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Do we have a citation for this? It's a very broad statement and I don't find that statement in either of the two references provided. It recently replaced less definitive, more equivocal language (which I agree was problematic), but it may be over-reach. Can someone provide a cite or clarification? Thanks. Mr. Swordfish ( talk) 17:05, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
First you say there are no Christian leaders who say that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian, and then when I point out that there clearly are, you shift your argument to some other claim. In fact, you are incorrect about the content of your original link to the JCRC of New York. You incorrectly claim this is a national organization, when it is just New York. Look up the definition of Jew in any standard dictionary. It does not mean just those who practice the Jewish faith. The primary meaning of Jew is people who trace their descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from adherents of Judaism in the Jewish diaspora. It is primarily based on ancestry, not current religious practice. Thus, your reference to "Christians for Muhammad" is incorrect, since there is no ethnicity called "Christian". In fact, the original 12 apostles of Jesus were Jews. Were they not "Jews for Jesus"? -- Westwind273 ( talk) 05:31, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
The reference to lying is point taken. I apologize, and I have edited my remarks to make this point with civility. As for bigotry, I do not believe the other editor is generally a bigot. But I do believe the content of this article exhibits bigotry, and when an editor restates the content of the article on the talk page, it also exhibits bigotry. If there were a Wikipedia article which stated factually that all Muslims are devils, then would an editor be incorrect in stating on the talk page that this is a bigoted article? The Nazi regime is not hyperbole, it is a historical fact. Historical comparisons are in fact valid argument. In the end, Wikipedia's greatest weakness is its liberal and anti-evangelical bias. The members of Jews for Jesus are of Jewish ancestry and self-identify as Jews. Can't you see how insulting it is for a Wikipedia article to factually state that they are not Jews? But I guess Wikipedia editors always come down on the side of liberals and anti-evangelicals. So I give up. I will not post here anymore. -- Westwind273 ( talk) 23:21, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
Thank you. I will try to follow your guidelines. -- Westwind273 ( talk) 04:25, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
To address newer claims - Jews for Jesus does present themselves as a Jewish organization (this is one page from their website filled with references to themselves as Jews
Jews For Jesus Messianic Jews )
Neither this article, nor this sentence address
"Who is a Jew?". The organization in question is not accepted as Jewish. That doesn't mean that there aren't Jews (as well as non-Jews) in that organization.
I have never heard that "Hebrew Christians" was pejorative, and a quick google search doesn't turn anything up for me (there is even a wikipedia page on the Hebrew Christian movement, and it seems fairly positive).
There is (obviously) a lot of controversy around Jews for Jesus. The point that "Jews for Jesus is not considered a sect of Judaism by any mainstream Jewish authorities." is an important part of addressing the controversy. Although, I could see making the argument that Jews for Jesus is more of an organization and "Messianic Jews" would be the correct name for the "sect". Unless you don't consider Jews for Jesus to be a sub-organization of Messianic Jews?
If you feel the article is missing information, then you could add it.
Laella (
talk)
07:04, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
I suggest that the second sentence of the introduction be changed to "Jews for Jesus is not considered a Jewish organization by any mainstream Jewish authorities." -- Westwind273 ( talk) 17:05, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
I would like to offer some observations and advice as we all work to improve this article over time. As we work with reliable sources, two key examples of sources which are being considered as reliable are: (1) The JVL page, which the article introduction references https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-for-jesus, and (2) the JFJ page that you (Laella) referenced https://jewsforjesus.org/jewish-resources/community/messianic-jews/. I would like to point out that although these are being used as reliable sources, both pages contain multiple statements that are demonstrably false. Thus my point about use of “reliable sources” as being a subjective exercise. Probably the most egregious falsehoods on the JVL page are when it ascribes solely to JFJ certain beliefs which are in fact held by all evangelicals. Just to take one example, JVL states that JFJ uses the Old Testament (OT) as evidence that Jesus is the Messiah, whereas evangelicals use the New Testament (NT). In fact, both JFJ and standard evangelicals use both the OT and NT as proof that Jesus is the Messiah. Turning to the JFJ page on Messianic Jews, JFJ claims as history certain things for which there is no objective historical proof, or in fact there is historical proof to the contrary. Without getting into the nitty gritty details, the JFJ page goes through historical gymnastics to try to demonstrate that there always existed throughout history groups that we would call Jewish Christians, when in fact Jewish Christianity stemming directly from the ministry of Jesus lasted only as long as the Ebionites and the original Nazarenes at most. When you have both sides issuing falsehoods like this, creating a balanced and factual Wikipedia article can be very difficult. This is why I ask future authors to tread very carefully. My basic point is that things are not black and white. There are many shades of gray. Yes, JFJ tends to maintain many Jewish practices while being evangelical Christians. But so do certain Christians. Most Christians don’t celebrate seder meals, but in fact there are a large number of Catholics and Protestants who do celebrate seder. It is not forbidden by the Christian faith, and many consider it a way to get in touch with the Jewish roots of Christianity. Furthermore, there are some Christian denominations who are even more Jewish than JFJ. Armstrongism comes to mind, where they do not celebrate Christmas/Easter (pagan origins), do not eat pork/shellfish, do not believe in the Trinity, and worship on Saturday not Sunday. As I mentioned before, Christianity and Judaism have origins which are deeply intertwined, and blanket statements of criticism often destroy neutrality in the article. -- Westwind273 ( talk) 04:46, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
I think that the outline of the page needs to be improved. Following other similar pages, I suggest the following structure: (I included all sections that are in the current article) I welcome your feedback on this.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Laella ( talk • contribs) 19:27, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
The large changes, dropping lots of accepted information and adding a lot of propaganda need to be discussed on the talk page. Most of this article is not acceptable as is at the moment. The point of this article should not be as a propaganda piece for Jews for Jesus, and you can not leave out criticisms. Many of the changes are to things that have been discussed over many years to come to a consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laella ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC) I agree, this should be a protected page. Too much promotional and biased editing. Yoleaux ( talk) 20:45, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Scanning through the page, I was surprised at the bias against this organization. I know it is a controversial topic, but this clearly violates Wikipedia’s neutrality standards. There should be a balance of information. Because of that, I’ve added a couple relevant quotes to the article to help restore some of that balance. I have also removed/edited a couple statements that have logical fallacies, which I will explain in detail below:
If anyone disagrees with any of the changes I made, before undoing my changes, please respond to me on the talk page and let’s discuss this. I intend to be very responsive on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AEditing3 ( talk • contribs) 01:39, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
@ Intercalate I removed the information about the Better Business Bureau because it included a large chunk of what is a standard BBB message when a charity does not interact with it. A lot of churches do not seek BBB approval. They might use a different group like Candid (organization) (aka GuideStar) or Charity Navigator. Jews for Jesus might well be problematic as far as finances; however, Wikipedia needs a reliable source stating this. Note the BBB also states in a section not quoted: "It[this report] is not intended to recommend or deprecate". Is there a reason you want to include this in the entry? Erp ( talk) 04:30, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jews for Jesus article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8Auto-archiving period: 180 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Jews for Jesus. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Jews for Jesus at the Reference desk. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
Wikimedia Foundation's
Terms of Use require that editors disclose their "employer, client, and affiliation" with respect to any paid contribution; see
WP:PAID. For advice about reviewing paid contributions, see
WP:COIRESPONSE.
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Do we have a citation for this? It's a very broad statement and I don't find that statement in either of the two references provided. It recently replaced less definitive, more equivocal language (which I agree was problematic), but it may be over-reach. Can someone provide a cite or clarification? Thanks. Mr. Swordfish ( talk) 17:05, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
First you say there are no Christian leaders who say that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian, and then when I point out that there clearly are, you shift your argument to some other claim. In fact, you are incorrect about the content of your original link to the JCRC of New York. You incorrectly claim this is a national organization, when it is just New York. Look up the definition of Jew in any standard dictionary. It does not mean just those who practice the Jewish faith. The primary meaning of Jew is people who trace their descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from adherents of Judaism in the Jewish diaspora. It is primarily based on ancestry, not current religious practice. Thus, your reference to "Christians for Muhammad" is incorrect, since there is no ethnicity called "Christian". In fact, the original 12 apostles of Jesus were Jews. Were they not "Jews for Jesus"? -- Westwind273 ( talk) 05:31, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
The reference to lying is point taken. I apologize, and I have edited my remarks to make this point with civility. As for bigotry, I do not believe the other editor is generally a bigot. But I do believe the content of this article exhibits bigotry, and when an editor restates the content of the article on the talk page, it also exhibits bigotry. If there were a Wikipedia article which stated factually that all Muslims are devils, then would an editor be incorrect in stating on the talk page that this is a bigoted article? The Nazi regime is not hyperbole, it is a historical fact. Historical comparisons are in fact valid argument. In the end, Wikipedia's greatest weakness is its liberal and anti-evangelical bias. The members of Jews for Jesus are of Jewish ancestry and self-identify as Jews. Can't you see how insulting it is for a Wikipedia article to factually state that they are not Jews? But I guess Wikipedia editors always come down on the side of liberals and anti-evangelicals. So I give up. I will not post here anymore. -- Westwind273 ( talk) 23:21, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
Thank you. I will try to follow your guidelines. -- Westwind273 ( talk) 04:25, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
To address newer claims - Jews for Jesus does present themselves as a Jewish organization (this is one page from their website filled with references to themselves as Jews
Jews For Jesus Messianic Jews )
Neither this article, nor this sentence address
"Who is a Jew?". The organization in question is not accepted as Jewish. That doesn't mean that there aren't Jews (as well as non-Jews) in that organization.
I have never heard that "Hebrew Christians" was pejorative, and a quick google search doesn't turn anything up for me (there is even a wikipedia page on the Hebrew Christian movement, and it seems fairly positive).
There is (obviously) a lot of controversy around Jews for Jesus. The point that "Jews for Jesus is not considered a sect of Judaism by any mainstream Jewish authorities." is an important part of addressing the controversy. Although, I could see making the argument that Jews for Jesus is more of an organization and "Messianic Jews" would be the correct name for the "sect". Unless you don't consider Jews for Jesus to be a sub-organization of Messianic Jews?
If you feel the article is missing information, then you could add it.
Laella (
talk)
07:04, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
I suggest that the second sentence of the introduction be changed to "Jews for Jesus is not considered a Jewish organization by any mainstream Jewish authorities." -- Westwind273 ( talk) 17:05, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
I would like to offer some observations and advice as we all work to improve this article over time. As we work with reliable sources, two key examples of sources which are being considered as reliable are: (1) The JVL page, which the article introduction references https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-for-jesus, and (2) the JFJ page that you (Laella) referenced https://jewsforjesus.org/jewish-resources/community/messianic-jews/. I would like to point out that although these are being used as reliable sources, both pages contain multiple statements that are demonstrably false. Thus my point about use of “reliable sources” as being a subjective exercise. Probably the most egregious falsehoods on the JVL page are when it ascribes solely to JFJ certain beliefs which are in fact held by all evangelicals. Just to take one example, JVL states that JFJ uses the Old Testament (OT) as evidence that Jesus is the Messiah, whereas evangelicals use the New Testament (NT). In fact, both JFJ and standard evangelicals use both the OT and NT as proof that Jesus is the Messiah. Turning to the JFJ page on Messianic Jews, JFJ claims as history certain things for which there is no objective historical proof, or in fact there is historical proof to the contrary. Without getting into the nitty gritty details, the JFJ page goes through historical gymnastics to try to demonstrate that there always existed throughout history groups that we would call Jewish Christians, when in fact Jewish Christianity stemming directly from the ministry of Jesus lasted only as long as the Ebionites and the original Nazarenes at most. When you have both sides issuing falsehoods like this, creating a balanced and factual Wikipedia article can be very difficult. This is why I ask future authors to tread very carefully. My basic point is that things are not black and white. There are many shades of gray. Yes, JFJ tends to maintain many Jewish practices while being evangelical Christians. But so do certain Christians. Most Christians don’t celebrate seder meals, but in fact there are a large number of Catholics and Protestants who do celebrate seder. It is not forbidden by the Christian faith, and many consider it a way to get in touch with the Jewish roots of Christianity. Furthermore, there are some Christian denominations who are even more Jewish than JFJ. Armstrongism comes to mind, where they do not celebrate Christmas/Easter (pagan origins), do not eat pork/shellfish, do not believe in the Trinity, and worship on Saturday not Sunday. As I mentioned before, Christianity and Judaism have origins which are deeply intertwined, and blanket statements of criticism often destroy neutrality in the article. -- Westwind273 ( talk) 04:46, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
I think that the outline of the page needs to be improved. Following other similar pages, I suggest the following structure: (I included all sections that are in the current article) I welcome your feedback on this.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Laella ( talk • contribs) 19:27, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
The large changes, dropping lots of accepted information and adding a lot of propaganda need to be discussed on the talk page. Most of this article is not acceptable as is at the moment. The point of this article should not be as a propaganda piece for Jews for Jesus, and you can not leave out criticisms. Many of the changes are to things that have been discussed over many years to come to a consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laella ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC) I agree, this should be a protected page. Too much promotional and biased editing. Yoleaux ( talk) 20:45, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Scanning through the page, I was surprised at the bias against this organization. I know it is a controversial topic, but this clearly violates Wikipedia’s neutrality standards. There should be a balance of information. Because of that, I’ve added a couple relevant quotes to the article to help restore some of that balance. I have also removed/edited a couple statements that have logical fallacies, which I will explain in detail below:
If anyone disagrees with any of the changes I made, before undoing my changes, please respond to me on the talk page and let’s discuss this. I intend to be very responsive on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AEditing3 ( talk • contribs) 01:39, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
@ Intercalate I removed the information about the Better Business Bureau because it included a large chunk of what is a standard BBB message when a charity does not interact with it. A lot of churches do not seek BBB approval. They might use a different group like Candid (organization) (aka GuideStar) or Charity Navigator. Jews for Jesus might well be problematic as far as finances; however, Wikipedia needs a reliable source stating this. Note the BBB also states in a section not quoted: "It[this report] is not intended to recommend or deprecate". Is there a reason you want to include this in the entry? Erp ( talk) 04:30, 28 March 2024 (UTC)