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I don't know how accurate this ( [1]) site is, but it gives his birth date (17 April 1933). It also gives his middle name (Richard) as well as a different birth place (Erie, Pennsylvania instead of Cleveland, Ohio) and a different graduation year (1957 instead of 1958). FWIW. 67.8.85.101 01:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I've moved the following here until proper sourcing can be found per WP:BLP:
Although the company was effectively bankrupt at this point, work on the BD-5D continued for some time. The bankruptcy became official in 1979, by which point the BD-5 project was long dead. During the bankruptcy proceedings it was learned that the money ostensibly being used to build kits was instead being spent on a variety of projects. As a result, Bede entered a consent decree with the FTC to no longer accept deposits on aircraft for a period of ten years.
-- Ronz 20:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Another:
Although the deposits were claimed to be in escrow, it appears Bede secured a line of credit against the escrow accounts, which were then seized, leaving kit builders in the lurch again.
-- Ronz 20:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
This issue shows up in several places...here, Ronz's talk page and now my talk page. I'm going to respond to Ronz's note on my talk page here, so that the discussion can be centralized. Basically, it comes down to this: I believe, and it appears that others believe as well, that you're taking BLP to an extreme. BLP is intended to prevent personal information that is unsourced and libelous from being added to articles. That is very different from adding information about public business dealings and improprieties that are committed by people and which are subject to court and governmental actions. Bede's actions and the problems with his BKs and the financial harm caused to others is public news and public information, and is not libelous in nature. The fact that the FTC had to take action against this company makes this a matter of public record, and is not therefore subject to the BLP restrictions that you are attempting to impose. Also the fact that two admins spoke up about this should cause you to consider that maybe you're not seeing the entire picture. I take issue with your assertion on my talk page that you only reverted twice in 24 hours. Not so, and I hope it's just an oversight on your part, not an attempt to deceive. You reverted here at 20:56 on 10/10, hre at 15:10 on 10/11, and here at 19:49. Those are three reverts within 24 hours. While I appreciate your zeal to keep Wikipedia's articles of the highest quality, you need to be open to considering that you're over reaching. AKRadecki Speaketh 00:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
The reference says
But the article says
There seems to be a hint of OR going on here (ie/ the redflag "As a result"). Sure this may all be true, but there are no sources to date and seemingly little interest of RS being provided? Simply put, the current reference does not support the article as it stands. This falls into "unsourced" section of WP:BLP or at best, poorly sourced. I will however wait for additional sources to be added - hence my citition tags, unfortunately it seems every second sentence needs a cite it appears :-(. Shot info 01:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Again I have to express my confusion. What exactly do you mean by "half supported". There are many statements in that paragraph, and I'm having trouble figuring out which ones in particular you have a problem with. Please be specific so we can fix them. I'm not sure about the rest of the post though... are you unhappy with the court roll that FlyBD5 provided for some reason? All US bankruptcy proceedings are in the public domain, but sadly only a small number are online. But having talked to people who have read them, I am assured they say what it is claimed here. FlyBD5 may have a physical copy -- is this true FlyBD5? Maury 21:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
While I think that much of this could be referenced, I think it's time to start trimming back sections that potentially contentious per NPOV. -- Ronz 15:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, I agree that there should be mention of the various aircraft Bede was involved with here in his BLP, however there is a lot of dublication now between them and their actual articles. Normally, well at least in other BLPs I have edited in, the section is pruned back to a sentence or two, or even just back to a link to his aircraft. After all, this is a biography about Jim Bede not about his aircraft. Thoughts? Shot info 23:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The articles in question include:
Did I miss any? -- Ronz 04:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the policy police have arrived in force. Combatting edits have now made the content disagree with the refs, broken other refs, removed content that was directly stated in the references, and all without a single word here in the talk page even though I asked twice for additional specific examples. Thanks for your "help" everyone, the article is yours to clip as you see fit. Maury 15:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Is the context of the recent revert [3] is this "aa1" > [4]? Shot info 23:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
(undent) My silence implies concent? Uhhh, maybe it implies I'm on a business trip several thousand miles from my home and this is the first lengthy internet session I've had in several days? Whatever dude, edit as you see fit. Maury 19:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
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I don't know how accurate this ( [1]) site is, but it gives his birth date (17 April 1933). It also gives his middle name (Richard) as well as a different birth place (Erie, Pennsylvania instead of Cleveland, Ohio) and a different graduation year (1957 instead of 1958). FWIW. 67.8.85.101 01:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I've moved the following here until proper sourcing can be found per WP:BLP:
Although the company was effectively bankrupt at this point, work on the BD-5D continued for some time. The bankruptcy became official in 1979, by which point the BD-5 project was long dead. During the bankruptcy proceedings it was learned that the money ostensibly being used to build kits was instead being spent on a variety of projects. As a result, Bede entered a consent decree with the FTC to no longer accept deposits on aircraft for a period of ten years.
-- Ronz 20:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Another:
Although the deposits were claimed to be in escrow, it appears Bede secured a line of credit against the escrow accounts, which were then seized, leaving kit builders in the lurch again.
-- Ronz 20:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
This issue shows up in several places...here, Ronz's talk page and now my talk page. I'm going to respond to Ronz's note on my talk page here, so that the discussion can be centralized. Basically, it comes down to this: I believe, and it appears that others believe as well, that you're taking BLP to an extreme. BLP is intended to prevent personal information that is unsourced and libelous from being added to articles. That is very different from adding information about public business dealings and improprieties that are committed by people and which are subject to court and governmental actions. Bede's actions and the problems with his BKs and the financial harm caused to others is public news and public information, and is not libelous in nature. The fact that the FTC had to take action against this company makes this a matter of public record, and is not therefore subject to the BLP restrictions that you are attempting to impose. Also the fact that two admins spoke up about this should cause you to consider that maybe you're not seeing the entire picture. I take issue with your assertion on my talk page that you only reverted twice in 24 hours. Not so, and I hope it's just an oversight on your part, not an attempt to deceive. You reverted here at 20:56 on 10/10, hre at 15:10 on 10/11, and here at 19:49. Those are three reverts within 24 hours. While I appreciate your zeal to keep Wikipedia's articles of the highest quality, you need to be open to considering that you're over reaching. AKRadecki Speaketh 00:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
The reference says
But the article says
There seems to be a hint of OR going on here (ie/ the redflag "As a result"). Sure this may all be true, but there are no sources to date and seemingly little interest of RS being provided? Simply put, the current reference does not support the article as it stands. This falls into "unsourced" section of WP:BLP or at best, poorly sourced. I will however wait for additional sources to be added - hence my citition tags, unfortunately it seems every second sentence needs a cite it appears :-(. Shot info 01:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Again I have to express my confusion. What exactly do you mean by "half supported". There are many statements in that paragraph, and I'm having trouble figuring out which ones in particular you have a problem with. Please be specific so we can fix them. I'm not sure about the rest of the post though... are you unhappy with the court roll that FlyBD5 provided for some reason? All US bankruptcy proceedings are in the public domain, but sadly only a small number are online. But having talked to people who have read them, I am assured they say what it is claimed here. FlyBD5 may have a physical copy -- is this true FlyBD5? Maury 21:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
While I think that much of this could be referenced, I think it's time to start trimming back sections that potentially contentious per NPOV. -- Ronz 15:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, I agree that there should be mention of the various aircraft Bede was involved with here in his BLP, however there is a lot of dublication now between them and their actual articles. Normally, well at least in other BLPs I have edited in, the section is pruned back to a sentence or two, or even just back to a link to his aircraft. After all, this is a biography about Jim Bede not about his aircraft. Thoughts? Shot info 23:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The articles in question include:
Did I miss any? -- Ronz 04:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the policy police have arrived in force. Combatting edits have now made the content disagree with the refs, broken other refs, removed content that was directly stated in the references, and all without a single word here in the talk page even though I asked twice for additional specific examples. Thanks for your "help" everyone, the article is yours to clip as you see fit. Maury 15:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Is the context of the recent revert [3] is this "aa1" > [4]? Shot info 23:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
(undent) My silence implies concent? Uhhh, maybe it implies I'm on a business trip several thousand miles from my home and this is the first lengthy internet session I've had in several days? Whatever dude, edit as you see fit. Maury 19:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
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