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(cur) (last) 10:05, 12 December 2007 203.135.34.190 (Talk) (10,260 bytes) (Your edit doesn't make sense. It IS neutral. You even pulled out a hadith from the same book as the original, which is more relevant to the word Jilbab. Explain or I will report you if you do it again) (undo) (cur) (last) 04:26, 11 December 2007 Grenavitar (Talk | contribs) (7,317 bytes) (rv -- not the place to use non-neutral language and partisan discussion about translations...) (undo)
Someone stop him from doing it again.
Yusuf Ali's translation has its own page which you can simply link to. The one I quoted a translation from, does not. Maybe other people feel any information is valid as long as you cite something, anything, but I believe the work being cited should have some explanation so people don't simply make up sources. So I had to give background on the translation from which I was quoting, and showing why it deserves mention and priority over Yusuf Ali's. Because it's a translation following hundreds of years of commentaries on the Qur'an whereas Yusuf Ali's is a new one in the last century and Yusuf Ali is not related in any way to traditional Islamic scholarship. Not only do those commentaries and that translation represent the traditional Sunni view, the majority of Sunnis in the world (this is common knowledge, ask a professor in a University if you don't know anything about the subject, don't be shy) follow the traditional Sunni path, which is to say, they are Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i or Hanbali sub-sects of Sunnis. That translation and those commentaries represent those people, which make up over 90% of Muslims in the world today. These are all facts. I am not sure if Grenavitar is familiar with that term.
If someone would be so kind as to make a page for "Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble Qur'an in the English Language by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan and Dr. Muhammad Taqiuddin Al-Hilali" and include that paragraph (using more neutral words than "reknown" or "prominent" if you can find any in the English language), I would be grateful. Than you can simply have the name of the translation link to the book's page and then leave the quote in.
There is also no reason whatsoever to remove the added quote from Sahih Bukhari and leave the old one. In fact, the new one explains the meaning of the verse in question, and the word jilbab whereas the one that Grenavitar left on the page doesn't do anything except mention jilbab in passing.
Old quote:
Narrated Umm Atiyya: We were ordered to bring out our menstruating women and screened women to the religious gatherings and invocation of the Muslims on the two Eid festivals. These menstruating women were to keep away from the musalla. A woman asked, "O Messenger of Allah! What about one who does not have a jilbab?". He said, "Let her borrow the jilbab of her companion". (Sahih Bukhari, Book 8, #347)
Added quote:
Narrated Safiyah bint Shaibah: 'Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their jalabib over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number #282)
From the same book, website, etc. as the first one. Now, reading both of them, it becomes clear one is more relevant than the other. Guess which one it is? Yep, the new one. Now who in their right mind would remove it? Besides Grenavitar that is?
I think this user has an agenda and should at least be warned.
Every original translation, as well as all the Hadiths that form the basis for all schools of law within Islam, both Sunni and Shi'a (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali, and Shi'a's Jafari) which cite the Caliphs and Companions of Muhammad as all stating explicitly that Jilbab covers the outer garments, including the face, leaving the eyes open. I will edit the article and cite the sources for these schools which form the Islamic law/ruling (which cannot be changed by scholars who come after them, and this has been endorsed by the majority of sunni and shi'ite scholars... those who start to change the meanings or interpretations on issues like this, while still good sources for 'Islamic' thought, do not represent Sunnis or Shi'as which together make the overwhelming majority of all Muslims today and thus should be represented).
The Muslim Brotherhood for example, which are cited heavily here, are not Sunni scholars. They're a spin-off school of thought whose foundations are outside of all Sunni schools of law but they loosely adhere and pay lip-service to the four Imams. They cannot be said to represent the beliefs of Sunnis.
As for the sarcastic comments below, this article is targeted towards a secular audience. It's neither for Muslims specifically, nor by Muslims specifically. Whatever standards are used for Encyclopedias of this sort, and Wikipedia especially, should be followed obviously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.163.98.140 ( talk) 14:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I found this page by hitting random edit and I just think that it's funny how this article has a picture of a muslim woman which some muslims think is forbidden in of itself. I think the correct course of action is for a non-commerical photograph of a muslim man crossdresser wearing the jiljab just so that we can be culturally sensitive :)
-- MouringReign 00:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
To most jilbāb is that garment linked to in the pictures (maybe not even the third one). However, there is a group (mostly of liberals) who don't take jilbāb (jalabib- as used in the Qur'an at least) to be what the modern idea of jilbāb is. That is to say, there are claims that jalabib is referring to a type of outergarment which is modest but is more of a concept, not necessarily what we think of it as today. Has anyone else read something about this? I don't think I explained it well so help would be appreciated.
Also, some say verse 59 is for when women are afraid of being molested. Can someone reference a source to that? I don't remember any credible ones off hand. gren グレン 05:46, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
The article was illustrated with pictures from a company that sells jilbabs. I removed those pictures. I hope other editors can supply some public domain or open licence pictures. Zora 01:28, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The picture showing the Medina Quarter needs to be replaced. For a picture that is suppose to show a Jilbab, it is a great picture of the local architecture.[User: retrograde62]December 16 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.170.10.51 ( talk) 08:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
I had a few questions. Firstly, I tried in my version to define jilbab as a garment outside of which religion wears it. I think it's only a small difference but it should be represented as it is the garment and that it is worn by Muslim women. Not that it is the garment worn by Muslim women. Since, is it a style only worn by Muslims? Predominantly, of course. Also, should any debate about whether or not jilbab is necessary go on the hijab page do you think? Or should there be discussion of it here--since you removed the little bit of discussion I had about it on the page. Thanks. gren グレン ? 20:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I do not recall having run across the term "jilbab" in any discussion of hijab/Middle Eastern costume history BEFORE the modern period. I have the strong impression that the jilbab, as you see it worn by Islamist Muslimas, is a modern innovation masquerading as an ancient garment. I will have to do some research to establish this, however. Need a word frequency analysis or some such.
So you have the problem of what the term meant in the 7th century, and also of surveying the current styles in jilbab.
Let's see -- consulting Veil: Modesty, Privacy, and Resistance, Fadwa El Guindi, Berg, 1999.
...
(pages 143-144) You probably have the book at your university library. It's not a great book, but it's the only one I've manage to read so far. Sheesh, I'm so far BEHIND in my reading.
El Guindi seems to be suggesting that the "jilbab" is a 1970s Islamist/Muslim Brotherhood phenomenon. Hope this helps. Zora 21:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the modern jilbab had its origins in Istanbul in the early 20th century. According to Ruth Roded, a social historian at the Hebrew University of Israel:
GCarty 12:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
That sounds kinda doubtful to me. From what I've seen of jilbabs, the cut isn't European, it's Egyptian, and based on the Egyptian galabia. I'm familiar with galabia, because I sew them for myself :) Do you have a cite for the Roded quote? Zora 12:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I was clicking fast and accidentally labeled a revert as "minor". Sorry.
Anon, this article is not the place to lobby for your views on hijab, or to assert that all Muslims share them. I did, however, remove the sentence re controversy that you removed, since I think that the preceding sentences do indicate that there is controversy. Zora 23:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Having looked at the reference -- it's polemic and expresses a marginal view. All by itself, it's a bad reference. I need to add material from El Guindi and cite her book. Zora 10:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Good job, as usual. Just two things. I moved the link back into references. Feel free to get rid of or re-reference anything from my original work. If you can do that (or it's common knowledge) then feel free to remove the link. But as of now it's still technically a reference. Picky? yes, but it's correct. Secondly, I added your "jalabib" in braces since it wasn't part of the Yusuf Ali quote. I just thought of this now, but if you want you can remove outer garments and put jalabib in brackets replacing it. That's perfectly proper, but since the quote has been modified it needs to be known. I see you decided to keep the hadith reference.
Anonymous. Can you cite the English source for that hadith. We need to know the translator of it to reference it (at least by name). gren グレン ? 03:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
The Quran passage is translated in part as
Is the insert "(when abroad)" in the original or was that added by the translator? AxelBoldt 22:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This article places undue weight WP:undue weight to Guindi's theory, and ignores classical references to Jilbab throughout the history of Islam, and it's description in ancient Arabic dictionaries. e.g. al-Lisan al-Arab . I will provide in time. Sentences like "it was not known before the 70's egypt" are absurd! all of the following are types of Jilbab in their local variations: Abaya, Kaftan, chador, Djellaba, Jellabiya, dishdasha, burqa. Many of the words Guidni lists are actually not in reference to Jilbabs, but also refer to the various forms of Khimar i.e. Yashmak. The Quran mentions explicitly only two garments for women Jilbab and Khimar, not hijab, or all the others, they are just coined words, or terms for variations of the two forms in the quran. Aaliyah Stevens 16:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know why Indonesians use jilbab instead of hijab? Is it a local variation or does it have something to do with Indonesian history? I am currently there and very few people understand what I mean if I say hijab. Thanks in advance. Crisco 1492 02:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence of the article states that jilbāb "is the plural of the word jilaabah," whereas the following "Qur'an and Hadith" section begins, "The plural of jilbāb, jalabib, is...." While I realize that there are important distinctions between qur'anic and other varieties of the Arabic language that may come into play here, the reasons for this seeming contradiction should either be briefly explicated here, or otherwise the correct word(s) should be used consistently throughout the article. Sadly, I don't know enough of the language to contribute more than this call-out. Anyone care to clear this up? / Ninly ( talk) 17:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
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(cur) (last) 10:05, 12 December 2007 203.135.34.190 (Talk) (10,260 bytes) (Your edit doesn't make sense. It IS neutral. You even pulled out a hadith from the same book as the original, which is more relevant to the word Jilbab. Explain or I will report you if you do it again) (undo) (cur) (last) 04:26, 11 December 2007 Grenavitar (Talk | contribs) (7,317 bytes) (rv -- not the place to use non-neutral language and partisan discussion about translations...) (undo)
Someone stop him from doing it again.
Yusuf Ali's translation has its own page which you can simply link to. The one I quoted a translation from, does not. Maybe other people feel any information is valid as long as you cite something, anything, but I believe the work being cited should have some explanation so people don't simply make up sources. So I had to give background on the translation from which I was quoting, and showing why it deserves mention and priority over Yusuf Ali's. Because it's a translation following hundreds of years of commentaries on the Qur'an whereas Yusuf Ali's is a new one in the last century and Yusuf Ali is not related in any way to traditional Islamic scholarship. Not only do those commentaries and that translation represent the traditional Sunni view, the majority of Sunnis in the world (this is common knowledge, ask a professor in a University if you don't know anything about the subject, don't be shy) follow the traditional Sunni path, which is to say, they are Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i or Hanbali sub-sects of Sunnis. That translation and those commentaries represent those people, which make up over 90% of Muslims in the world today. These are all facts. I am not sure if Grenavitar is familiar with that term.
If someone would be so kind as to make a page for "Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble Qur'an in the English Language by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan and Dr. Muhammad Taqiuddin Al-Hilali" and include that paragraph (using more neutral words than "reknown" or "prominent" if you can find any in the English language), I would be grateful. Than you can simply have the name of the translation link to the book's page and then leave the quote in.
There is also no reason whatsoever to remove the added quote from Sahih Bukhari and leave the old one. In fact, the new one explains the meaning of the verse in question, and the word jilbab whereas the one that Grenavitar left on the page doesn't do anything except mention jilbab in passing.
Old quote:
Narrated Umm Atiyya: We were ordered to bring out our menstruating women and screened women to the religious gatherings and invocation of the Muslims on the two Eid festivals. These menstruating women were to keep away from the musalla. A woman asked, "O Messenger of Allah! What about one who does not have a jilbab?". He said, "Let her borrow the jilbab of her companion". (Sahih Bukhari, Book 8, #347)
Added quote:
Narrated Safiyah bint Shaibah: 'Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their jalabib over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number #282)
From the same book, website, etc. as the first one. Now, reading both of them, it becomes clear one is more relevant than the other. Guess which one it is? Yep, the new one. Now who in their right mind would remove it? Besides Grenavitar that is?
I think this user has an agenda and should at least be warned.
Every original translation, as well as all the Hadiths that form the basis for all schools of law within Islam, both Sunni and Shi'a (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali, and Shi'a's Jafari) which cite the Caliphs and Companions of Muhammad as all stating explicitly that Jilbab covers the outer garments, including the face, leaving the eyes open. I will edit the article and cite the sources for these schools which form the Islamic law/ruling (which cannot be changed by scholars who come after them, and this has been endorsed by the majority of sunni and shi'ite scholars... those who start to change the meanings or interpretations on issues like this, while still good sources for 'Islamic' thought, do not represent Sunnis or Shi'as which together make the overwhelming majority of all Muslims today and thus should be represented).
The Muslim Brotherhood for example, which are cited heavily here, are not Sunni scholars. They're a spin-off school of thought whose foundations are outside of all Sunni schools of law but they loosely adhere and pay lip-service to the four Imams. They cannot be said to represent the beliefs of Sunnis.
As for the sarcastic comments below, this article is targeted towards a secular audience. It's neither for Muslims specifically, nor by Muslims specifically. Whatever standards are used for Encyclopedias of this sort, and Wikipedia especially, should be followed obviously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.163.98.140 ( talk) 14:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I found this page by hitting random edit and I just think that it's funny how this article has a picture of a muslim woman which some muslims think is forbidden in of itself. I think the correct course of action is for a non-commerical photograph of a muslim man crossdresser wearing the jiljab just so that we can be culturally sensitive :)
-- MouringReign 00:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
To most jilbāb is that garment linked to in the pictures (maybe not even the third one). However, there is a group (mostly of liberals) who don't take jilbāb (jalabib- as used in the Qur'an at least) to be what the modern idea of jilbāb is. That is to say, there are claims that jalabib is referring to a type of outergarment which is modest but is more of a concept, not necessarily what we think of it as today. Has anyone else read something about this? I don't think I explained it well so help would be appreciated.
Also, some say verse 59 is for when women are afraid of being molested. Can someone reference a source to that? I don't remember any credible ones off hand. gren グレン 05:46, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
The article was illustrated with pictures from a company that sells jilbabs. I removed those pictures. I hope other editors can supply some public domain or open licence pictures. Zora 01:28, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The picture showing the Medina Quarter needs to be replaced. For a picture that is suppose to show a Jilbab, it is a great picture of the local architecture.[User: retrograde62]December 16 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.170.10.51 ( talk) 08:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
I had a few questions. Firstly, I tried in my version to define jilbab as a garment outside of which religion wears it. I think it's only a small difference but it should be represented as it is the garment and that it is worn by Muslim women. Not that it is the garment worn by Muslim women. Since, is it a style only worn by Muslims? Predominantly, of course. Also, should any debate about whether or not jilbab is necessary go on the hijab page do you think? Or should there be discussion of it here--since you removed the little bit of discussion I had about it on the page. Thanks. gren グレン ? 20:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I do not recall having run across the term "jilbab" in any discussion of hijab/Middle Eastern costume history BEFORE the modern period. I have the strong impression that the jilbab, as you see it worn by Islamist Muslimas, is a modern innovation masquerading as an ancient garment. I will have to do some research to establish this, however. Need a word frequency analysis or some such.
So you have the problem of what the term meant in the 7th century, and also of surveying the current styles in jilbab.
Let's see -- consulting Veil: Modesty, Privacy, and Resistance, Fadwa El Guindi, Berg, 1999.
...
(pages 143-144) You probably have the book at your university library. It's not a great book, but it's the only one I've manage to read so far. Sheesh, I'm so far BEHIND in my reading.
El Guindi seems to be suggesting that the "jilbab" is a 1970s Islamist/Muslim Brotherhood phenomenon. Hope this helps. Zora 21:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the modern jilbab had its origins in Istanbul in the early 20th century. According to Ruth Roded, a social historian at the Hebrew University of Israel:
GCarty 12:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
That sounds kinda doubtful to me. From what I've seen of jilbabs, the cut isn't European, it's Egyptian, and based on the Egyptian galabia. I'm familiar with galabia, because I sew them for myself :) Do you have a cite for the Roded quote? Zora 12:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I was clicking fast and accidentally labeled a revert as "minor". Sorry.
Anon, this article is not the place to lobby for your views on hijab, or to assert that all Muslims share them. I did, however, remove the sentence re controversy that you removed, since I think that the preceding sentences do indicate that there is controversy. Zora 23:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Having looked at the reference -- it's polemic and expresses a marginal view. All by itself, it's a bad reference. I need to add material from El Guindi and cite her book. Zora 10:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Good job, as usual. Just two things. I moved the link back into references. Feel free to get rid of or re-reference anything from my original work. If you can do that (or it's common knowledge) then feel free to remove the link. But as of now it's still technically a reference. Picky? yes, but it's correct. Secondly, I added your "jalabib" in braces since it wasn't part of the Yusuf Ali quote. I just thought of this now, but if you want you can remove outer garments and put jalabib in brackets replacing it. That's perfectly proper, but since the quote has been modified it needs to be known. I see you decided to keep the hadith reference.
Anonymous. Can you cite the English source for that hadith. We need to know the translator of it to reference it (at least by name). gren グレン ? 03:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
The Quran passage is translated in part as
Is the insert "(when abroad)" in the original or was that added by the translator? AxelBoldt 22:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This article places undue weight WP:undue weight to Guindi's theory, and ignores classical references to Jilbab throughout the history of Islam, and it's description in ancient Arabic dictionaries. e.g. al-Lisan al-Arab . I will provide in time. Sentences like "it was not known before the 70's egypt" are absurd! all of the following are types of Jilbab in their local variations: Abaya, Kaftan, chador, Djellaba, Jellabiya, dishdasha, burqa. Many of the words Guidni lists are actually not in reference to Jilbabs, but also refer to the various forms of Khimar i.e. Yashmak. The Quran mentions explicitly only two garments for women Jilbab and Khimar, not hijab, or all the others, they are just coined words, or terms for variations of the two forms in the quran. Aaliyah Stevens 16:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know why Indonesians use jilbab instead of hijab? Is it a local variation or does it have something to do with Indonesian history? I am currently there and very few people understand what I mean if I say hijab. Thanks in advance. Crisco 1492 02:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence of the article states that jilbāb "is the plural of the word jilaabah," whereas the following "Qur'an and Hadith" section begins, "The plural of jilbāb, jalabib, is...." While I realize that there are important distinctions between qur'anic and other varieties of the Arabic language that may come into play here, the reasons for this seeming contradiction should either be briefly explicated here, or otherwise the correct word(s) should be used consistently throughout the article. Sadly, I don't know enough of the language to contribute more than this call-out. Anyone care to clear this up? / Ninly ( talk) 17:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)