it can change a writer into a non-writer, or a dog into a non-dog. -- Zsero ( talk) 17:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
OK. There's a lot to read here, and I'm pretty sure I'm missing many of the points. But I think Joe does plumbing, but he's not a full plumber yet. At least in Ohio where he works, there's a license to be a plumber. Joe doesn't have that yet. So do we call him the same thing as someone who is licensed? The article about the Union saying he isn't really a plumber says a lot to me. It's like expert testimony. Sure, they probably don't like Joe's politics, but I think it's more about pride in the profession and that there's a difference between someone who has trained, studied and been tested, and all of those other guys who haven't. The other thing is that people are making a big deal out of whether or not he's a plumber - that says something about "title". It's not to be taken lightly here. So I think Victorcoutin's researched name, "Plumber's Apprentice", is fair, accurate, and lets the article explain the battle over the name. Bruno23 ( talk) 21:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
There is no uncertainty about it. Factually, conceptually, etc., the occupation in question, as it applies specifically to this man, is ACCURATELY described as a plumber's assistant. He may moonlight as a plumber to save the company from having to hire another fully licensed one, but he cannot legally or professionally presume to use the title, nor should editors bestow it upon him in a prolonged moment of cavalier or negligent whimsy. That is why real plumbers do the extra training and consequently get paid the extra money. Wikipedia should not deliberately aid a personality who is increasingly notorious for his penchant for self-inflation and misrepresentation, by intentionally disregarding such well documented and thoroughly discussed facts. These facts and other credible support are cited above and now widely available to the non-Wikipedia-reading public.
The only clog hindering what should be Wikipedia's PUBLIC work appears to be an over-inflated, stubborn, self-important über-editorial ego, greased over with a veneer of false logic and pseudo-objectivity. This, more than anything else, threatens Wikipedia's credibility and usefulness.
One editor has unilaterally decided that the Ohio searches have nothing to do with this article. He REMOVED the section, which I reverted. I consider such a removal to be close to vandalism. He sought no consensus prior to such a wholesale snipping of the article, and he thinks that people are more interested in Jones-Kelly than in this article where the section belongs. Collect ( talk) 12:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
The latest characterization of Joe as a "plumber's assistant" appears problematic. A search in Google News finds no sources referring to Wurzelbacher as a "plumber's assistant", but several thousand as a "plumber". It would appear that the characterization as a "plumber's assistant" is a synthesis based on interpretations and descriptions of the types of services he has performed which would also present issues of WP:OR. Without reliable and verifiable independent sources to back the claim of "plumber's assistant", it should be removed. Alansohn ( talk) 13:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
It is certainly possible to perform all the tasks that a licensed plumber is allowed to do without a license, and it appears that Joe has done these things. Calling him a "plumber" not only appears to be supported by the preponderance of reliable and verifiable sources, overwhelming the single source that calls him a "plumber's assistant", it appears to be what he does for a living. The authorities in Ohio may be justified in sanctioning him for the practice of plumbing without a license, but should that effect our decision of what to call him.(unsigned)
I hate to point out the obvious, but "plumber" is an occupation and "plumber's assistant" is a job title. Think District Attorney vs Assistant District Attorney. Or think of "Senior Engineer" vs "Junior Engineer". Joe is a plumber, regardless of whether his job title given to him by his employer is "associate plumber", "plumber's assistant", "head toilet man", etc. -- B ( talk) 02:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Note: REMOVING "occupation" unilaterally is contrary to any accepted WP practices. Anyone who tries that joke again will be reported. Thanks.
Collect (
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12:10, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
This page has been sysop protected due to persistent edit warring. Tan | 39 14:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
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Re-insertion of the consensus accepted section on the Ohio database searches. Thanks! Collect ( talk) 18:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Done
Thanks. Ism schism ( talk) 20:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotect}} Mortals such as myself can't edit the article, would a higher entity please remove the frustrating Wikilinking of "Joe Wurzelbacher" (it redirects to this article obviously). Cheers adminz. — Realist
It occured to me that Joe is really more notable as a political activist than as a plumber. No one really cares about his plumbing work. (Please check out Cindy Sheehan for an article on a similar, although as of now more important, person.) Steve Dufour ( talk) 16:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that part of the problem is the difference between Joe the amateur political activist and Joe the example used by McCain in the debate. Steve Dufour ( talk) 23:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Also it's the differences in the representation of "Joe the Plumber" (JtP) as a cultural icon (which was in use at least as early as the 1940s), JtP as a 2008 political campaign metaphor, JtP as Joe Wurzelbacher (a plumber and a person), and JtP as whatever he is trying to set himself up as (political activist, singer, media star, whatever). And the article is uneven in it's treatment of these various aspects. And yes, far too much attention is being paid to JtP as a person, when he's famous and notable as an election metaphor (or meme), not as a person. — Becksguy ( talk) 00:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
This comment isn't supported by the ref that goes with it, in fact that reference says the opposite: "Mr. Wurzelbacher said he works under Al Newell’s license, but according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do plumbing work." This either needs a different source for the sentence to say, otherwise it should be changed to reflect what the linked article actually says. If various sources conflict on whether or not he needs his own license, I'd be fine with the article mentioning that the fact is in dispute with links to sources giving both sides. Obviously, best case would be a link to the actual Ohio building regulation that clears it up if someone can find it. -- Minderbinder ( talk) 17:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what part of my comment you consider a misstatement, I was making a direct quote from the source used in this article so if you consider it a misstatement, your beef is with the Toledo Blade, not me. Nor do I see how I could be engaging in OR since all I am saying is to pass on exactly what the sources say. As I keep saying and as you keep ignoring, there are a number of sources that are contradictory on this issue, some say he is a plumber, some say flat out that he is not, some say he needs a license in ohio, some say he does not.
My original point still stands, that the sentence in the article isn't supported by the source provided. Thanks for finding the actual regulations, I'll try to reword it and use that as a source. Unfortunately, that source still doesn't clear up the issue of whether the guy is really a plumber or not, and the sources we do have seem to be mixed on that question. -- Minderbinder ( talk) 19:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)Yes, exactly. The way it would work, is that if Newell (Joe's boss, the plumber with the license) sends Joe out on a job on his own, it's Newell's license which is on the line. Newell probably should inspect the job when it's done, but if he trusts Joe enough - he likely doesn't even do that on a regular basis if at all. Joe can't contract jobs on his own. All jobs are going to be contracted out under Newell's license and his bond. Any errors made by Joe are Newell's responsibility. If Joe should make a disastrous error it could possibly cause Newell to lose his license or his bond. Joe hasn't any legal liability, he doesn't make contracts. Additionally I looked up Newell's license online and he is also licensed separately to do hydronics. So Joe may be installing hydronic systems too. VictorC ( talk) 17:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
This is because in America, these references to well paid plumbers are to master plumbers. In America, when we say plumber we usually mean master plumber in making these seemingly denigrating comments about whom the speaker believes to be overpaid. No I say. Thus when referring to an American as a plumber, please reserve it for these high status master plumbers. I do not know how it is in other English speaking worlds like Australia, Canada, New Zee or the U.K. LaidOff ( talk) 00:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)m
Joe the Plumber, is a plumber, whether he is licensed or not. Whether he has to work under the supervision of another or not. It doesn't matter if his job title is Master Plumber, Journeyman Plumber, Apprentice Plumber, Illegal Plumber, Unlicensed Plumber, if his primary role is to work plumbing, then he is a plumber. I mentioned that I have two inlaws who are in construction. One is a Journeyman Instrumentationalist. He's been doing his job for over a decade now and is considered one of the experts where he works---when you consider the overtime and per diem he makes close to 6 figures. He has never joined a Union. Now according to the local union, if he wants a job at a Union Shop, he would come in as an apprentice because they do not consider him to be a true instrumentationalist. I'm an auditor, I've been doing it for a long time. I make good money doing it. There are "night auditors" making 10$ per hour who I don't consider to be true auditors, but guess what, despite my personal bias, they are still auditors. My point is, if it is his job, and what he does, then guess what it is what he is.--- Balloonman PoppaBalloon 15:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Balloonman is correct, he's a plumber. Per numerous arguments and a preponderance of reliable sources. Doctor is not a viable analogy as an unlicensed person can not practice medicine under the supervision of a licensed doctor. However, plumbers and electricians even if unlicensed, can perform their trade under the supervision of a licensed person. — Becksguy ( talk) 16:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
That's my point, Tan. The majority of reliable sources refer to him as a "plumber'. Yes, the other terms (unlicensed, assistant, helper, apprentice) are used, but they are a minority. — Becksguy ( talk) 16:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
As I said somewhere above. Yes, lede and infobox say "plumber" per WP:V and WP:UNDUE. Any minority views, qualifications, etc. go into the plumbing career section to present all significant viewpoints. — Becksguy ( talk) 18:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
But according to the logic of he does plumbing so he's a plumber, we have lots of lawyers here who are not Admitted in any state of the union. Why hasn't anyone answered my point? Because they are wrong and I am right. If you were to treat plumbing as a profession with equal respect as the law, you would not call unlicensed folks plumbers. Therefore all the people here who insist on calling these folks plumbers either do not equally respect the plumbing profession or they are illogocal. LaidOff ( talk) 22:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Huh? New York Times, Washington Post, Washington Times, Fox, CNN -- how many do you want? Not to mention the overwhelming consensus of neutral editors on WP:BLP/N. Meanwhile you claim that only 1 in 21 sources call him a "plumber" -- I think you must now come up with about 100 to make your case <g>. Collect ( talk) 03:18, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
On the eve of the EU opening up labor mobility, the French trade unionists were all revolting for fear of the Polish plumbers who would invade France and drive down wages. Alas, when the doors opened, the Poles al went to London! ;) Plumbers have been used as examples of bad news or fear... as when people decry the high cost of services... but when you pipe bursts you need a man for the service, service which cannot be outsourced! Likewise trial court room lawyers cannot be outsourced! LaidOff ( talk) 00:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
In what way was the last comment intended to improve the article? Collect ( talk) 14:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I can't believe that people are actually debating this. He plumbs. He is a plumber. Whether or not he is licensed does not matter; he practices the trade, therefore the word that describes someone who practices the trade is completely appropriate. Celarnor Talk to me 01:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I would also love to see a section on historical usage of the phrase. Note that several of these references are from before Joe Wuzelbacher was born. Here are User:Edison's valuable contributions, reformatted for readability, chrono sorted, and referenced as best I could, all from Google News Archive:
(about President Truman): ...the only time they worry about him is when he asks for the wheel of one of the White House cars, and starts passing trucks on blind hills, just like Joe the plumber out for a Sunday spin with the kids and the old lady.
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help) Published: November 11, 1984And quoting Edison (02:31, 10-27-08): Thus the meme "Joe the Plumber["] long predates Wurgelwitz first picking up a pipe wrench, with or without a license.
We need to cover the historic usage of the metaphor or meme in a section which complements the current occurrence. Anyone have suggestions for that section? — Becksguy ( talk) 04:57, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
It shows that "Joe the Plumber" as a phrase or meme predates this occurrence by decades. McCain didn't invent the metaphor, but he did catapult it into fame and notability. It supports the position that the article is not just a biography of Joe Wurzelbacher, nicknamed "Joe the Plumber", but is also about the cultural archetype of "Joe the Plumber", separate from the person behind it. Think about John Doe, Joe Shmoe, John Q. Public, and others. But especially about Rosie the Riveter, which is closest in context, since there is also a real person behind that archetype or metaphor. — Becksguy ( talk) 18:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not claiming that the current usage is based on the historic usage (although it may have been). What I am claiming is that the symbolic term existed way before it's current usage. And the fact that it has been used before is encyclopedic and adds support for this article being about JtP as an archetype rather than just a nickname for Joe Wurzelbacher. Much like Rosie the Riveter. Joe the Plumber is much bigger and much more important than Joe the person. — Becksguy ( talk) 23:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Please avoid as it is disconcerting to find some comments suddenly gone. I understand removal of trolls, but removal of other material is not needed, especially when the people whose words are removed have to search to find them. Remember, once it goes to archive, it is a real pain to reconstruct threads. Thanks! Collect ( talk) 14:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Why does this article mention his statements on how Obama would destroy Israel is elected president? That was pretty widely reported in the last week or so of the election. Kuralyov ( talk) 18:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree the content on Israel does not belong in the article. Without an opposing viewpoint, it's POV and violates WP:NPOV. And it has very little to do with Joe the Plumber as a metaphor or even as a person, and more to do with an election smear against Obama, which makes it a WP:BLP violation. See the archived discussion: Talk:Joe the Plumber/Archive 4#Israel comments — Becksguy ( talk) 00:48, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
The relevance is that the transcript significantly clarifies that Sam Wurzelbacher lied to Obama and the press by misrepresenting himself to the candidate & public. The transcript succinctly shows Wurzelbacher posing as a man who could afford to buy a plumbing business above the $250,000. tax bracket, when his salary was really only $40,000. per year.
The transcript also clarifies and adds additional, relevant knowledge to "Joe the Plumber" as a metaphor, since it is now widely acknowledged in CNN and other news media that this specific creation of "Joe the Plumber", rather than being an organically developed "everyman", was built and increasingly developed off a fallacious foundation: Wurzelbacher was neither a licensed plumber, nor was he actually in a financial position to worry about the tax consequences to his potential profits should he proceed to buy a plumbing business that made slightly more than Obama's proposed tax cut limit. This gives new, added and intentional layers of meaning, or even mockery, to many contemporary references of the "Joe the Plumber" metaphor.
Additionally, the transcript adds context to WHY the definition of "Joe the Plumber" as a METAPHOR HAD TO BE CHANGED later and re-branded with the word "ASPIRING". The transcript shows the original incantation of a Joe the Plumber. Yet, because the man behind the metaphor began to be revealed as someone who had never been financially within the class of small business owners that the McCain campaign used the metaphor to appeal to, (as a counter to Obama's claims that McCain wasn't interested in helping people on "Main Street"). Therefore, later usage and definitions of the "Joe the Plumber" metaphor had to be shifted accordingly as facts continued to emerge which revealed increasingly embarrassing discrepancies between the early McCain-invoked metaphor and the actual person. Hence, "Joe the Plumber" as a metaphor was forced to shift in meaning from the embodiment of a moderately affluent and would-be small business owner, to an average "working-class" (as opposed to "moderately affluent") "Joe the Palooka", who -someday- hoped and aspired to be able to buy his own small business and have his own employees, and, so aspiring, wanted protections kept in place now against unfair taxation when that happy day arrived for him.
67.40.213.39 ( talk) 19:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
How is including the actual transcript of the encounter within the article a case of "editorializing" or "POV rearing its head"?
The transcript simply allows the facts to speak succinctly for themselves, rather than being interpreted by various "impartial" editors. 71.35.117.84 ( talk) 21:07, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Looks like JTP is going to appear in a series of commercials:
"Joe Wurzelbacher, better know as Joe the Plumber, signed a deal with an online converter box retailer, VelocityStore.com, to star in a series of educational videos to inform TV watchers about what the transition is all about, how to hook up a converter box and how to get a government-sponsored coupon to help buy a box." Hart, Kim (2008-11-25). "Joe the Plumber's Next Gig: DTV Transition Spokesman", Washington Post. -- GateKeeper( X) @ 16:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
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Ism schism (
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01:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher was born December 3, 1973. Joe is very notable. His DOB should be in the article like any other article. QuackGuru 02:13, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Oh My Gosh! You are the official decider-in-chief here? Notability is something which has not been set by consensus here.
Collect (
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19:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
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The protection tag on the top of the page is an eyesore, and could distract readers. Could it be made smaller or less conspicuous? Thanks. ♪ Tempo Di Valse♪ 18:39, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
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There is no uncertainty about it. Factually, conceptually, etc., the occupation in question, as it applies specifically to this man, is ACCURATELY described as a plumber's assistant. He may moonlight as a plumber to save the company from having to hire another fully licensed one, but he cannot legally or professionally presume to use the title, nor should editors bestow it upon him in a prolonged moment of cavalier or negligent whimsy. That is why real plumbers do the extra training and consequently get paid the extra money.
Wikipedia should not deliberately aid a personality who is increasingly notorious for his penchant for self-inflation and misrepresentation, by intentionally disregarding such well documented and thoroughly discussed facts. These facts and other credible support were cited above (but have since been largely removed) and now widely available to the non-Wikipedia-reading public.
The only clog hindering what should be Wikipedia's PUBLIC work appears to be an over-inflated, stubborn, self-important über-editorial ego, greased over with a veneer of false logic and pseudo-objectivity. This, more than anything else, threatens Wikipedia's credibility and usefulness.
I can see Wikipedia will have competition in the near future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.117.84 ( talk) 21:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
It also expresses legitimate concern about the fact that editors at Wikipedia effectively stifled a substantial amount of public dialog and consensus that was making the same point, and many of whom included wonderfully incisive arguments and citations, but all to no effect because they were continually countered with weak, dismissive and illogical justifications for why the man in question should be represented as something other than he is. Their corrections to the article were repeatedly reverted, and ultimately, it looks like the majority of their discussion which argued against how the article is currently presented, was even removed from the discussion page.
It’s an appeal for Wiki Foundation to have a look at their employees’ work and see if the spirit of the project and the public is being served here, or increasingly polluted by personal agendas or egos.
They are: to keep Wikipedia as accurate as possible and as much of a public (rather than editorial) work of consensus as possible, and to correct this article to reflect Wurtzelbacher's actual pay grade: plumber's assistant.
67.40.179.58 ( talk) 22:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Wading back in - clearly there's two notions of "plumber" - the broad non-specific meaning that covers anyone who works on plumbing, and the more specific "profession" that has training and licensing requirements. In my view, it's better for this article to explain these differences since they are obviously at the core of this debate and help explain to the man and the meme. And I have not heard a convincing argument for why we should default to the imprecise explanation only. Mattnad ( talk) 00:19, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
its an insult to my friend, justin, and all other actual plumbers in the usa to call s. joe a plumber. i have worked on my sink, toilet and shower, but i would only call myself a plumber if i finished an apprenticeship in plumbing and got myself licensed. my father is a pilot and i have routinely flown with him, but i am not a pilot. the fact that i know how to fly and do it frequently does not make me a pilot.
Collect keeps saying there is a consensus to make it plumber and not plumbers assistant (or something similar), but all i ever see are his arguments with multiple editors (hadnt heard from glynth till now). just because one editor is more pushy than all the rest doesnt make that editor right. i am always a proponent of making wikipedia more accurate than less and because of that i believe i have a convincing argument for s. joe being a plumbers assistant, or something similar.
ps, there are many other examples of people employed in a field who have different titles than those who do similar jobs. my expertise is in medicine so i instantly think of physician/physicians assistant and nurse/nurses assistant. my point is that no amount of knowledge or experience transforms the assistant into the other title- only the appropriate training/schooling does. basically, working like a plumber does not make one a plumber.
i would love to see a logical argument against what i just stated in the previous two sentences. Brendan19 ( talk) 19:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Collect , please dont twist my words. i never said you were "alone." what i said was that in THIS discussion on THIS page i seem to see you making the same argument against multiple others. if others agree with you why cant that be seen HERE on this discussion. wouldnt that make more sense?
also, you never answered my question, so i will ask again...
my point is that no amount of knowledge or experience transforms the assistant into the other title- only the appropriate training/schooling does. basically, working like a plumber does not make one a plumber.
i would love to see a logical argument against what i just stated in the previous two sentences. Brendan19 ( talk) 21:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
i could not agree with your last sentence more. perhaps you should take your own advice. i found the archived discussion you mentioned and i believe it shows that many agree and disagree with you, yet you claim it as evidence that you have a consensus. that aside, why do you refuse to answer my above requests for logical arguments? Brendan19 ( talk) 23:03, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I now believe the “Joe the Plumber” article can be improved by
Harmless or reasonable suggestions like that should not provoke a compulsive need to keep replying, but if they do, strict limits should be enforced for how often they are indulged in. (In fact it raises an issue of putting low response limits on some editors’ commentary.)
The most persistent one seems to combine a certain lofty sneering tone with attempted bullying and an attack using sheer proliferation in the number of dissenting replies, all from the same individual. This behavior is preventing true consensus from being heard or reached. The article can be improved by desisting with the attack method, and allowing different users’ voices and reasoning to be heard and respected, without the accompaniment of knee-jerk dissent replies, sneering or lame responses.
63.226.210.77 ( talk) 00:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Look, right now, stop criticizing the other editors and demanding that others do the work for you. If you don't stop with the criticism of everyone else this second, I'm locking the page and we are moving on. If you want something, you do the work and ask for it. Don't insult other people. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 00:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
ricky, not so sure that was necessary. 62.266.../anon person, wikipedia can be frustrating. dont give up, help make it better. i think you had very good points. try to make sure nobody could be offended by your comments and try not to attack anyone. sound arguments should win (theoretically anyway) over silliness provided there are enough reasonable people out there to judge. lest we get distracted... i say s. joe is no plumber. im still waiting to hear a logical argument against that. (please see my above comments). Brendan19 ( talk) 03:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Please add his Wikiquote page link.
JtP on Wikiquote Sewnmouthsecret ( talk) 18:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Try to be civil, unsigned. Collect ( talk) 11:14, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
For some reason, I find empahsis on a crack on a plumber's ass and calling a plumber a "turd gurgler" to not actually present a valid try at improving an article. Amazing! Collect ( talk) 00:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Ugh, I do not understand why there is so much depth and detail on this person. His lasting importance will be his role in the 2008 campaign, and anything else should be short and tight, particularly post-election "opinion" sections and anything about his ordinary employment. I don't think he has the lasting visibility and influence as a commentator to merit listing all the details of his current opinions and writings/comments. I mean, do we need to know that this ordinary man thought the Founding Fathers were against Communism, or that he promoted cable boxes? Honestly, in five years that will not belong in WP, so I don't see why it should be there now.
The article as it stands is a solid one with a bunch of trivia and anecdotes tacked on, many there just to make him look bad -- see some of the discussions above (mind you, I'm not a fan of Joe).
Thoughts? Am I wrong? I'll be happy to cut, if people agree with me, as I am good at it. - Jordgette ( talk) 08:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Here's what I propose:
- Jordgette ( talk) 20:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I've made a user subpage with a draft of my edit. I don't think I touched anything before the new section called Political ambitions, and everything after that has been massively reorganized and digested. Anyone interested, please check it out and let me know what you think. After incorporating suggestions, I'd like to move it over in about 48 hours. Thanks! - Jordgette ( talk) 06:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Nice work. A much better article. Mattnad ( talk) 09:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
As a non-US outsider (who could conceivably underestimate Joe's notability), I consider even the user-page version much too long. Two paragraphs, or so, seems more reasonable. Of course, if he in the future becomes a repeated best-selling author, a regular debater on CNN, whatnot, an article of this size may be relevant---but that is speculative and in the future. 88.77.134.151 ( talk) 12:48, 15 September 2009 (UTC)