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Umm, why is Klein identified as Jewish in the last sentence because he's not Umm Umm, why is Klein identified in the Pelham Wikipedia??? --- On that note there is a weird drop-in here:
"In 1969, Klein began reporting for the Essex County Newspapers in Massachusettsthrough his Jewish family's connections with Jewish publishers, editors and writers in the media."
I guess all the Jewish references seem... excessive?
67.174.38.227 04:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
? Is this relevant to his writing? Should this be removed? 171.159.64.10 19:58, 30 January 2006 (UTC) Bert
No bio of a person Klein's age (particularly a writer who has an ideological viewpoint as Klein does) is complete without explaining how he avoided the draft and Vietnam (as Klein did). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.147.74 ( talk) 01:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
User:Equinox137 has removed the word "moderate" from the opening paragraph with the following comment: <this guy worked for "The New Yorker" and is a Clinton apologist - there's nothing "moderate" about him> I am not sufficiently familiar with (1) Mr. Klein's views, nor (2) Policy regarding the use of political labels to confidently restore or support this edit. However, a few points occur to me:
So I request a more specific and detailed notation of Mr. Klein's political views. Zahir13 12:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Whatever he is on the poltiical spectrum you need to be careful how we describe him in the article. This is a biography of a living person - Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons and we cannot add any seriously contentious material. I think that if we are to describe his political viewpoint we could write Klein describes himself as liberal<reference> but some of his colleagues/opponents (whatever) describe him as moderate<reference>. That would address both your views so long as we add references from reputable sources for both. LordHarris 07:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, ive tried to wikify the article and make it a bit more orderly. I have also attempted to write a section on his political views in his writings. I have read two of his books and a lot of his times articles, but it is difficult to judge a writers political ideas when they dont state them out loud and clear. I have written:
"His writings are generally considered to be moderate on the political spectrum, specifically in regards to his attempts to treat both Democratic and Republican news stories with an objective opinion. In his review of the Clinton Presidency "The Natural" he presents both a critical view and a favourable view on Clintons Presidency. However recently in several of his articles, such as "The Absurdity of it All"" in Time, he has criticised George W Bush and the Republican White House over some foreign policy mishaps."
If you have any complaints with this then please edit/discuss with me on my discussion. LordHarris 00:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Klein committed some major journalistic malpractice against the Congressional Democrats and the liberals are (quite justifiably, in my opinion) livid
[6]. Some intemperate souls may vandalize the page.
--
Nbahn (
talk) 06:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I freely admit that I'm not very good with this; edits and criticism are welcome.
Nbahn (
talk) 02:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Joe Klein has many many more controversies under his belt, including a flap where he lied about criticism Markos of daily Kos heaped upon Obama for some ill-conceived comments. Nicholastarwin ( talk) 14:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems somewhat overblown to focus so much on a current event, without providing a bit more background on this guy as a reporter. It also only provides a very subjective viewpoint (that of his detractors). 213.84.174.46 ( talk) 20:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Generally the {{
current}} and its relatives are used only for articles with many editors involved. As in a hundred or more, and even then, for a few days only. I recommend that the editors put the text of the change-ableness of the controversy into the article itself.
Yellowdesk (
talk) 03:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm an ass. I should have carefully read the article before making changes. Veteran editors may want to carefully go over my changes...
--
Nbahn (
talk) 05:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with this, if it's all true and sources properly. DRosenbach ( Talk | Contribs) 04:13, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with that section. It is WAY out of proportion to Mr. Klein's career at Time. Under BLP and WP:WEIGHT, it must be reduced significantly in size.-- Samiharris ( talk) 14:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I have taken the liberty of doing so, as I believe is mandated under WP:BLP and WP:WEIGHT. Please do not revert until other reaction arrives from the BLP noticeboard, where I have requested input.-- Samiharris ( talk) 15:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Since it now appears that Klein did admit the error to Howartz Kurtz (I saw a reference to that posted somewhere) I'm withdrawing my objection to adding the original language, though I believe the Kurtz article should be cited.-- Samiharris ( talk) 19:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
(restoring indent) I think it would be helpful to provide a bit more nuanced language in this section. While it has now been clarified that this indeed was an error, right now that comprises half the section and that troubles me just a little. (I know, I'm changing my mind from above - so sue me! ;)) It clearly was not half his career at Time. The Howard Kurtz column [7] can be used as a source as it deals directly with Klein's position. Maybe the language can be modified a bit. Any thoughts?-- Samiharris ( talk) 14:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know that much about Mr. Klein, so I'm probably not the proper person to check for neutrality here. But, upon reading the article, I notice that virtually all the analysis of Mr. Klein presented (i.e. something other than simple statement of facts) is negative, or talks about critisism of him. This is particularly true in the two sections "Primary Colors", and "Working for Time", which cover the main part of his career. In those sections, all that is accusations that he is a liar or has trouble with the truth.
Surely, for example, something positive can be said about his writing at TIME? I doubt someone gets a regular column at TIME without something to recommend his work?
I realize that this is a minor thing; buuuuuut.....what, pray tell, is your reasoning for your edit? I am inclined to revert it.<br. />-- NBahn ( talk) 19:31, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Am I right that the previous version of the FISA controversy section was a finely-tuned compromise, that you guys were satisfied with? Does anyone like the new super-explicit version by Madman2001, that increases the size of the article about 40%? Curiously, this text is moved here from Time (magazine) on the grounds that it was imbalancing the Time article! I think we might take a hint from our colleagues at the other article that this section is an albatross that deserves to be minimized, or cut to the smallest size appropriate to the article it is in. Since this issue was Klein's mistake, it belongs here, but I think the version before Madman2001's edit is the one to keep. Madman should not be too displeased because I think his main goal was to get it out of the Time (magazine) article. What do you all think? EdJohnston ( talk) 04:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Re the recent edit placing material out of references into the text: I agree that the material did not belong in a reference. I had not noticed it. However, the overarching problem is that there is too much space devoted to the controversy with Greenwald in this article, given its size. -- Samiharris ( talk) 19:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I've basically finished writing up a paper on the Klein/Time controversy. Before I submit it for a formal review, I'd like to informally get some opinions on it. Scroll down on my user page and please discuss on my discussion page. Thanks!<br. />-- NBahn ( talk) 11:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I expect this to hit the mainstream media at some point. Here are some pointers to the current coverage of this:
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=43384
http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/07/joe_klein_on_neoconservatives.php
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/30/joe_klein_keeps_hitting_those/
-- John Bahrain ( talk) 15:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-levy/on-joe-klein-and-the-jewi_b_115999.html
-- John Bahrain ( talk) 17:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/why-is-joe-klei.html
-- John Bahrain ( talk) 21:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
...but I'm afraid that this edit is simply and utterly out of bounds if for no other reason then that it is an uncited opinion.<br. /> —NBahn ( talk) 13:02, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Saw Joe Klein on MSNBC today going against the union members in Wisconsin. I didn't hear him screaming about the rich paying their fair share, but was saying instead that everyone had to tighten their belts and that the union members in Wisconsin have too much by way of benefits. I was shocked. The problem with the economy is directly related to the Bush tax cuts, and the middle class is stuck with the bill. Joe Klein is so wrong. He should be ashamed. I can't stand him. He is obviously a beard for the rich. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.14.18 ( talk) 21:21, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
This [8] doesn't list a Peter Kihss award being given in 1989, nor does it list Joe Klein among the recipients at any time. Did he actually "lose" the award, as our article states? If so, perhaps the article could explain further. (Forgive my ignorance on the matter.)-- Wikimedes ( talk) 07:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Listen, people can vote whichever way they want, for whatever reason they want. I just don't want to see policy makers who make decisions on the basis of whether American policy will benefit Israel or not. In some cases, you want to provide protection for Israel certainly, but you don't want to go to war with Iran. When Jennifer Rubin or Abe Foxman calls me antisemitic, they're wrong. I am anti-neoconservative. I think these people are following very perversely extremist policies and I really did believe that it was time for mainstream Jews to stand up and say, "They don't represent us, they don't represent Israel." [9]
NNDB profile
--
Ubikwit
連絡
見学/迷惑 08:58, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
There are no doubt more sources, as he has appears to have notability for his high profile criticism of the neocons, as demonstrated by all of the spirces listed above; moreover, it is a fact that he self-identifies himself as such in an interview on the topic of his criticism of neocons (with Jewish neocons being singled out at points) for dual loyalty.
-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 13:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC)JG: You seem very angry at people who you specifically identify as Jewish neocons. And you're using the word "Jewish" in ways that we haven't seen Jewish reporters and Jewish columnists use.
This piece, the underlined statement in particular, includes another candidate for "specific and non-ambiguous self-identification"
I have now been called antisemitic and intellectually unstable and a whole bunch of other silly things by the folks over at the Commentary blog. They want Time Magazine to fire or silence me. This is happening because I said something that is palpably true, but unspoken in polite society: There is a small group of Jewish neoconservatives who...Happily, these people represent a very small sliver of the Jewish population in this country...I remain proud of my Jewish heritage, a strong supporter of Israel and a realist about the slim chance of finding some common ground with the Iranians. But I am not willing to grant these ideologues the anonymity they seek. When Extremists Attack
Note that it is also quoted in the HP article linked to above On Joe Klein and the Jewish Neoconservatives.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 13:26, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
[11] finally gives a source which is likely sufficient for Jewish ethnicity, but not for Jewish religion.
"Over 5000 years of history, we Jews have demonstrated a remarkable talent for survival, the promulgation of morality and justice, tolerance of others, terrible cuisine and an almost protozoan genius for subdividing ourselves."
— Joe Kein - Time (emphasis added)
"Where I come from–the outer boroughs of New York City–Jews were known for, and entertained ourselves by, arguing about everything. Nothing was ever off the table.""
— Joe Kein - Time (emphasis added)
does not make any religion claims but appears to meet the requirement for ethnicity. Thanks MrX for showing such a source - it is up to those making a claim to find sources, by the way. Collect ( talk) 14:42, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Klein was specifically addressing "Jewish neoconservatives" in his reliably published statements that generated the controversy which has become notable as demonstrated by his being questioned about his singling out of "Jewish neocons", and by other sources also specifically address the controversy, etc. There are numerous sources demonstrating notability, including quotes by Klein himself, Jeff Goldberg and Daniel Levy; i.e,
...the subject's beliefs... are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources
I have now been called antisemitic and intellectually unstable and a whole bunch of other silly things by the folks over at the Commentary blog. They want Time Magazine to fire or silence me. This is happening because I said something that is palpably true, but unspoken in polite society: There is a small group of Jewish neoconservatives who...Happily, these people represent a very small sliver of the Jewish population in this country...I remain proud of my Jewish heritage, a strong supporter of Israel and a realist about the slim chance of finding some common ground with the Iranians. But I am not willing to grant these ideologues the anonymity they seek. [1]
You may have missed it, but renowned Time columnist Joe Klein and the Jewish neoconservative blogosphere are at war with one another. [2]
"You seem very angry at people who you specifically identify as Jewish neocons. And you're using the word "Jewish" in ways that we haven't seen Jewish reporters and Jewish columnists use.” [3]
Joe Klein, a centrist columnist for Time magazine (and himself Jewish) wrote that the neocons pushed for the invasion 'to make the world safe for Israel'. [4]
-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:33, 16:11, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Minor problem: You conflate quotes by Klein with quotes about Klein. BLPCAT requires his words. Your last quote, for example, is from Jeffrey Goldberg and not from Klein. Your HuffPo post is not from Klein either. And Klein's comment about others calling him "anti-Semitic" does not mean he is self-identifying as Jewish either. I have noted that he has said he is of Jewish heritage - but that does not mean that WP:BLPCAT then says he is of Jewish religion. For that reason, there is an RfC for WP:BLP to see if that needs to be loosened or not. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 16:03, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- The problem is your obstructionist rhetoric and refusal to abide by WP:CONSENSUS. Three editors disagree, explicitly with your "parsing" regarding the meaning of "Jewish" and "Jew" by both Klein and others, and others referring to Klein as Jewish in the above context means that his Jewishness is notable to the controversy.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
"Jewish" falls under "religion" per many discussions at WP:BLP/N and was one of the reasons WP:BLPCAT exists. A consensus of three editors cannot override a Wikipedia policy. Nor am I convinced that his "Jewishness" is particularly notable and relevant for his BLP. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 18:35, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- Enough sources have been listed, but you refuse to recognize the obvious; furthermore, the Atlantic article links to the response from ADL's Foxman
[13], which includes a link to Klein's response.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 18:43, 7 February 2015 (UTC)We were deeply troubled by your outrageous assertion on Time Magazine's "Swampland" blog that Jewish neoconservatives "plumped" for the war in Iraq and are now doing the same for "an even more foolish assault on Iran" with the goal of making the world "safe for Israel." ("Surge Protection," June 24).
The Time source finally provided allows for the Jewish heritage which I added to the BLP. Your latest one fails as anything remotely near self-identification. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 18:46, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- ^ [1] When Extremists Attack, Joe Klein, Time, July 29, 2008
- ^ [2] On Joe Klein and the Jewish Neoconservatives, Huffington Post, May 25,2011
- ^ [3]Joe Klein on Neoconservatives and Iran, Atlantic, July 29, 2008
- ^ [4] Israelpolitik, the Neocons and the Long Shadow of the Iraq War, Danny Poste, Huffington Post, February 2, 2015
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There is not much about his later career in this section and a lot about controversies. How about more NPOV information on what he has been doing (such as who he has been working for, books he has published, etc.) and a separate section for controversies? Ghostofnemo ( talk) 12:24, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
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Umm, why is Klein identified as Jewish in the last sentence because he's not Umm Umm, why is Klein identified in the Pelham Wikipedia??? --- On that note there is a weird drop-in here:
"In 1969, Klein began reporting for the Essex County Newspapers in Massachusettsthrough his Jewish family's connections with Jewish publishers, editors and writers in the media."
I guess all the Jewish references seem... excessive?
67.174.38.227 04:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
? Is this relevant to his writing? Should this be removed? 171.159.64.10 19:58, 30 January 2006 (UTC) Bert
No bio of a person Klein's age (particularly a writer who has an ideological viewpoint as Klein does) is complete without explaining how he avoided the draft and Vietnam (as Klein did). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.147.74 ( talk) 01:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
User:Equinox137 has removed the word "moderate" from the opening paragraph with the following comment: <this guy worked for "The New Yorker" and is a Clinton apologist - there's nothing "moderate" about him> I am not sufficiently familiar with (1) Mr. Klein's views, nor (2) Policy regarding the use of political labels to confidently restore or support this edit. However, a few points occur to me:
So I request a more specific and detailed notation of Mr. Klein's political views. Zahir13 12:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Whatever he is on the poltiical spectrum you need to be careful how we describe him in the article. This is a biography of a living person - Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons and we cannot add any seriously contentious material. I think that if we are to describe his political viewpoint we could write Klein describes himself as liberal<reference> but some of his colleagues/opponents (whatever) describe him as moderate<reference>. That would address both your views so long as we add references from reputable sources for both. LordHarris 07:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, ive tried to wikify the article and make it a bit more orderly. I have also attempted to write a section on his political views in his writings. I have read two of his books and a lot of his times articles, but it is difficult to judge a writers political ideas when they dont state them out loud and clear. I have written:
"His writings are generally considered to be moderate on the political spectrum, specifically in regards to his attempts to treat both Democratic and Republican news stories with an objective opinion. In his review of the Clinton Presidency "The Natural" he presents both a critical view and a favourable view on Clintons Presidency. However recently in several of his articles, such as "The Absurdity of it All"" in Time, he has criticised George W Bush and the Republican White House over some foreign policy mishaps."
If you have any complaints with this then please edit/discuss with me on my discussion. LordHarris 00:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Klein committed some major journalistic malpractice against the Congressional Democrats and the liberals are (quite justifiably, in my opinion) livid
[6]. Some intemperate souls may vandalize the page.
--
Nbahn (
talk) 06:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I freely admit that I'm not very good with this; edits and criticism are welcome.
Nbahn (
talk) 02:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Joe Klein has many many more controversies under his belt, including a flap where he lied about criticism Markos of daily Kos heaped upon Obama for some ill-conceived comments. Nicholastarwin ( talk) 14:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems somewhat overblown to focus so much on a current event, without providing a bit more background on this guy as a reporter. It also only provides a very subjective viewpoint (that of his detractors). 213.84.174.46 ( talk) 20:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Generally the {{
current}} and its relatives are used only for articles with many editors involved. As in a hundred or more, and even then, for a few days only. I recommend that the editors put the text of the change-ableness of the controversy into the article itself.
Yellowdesk (
talk) 03:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm an ass. I should have carefully read the article before making changes. Veteran editors may want to carefully go over my changes...
--
Nbahn (
talk) 05:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with this, if it's all true and sources properly. DRosenbach ( Talk | Contribs) 04:13, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with that section. It is WAY out of proportion to Mr. Klein's career at Time. Under BLP and WP:WEIGHT, it must be reduced significantly in size.-- Samiharris ( talk) 14:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I have taken the liberty of doing so, as I believe is mandated under WP:BLP and WP:WEIGHT. Please do not revert until other reaction arrives from the BLP noticeboard, where I have requested input.-- Samiharris ( talk) 15:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Since it now appears that Klein did admit the error to Howartz Kurtz (I saw a reference to that posted somewhere) I'm withdrawing my objection to adding the original language, though I believe the Kurtz article should be cited.-- Samiharris ( talk) 19:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
(restoring indent) I think it would be helpful to provide a bit more nuanced language in this section. While it has now been clarified that this indeed was an error, right now that comprises half the section and that troubles me just a little. (I know, I'm changing my mind from above - so sue me! ;)) It clearly was not half his career at Time. The Howard Kurtz column [7] can be used as a source as it deals directly with Klein's position. Maybe the language can be modified a bit. Any thoughts?-- Samiharris ( talk) 14:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know that much about Mr. Klein, so I'm probably not the proper person to check for neutrality here. But, upon reading the article, I notice that virtually all the analysis of Mr. Klein presented (i.e. something other than simple statement of facts) is negative, or talks about critisism of him. This is particularly true in the two sections "Primary Colors", and "Working for Time", which cover the main part of his career. In those sections, all that is accusations that he is a liar or has trouble with the truth.
Surely, for example, something positive can be said about his writing at TIME? I doubt someone gets a regular column at TIME without something to recommend his work?
I realize that this is a minor thing; buuuuuut.....what, pray tell, is your reasoning for your edit? I am inclined to revert it.<br. />-- NBahn ( talk) 19:31, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Am I right that the previous version of the FISA controversy section was a finely-tuned compromise, that you guys were satisfied with? Does anyone like the new super-explicit version by Madman2001, that increases the size of the article about 40%? Curiously, this text is moved here from Time (magazine) on the grounds that it was imbalancing the Time article! I think we might take a hint from our colleagues at the other article that this section is an albatross that deserves to be minimized, or cut to the smallest size appropriate to the article it is in. Since this issue was Klein's mistake, it belongs here, but I think the version before Madman2001's edit is the one to keep. Madman should not be too displeased because I think his main goal was to get it out of the Time (magazine) article. What do you all think? EdJohnston ( talk) 04:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Re the recent edit placing material out of references into the text: I agree that the material did not belong in a reference. I had not noticed it. However, the overarching problem is that there is too much space devoted to the controversy with Greenwald in this article, given its size. -- Samiharris ( talk) 19:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I've basically finished writing up a paper on the Klein/Time controversy. Before I submit it for a formal review, I'd like to informally get some opinions on it. Scroll down on my user page and please discuss on my discussion page. Thanks!<br. />-- NBahn ( talk) 11:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I expect this to hit the mainstream media at some point. Here are some pointers to the current coverage of this:
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=43384
http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/07/joe_klein_on_neoconservatives.php
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/30/joe_klein_keeps_hitting_those/
-- John Bahrain ( talk) 15:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-levy/on-joe-klein-and-the-jewi_b_115999.html
-- John Bahrain ( talk) 17:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/why-is-joe-klei.html
-- John Bahrain ( talk) 21:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
...but I'm afraid that this edit is simply and utterly out of bounds if for no other reason then that it is an uncited opinion.<br. /> —NBahn ( talk) 13:02, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Saw Joe Klein on MSNBC today going against the union members in Wisconsin. I didn't hear him screaming about the rich paying their fair share, but was saying instead that everyone had to tighten their belts and that the union members in Wisconsin have too much by way of benefits. I was shocked. The problem with the economy is directly related to the Bush tax cuts, and the middle class is stuck with the bill. Joe Klein is so wrong. He should be ashamed. I can't stand him. He is obviously a beard for the rich. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.14.18 ( talk) 21:21, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
This [8] doesn't list a Peter Kihss award being given in 1989, nor does it list Joe Klein among the recipients at any time. Did he actually "lose" the award, as our article states? If so, perhaps the article could explain further. (Forgive my ignorance on the matter.)-- Wikimedes ( talk) 07:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Listen, people can vote whichever way they want, for whatever reason they want. I just don't want to see policy makers who make decisions on the basis of whether American policy will benefit Israel or not. In some cases, you want to provide protection for Israel certainly, but you don't want to go to war with Iran. When Jennifer Rubin or Abe Foxman calls me antisemitic, they're wrong. I am anti-neoconservative. I think these people are following very perversely extremist policies and I really did believe that it was time for mainstream Jews to stand up and say, "They don't represent us, they don't represent Israel." [9]
NNDB profile
--
Ubikwit
連絡
見学/迷惑 08:58, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
There are no doubt more sources, as he has appears to have notability for his high profile criticism of the neocons, as demonstrated by all of the spirces listed above; moreover, it is a fact that he self-identifies himself as such in an interview on the topic of his criticism of neocons (with Jewish neocons being singled out at points) for dual loyalty.
-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 13:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC)JG: You seem very angry at people who you specifically identify as Jewish neocons. And you're using the word "Jewish" in ways that we haven't seen Jewish reporters and Jewish columnists use.
This piece, the underlined statement in particular, includes another candidate for "specific and non-ambiguous self-identification"
I have now been called antisemitic and intellectually unstable and a whole bunch of other silly things by the folks over at the Commentary blog. They want Time Magazine to fire or silence me. This is happening because I said something that is palpably true, but unspoken in polite society: There is a small group of Jewish neoconservatives who...Happily, these people represent a very small sliver of the Jewish population in this country...I remain proud of my Jewish heritage, a strong supporter of Israel and a realist about the slim chance of finding some common ground with the Iranians. But I am not willing to grant these ideologues the anonymity they seek. When Extremists Attack
Note that it is also quoted in the HP article linked to above On Joe Klein and the Jewish Neoconservatives.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 13:26, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
[11] finally gives a source which is likely sufficient for Jewish ethnicity, but not for Jewish religion.
"Over 5000 years of history, we Jews have demonstrated a remarkable talent for survival, the promulgation of morality and justice, tolerance of others, terrible cuisine and an almost protozoan genius for subdividing ourselves."
— Joe Kein - Time (emphasis added)
"Where I come from–the outer boroughs of New York City–Jews were known for, and entertained ourselves by, arguing about everything. Nothing was ever off the table.""
— Joe Kein - Time (emphasis added)
does not make any religion claims but appears to meet the requirement for ethnicity. Thanks MrX for showing such a source - it is up to those making a claim to find sources, by the way. Collect ( talk) 14:42, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Klein was specifically addressing "Jewish neoconservatives" in his reliably published statements that generated the controversy which has become notable as demonstrated by his being questioned about his singling out of "Jewish neocons", and by other sources also specifically address the controversy, etc. There are numerous sources demonstrating notability, including quotes by Klein himself, Jeff Goldberg and Daniel Levy; i.e,
...the subject's beliefs... are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources
I have now been called antisemitic and intellectually unstable and a whole bunch of other silly things by the folks over at the Commentary blog. They want Time Magazine to fire or silence me. This is happening because I said something that is palpably true, but unspoken in polite society: There is a small group of Jewish neoconservatives who...Happily, these people represent a very small sliver of the Jewish population in this country...I remain proud of my Jewish heritage, a strong supporter of Israel and a realist about the slim chance of finding some common ground with the Iranians. But I am not willing to grant these ideologues the anonymity they seek. [1]
You may have missed it, but renowned Time columnist Joe Klein and the Jewish neoconservative blogosphere are at war with one another. [2]
"You seem very angry at people who you specifically identify as Jewish neocons. And you're using the word "Jewish" in ways that we haven't seen Jewish reporters and Jewish columnists use.” [3]
Joe Klein, a centrist columnist for Time magazine (and himself Jewish) wrote that the neocons pushed for the invasion 'to make the world safe for Israel'. [4]
-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:33, 16:11, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Minor problem: You conflate quotes by Klein with quotes about Klein. BLPCAT requires his words. Your last quote, for example, is from Jeffrey Goldberg and not from Klein. Your HuffPo post is not from Klein either. And Klein's comment about others calling him "anti-Semitic" does not mean he is self-identifying as Jewish either. I have noted that he has said he is of Jewish heritage - but that does not mean that WP:BLPCAT then says he is of Jewish religion. For that reason, there is an RfC for WP:BLP to see if that needs to be loosened or not. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 16:03, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- The problem is your obstructionist rhetoric and refusal to abide by WP:CONSENSUS. Three editors disagree, explicitly with your "parsing" regarding the meaning of "Jewish" and "Jew" by both Klein and others, and others referring to Klein as Jewish in the above context means that his Jewishness is notable to the controversy.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
"Jewish" falls under "religion" per many discussions at WP:BLP/N and was one of the reasons WP:BLPCAT exists. A consensus of three editors cannot override a Wikipedia policy. Nor am I convinced that his "Jewishness" is particularly notable and relevant for his BLP. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 18:35, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- Enough sources have been listed, but you refuse to recognize the obvious; furthermore, the Atlantic article links to the response from ADL's Foxman
[13], which includes a link to Klein's response.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 18:43, 7 February 2015 (UTC)We were deeply troubled by your outrageous assertion on Time Magazine's "Swampland" blog that Jewish neoconservatives "plumped" for the war in Iraq and are now doing the same for "an even more foolish assault on Iran" with the goal of making the world "safe for Israel." ("Surge Protection," June 24).
The Time source finally provided allows for the Jewish heritage which I added to the BLP. Your latest one fails as anything remotely near self-identification. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 18:46, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
- ^ [1] When Extremists Attack, Joe Klein, Time, July 29, 2008
- ^ [2] On Joe Klein and the Jewish Neoconservatives, Huffington Post, May 25,2011
- ^ [3]Joe Klein on Neoconservatives and Iran, Atlantic, July 29, 2008
- ^ [4] Israelpolitik, the Neocons and the Long Shadow of the Iraq War, Danny Poste, Huffington Post, February 2, 2015
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There is not much about his later career in this section and a lot about controversies. How about more NPOV information on what he has been doing (such as who he has been working for, books he has published, etc.) and a separate section for controversies? Ghostofnemo ( talk) 12:24, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
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