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Addressed:Information about Dangić being a member of Young Bosnia, about him being arrested following Gavrilo Princip's assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, about his father's imprisonment and death are added to the article
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There are some sources which claim that Dangic was arrested by Austrians after the Sarajevo assassination in 1914 and sentenced to several years of prison as member of Yugoslavist movement Young Bosnia. If that is true it should be presented in the article, both in its text and its lede, together with clarification about the ideology of Young Bosnia.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:11, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
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Addressed:Assertion about Colakovic's visit removed because of lack of reliable source which supports it. Busic was determined as unreliable.
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What is the meaning/context/relevance of that sentence? -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
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According to the below source:
Наша мајка Невена Дангић, рође- на Јовановић, удова почившег Језди- мира Дангића,[Our mother Nevena Dangić, born Jovanović, widow of late Jezdimir Dangić]
Dangic had a wife (Nevena) and children.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 07:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC) He had brother Vojin, who also was chetnik:
Јездимир Дангић покушао да искупи бар један батаљон четника и да нападне Нову Касабу и Милиће. С тим задатком кренуо је ње- гов брат, Војин Дангић, из Братунца-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC) [Jezdimir Dangić attempted to gather at least a battalion of Chetniks to attack New Kasaba and Milići. With the same task his brother, Vojin Dangić, came from Bratunac]
The members of the joint command were Major Jezdimir Dangic, Captain Sergije Mihailovic and Pero Dukanovic on the Chetnik side, and Rodoljub Colakovic, Slobodan Princip and Svetozar Vukmanovic on the Partisan side.
У Оперативни штаб ушли су од стране партизана: Светозар Вук- мановић-Темпо, Родољуб Чолаковић и Слободан Принцип-Сељо, а од стране четника: Јездимкр Дангић, капетан Сергије Михајловић и Перо Ђукановић-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[The Operational Headquarter was composed of following Partisans: Svetozar Vukmanović Tempo, Rodoljub Čolaković and Slobodan Princip-Seljo, and from Chetnik side: Jezdimir Dangić, captain Sergije Mihajlović and Pero Đukanović]
Мол- ба Дангићеве жене маршалу Титу за по- миловање била је одбијена.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[The plead of Dangićs wife to marshal Tito was rejected]
I am placing this in its own section, as I believe it has become necessary to reinforce what WP policy expects from editors on talk pages in respect of bringing non-English sources. These policies have apparently been lost sight of in a rush to produce dozens of "possible" sources for various things about the subject of this article. Quotes in languages other than English should always be accompanied by a translation into English, per WP:NONENG. When producing quotes from sources that are not in English, in order to meet the requirements of WP:V, it is necessary for editors to provide greater context than just a sentence pulled out of a source. I would appreciate it if all editors on this talk page would comply with WP:NONENG in future when producing sources. I personally will not be addressing any comments that include non-English text unless they include a full translation (not a summation of the content). It is also very important that editors producing non-English sources on talk pages (assuming they are bringing them because they consider they may be WP:RELIABLE) that information is provided about the author and publisher. Otherwise, the editor producing the source could be giving the impression that they expect other editors to do their work for them in showing that the source(s) are reliable (or not). Of course, there would be little point bringing clearly unreliable sources to a talk page (especially self-published ones), and some editors might consider that repeatedly doing so is disruptive. Regards, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 09:29, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
There are sources that Dangić took Foča from Axis forces (and according to some of them persecuted its Muslim population).
Четнички командант заузео је Фочу у децембру 1941[Chetnik commander took Foca in December 1941]
Tako su četnici još istoga dana ušli u Goražde, a 5. prosinca 1941. u Foču, u kojoj su ostali do 20. siječnja 1942[So Chetniks entered Gorazde on the same daz and on 5. December into Foca where they stayed until 20 January 1942]
У градовима: Фочи, Горажду, Чајничу, као и у" околним селима завладао је дивљи терор. Четничке руље под воћством разних Дангића, Михаило- вића, Ђекића, Тодоровића и других издајника[In cities: Foca, Gorazde, Cajnice as well as in the surrounding villages was wild terror. Chetnik hordes under command of Dangic, Mihailovic, Djekic, Todorovic and other threators....]
Foča is not even mentioned in the article. Any thoughts?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
...Братунац „славио побједу". Дангић је успио да се натури за команданта тамошњих снага, које су првих дана устанка биле окулљене око Пере Ђукановића[... Bratunac celebrated a victory. Dangic managed to impose himself as commander of the forces that initially during first days of rebellion were gathered around Pera Djukanovic]
Дангић и Ботић су у Братунцу, гдје се налази четничка команда позадине. Ријешили смо да одмах ноћас нападнемо Власеницу, па тек онда да кренемо на Братунац. Ако бисмо одмах пошли на Братунац, Дангић ће побјећи[Dangic and Botic are in Bratunac where Chetnik headquarter for supplies was. We decided to attack Vlasenica immediately, and only then to go to Bratunac. Otherwise, if we would attack Bratunac now, Dangic will escape...]
...када се устанак на Романи]и разбуктао, непри]ател> ]е поново напустио Власеницу, у ко]у су ушли четници Дангића и Аћима). [... when rebellion on Romanija spread, the enemy retreated from Vlasenica that was entered by Chetniks of Dangic and Acim]
Toga dana pala je u naše ruke Vlasenica, sjedište zapovjednika Dangića,). Is it true? Work of Dedijer/Miletić clarify that in Vlasenica Chetniks established 'Government of Eastern Bosnia' which president was Aćim Babić while Dangić was commander of all military units (Vladimir Dedijer; Antun Miletić (1990). Genocid nad Muslimanima, 1941-1945. Svjetlost. p. 87. Retrieved 30 September 2013.
Prilikom njihovog rada u Vlasenici, Aćim Babić trgovac iz Krama kod Vlasenice, osnovao je u Vlasenici t. z. vladu istočne Bosne, kojoj je bio sam na čelu, a major Dangić bio je komandant svih četa, odreda i operirao prema Višegra- du,)[During their work in Vlasenica, Acim Babic, merchant from Kram near Vlasenica, established so called government of eastern Bosnia with himself being its head, and major Dangice was commander of all companies, units and operated toward Visegrad]
од Зворника преко Власенице, Сребрнице, Соколца, па све до Стијена на Романији ослобођен је, било од стране партизанских, било четничких одреда мајора Дангића.- Even the official military institute of SFRY emphasizes that Dangic's forces participated in "liberation" of the area between Zvornik and Romanija which include Vlasenica, Srebrenica, Sokolac...[... from Zvornik over Vlasenica, Srebrnica, Sokolac and all the way until Stijene on Romanija was liberated either by Partisan or by Chetnik units of major Dangic]
Војвода Дангић је у Власеници успоставио привремену босанску владу[Voivode Dangic in Vlasenica installed provisional bosnian government] - This source written by Chetnik confirms claims of SFRY sources about "Provisional Government of Bosnia" proclaimed in Vlasenica by Dangić's Chetniks. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 12:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
According to the this source
Народ је почео да слави Дангића и да му нсва пссмс. Као што је ова: На сред горе Романије Четнички се барјак вије, Ај нека га нек се вије Он је дошао из Србије. Донела га Дангић рука, Команданта петог пука[People began to celebrate Dangić and to sing songs about him. Here is one of them: "Over Romanija mountain Chetnik flag is waved, let it be waved, it came from Serbia. Brought by the hand of Dangić, commander of the fifth division]
Dangic was celebrated by some people who composed songs in his honour. If that is true it might be a good idea to add this information to the article, together with information about his Karadjordje star ? --
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
07:48, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
...Два хероја славне Босне гора: Тодоровић и Дангић мајора...-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[Two heroes of glorious Bosnian mountains: Todorović and major Dangić]
The text of the article says:
Below source:
У затвору "Лефертовскаја тјурма" већ су се налазили: мајор Јездимир Дангић,...[In the prison Lefertovskaja Tjurma were already major Jezdimir Dangic....]
explains that he was first imprisoned in Moscow. Any thoughts?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Дангић, кога су Руси тек после 14 протесних нота и две и по године натезања и оклевања предали Титу[Dangic was reluctantly delivered by Russians to Tito after 14 protest notes and 2,5 years of avoiding it.] - This source confirms that he was first imprisoned in Moscow and only after some time decided to deliver him to Tito.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
д о сада је објављено неколико верзија краја војводе Дан- гића. ... По једној, предали су га одмах комунистичким властима у Београду.154 По другој одвели су га у Москву и, тек касније, 1947.[There are several versions of death of voivode Dangic... According to one of them, he was extradited to communist government in Belgrade immediately. According to other, he was taken to Moscow and later, in 1947... ]
...када је у једној борби био заробљен од стране совјетске армије, и одмах авионом пребачен у Москву.[...when he was captured by Soviet army in a battle and immediately transported to Moscow by plane.]
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Are you sure that (both) Đurić and Ratković are selpublished? Hoare in his work which is already used in this article uses Đurić as source. Maybe both should be avoided? Here is another non-selfpublished source:
Руси су га ухватили, 1947, и предали југосло- венским властима, а исте године над њим је извршена смртна пресуда.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[Russians captured him and extradited him to Yugoslav authorities to sentence him to death and kill him at the same year.]
Here is one English language source:
Dangic was eventually captured by the Germans and ended up in a Moscow prison at the war's end from where he was handed over to be hanged by the Partisans.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
под заповедништвом ђенерала Бор Коморовског. По крвавом угушењу овога устанка,.... - Дангић је поново пао у заробљеништво, које је ускоро било замењено бољшевичким. После страшних мучења по казаматима злогласне Лубјанке...[... Under command of Bor Komorowski. After this rebelion ended in blood Dangic was again imprisoned, this time Bolshevik. He was subjected to terrible torture in notorious Lubjanka...]- Lubyanka Building is in Moscow.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
The text mentions "liberation of Poland in 1945". I propose to replace "liberation" with more neutral term.--
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
17:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC) Done
Addressed:Information about Dangićs escape from the prison in 1943, and participation in the Warsaw uprising added to the article.
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If you can improve the article in any way using reliable sources then please do. 23 editor ( talk) 17:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
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Colic doesn't say he joined the Armija, just the uprising, I have amended the article (and the "solved" template) to reflect this. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 23:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
The article sources him to the rank of cavalry sub-lieutenant, but there is no mention of Major (several steps up from there). We know he made it to Major, as almost all sources refer to him as such, but when? Anyone have a source for it? Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 10:51, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Tomobe03 ( talk · contribs) 10:30, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
I'll review this nomination shortly.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 10:30, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Done.
Fixed.
Addressed.
Removed.
Fixed.
Since Hoare uses the word "allegedly" as to whether Dangić said these things or not (and since Hoare himself uses quotation marks when referring to the statement) I don't think quotation mark use is problematic.
Added "Axis forces"
Fixed.
Done.
Done.
Done.
Clarified.
Great work! The article covers a really interesting topic in a very informative way. There's quite little to cover to meet all GACR.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 22:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Oh one more thing. There is a passage:
In order to enlist further Chetnik aid and to intensify the Chetnik–Partisan split, Dangić was invited to Belgrade in late January by Nedić and General der Artillerie (lieutenant general) Paul Bader. There, meetings were held from 30 January to 2 February 1942.[44] Present were Bader, Professor Josif Matl, and Colonel Erich Kewisch for the Germans, Dangić and Pero Đukanović for the Chetniks, and Nedić and Aćimović for the Serbian puppet government.[65] Eventually, the two reached an agreement.
I'm looking at "the two reached an agreement" and can't stop thinking there were three parties in the negotiations and seven people were talking. I assume that "the two" means Dangić and an unspecified German (presumably Bader), but this sure reads odd. Could you rephrase that last sentence?-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 01:31, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
No problem, how does this look like? 23 editor ( talk) 02:07, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
U izvještaju Jezdimira Dangića. komandira tuzlanske žandarmerijske čete)-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:56, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[In the report of Jezdimir Dangic, commander of Tuzla gendarmerie company]
Addressed:Information about Drinjača agreement added to the article
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Ти шпијуни су четнички официри и самозване војводе Дангић, Тодоровић, Јеф- тић, Михаиловић,)-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[Those spies are Chetnik officers and self-declared voivode Dangice, Todorovic, Jeftic, Mihailovic...]
Addressed:Busic removed as a revisionist/unreliable
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Good point on Bušić. Can you find another source mentioning Colaković and the number of Muslim deaths Dangić was responsible for? Good work digging up sources so far. 23 editor ( talk) 23:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Дангићеви четници већ су попалили чи- тава муслиманска села око Рогатице, поклали су хиљаде ни кривих ни дужних муслимана у Фочи и Горажду.[Dangic's Chetniks already burned Muslim villages around Rogatica, slaughtered thousands innocent Muslims in Foca and Gorazde]- SFRY source but I guess it can be used with careful attribution
Према неким подацима, четници су на подручју Фоча - Горажде - Чајниче од октобра 1941 па до 20 јануара 1942 ликвидирали 5 до 6000 муслимана, што је вјероватно предимензионирано- This source says that, [according to some overestimations, in period October 1941 — 20 January 1942 Chetniks killed between 5,000 and 6,000 Muslims in the region of Foca - Gorazde - Cajnice.]-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 23:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Дангић је рођен у Подрињу, са Босанске стране, недалеко од Зворника. Гимназију учио у Тузли и као ђак припадао организацији Младе Босне, због чега је хапшен и затваран, пред Први светски рат, и био суђен и осуђиван...- this source also presents the information that he completed a high-school in Tuzla.[Dangic was born in Podrinje, on Bosnian side, near Zvornik. He attended high-school in Tuzla and as its student was member of Young Bosnia, for which he was arrested and imprisoned, before WWI, and trialed and sentenced...]
... Јездимира Дангића (Наше тамновање, Тузла, 1938. и Глад и тамница, Нови Сад, 1940). И они су били страдалници у аустроугарским затворима, па су такође забиљежили аутентичне догађаје и саопштили своја виђења и свједочења.[... of Jezdimir Dangić (Our imprisonment, Tuzla, 1938 and Hunger and prison, Novi Sad, 1940). They too suffered in Austria-Hungary's prisons and recorded authentic testimony and what they saw.]
...поједина сећања српских писаца остварена су превасходно као романескне творевине; видети, на пример, књиге Јездимира Дангића Наше тамновање, објављену под псеудонимом Мирољуб Богић, и Глад. и. тамница. Нови. Сад,. 1940. Предговор приповеткама Наше тамновање написао је приповедачев пријатељ, члан националног ћачког удружења, осућен као и он, Божидар М. Томшћ.[...some memories of Serbian writers are written as novels, i.e. works of Jezdimir Dangic "Our Imprisonment", published under alias Miroljub Bogić, and Hunger and Prison, Novi Sad, 1940. Introduction to to short-stories in "Hunger and Prison" is written by author's friend, member of students society who was, together with author, sentenced, Bozidar M. Tomsic.]-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:35, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Ухваћен, када су Немци овладали Вар- шавом,)[Caught when Germans took Warsaw,]. This means he was imprisoned by monarchists, fascists and communists five times for 7 years, five countries and three different ideologies:
ПРОГЛАС МУСЛИМАНА БОРАЦА НОП И ДВ ЈУГОСЛАВИЈЕ ОД ЈАНУАРА 1942 ГОД МУСЛИМАНИМА ИСТОЧНЕ БОСНЕ ПОВОДОМ ПОКУШАЈА ЧЕТНИКА ДА СТВОРЕ МУСЛИМАНСКЕ ЧЕТНИЧКЕ ФОРМАЦИЈЕ)[Proclamation of Muslim fighters of NOP and DV Yugoslavia on January 1942 to Muslims from Eastern Bosnia regarding attempts of Chetniks to create Muslim Chetniks units]-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 23:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Addressed:issues about the lead summarising Dangic's membership of Young Bosnia and his imprisonment; and inaccurate usage of Mirkovic to support figure of 1,370 Muslims killed in Gorazde under Dangic
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@PRODUCER, I sincerely apologize if I did not understand this sentence properly but, since you added this sentence ( diff), will you please be so kind to clarify what does it mean "relatively untouched by genocide" and present the full quotation from the source?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
The establishment of the Chetnik puppet administration proceeded in a manner that paralleled the establishment of the NDH only half a year earlier: the Chetniks carried out systematic massacres and plunder of the Mulsim population of east Bosnia much as the Ustashas to the west had carried out massacres of the Serbs. These Chetnik massacres were not simply an expression of Serb revenge for Ustasha crimes, for whereas the largest Ustasha massacres occurred in Bosanska Krajina, and especially in those areas of Croatia with large numbers of Serbs (Banija, Kordun, Lika, northern Dalmatia), the Chetnik movement in those areas was comparatively weak; the largest Chetnik massacres took place in east Bosnia, which had been relatively untouched by the Ustasha genocide until the spring of 1942.
Another loaded and almost rhetorical question. And another "ocean of sources"! None of which (of course) has actually been produced, in context, translated with information about author and publishing house. You can "think something is obvious" as much as you like, but it's OR unless Hoare explicitly says he is including the Sanjak. He doesn't, and in fact he mentions the Sanjak several times in the book, so it would be strange indeed if he meant to include it in this context, but didn't. What he does say is that east Bosnia was relatively untouched by the Ustasha genocide until July 1942. Which is what goes in the article. Desperate ploy thwarted. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 09:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Below is sourced text which explains that "east Bosnia being (relatively) untouched by Ustashe genocide before Spring 1942" assertion is not only illogical but also incorrect and misleading:
Eastern Bosnia was of particular importance for NDH and Ustashe because of Drina which they propagated as frontier of their worlds toward another world. They saw Drina as China wall-alike border which separates Croats from Serbia forever. Serbs who lived in region of east Bosnia (near Drina) were subjected to Ustashe terror just like in other parts of NDH. Before uprising in the east Bosnia, mass atrocities (including those in Drinjača, Rašića Gaj, Skelani...) already committed by Ustashe significantly contributed to the success of the uprising in east Bosnia.
Sources:
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If you feel my language is direct, I am sure that is just a cross-cultural thing. No doubt some would find your talk page behaviour frustrating, but I actually find it mildly entertaining. On balance though, I consider your involvement in articles I have edited as a negative, mainly due to the inordinate amount of time wasted explaining the application of WP policies and researching dubious authors and publishing houses, despite the fact you have been on WP longer than I.
This behaviour is exemplified by descending on an article when it is nominated for review, raising huge swathes of text on the talk page, with self-commissioned ticks and collapse boxes that no-one else is permitted to touch until you decide the matter has been addressed to your satisfaction (regardless of any consensus to the contrary), using snippets of phrases from primary sources, self-published sources, dubious or demonstrably biased or non-academic ones, with no context, no discussion of who the author is and what their academic credentials are, the bona fides of the publishing house etc. This information then has to be found by other interested editors, or sometimes you provide it when queried. This repeated and demonstrated behaviour also incorporates a demonstrated lack of editing in article space even on the odd occasion that the point is valid and a reliable, in-context source has been brought for it, and no-one has an objection to it being added. It is often characterised by a focus on incredibly unimportant things, like a song or the name of someone's brother, and claims that these additions (assuming a reliable source can be eventually found for them) are a significant improvement to the article in question. Sometimes this behaviour unearths a useful point, but even they are rarely raised without an observation of how it is "surprising XXXX was overlooked" or words to that effect. Sensitive souls might feel you were being sarcastic or questioning their motivation.
I don't share your view (stated above) on how much of a contribution you make to articles through this behaviour, my impression (based on significant interaction over time) is that this behaviour is probably aimed at trying to get material that doesn't suit your particular point of view removed, and vice versa. The Pavle Djurisic article, and the fact that you are topic banned from it, is a case in point, and this one (another Chetnik leader) is shaping up in a very similar way. I recommend you examine your behaviour and try to make one point at a time, properly, in context, using reliable sources whose bona fides withstand examination, rather than this shotgun approach. PRODUCER has said as much above, and we both have plenty of interaction with you we can point to in order to demonstrate this pattern of behaviour occurs. I might add that these observations are not about you as a person, as I do not know you and I am sure you would be very interesting to have a chat with, they are observations about your behaviour on talk pages on WP. Regards, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 07:59, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Addressed:Information about Dangić being a member of Young Bosnia, about him being arrested following Gavrilo Princip's assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, about his father's imprisonment and death are added to the article
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There are some sources which claim that Dangic was arrested by Austrians after the Sarajevo assassination in 1914 and sentenced to several years of prison as member of Yugoslavist movement Young Bosnia. If that is true it should be presented in the article, both in its text and its lede, together with clarification about the ideology of Young Bosnia.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:11, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
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Addressed:Assertion about Colakovic's visit removed because of lack of reliable source which supports it. Busic was determined as unreliable.
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What is the meaning/context/relevance of that sentence? -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
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According to the below source:
Наша мајка Невена Дангић, рође- на Јовановић, удова почившег Језди- мира Дангића,[Our mother Nevena Dangić, born Jovanović, widow of late Jezdimir Dangić]
Dangic had a wife (Nevena) and children.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 07:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC) He had brother Vojin, who also was chetnik:
Јездимир Дангић покушао да искупи бар један батаљон четника и да нападне Нову Касабу и Милиће. С тим задатком кренуо је ње- гов брат, Војин Дангић, из Братунца-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC) [Jezdimir Dangić attempted to gather at least a battalion of Chetniks to attack New Kasaba and Milići. With the same task his brother, Vojin Dangić, came from Bratunac]
The members of the joint command were Major Jezdimir Dangic, Captain Sergije Mihailovic and Pero Dukanovic on the Chetnik side, and Rodoljub Colakovic, Slobodan Princip and Svetozar Vukmanovic on the Partisan side.
У Оперативни штаб ушли су од стране партизана: Светозар Вук- мановић-Темпо, Родољуб Чолаковић и Слободан Принцип-Сељо, а од стране четника: Јездимкр Дангић, капетан Сергије Михајловић и Перо Ђукановић-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[The Operational Headquarter was composed of following Partisans: Svetozar Vukmanović Tempo, Rodoljub Čolaković and Slobodan Princip-Seljo, and from Chetnik side: Jezdimir Dangić, captain Sergije Mihajlović and Pero Đukanović]
Мол- ба Дангићеве жене маршалу Титу за по- миловање била је одбијена.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[The plead of Dangićs wife to marshal Tito was rejected]
I am placing this in its own section, as I believe it has become necessary to reinforce what WP policy expects from editors on talk pages in respect of bringing non-English sources. These policies have apparently been lost sight of in a rush to produce dozens of "possible" sources for various things about the subject of this article. Quotes in languages other than English should always be accompanied by a translation into English, per WP:NONENG. When producing quotes from sources that are not in English, in order to meet the requirements of WP:V, it is necessary for editors to provide greater context than just a sentence pulled out of a source. I would appreciate it if all editors on this talk page would comply with WP:NONENG in future when producing sources. I personally will not be addressing any comments that include non-English text unless they include a full translation (not a summation of the content). It is also very important that editors producing non-English sources on talk pages (assuming they are bringing them because they consider they may be WP:RELIABLE) that information is provided about the author and publisher. Otherwise, the editor producing the source could be giving the impression that they expect other editors to do their work for them in showing that the source(s) are reliable (or not). Of course, there would be little point bringing clearly unreliable sources to a talk page (especially self-published ones), and some editors might consider that repeatedly doing so is disruptive. Regards, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 09:29, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
There are sources that Dangić took Foča from Axis forces (and according to some of them persecuted its Muslim population).
Четнички командант заузео је Фочу у децембру 1941[Chetnik commander took Foca in December 1941]
Tako su četnici još istoga dana ušli u Goražde, a 5. prosinca 1941. u Foču, u kojoj su ostali do 20. siječnja 1942[So Chetniks entered Gorazde on the same daz and on 5. December into Foca where they stayed until 20 January 1942]
У градовима: Фочи, Горажду, Чајничу, као и у" околним селима завладао је дивљи терор. Четничке руље под воћством разних Дангића, Михаило- вића, Ђекића, Тодоровића и других издајника[In cities: Foca, Gorazde, Cajnice as well as in the surrounding villages was wild terror. Chetnik hordes under command of Dangic, Mihailovic, Djekic, Todorovic and other threators....]
Foča is not even mentioned in the article. Any thoughts?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
...Братунац „славио побједу". Дангић је успио да се натури за команданта тамошњих снага, које су првих дана устанка биле окулљене око Пере Ђукановића[... Bratunac celebrated a victory. Dangic managed to impose himself as commander of the forces that initially during first days of rebellion were gathered around Pera Djukanovic]
Дангић и Ботић су у Братунцу, гдје се налази четничка команда позадине. Ријешили смо да одмах ноћас нападнемо Власеницу, па тек онда да кренемо на Братунац. Ако бисмо одмах пошли на Братунац, Дангић ће побјећи[Dangic and Botic are in Bratunac where Chetnik headquarter for supplies was. We decided to attack Vlasenica immediately, and only then to go to Bratunac. Otherwise, if we would attack Bratunac now, Dangic will escape...]
...када се устанак на Романи]и разбуктао, непри]ател> ]е поново напустио Власеницу, у ко]у су ушли четници Дангића и Аћима). [... when rebellion on Romanija spread, the enemy retreated from Vlasenica that was entered by Chetniks of Dangic and Acim]
Toga dana pala je u naše ruke Vlasenica, sjedište zapovjednika Dangića,). Is it true? Work of Dedijer/Miletić clarify that in Vlasenica Chetniks established 'Government of Eastern Bosnia' which president was Aćim Babić while Dangić was commander of all military units (Vladimir Dedijer; Antun Miletić (1990). Genocid nad Muslimanima, 1941-1945. Svjetlost. p. 87. Retrieved 30 September 2013.
Prilikom njihovog rada u Vlasenici, Aćim Babić trgovac iz Krama kod Vlasenice, osnovao je u Vlasenici t. z. vladu istočne Bosne, kojoj je bio sam na čelu, a major Dangić bio je komandant svih četa, odreda i operirao prema Višegra- du,)[During their work in Vlasenica, Acim Babic, merchant from Kram near Vlasenica, established so called government of eastern Bosnia with himself being its head, and major Dangice was commander of all companies, units and operated toward Visegrad]
од Зворника преко Власенице, Сребрнице, Соколца, па све до Стијена на Романији ослобођен је, било од стране партизанских, било четничких одреда мајора Дангића.- Even the official military institute of SFRY emphasizes that Dangic's forces participated in "liberation" of the area between Zvornik and Romanija which include Vlasenica, Srebrenica, Sokolac...[... from Zvornik over Vlasenica, Srebrnica, Sokolac and all the way until Stijene on Romanija was liberated either by Partisan or by Chetnik units of major Dangic]
Војвода Дангић је у Власеници успоставио привремену босанску владу[Voivode Dangic in Vlasenica installed provisional bosnian government] - This source written by Chetnik confirms claims of SFRY sources about "Provisional Government of Bosnia" proclaimed in Vlasenica by Dangić's Chetniks. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 12:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
According to the this source
Народ је почео да слави Дангића и да му нсва пссмс. Као што је ова: На сред горе Романије Четнички се барјак вије, Ај нека га нек се вије Он је дошао из Србије. Донела га Дангић рука, Команданта петог пука[People began to celebrate Dangić and to sing songs about him. Here is one of them: "Over Romanija mountain Chetnik flag is waved, let it be waved, it came from Serbia. Brought by the hand of Dangić, commander of the fifth division]
Dangic was celebrated by some people who composed songs in his honour. If that is true it might be a good idea to add this information to the article, together with information about his Karadjordje star ? --
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
07:48, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
...Два хероја славне Босне гора: Тодоровић и Дангић мајора...-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[Two heroes of glorious Bosnian mountains: Todorović and major Dangić]
The text of the article says:
Below source:
У затвору "Лефертовскаја тјурма" већ су се налазили: мајор Јездимир Дангић,...[In the prison Lefertovskaja Tjurma were already major Jezdimir Dangic....]
explains that he was first imprisoned in Moscow. Any thoughts?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Дангић, кога су Руси тек после 14 протесних нота и две и по године натезања и оклевања предали Титу[Dangic was reluctantly delivered by Russians to Tito after 14 protest notes and 2,5 years of avoiding it.] - This source confirms that he was first imprisoned in Moscow and only after some time decided to deliver him to Tito.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
д о сада је објављено неколико верзија краја војводе Дан- гића. ... По једној, предали су га одмах комунистичким властима у Београду.154 По другој одвели су га у Москву и, тек касније, 1947.[There are several versions of death of voivode Dangic... According to one of them, he was extradited to communist government in Belgrade immediately. According to other, he was taken to Moscow and later, in 1947... ]
...када је у једној борби био заробљен од стране совјетске армије, и одмах авионом пребачен у Москву.[...when he was captured by Soviet army in a battle and immediately transported to Moscow by plane.]
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Are you sure that (both) Đurić and Ratković are selpublished? Hoare in his work which is already used in this article uses Đurić as source. Maybe both should be avoided? Here is another non-selfpublished source:
Руси су га ухватили, 1947, и предали југосло- венским властима, а исте године над њим је извршена смртна пресуда.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[Russians captured him and extradited him to Yugoslav authorities to sentence him to death and kill him at the same year.]
Here is one English language source:
Dangic was eventually captured by the Germans and ended up in a Moscow prison at the war's end from where he was handed over to be hanged by the Partisans.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
под заповедништвом ђенерала Бор Коморовског. По крвавом угушењу овога устанка,.... - Дангић је поново пао у заробљеништво, које је ускоро било замењено бољшевичким. После страшних мучења по казаматима злогласне Лубјанке...[... Under command of Bor Komorowski. After this rebelion ended in blood Dangic was again imprisoned, this time Bolshevik. He was subjected to terrible torture in notorious Lubjanka...]- Lubyanka Building is in Moscow.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
The text mentions "liberation of Poland in 1945". I propose to replace "liberation" with more neutral term.--
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
17:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC) Done
Addressed:Information about Dangićs escape from the prison in 1943, and participation in the Warsaw uprising added to the article.
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If you can improve the article in any way using reliable sources then please do. 23 editor ( talk) 17:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
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Colic doesn't say he joined the Armija, just the uprising, I have amended the article (and the "solved" template) to reflect this. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 23:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
The article sources him to the rank of cavalry sub-lieutenant, but there is no mention of Major (several steps up from there). We know he made it to Major, as almost all sources refer to him as such, but when? Anyone have a source for it? Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 10:51, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Tomobe03 ( talk · contribs) 10:30, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
I'll review this nomination shortly.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 10:30, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Done.
Fixed.
Addressed.
Removed.
Fixed.
Since Hoare uses the word "allegedly" as to whether Dangić said these things or not (and since Hoare himself uses quotation marks when referring to the statement) I don't think quotation mark use is problematic.
Added "Axis forces"
Fixed.
Done.
Done.
Done.
Clarified.
Great work! The article covers a really interesting topic in a very informative way. There's quite little to cover to meet all GACR.-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 22:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Oh one more thing. There is a passage:
In order to enlist further Chetnik aid and to intensify the Chetnik–Partisan split, Dangić was invited to Belgrade in late January by Nedić and General der Artillerie (lieutenant general) Paul Bader. There, meetings were held from 30 January to 2 February 1942.[44] Present were Bader, Professor Josif Matl, and Colonel Erich Kewisch for the Germans, Dangić and Pero Đukanović for the Chetniks, and Nedić and Aćimović for the Serbian puppet government.[65] Eventually, the two reached an agreement.
I'm looking at "the two reached an agreement" and can't stop thinking there were three parties in the negotiations and seven people were talking. I assume that "the two" means Dangić and an unspecified German (presumably Bader), but this sure reads odd. Could you rephrase that last sentence?-- Tomobe03 ( talk) 01:31, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
No problem, how does this look like? 23 editor ( talk) 02:07, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
U izvještaju Jezdimira Dangića. komandira tuzlanske žandarmerijske čete)-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:56, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[In the report of Jezdimir Dangic, commander of Tuzla gendarmerie company]
Addressed:Information about Drinjača agreement added to the article
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Ти шпијуни су четнички официри и самозване војводе Дангић, Тодоровић, Јеф- тић, Михаиловић,)-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[Those spies are Chetnik officers and self-declared voivode Dangice, Todorovic, Jeftic, Mihailovic...]
Addressed:Busic removed as a revisionist/unreliable
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Good point on Bušić. Can you find another source mentioning Colaković and the number of Muslim deaths Dangić was responsible for? Good work digging up sources so far. 23 editor ( talk) 23:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Дангићеви четници већ су попалили чи- тава муслиманска села око Рогатице, поклали су хиљаде ни кривих ни дужних муслимана у Фочи и Горажду.[Dangic's Chetniks already burned Muslim villages around Rogatica, slaughtered thousands innocent Muslims in Foca and Gorazde]- SFRY source but I guess it can be used with careful attribution
Према неким подацима, четници су на подручју Фоча - Горажде - Чајниче од октобра 1941 па до 20 јануара 1942 ликвидирали 5 до 6000 муслимана, што је вјероватно предимензионирано- This source says that, [according to some overestimations, in period October 1941 — 20 January 1942 Chetniks killed between 5,000 and 6,000 Muslims in the region of Foca - Gorazde - Cajnice.]-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 23:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Дангић је рођен у Подрињу, са Босанске стране, недалеко од Зворника. Гимназију учио у Тузли и као ђак припадао организацији Младе Босне, због чега је хапшен и затваран, пред Први светски рат, и био суђен и осуђиван...- this source also presents the information that he completed a high-school in Tuzla.[Dangic was born in Podrinje, on Bosnian side, near Zvornik. He attended high-school in Tuzla and as its student was member of Young Bosnia, for which he was arrested and imprisoned, before WWI, and trialed and sentenced...]
... Јездимира Дангића (Наше тамновање, Тузла, 1938. и Глад и тамница, Нови Сад, 1940). И они су били страдалници у аустроугарским затворима, па су такође забиљежили аутентичне догађаје и саопштили своја виђења и свједочења.[... of Jezdimir Dangić (Our imprisonment, Tuzla, 1938 and Hunger and prison, Novi Sad, 1940). They too suffered in Austria-Hungary's prisons and recorded authentic testimony and what they saw.]
...поједина сећања српских писаца остварена су превасходно као романескне творевине; видети, на пример, књиге Јездимира Дангића Наше тамновање, објављену под псеудонимом Мирољуб Богић, и Глад. и. тамница. Нови. Сад,. 1940. Предговор приповеткама Наше тамновање написао је приповедачев пријатељ, члан националног ћачког удружења, осућен као и он, Божидар М. Томшћ.[...some memories of Serbian writers are written as novels, i.e. works of Jezdimir Dangic "Our Imprisonment", published under alias Miroljub Bogić, and Hunger and Prison, Novi Sad, 1940. Introduction to to short-stories in "Hunger and Prison" is written by author's friend, member of students society who was, together with author, sentenced, Bozidar M. Tomsic.]-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:35, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Ухваћен, када су Немци овладали Вар- шавом,)[Caught when Germans took Warsaw,]. This means he was imprisoned by monarchists, fascists and communists five times for 7 years, five countries and three different ideologies:
ПРОГЛАС МУСЛИМАНА БОРАЦА НОП И ДВ ЈУГОСЛАВИЈЕ ОД ЈАНУАРА 1942 ГОД МУСЛИМАНИМА ИСТОЧНЕ БОСНЕ ПОВОДОМ ПОКУШАЈА ЧЕТНИКА ДА СТВОРЕ МУСЛИМАНСКЕ ЧЕТНИЧКЕ ФОРМАЦИЈЕ)[Proclamation of Muslim fighters of NOP and DV Yugoslavia on January 1942 to Muslims from Eastern Bosnia regarding attempts of Chetniks to create Muslim Chetniks units]-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 23:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Addressed:issues about the lead summarising Dangic's membership of Young Bosnia and his imprisonment; and inaccurate usage of Mirkovic to support figure of 1,370 Muslims killed in Gorazde under Dangic
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@PRODUCER, I sincerely apologize if I did not understand this sentence properly but, since you added this sentence ( diff), will you please be so kind to clarify what does it mean "relatively untouched by genocide" and present the full quotation from the source?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
The establishment of the Chetnik puppet administration proceeded in a manner that paralleled the establishment of the NDH only half a year earlier: the Chetniks carried out systematic massacres and plunder of the Mulsim population of east Bosnia much as the Ustashas to the west had carried out massacres of the Serbs. These Chetnik massacres were not simply an expression of Serb revenge for Ustasha crimes, for whereas the largest Ustasha massacres occurred in Bosanska Krajina, and especially in those areas of Croatia with large numbers of Serbs (Banija, Kordun, Lika, northern Dalmatia), the Chetnik movement in those areas was comparatively weak; the largest Chetnik massacres took place in east Bosnia, which had been relatively untouched by the Ustasha genocide until the spring of 1942.
Another loaded and almost rhetorical question. And another "ocean of sources"! None of which (of course) has actually been produced, in context, translated with information about author and publishing house. You can "think something is obvious" as much as you like, but it's OR unless Hoare explicitly says he is including the Sanjak. He doesn't, and in fact he mentions the Sanjak several times in the book, so it would be strange indeed if he meant to include it in this context, but didn't. What he does say is that east Bosnia was relatively untouched by the Ustasha genocide until July 1942. Which is what goes in the article. Desperate ploy thwarted. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 09:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Below is sourced text which explains that "east Bosnia being (relatively) untouched by Ustashe genocide before Spring 1942" assertion is not only illogical but also incorrect and misleading:
Eastern Bosnia was of particular importance for NDH and Ustashe because of Drina which they propagated as frontier of their worlds toward another world. They saw Drina as China wall-alike border which separates Croats from Serbia forever. Serbs who lived in region of east Bosnia (near Drina) were subjected to Ustashe terror just like in other parts of NDH. Before uprising in the east Bosnia, mass atrocities (including those in Drinjača, Rašića Gaj, Skelani...) already committed by Ustashe significantly contributed to the success of the uprising in east Bosnia.
Sources:
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If you feel my language is direct, I am sure that is just a cross-cultural thing. No doubt some would find your talk page behaviour frustrating, but I actually find it mildly entertaining. On balance though, I consider your involvement in articles I have edited as a negative, mainly due to the inordinate amount of time wasted explaining the application of WP policies and researching dubious authors and publishing houses, despite the fact you have been on WP longer than I.
This behaviour is exemplified by descending on an article when it is nominated for review, raising huge swathes of text on the talk page, with self-commissioned ticks and collapse boxes that no-one else is permitted to touch until you decide the matter has been addressed to your satisfaction (regardless of any consensus to the contrary), using snippets of phrases from primary sources, self-published sources, dubious or demonstrably biased or non-academic ones, with no context, no discussion of who the author is and what their academic credentials are, the bona fides of the publishing house etc. This information then has to be found by other interested editors, or sometimes you provide it when queried. This repeated and demonstrated behaviour also incorporates a demonstrated lack of editing in article space even on the odd occasion that the point is valid and a reliable, in-context source has been brought for it, and no-one has an objection to it being added. It is often characterised by a focus on incredibly unimportant things, like a song or the name of someone's brother, and claims that these additions (assuming a reliable source can be eventually found for them) are a significant improvement to the article in question. Sometimes this behaviour unearths a useful point, but even they are rarely raised without an observation of how it is "surprising XXXX was overlooked" or words to that effect. Sensitive souls might feel you were being sarcastic or questioning their motivation.
I don't share your view (stated above) on how much of a contribution you make to articles through this behaviour, my impression (based on significant interaction over time) is that this behaviour is probably aimed at trying to get material that doesn't suit your particular point of view removed, and vice versa. The Pavle Djurisic article, and the fact that you are topic banned from it, is a case in point, and this one (another Chetnik leader) is shaping up in a very similar way. I recommend you examine your behaviour and try to make one point at a time, properly, in context, using reliable sources whose bona fides withstand examination, rather than this shotgun approach. PRODUCER has said as much above, and we both have plenty of interaction with you we can point to in order to demonstrate this pattern of behaviour occurs. I might add that these observations are not about you as a person, as I do not know you and I am sure you would be very interesting to have a chat with, they are observations about your behaviour on talk pages on WP. Regards, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 07:59, 3 October 2013 (UTC)