This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
1) The difficulty of removal of the clothes that she wore in prison is already discussed later; no need to duplicate the same information. If you want more information about the difficulty in removing them, add it where it is discussed or delete the other mention.
2) Removal of the fact that Summa Theologica does not excuse much of Joan's behavior is simply unacceptable. Otherwise, one is left with the impression (since the theological justifications for cross-dressing *are* mentioned) that it does excuse all of her cross dressing. It does not.
3) The fact that she considered it a divine requirement to keep her male clothes is already discussed; again, no duplication, please.
4) It is simply untrue that the rehabilitation trial discussed her hair; I have the translated transcript right here on my computer. The letters "hair" in any combinations of capitalization are discussed under the introductory notes (where it's a reference to "tearing out hair"), comments by Raymond, seuir de macy (a reference to hair standing on end), and Maitre Nicolas Caval (in ref. to the fact that she had been told not to keep her hair short and did it anyways). Perhaps you are referring to a letter that was not included as part of the trial? Because I can assure you, it's not in the transcripts. Even if that *were* the case, it would still not be a justification for the specific case of having function for rape prevention which was being discussed.
5) If you want to bring up a long line by Clin, I'll bring up a long line by everyone from Leslie Feinberg to Susan Crane for the other side. Do you really want to go there? Do you really want this section to get any *bigger*? If so, we should branch it off. That would also have the advantage of bringing the article back under 32k.
6) Unwikifying gender identity? Bad form. Bad form.
7) Instead of making the Sackville-West section even longer, I'd rather it be shorter. She really only exists as a punching bag in this section anyways, and is unreferenced. I'm actually being kind to your side by leaving her in without a more modern counterresponse.
8) Stop making changes to this section without consulting the discussion page. -- Rei 20:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
It looks like Durova has already tried to explain things before, but here are some points:
Okay I'll bite. The Susan Crane from the University of Arizona specializes in German Romanticism. [1] She'd be well outside her specialty on the subject of Joan of Arc, especially since she didn't write this book. This author is a different Susan Crane, an English professor. [2] Regine Pernoud was Conservator of the Archives of France and the twentieth century's most respected biographer of Joan of Arc. [3] I'm not sure where Rei gets her information about Pernoud's education, but the degrees Rei names are peculiar to North America. Most other countries including France don't make the same distinction between undergraduate and graduate education. Leslie Feinberg's CV lists no educational degrees at all. [4] User:213.197.202.209 is right about the online version of the nullification trial being incomplete and names book authors who provide the full text.
Rei did add Vita Sackville-West to the article in the revision dated 05:01, 21 December 2005 with the edit note, "Added refs. Let me know if you think more are needed anywhere." I requested a footnote with page number. After none was forthcoming I added a "citation needed" flag on 3 January. Rei removed the flag the next day. User:81.96.185.40 removed the mention of Vita Sackville-West on 19 January and Rei reinstated it the same day. Durova 20:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
In response to Rei's comments, which Durova already responded to above: I think all that needs to be said are the following comments:
In response for this from RVC: "Was Joan of Arc a lesbian? Did she have gender identity issues? How much space do these questions merit and what standards of scholarship should the article use?"
I'd say the sexuality bit is not relevant to the historical events, and is only mere speculation. I think it is more viable, and it is argued, that she wore men’s clothes as women's clothes would not send a message of a heroic figure to the rest of the Frogs. Also, the amount of bitches that went into battle in Western Europe in the medieval era is small. Women’s war clothes aren't liable to be got easily, and when men's armour would do the same job, what would be the point.
There is also the point of her being very religious, and you've got the non bang bang before marriage thing there. Taking this into account, I think the words of a few non-notable shitty authors (Who may not be even historians) should be taken out of the article.
Roger Danger Field 16:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
The article text has 31 numbered line citations but only 24 footnotes. Normally this might result from multiple references to the same footnote. That does not explain this problem because the a, b, c multiple citation convention has only been used once. Footnote 19 has been blanked and contains no information. This leaves roughly half a dozen line citations unaccounted.
When the footnote decay problem first appeared in December another editor accused me of exploiting it as an excuse to change the article's content. That accusation was false, but it would have a grain of truth this time. If I fix these citations myself I will also edit the associated text into compliance with the policies listed above. Again I will wait an appropriate length of time for the person or persons who created the faulty citations to fix them. I will not provide feedback if repairs fail to work. That information was taken in bad faith when I provided it. Durova 12:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Note to other editors the next stage of my edits will concern gender identity and sexuality. I estimate the topic merits only one or two short paragraphs in an article this size. Any editor who disagrees is urged to supply references to historians - not professors of other fields or fiction authors, and not the editor's own original research. Durova 21:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
A link to the Project Gutenberg text of his book is already available at Joan of Arc bibliography. Please add future reference works there. Regards, Durova 16:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I replaced the link to the Hundred Years' war in the historical context section, because the only other link to it is much further down the page, in a caption (at least as far as I can see). I also changed a tiny bit of wording, since it seemed awkward. I removed the spaces around the comment because in the viewed article, it results in a big gap between the heading and the body of the text, which is awkward. Makemi 19:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Take a closer look at her biography and work at world of biography Is this worth to add as external link in the article? i would consider it for external link -- Kbi911 08:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
One of the hardest things to do is to revert an edit I agree with, and revert it because it violates NPOV. The edit that favored Richey over Perroy went beyond the bounds of Wikipedia policy. Durova 22:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it's misleading to characterise the Hundred Years' War as a battle against "English domination". As the page on the Hundred Years' War says, "it has the feeling of a French civil war as much as an international conflict".
Joan of Arc may have viewed her efforts as a liberation struggle, but the circumstances in which she fought were not created by a straightforward invasion by the outsider English and subsequent "foreign control"; they were the result of a complicated succession of manoeuvrings by various Anglo-French nobles going back to William the Conqueror, with many strong ties still existing between the English king and French territories. The people against whom she fought can't easily be separated off into "the English", at least not if that means people across the channel.
Stuarta 17:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone put a lot of work into adding Wikilinks to the article and - unfortunately - I've had to undo most of them. Date links are for major dates (think Bastille Day), not for every time a Wikipedian accesses an external website in a footnote. Internal links to other articles are necessary only the first time a name is mentioned. I've culled down the duplicate links and removed redlinks to minor trial witnesses. Wikipedia actually went through a deletion vote with Geoffroy Therage and voted to have his name redirect to Joan of Arc.
Also, one editor altered several sections with the view that the ceremony in Rheims was primarily a consecration rather than a coronation. The way to represent that within the article is by providing a reference to some scholarly authority who argues that point, not by changing citations to other sources who called it a coronation. Durova 01:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
The recent peer review commented on the article's sentence structure and another editor contributed some copyediting a few weeks ago. Now I've returned for a fresh look. Those edits were done with the best intentions by a good editor who wasn't very familiar with this subject. In some places the changes introduced syntactical problems, such as an ambiguity in the introduction as to whether Joan of Arc or the duke of Bedford was nineteen years old when she died. In other places the alterations themselves, intended by the editor's statement to increase the article's sentence complexity, have inadvertently clouded the sequence of events. I'll be reviewing these changes and making more alterations. Durova 19:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the footnote per FAC feedback although I'm not pleased with the longwinded result. Here's the difficulty: a reader who looks up any work that was written about her before the mid-nineteenth century will not find her name as "Joan of Arc," "Jeanne d'Arc," or even (usually) "Jehanne." Shakespeare calls her "Joan la Pucelle." A variety of forms exist in works that a general reader could encounter (also Voltaire and Schiller). I could digress at length about various misconceptions (such as the implication of noble origin), but I really believe that's better in a footnote than in the main body of the text. Durova 04:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
If there were just two or three ways of rendering her name then Worldtraveller's solution would be best. Without a footnote, the article is almost forced to perpetuate the misconception that the modern French version is definitive. Durova 21:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
User:Dzonatas, it is unacceptable to alter a footnote without reading the source it cites. Following are a dozen reasons why the description "modern" is appropriate:
Your accusations are spurious. Progress toward FA stalled for months over such obstructionism. You have consistently disregarded your obligation to read legitimate citations and provide opposing ones before you alter referenced material. A substantial majority of your content edits have tended toward one goal: validation of your aunt's family tree. In addition to the many objections already advanced against her original research, I refer you to this [9]. No claims of descent from Joan of Arc's family (yours or any other) are sufficiently reliable to be included in a forensic study now underway to assess the authenticity of her reputed remains. Most cases of user misconduct would have proceeded to formal action long before this. I have delayed as long as possible in the hope that it would not be necessary. In order to preserve the integrity of the article and its newly acquired featured status, there appears to be no alternative. Durova 18:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Let me see if I understand this reasoning: a featured article contains 70 footnotes to 26 unique sources. Several of the notes refer to the twentieth century's leading historian on the subject. You dislike one of those notes. Therefore the article's integrity is compromised?
Many of your statements contradict documentary evidence. Do quote the relevant passage from Chronique de la Pucelle. It must be in unedited archaic French for that spelling to have survived. There's no need to translate it into English for me. And provide the bibliographical information. This obviously isn't Quicherat: he modernized. Durova 14:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Is the Front National image at the bottom of the article sufficiently covered by fair use policy? At the end of the FAC an editor questioned it, but this was someone whose comments may have been overly strict. Here's an alternative I've kept in reserve. In order to maintain NPOV this would probably mean removing the image of the church in the saint box. It wouldn't be appropriate to use two United States images. I'd prefer the newer image because it shows her significance in current events. Durova 04:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I've added a statement to the image. Please tell me if that's adequate. The article refers to it in the last paragraph. Durova 15:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Despite this article being promoted to FA, the refernces used to write the article should be provided here. As I mentioned in the FAC there is no problem with length.-- nixie 05:09, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I don't think that her biographical column should be so far down the page within the Legacy section. I feel it would better be served to be at the top, in the introductory section, as many other articles are (like country pages). However, I don't know how to move it up there properly. Does anyone else agree?-- Oscabat 03:18, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
1) The difficulty of removal of the clothes that she wore in prison is already discussed later; no need to duplicate the same information. If you want more information about the difficulty in removing them, add it where it is discussed or delete the other mention.
2) Removal of the fact that Summa Theologica does not excuse much of Joan's behavior is simply unacceptable. Otherwise, one is left with the impression (since the theological justifications for cross-dressing *are* mentioned) that it does excuse all of her cross dressing. It does not.
3) The fact that she considered it a divine requirement to keep her male clothes is already discussed; again, no duplication, please.
4) It is simply untrue that the rehabilitation trial discussed her hair; I have the translated transcript right here on my computer. The letters "hair" in any combinations of capitalization are discussed under the introductory notes (where it's a reference to "tearing out hair"), comments by Raymond, seuir de macy (a reference to hair standing on end), and Maitre Nicolas Caval (in ref. to the fact that she had been told not to keep her hair short and did it anyways). Perhaps you are referring to a letter that was not included as part of the trial? Because I can assure you, it's not in the transcripts. Even if that *were* the case, it would still not be a justification for the specific case of having function for rape prevention which was being discussed.
5) If you want to bring up a long line by Clin, I'll bring up a long line by everyone from Leslie Feinberg to Susan Crane for the other side. Do you really want to go there? Do you really want this section to get any *bigger*? If so, we should branch it off. That would also have the advantage of bringing the article back under 32k.
6) Unwikifying gender identity? Bad form. Bad form.
7) Instead of making the Sackville-West section even longer, I'd rather it be shorter. She really only exists as a punching bag in this section anyways, and is unreferenced. I'm actually being kind to your side by leaving her in without a more modern counterresponse.
8) Stop making changes to this section without consulting the discussion page. -- Rei 20:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
It looks like Durova has already tried to explain things before, but here are some points:
Okay I'll bite. The Susan Crane from the University of Arizona specializes in German Romanticism. [1] She'd be well outside her specialty on the subject of Joan of Arc, especially since she didn't write this book. This author is a different Susan Crane, an English professor. [2] Regine Pernoud was Conservator of the Archives of France and the twentieth century's most respected biographer of Joan of Arc. [3] I'm not sure where Rei gets her information about Pernoud's education, but the degrees Rei names are peculiar to North America. Most other countries including France don't make the same distinction between undergraduate and graduate education. Leslie Feinberg's CV lists no educational degrees at all. [4] User:213.197.202.209 is right about the online version of the nullification trial being incomplete and names book authors who provide the full text.
Rei did add Vita Sackville-West to the article in the revision dated 05:01, 21 December 2005 with the edit note, "Added refs. Let me know if you think more are needed anywhere." I requested a footnote with page number. After none was forthcoming I added a "citation needed" flag on 3 January. Rei removed the flag the next day. User:81.96.185.40 removed the mention of Vita Sackville-West on 19 January and Rei reinstated it the same day. Durova 20:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
In response to Rei's comments, which Durova already responded to above: I think all that needs to be said are the following comments:
In response for this from RVC: "Was Joan of Arc a lesbian? Did she have gender identity issues? How much space do these questions merit and what standards of scholarship should the article use?"
I'd say the sexuality bit is not relevant to the historical events, and is only mere speculation. I think it is more viable, and it is argued, that she wore men’s clothes as women's clothes would not send a message of a heroic figure to the rest of the Frogs. Also, the amount of bitches that went into battle in Western Europe in the medieval era is small. Women’s war clothes aren't liable to be got easily, and when men's armour would do the same job, what would be the point.
There is also the point of her being very religious, and you've got the non bang bang before marriage thing there. Taking this into account, I think the words of a few non-notable shitty authors (Who may not be even historians) should be taken out of the article.
Roger Danger Field 16:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
The article text has 31 numbered line citations but only 24 footnotes. Normally this might result from multiple references to the same footnote. That does not explain this problem because the a, b, c multiple citation convention has only been used once. Footnote 19 has been blanked and contains no information. This leaves roughly half a dozen line citations unaccounted.
When the footnote decay problem first appeared in December another editor accused me of exploiting it as an excuse to change the article's content. That accusation was false, but it would have a grain of truth this time. If I fix these citations myself I will also edit the associated text into compliance with the policies listed above. Again I will wait an appropriate length of time for the person or persons who created the faulty citations to fix them. I will not provide feedback if repairs fail to work. That information was taken in bad faith when I provided it. Durova 12:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Note to other editors the next stage of my edits will concern gender identity and sexuality. I estimate the topic merits only one or two short paragraphs in an article this size. Any editor who disagrees is urged to supply references to historians - not professors of other fields or fiction authors, and not the editor's own original research. Durova 21:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
A link to the Project Gutenberg text of his book is already available at Joan of Arc bibliography. Please add future reference works there. Regards, Durova 16:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I replaced the link to the Hundred Years' war in the historical context section, because the only other link to it is much further down the page, in a caption (at least as far as I can see). I also changed a tiny bit of wording, since it seemed awkward. I removed the spaces around the comment because in the viewed article, it results in a big gap between the heading and the body of the text, which is awkward. Makemi 19:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Take a closer look at her biography and work at world of biography Is this worth to add as external link in the article? i would consider it for external link -- Kbi911 08:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
One of the hardest things to do is to revert an edit I agree with, and revert it because it violates NPOV. The edit that favored Richey over Perroy went beyond the bounds of Wikipedia policy. Durova 22:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it's misleading to characterise the Hundred Years' War as a battle against "English domination". As the page on the Hundred Years' War says, "it has the feeling of a French civil war as much as an international conflict".
Joan of Arc may have viewed her efforts as a liberation struggle, but the circumstances in which she fought were not created by a straightforward invasion by the outsider English and subsequent "foreign control"; they were the result of a complicated succession of manoeuvrings by various Anglo-French nobles going back to William the Conqueror, with many strong ties still existing between the English king and French territories. The people against whom she fought can't easily be separated off into "the English", at least not if that means people across the channel.
Stuarta 17:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone put a lot of work into adding Wikilinks to the article and - unfortunately - I've had to undo most of them. Date links are for major dates (think Bastille Day), not for every time a Wikipedian accesses an external website in a footnote. Internal links to other articles are necessary only the first time a name is mentioned. I've culled down the duplicate links and removed redlinks to minor trial witnesses. Wikipedia actually went through a deletion vote with Geoffroy Therage and voted to have his name redirect to Joan of Arc.
Also, one editor altered several sections with the view that the ceremony in Rheims was primarily a consecration rather than a coronation. The way to represent that within the article is by providing a reference to some scholarly authority who argues that point, not by changing citations to other sources who called it a coronation. Durova 01:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
The recent peer review commented on the article's sentence structure and another editor contributed some copyediting a few weeks ago. Now I've returned for a fresh look. Those edits were done with the best intentions by a good editor who wasn't very familiar with this subject. In some places the changes introduced syntactical problems, such as an ambiguity in the introduction as to whether Joan of Arc or the duke of Bedford was nineteen years old when she died. In other places the alterations themselves, intended by the editor's statement to increase the article's sentence complexity, have inadvertently clouded the sequence of events. I'll be reviewing these changes and making more alterations. Durova 19:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the footnote per FAC feedback although I'm not pleased with the longwinded result. Here's the difficulty: a reader who looks up any work that was written about her before the mid-nineteenth century will not find her name as "Joan of Arc," "Jeanne d'Arc," or even (usually) "Jehanne." Shakespeare calls her "Joan la Pucelle." A variety of forms exist in works that a general reader could encounter (also Voltaire and Schiller). I could digress at length about various misconceptions (such as the implication of noble origin), but I really believe that's better in a footnote than in the main body of the text. Durova 04:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
If there were just two or three ways of rendering her name then Worldtraveller's solution would be best. Without a footnote, the article is almost forced to perpetuate the misconception that the modern French version is definitive. Durova 21:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
User:Dzonatas, it is unacceptable to alter a footnote without reading the source it cites. Following are a dozen reasons why the description "modern" is appropriate:
Your accusations are spurious. Progress toward FA stalled for months over such obstructionism. You have consistently disregarded your obligation to read legitimate citations and provide opposing ones before you alter referenced material. A substantial majority of your content edits have tended toward one goal: validation of your aunt's family tree. In addition to the many objections already advanced against her original research, I refer you to this [9]. No claims of descent from Joan of Arc's family (yours or any other) are sufficiently reliable to be included in a forensic study now underway to assess the authenticity of her reputed remains. Most cases of user misconduct would have proceeded to formal action long before this. I have delayed as long as possible in the hope that it would not be necessary. In order to preserve the integrity of the article and its newly acquired featured status, there appears to be no alternative. Durova 18:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Let me see if I understand this reasoning: a featured article contains 70 footnotes to 26 unique sources. Several of the notes refer to the twentieth century's leading historian on the subject. You dislike one of those notes. Therefore the article's integrity is compromised?
Many of your statements contradict documentary evidence. Do quote the relevant passage from Chronique de la Pucelle. It must be in unedited archaic French for that spelling to have survived. There's no need to translate it into English for me. And provide the bibliographical information. This obviously isn't Quicherat: he modernized. Durova 14:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Is the Front National image at the bottom of the article sufficiently covered by fair use policy? At the end of the FAC an editor questioned it, but this was someone whose comments may have been overly strict. Here's an alternative I've kept in reserve. In order to maintain NPOV this would probably mean removing the image of the church in the saint box. It wouldn't be appropriate to use two United States images. I'd prefer the newer image because it shows her significance in current events. Durova 04:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I've added a statement to the image. Please tell me if that's adequate. The article refers to it in the last paragraph. Durova 15:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Despite this article being promoted to FA, the refernces used to write the article should be provided here. As I mentioned in the FAC there is no problem with length.-- nixie 05:09, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I don't think that her biographical column should be so far down the page within the Legacy section. I feel it would better be served to be at the top, in the introductory section, as many other articles are (like country pages). However, I don't know how to move it up there properly. Does anyone else agree?-- Oscabat 03:18, 10 March 2006 (UTC)