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The article says Ji Lu Mandarin and Beijing Mandarin are very different. As a native speaker of Beijing Mandarin, I must say this is absolutely untrue. The classification of Ji Lu Mandarin which includes Tianjin, Baoding-Tangshan and other northern part of Hebei was a political one, not a lingustic one. It was first drafted in late 1970's and early 1980's, and the main reasons was Beijing and the 3 North-eastern provinces are separate olitical units. This classification of Ji Lu Mandarin has a fundamental fault: In the lingual line of that runs from Baoding to Tianjin, the words that belonged to Qing-Fraction of the Inner Tone in Pre-Qin Classical Chinese have shfited to all four modern tones. This is the same as in Beijing Mandarin and Northeastern Mandarin. In China modern linguists do not follow this anymore.
Karolus 2009/12/14 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.102.77.228 ( talk) 19:07, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved per consensus, and consistent with Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Hyphens. R'n'B ( call me Russ) 13:32, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Ji–Lu Mandarin →
Jilu Mandarin — There was no justification given for the move to the dash form, and I say absolutely not to the dash. The dash would be appropriate if the dialect group were actually called by its full name, "Hebei—Shandong". For one, Oxford, which appears to be the basis for WP:ENDASH, gives no mention as to special abbreviations derived from foreign languages, as occurs in this case. There is a parallel at
Jingshi Expressway (Beijing—Shijiazhuang), among others; a search for "Jing–shi Expressway" on Google leads to "did you mean: Jingshi Expressway?".
Secondly, under pinyin rules, these would be "combined meanings". Since we have chosen to maintain the abbreviated name, apart from tone marks, we need to follow spacing rules. See, for example, Xiàndài Hànyǔ Chángyòng Zìbiǎo.
Lastly, the dash suggests some sort of a terminus, much in the manner of "Beijing—Shijiazhuang", when such a terminus does not exist... Indeed this map makes it clear that speakers of this group extend beyond those two provinces alone. HXL's Roundtable and Record 06:11, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 05:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
– A move request was closed, but an admin who had participated in the discussion then reverted the move without any explanation (see discussion of admin actions). The admin was then desyoped for making other undiscussed moves against the result of move requests, see arbcom case. Please move also Jiao–Liao Mandarin → Jiaoliao Mandarin, and Lan–Yin Mandarin → Lanyin Mandarin. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 12:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC) Enric Naval ( talk) 12:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved. This should not be moved again without a full RM; thanks to SlimVirgin, it probably won't be. -- BDD ( talk) 23:17, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
– Restore previous RM results, in line with English print sources, yet again. In ictu oculi ( talk) 16:36, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Following a request on RfPP, I've protected the page against further moves, except for uninvolved admins closing RMs, including Anthony. I protected on the version that I found it; that should be reverted if appropriate. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:06, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
how can u have an article like this -- and spend months arguing about the DASH between the pinyin for the characters -- without even ONCE stating the characters!!!!
they should be given with the very FIRST mention of the term, as well as for all of the related/further listed dialects. a bunch of them finally do down bottom, but not all, and not UP TOP, where it counts! 66.30.47.138 ( talk) 17:01, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
The article says Ji Lu Mandarin and Beijing Mandarin are very different. As a native speaker of Beijing Mandarin, I must say this is absolutely untrue. The classification of Ji Lu Mandarin which includes Tianjin, Baoding-Tangshan and other northern part of Hebei was a political one, not a lingustic one. It was first drafted in late 1970's and early 1980's, and the main reasons was Beijing and the 3 North-eastern provinces are separate olitical units. This classification of Ji Lu Mandarin has a fundamental fault: In the lingual line of that runs from Baoding to Tianjin, the words that belonged to Qing-Fraction of the Inner Tone in Pre-Qin Classical Chinese have shfited to all four modern tones. This is the same as in Beijing Mandarin and Northeastern Mandarin. In China modern linguists do not follow this anymore.
Karolus 2009/12/14 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.102.77.228 ( talk) 19:07, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved per consensus, and consistent with Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Hyphens. R'n'B ( call me Russ) 13:32, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Ji–Lu Mandarin →
Jilu Mandarin — There was no justification given for the move to the dash form, and I say absolutely not to the dash. The dash would be appropriate if the dialect group were actually called by its full name, "Hebei—Shandong". For one, Oxford, which appears to be the basis for WP:ENDASH, gives no mention as to special abbreviations derived from foreign languages, as occurs in this case. There is a parallel at
Jingshi Expressway (Beijing—Shijiazhuang), among others; a search for "Jing–shi Expressway" on Google leads to "did you mean: Jingshi Expressway?".
Secondly, under pinyin rules, these would be "combined meanings". Since we have chosen to maintain the abbreviated name, apart from tone marks, we need to follow spacing rules. See, for example, Xiàndài Hànyǔ Chángyòng Zìbiǎo.
Lastly, the dash suggests some sort of a terminus, much in the manner of "Beijing—Shijiazhuang", when such a terminus does not exist... Indeed this map makes it clear that speakers of this group extend beyond those two provinces alone. HXL's Roundtable and Record 06:11, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 05:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
– A move request was closed, but an admin who had participated in the discussion then reverted the move without any explanation (see discussion of admin actions). The admin was then desyoped for making other undiscussed moves against the result of move requests, see arbcom case. Please move also Jiao–Liao Mandarin → Jiaoliao Mandarin, and Lan–Yin Mandarin → Lanyin Mandarin. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 12:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC) Enric Naval ( talk) 12:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved. This should not be moved again without a full RM; thanks to SlimVirgin, it probably won't be. -- BDD ( talk) 23:17, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
– Restore previous RM results, in line with English print sources, yet again. In ictu oculi ( talk) 16:36, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Following a request on RfPP, I've protected the page against further moves, except for uninvolved admins closing RMs, including Anthony. I protected on the version that I found it; that should be reverted if appropriate. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:06, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
how can u have an article like this -- and spend months arguing about the DASH between the pinyin for the characters -- without even ONCE stating the characters!!!!
they should be given with the very FIRST mention of the term, as well as for all of the related/further listed dialects. a bunch of them finally do down bottom, but not all, and not UP TOP, where it counts! 66.30.47.138 ( talk) 17:01, 23 August 2021 (UTC)