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The term "Jewish lobby" is used by some without prejudice to refer to the Israel lobby in the United States, although it seems clear that it is not a precise term. It would be good to note this in the introductory sentence or alternatively (and I prefer this solution) we could put "For X, see Y" notes on the top of both this page and the Israel lobby in the United States in order to handle the confusion between these two terms in the standard Wikipedia way. -- Deodar 15:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that it is included in the Antisemitism collection is laughable, its purpose is to suggest that criticism of Zionism is the same antisemitism, which to any serious discourse is wholly different.
70.178.56.254 16:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I just moved this from the article to here:
The problem is that Mearsheimer and Walt do not use the term "Jewish lobby" in their paper, the author of the Washington Times article paraphrases their use of "Israel Lobby" as "Jewish lobby" and then attacks it -- it appears to be a use of the "straw man" rhetorical technique. Read the WT article and you'll see what I mean. Because of this, it isn't accurate to criticize Mearsheimer and Walt in this article for "using" the term "Jewish lobby", they didn't. -- Deodar 17:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The footnotes have doubled themselves at the end and I can't see why they're doing it.
Bhouston, when you write refs, could you please start with the name of the author, if there is one? The usual practise is surname first, but it's name first in any event. Also, be sure to put quotation marks around the title of the paper/article. e.g.
Also, please don't put quotations in italics. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
(moved from SV talk page) It would be cool to answer my response on the talk page. Both you and Jayjg seem to be avoiding answering it. The term "Jewish lobby" is used by the BBC, Ha'aretz, Time Magazine (historically), and the New York Times in non prejudical fashions. I can find lots more references. I will continue to pursue this and outside commentators will see that your extreme position, i.e. that the term is never used by non racists or people pushing distortions, is non-nonsensical -- you are painting with too broad a brush. I know how you feel but you are not taking a position on this article that reflects all of reality, just a single aspect of it. -- Deodar 02:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Bhouston, regardless of any other consideration, please don't keep trying to switch the focus to only one country and one issue. The term is used by many groups all over the world to refer to many things. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, Jayjg and Humus sapiens have been removing references that the term "Jewish lobby" may be made in reference to the Israel lobby in the United States. It is true that the term is a favorite of racists as the current state of the article reflects but this is not its only usage as my previous comments on this page clearly show. The term is used by mainstream American, British and Israeli publications in non-prejudical fashion to reference the Israel lobby in the United States. That said, there is a deeper reason why the removal of this viewpoint by SlimVirgin, Jayjg and Humus sapiens is a bad idea. People that hear in vague references about a supposed "Jewish lobby" from whatever sources informal or not may end up here. They may also hear that talking about the Jewish lobby is taboo even though it exists. This page, if it only condemns any mention of it as anti-Semitism but there is some hints in the way it is condemned to suggest there is more too it, it reduces the effectiveness of condemning things as anti-Semitic. Refusing to deal with the topic here, i.e. not satisfying people's curiosity, may cause people to seek information elsewhere, information which may not, especially if it is on racists sites, present a honest picture. It is much better to satisfy people's curiosity with the truth, aim to correct people that get distorted understandings of the "Jewish lobby" in addition to pointing out what are distortions and why some groups promote them. The truth it is a lot more boring and a lot more grounding than fantasies they can find elsewhere. Honestly, leaving curiosity unsatisfied (especially when done as clumsily as the article currently does) is more dangerous than giving them the boring truth. -- Deodar 03:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
See: Why pretending there is no lobby isn't productive. Feel free to remove this comment, its just a notice. -- Deodar 03:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Fwiw, IMO "Jewish Lobby" is a slur no matter the intention of the user. Those who use the term in ignorance or otherwise without bad intent should nevertheless be informed that the term itself is derogatory, and they should be encouraged to adopt alternative phraseology. Dasondas 20:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I'm here off of the Pharyngula atheist/biology blog. We're having an argument about whether Dawkins' mention of the Jewish lobby is antisemitic. Other guy cited the main article, I've cited this talk.
Let me reiterate what I said there: a number of the organizations compromising the informal Jewish lobby have Jewish right in their name, Israel is an avowedly Jewish state, and the people it advocates on behalf of are generally Jewish. It's Orwellian, strange and clumsy to say that the term "Jewish" alone, just because it's next to "lobby", has become a slur, even though most of the group's component parts wear the label proudly. You really should consider that, although it might be a favorite of antisemites, it's still not a slur in and of itself any more than "Jewish" is in and of itself.
That way, in the future, when people want to argue about the meaning of what biologists have said about the internal politics of foreign countries' lobbies, the immediate Wikipedia citation can at least reflect that there's at least serious dispute about whether the term is a slur in and of itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.29.37.227 ( talk) 19:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I created a dab page and listed two meanings so far. I have removed non-conspiratorial relevant links from this page since it is now clearly focused on one specific usage. I have also added to the article Israel lobby in the United States a "for X, see Y" template to this page. Jayjg said there are other meanings that the dab page is probably the easiest way to go. What do you think? -- Deodar 04:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Why must he continue to do such things? Kiyosaki 05:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone who knows more about this topic should expand the history section. I’ve been trying to find the origin of the conspiracy theory without much luck. Racist people don’t seem to make this allegation against any other group, so I was wondering if the conspiracy theory is based on some point in history where Jewish people did control a disproportional high number of banks or media providers. Thanks, -- Arctic Gnome 02:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Not that I particularly care, but "some point in history"? jews make up 1% of the US pop and control 85% of the fim studios, I wonder what absolute domination of the mass media could be used for? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.203.230.213 ( talk • contribs)
It seems that, much like anti-globalization and antisemitism, a great deal of anti-Semitic feelings are related to anti-capitalism. Many of the people that have these beliefs are obviously socialistic and/or left-leaning in political orientation (which includes many Jews, by the way), asserting that some Jews use their "traditional business acumen" and "shrewdness" to "dominate" and/or "control" key industries, in the meanwhile eliminating all competitors; this is often in contrast to those on The Right that have anti-Semitic beliefs that are racial ( Racial antisemitism) and/or religious ( Anti-Judaism) in orientation. However, even Nazism (often associated with the Far Right) was technically called the 'National Socialist German Workers Party,' (the key words there being 'Socialist' and 'Workers,' both associated with anti-capitalism), and if you read around you'll find that many of the Nazi leaders expressed quite a bit of anti-capitalist sentiment in relation to Jews, especially in their more personal writings. Indeed, one of the first thing that the Nazis did when they came to power was to organize mass-boycotts of Jewish-owned businesses (especially dept. stores, newspapers, and various banks), which eventually decimated the German-Jewish community economically and caused many of them to emigrate within a few months or years.
This is not only the case in modern times with the so-called " New antisemitism" (which is strongly associated with the more socialistic Left), but was also found in the past where many prominent Communists/socialists were anti-capitalist AND anti-Semitic at the same time. Stalin cracked down on Jews in the USSR post-WWII, citing that they [paraphrasing] "still have too much control in business and government." This also includes many lower-tier Jews in the former USSR and Eastern bloc, along with Karl Marx in his essay On the Jewish Question. Many of these Communist/socialist Jews went so far as to entirely renounce Judaism (and all religion), and became radical anti-Semites (or Self-hating Jews, take your pick) in their own right -- for example, Mátyás Rákosi and Ernő Gerő of Hungary were both ethnic Jews and were anti-Semitic, along with many other Jews in the former USSR and Eastern bloc.
Also, amongst non-Jews these days, it is commonly said that "the Jews own/run/control everything" (anti-capitalist & anti-Semitic) or that "Jews control the media" (the media is also a business, at base -- especially Hollywood), or that in certain industries non-Jews are no longer able to compete anymore because "Jews already own everything" or that "the Jews have entirely cornered certain markets" (competition is an important element in free-market capitalism; in fact, it is key to the whole system). The increasing numbers of mergers and acquisitions in recent times (as the world has become more globalized), especially when it comes to media companies, seems to back-up a few of these theories (see the Viacom table I've added below as only one example of how "mergers and acquisitions" have affected the marketplace; and remember this is only a single example). It is also well known that Jews have been highly successful in the banking/financial sectors and are VERY overrepresented in these fields (the " Shylock stereotype"), epitomized most by Wall Street (based in New York City), along with all of the banks that are headquartered there: it is well known that many of the top directors, boards, and CEOs of these banks and other major financial companies/corporations are of Jewish ethnic origin (see List of Jewish American businesspeople, though this is only a fraction), even if they no longer practice Judaism and despite the fact that they are only approx. 2.5% of the U.S. population. Thus, I think that Anti-capitalism and antisemitism would make a good article, as more than a few anti-capitalists often harbor anti-Semitic beliefs as well (both in the past and the present). Anyone have more ideas, opinions, or thoughts on this subject? Would anyone like to start an article on this topic? -- 172.128.120.24 18:43, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This statement or versions of it have been added and remove from the article for a while:
Is there a way to handle this so that a stable solution can be found that everyone agrees with? Maybe the disambiguation line at the top of the article could be modified to suggest that the user may be looking for the "Israel lobby" entry directly -- the Jewish lobby (disambiguation) article is mostly a duplicate of the Israel lobby page anyhow. What do ya'll think? -- 64.230.127.30 04:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
putting the article under the heading anti semitism is NPOV and clearly aimed at predjudicing its future direction
I've put in the too few viewpoints tags. Further up the talk page is it asserted that "The term is used by many groups all over the world to refer to many things". So let's have them in the article. Catchpole 09:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I've moved the following sentence to Talk:
However, the term "Jewish lobby" is also used to refer to an Israel lobby in mainstream newspapers in America [6] [7], Israel [8] and Britain [9].
The item violates a number of fundamental policies and guidelines. To begin with, it's original research; that is,
The statement has clearly been put there to counter the sourced claim that the term's use is antisemitic, yet this counter-argument is sourced to no-one.
Next, it also violates WP:NEO:
The sources used in this article must discuss the term "Jewish lobby", not merely use it. Jayjg (talk) 17:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
How can the sentence "The expression is regarded as anti-semitic slur." be attributed to Tariq Ramadans article? Seems like stretching the sources here. In the referenced article he mentiones the expression once and though he is critical of the conspiracy theories about the powerful jews, I can not really find any evidence that he regards the expression (per se) as slur. I´ve just browsed it and am not a native english speaker, but please help me understand... Maybe sources from both "sides" should be placed under the same scrutiny? pertn 20:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Catchpole has again inserted the following sentence:
The Economist has used the term American-Jewish lobby to refer to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. [10]
The article in question uses the term "American-Jewish lobby" in a headline, and then describes AIPAC as "the lobby" in the article. Exactly what it the point being made here? How is this relevant to this article? I must remind Catchpole that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Jayjg (talk) 21:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Pertn restored the tags stating: "Seriously Jayjg, even you don't think this article covers all relevant views and is NPOV". Both he and I have asked for cites stating that the term is used in a non-antisemitic way (or whatever way you guys are arguing that it's used). None have been forthcoming and the supposed examples that were given were, a) OR and b) dubious because it was a different phrase which referred to a Jewish lobby group, not the Jewish lobby. There is no legitimate reason to keep the tags. If proper cites are produced, we still don't need them, because then we'll just incorporate them. <<-armon->> 09:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Another rv: Pertn, please list what you think the outstanding issues are. <<-armon->> 09:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
This article should not go under the heading 'antisemitism.' The allegation of an inordinately influential pro Israel lobby is not antisemitic. 71.179.117.2 02:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
please consider adding this link to references:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=11&ItemID=9999 it is a N. Chomsky article about the "Israel lobby", a somewhat different concept from Jewish lobby
(i am new to editing and don't want to do it myself)
Bartletts article (quite good actually) is available online here: http://newint.org/features/2004/10/01/conspiracism/ I am not sure how to add it. pertn 11:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I recently wrote this message to Jpgordon after he reverted my edit which talked about a Jewish Lobby exerting too much influence in the U.S. (I referenced it with an IHR website), he told me to write it on the talk, so here it is: Hi, you say we don't site "Holocaust denial websites", but IHR doesn't deny the Holocaust. IHR says that any serious scholar wouldn't deny the Holocaust, but that they do try to historically review our standard view of the holocaust and present possible exaggerations of it. Anyone who says the Holocaust couldn't be exaggerated at least somewhat in our modern view of history isn't being NPOV because there are two sides to every story. In this case the sides are that the atrocities of the Holocaust are played down and were actually far worse, or the atrocities of the Holocaust have been exaggerated and were actually not as bad. To not include either of these sides is to not be NPOV, and Wikipedia is all about NPOV, so I would ask that you consider reverting your edits on the Jewish lobby article. There are two sides to that article, and what I have added helps to present both sides. Thank you, Scifiintel 15:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC) What do you people think, should we add stuff which I believe presents the other side of this article? Thanks, Scifiintel 15:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Big edit push today to characterize talking about a "Jewish lobby" as antisemitism. Rolled back a few edits. If that argument is going to go anywhere, it needs more supporting citations from reliable sources. -- John Nagle 06:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
We had a quote farm of somewhat disorganized quotes, and I've put them under country sections. We have US and UK sections now. There are indications in [12] that a USSR section might be useful, but I'm not sure how to write that. -- John Nagle 16:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we remove op-eds as not reliable. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 23:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Please refrain from deleting edits of other people who just wish to present the whole story, in its complexity. If no consensus can be reached on specific subjects, it is a must to present all opinions in a balanced manner.-- Mazarin07 10:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Numerous cited scholars and researchers have documented that "Jewish lobby" is a term used to promote or reinforce antisemitic stereotypes. Whether or not you believe that the term is always used this way, there can be no question it often, or at least sometimes, is. So the template needs to be there.
Nobody disputes that there are Jewish (as well as Catholic, Lutheran, etc.) advocacy groups that seek to influence policy through "lobbying." This is a perfectly legitimate political activity, regulated by a number of laws and rules. But the term "Jewish lobby" is - as has been documented - used to imply that Jewish organizations exercise an inordinate, inappropriate, and clandestine influence on US policy, even to the detriment of American interests. It is hard to find examples of the term being used in any other way in any of the literature. To illustrate: you'd be hard pressed to find the many Jewish philanthropic organizations listed as part of the "Jewish lobby," and whenever you find the term "lobby" used for other groups, (e.g., "Big Tobacco Lobby") it has a similar negative connotation.
So while one should acknowledge the existence of Jewish advocacy organizations, which the article does, it would be misleading to represent the notion that the term "Jewish lobby" is used as a neutral synonym for "Jewish advocacy organizations." It is of course a legitimate question how much influence Jewish organizations have, but that is covered in the article. In other words, this article - based on its title - is about that question: who raises it, why, what effect does it have, what are the various answers. -- Leifern 11:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that labelling the Jewish lobby as a mere conspiracy theory cannot be justified. Of course, there is also this aspect related to the subject, but the Wikipedia article shall present all facets of the issue. The presence of Antisemitism template is an expression of recognizing the overwhelming importance of the conspiracy theory, so it must be removed. IMHO the inclusion into the Category:Antisemitism can remain in place.-- Mazarin07 16:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I've tried for a more neutral first paragraph, and have added a "controversy" section, while leaving the "antisemitism" box. This needs a look by some neutral parties. I'd appreciate comments from experienced editors who edit non-Israel related subjects. Thanks. -- John Nagle 03:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Nagle, you have again reverted in the phrase "The existence of a Jewish lobby is denied in some circles." Of course this unsourced POV assumes that there is a "Jewish lobby", which "some circles deny"; I suppose like "some circles" deny the Holocaust, or that the earth is a sphere. In any event, please propose changes here first, rather than edit-warring in the usual POV. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 03:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
We're probably going to have to go to dispute resolution to deal with the problem. -- John Nagle 07:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I just read through this whole talk page and the article remains messy and POV. It seems absurd that even references to "Jewish lobbies" where Jews lobby together on issues like anti-Semitic discriminatory laws against Jews or whatever would NOT be covered in such an article. In fact, making it anti-Semitic to use the phrases makes people afraid to SUPPORT such lobbying, marginalizing and ostracizing Jews from larger society, certainly not the goal of those who try to narrow the definition.
Maybe [we can discuss other] uses of the phrase, not to mention the non-anti-Semitic uses mentioned above. Also, then it would be necessary to get rid of the Jewish lobby (disambiguation) page. I'm trying to focus on other subjects, but I wish SOMEONE would just go back in there and make this a NON-POV article. Carol Moore 03:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC) User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc
The recent revert war just proves again that this article is extremely tainted with POV. Luckily, I have found SEVERAL sources that talk about the use of the word and note that the ANTI-semitic uses are not necessarily the dominant ones. Anyone who is a neutral WIKI editor and not promoting an agenda can see that an internet search shows that out of the top 100 uses less than half are anti-semitic and most are just synonyms for the Israel Lobby. Yet we are constantly bullied into allowing the minor useage to be the ONLY useage. What's next? Make any use of "Israel Lobby" anti-semitic? Read thoroughly the talk entries above. Carol Moore 01:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC) User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc
Regretfully, I've had to step in here again to clean up a page that was rapidly filling up with original research, and violations of WP:NEO. Please review [WP:NOR]] thoroughly: You can't use primary sources to try to build a thesis regarding the use of this term; instead, you must use secondary sources which discuss this term. As a result of this failure, most of the article violated WP:NEO:
To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term—not books and papers that use the term.
I've had to remove the original research factoids that listed usages of this neologism, in favor of sources which actually discuss the use of the term. Please find sources that actually discuss the use of the term, not simply use it - I'm going to have to ruthlessly remove any sources which are mere example of the terms usage, rather than discussions of the term, per WP:NOR and WP:NEO. And if you want to POV an article about the "Israel lobby", the rather horrifyingly poorly written article on the subject is thataway. Jayjg (talk) 06:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
If WP:NEO doesn't recognize that some PHRASES used for a number of years may not ever have been described in a neutral (as opposed to partisan) dictionary or encyclopedia, for whatever reason, then WP:NEO has to be changed to reflect that fact. Carol Moore 04:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
It took about 1/2 hour to find these most recent discussions ABOUT the term. I'm sure a more thorough search could come up with lots more.
The second commandment is: “Get organized and stay organized.” The post-holocaust Jew must belong to and support a whole range of organizations. There is a Jewish lobby. Why shouldn’t there be! There is a gun lobby, an oil lobby, and an Arab lobby. This is America. Lobbying is a right and a political privilege. There are organizations devoted to anti-defamation, education, and support of the State of Israel. There ought to be, and Jews must be active in these organizations.
Is there a "Jewish Lobby" in the United States? Of course there is, just as there are highly effective lobbies for gun ownership, farmers and for ridding Cuba of communism: How else is it that America persists in its spiteful and futile persecution of Fidel Castro's unlovely but unimportant regime? The answer is the critical Cuban-American vote in the electorally vital Florida.
Israel and the Left, Philip Green, April 17, 2003 (May 5, 2003 issue)
At the same time, it is not anti-Semitic to say, as Moran perhaps intended to say and as is often said on the left, that "the Jewish lobby is one of the biggest obstacles to a rational American Middle East policy." That statement is arguable, and hyperbolic, but at the same time perfectly reasonable in its broad outline--reasonable judgments are often arguable or hyperbolic. The main point is that there undeniably is a pro-Israel lobby in Washington composed in great part of the representatives of several major Jewish organizations, and if those organizations had their way American policy would always tilt unequivocally toward Israel: just as if the Irish political elite in Massachusetts had had their way policy would for many years have tilted toward Irish Republicanism; or would have tilted toward Mussolini in the 1930s if the major Italian-American organizations had had their way. As Michael Kinsley pointed out in Slate, one of the strongest claims ever made for the power of this lobby can be found on the website of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).
What sets Petras’ work apart, first off, is his dropping or blurring of distinctions. The terms “Jewish lobby,” “Israel lobby” and “Zionist lobby” are used interchangeably. Others, at least on the Left, have worked to mark the important distinction between Jews, as Jews, regardless of their differing ideologies, and those supporters of Israel, Jew and non-Jew alike, who actively promote and support Israel’s racist and expansionist practices. Petras facilely drops that distinction. (In an apparent attempt to deflect criticism, he states that he is justified in using the term “Jewish lobby” since that is what the Israelis use when discussing political support in the United States — as if adopting the Zionist movement’s cynical appropriation of all things Jewish serves any progressive purpose.)
There is No “Israel Lobby” By Kim Petersen 04/26/06
Since the “Israel Lobby” does not represent “Arab-Israeli” interests, and since it represents Jewish interests worldwide, the label “Jewish lobby” (there is no need to capitalize the “l”) would be much more accurate. Also, “Zionist lobby” would seem to be less accurate because the lobby’s goals are not limited to Zionism but include policies dedicated to the interests of certain Jewish “elites.” So long as it is not implied that all Jews (since modern Jews never formed a coherent ethnic or national group, but are peoples who have shared somewhat the same religion, how can one address them as a homogenous group? For instance, if a Ukrainian Jew renounces Judaism and declares atheism, then why should he be treated as Jew that he is no longer?) are included as lobby members, then there is no reason not to label the “Jewish lobby” for what it is. Most people would not, after all, object to the label “Catholic lobby” or “Arab lobby,” so why should the label “Jewish lobby” be controversial?
Regarding the labeling, Blum responds, “I used ‘Israel Lobby’ because that’s what the authors of the report I referred to used. And the purpose of the lobby is to help Israel, not Jews per se.”
With all due respect to the incisive anti-imperialist Blum, he is remarkably off base when he says: “the purpose of the lobby is to help Israel.” Since, as stated, approximately one-fifth of “Israelis” are Arabs, and since the lobby has no intention of helping them whatsoever, the purpose as stated by Blum is, intentionally or not, fallacious. To be factually accurate, one should state that the intention is to help the “Jews of Israel” and not “Israel” per se. Blum, however, does see merit in changing the designation of the “Israel lobby.”
Carol Moore 21:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
I remain skeptical of the wiki-lawyering above. The bottom line remains that in the real world the word is used MORE as a synonym for Israel Lobby or for miscellaneous non-Israel related Jewish-oriented lobbying (like making it illegal to deny the Holocaust or getting more police money to defend synagogues from vandals). If in Wikipedia-weird world it is allowed only the one meaning of a bigoted use, that shows the weakness of wikipedia. However, the search for articles - written or yet to be written - which clarify this issue shall continue. Carol Moore 05:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
I'll tell you after I restudy the issue. Now that I have read even more carefully WP:NPOV much more carefully and done the tutuorial. Carol Moore 05:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Does WP:OR Trump WP:NPOV?? That's the question I asked here: Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#Does_WP:OR_Trump_WP:NPOV.3F.3F Hopefully it will engender an enlightening discussion. Carol Moore 05:59, 8 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Relevant quotes from Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial
Some examples of how editors may unwittingly or deliberately present a subject in an unfair way:
- Biased or selective representation of sources, eg:
o Explaining why evidence supports one view, but omitting such explanation in support of alternative views. o Making one opinion look superior by omitting strong and citable points against it, comparing it instead with low quality arguments for other POVs (strawman tactics). o Not allowing one view to "speak for itself", or refactoring its "world-view" into the words of its detractors.
- Editing as if one given opinion is "right" and therefore other opinions have little substance:
o Entirely omitting significant citable information in support of a minority view, with the argument that it is claimed to be not credible. o Ignoring or deleting significant views, research or information from notable sources that would usually be considered credible and verifiable in Wikipedia terms (this could be done on spurious grounds). o Concealing relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to fairly judge their value.
Thus, verifiability, proper citation and neutral phrasing are necessary but not sufficient to ensure NPOV. It is important that the various views and the subject as a whole are presented in a balanced manner and that each is summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability.
Finally, it recommends if there is a problem like those described above a template should be added UNTIL all editors agree the problem has been resolved. So I'm adding.
This article may be
unbalanced toward certain viewpoints. |
Carol Moore 06:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Carol Moore 04:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
With all these messages last few days, just found this one. I am going to look back through the Green article and see if I missed anything. Plus I have some other leads.
Meanwhile, please, read and think about the WP:NPOV tutorial quoted more fully above on:
And especially look over: Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view
On certain topics, there is naturally less "expertise" and scientific thinking, and more "opinion". This is especially the case of topics such as morals or religion, based on faith, as well as politics.
We should then list all points of views, according to their importance, and, if possible, be precise as to who holds them. There exist some cases where the vast majority of political parties, politicians and journalists hold a certain opinion, while a sizeable minority do not: both views should be stated.
Doesn't it say LIST??? - it doesn't say making such a list is WP:OR or that a commonly used phrase only can be listed if some reliable source explicitly defines that very very specific use of the word. The whole tenor of the section is towards inclusion of important information - not exclusion on WP:POV grounds.
As long there remain editors contending - as many have on this talk page in the past and one or two do now -- that this article excludes the obvious fact that Jewish groups and the mainstream press use the phrase Jewish Lobby in non-antisemitic ways, and excludes a couple such examples, then this article is excluding information in a WP:POV fashion and that "LIMITED" template belongs front and center.
And of course the more time I have to spend explaining this, the less time I have to work on a) finding such a definition anyway and b) improving the article. Once I finish taking my break from editing the article as recommended by wikipedia when there is a dispute. Maybe you all should take some time off too. Meanwhile the "LIMITED" template should remain. It should have been here for the last couple years. Carol Moore 07:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
See response ( User:Armon) at Carol Moore 17:10, 11 January 2008 below Carol Moore CarolMooreDC talk
Added a new section, "Jewish lobby" vs. "Israel lobby", with cites from sources that compare and contrast the terms. Moved quotes relevant to that subject to that paragraph. This directly addresses the controversial issue - are "Jewish lobby" and "Israel lobby" the same thing, or what? A number of the cited sources speak to that specific issue, so it makes sense to put them together. Comments? -- John Nagle ( talk) 22:59, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
As I just wrote above at the bottom of Talk:Jewish_lobby#A_review_of_policies_and_guidelines.2C_particularly_WP:NPOV, I believe that Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view statements undermine this theory that there must be a quote defining each and every use of a term ever used to express a political position:
On certain topics, there is naturally less "expertise" and scientific thinking, and more "opinion". This is especially the case of topics such as morals or religion, based on faith, as well as politics.
We should then list all points of views, according to their importance, and, if possible, be precise as to who holds them. There exist some cases where the vast majority of political parties, politicians and journalists hold a certain opinion, while a sizeable minority do not: both views should be stated.
Again I believe it authorizes listing views without some outside source defining every term = though I'll keep looking for a good definition anyway. Meanwhile, the article remains "LIMITED" by excluding nonantisemitic uses -- calling them "naive" would be very WP:POV. Also, as two quotes I listed showed, Jewish lobby obviously IS used as a positive phrase. And even as a critic of Israel I support the right of any ethnic, religious group to lobby, especially if it is lobbying against laws that might be enforced against it domestically. Like if David Duke or Ann Coulter got elected president. I mean what could antisemites want more than to discourage and prevent Jews from proclaiming their right to lobby as organized Jewish groups??? Carol Moore 07:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Regarding the less controversial issues:
This Article Link was a response to John Nagle's question above: Does "Jewish lobby" mean something else outside the US? Just something he could read and decide if it answered his other questions. This would be a more relevant quote, though whole article about Jewish Organizations doing lobbying. "Harris: There are some Jewish organizations who have thought about going in and creating, I quote a `lobby,' or trying to bring American political tactics, importing them to Brussels.'" Carol Moore 05:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Improved wording, per WP:WEASEL: "If a statement is true without weasel words, remove them." -- John Nagle ( talk) 05:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
If the existing cites aren't satisfactory, we can also add this one: [20]
As is well-known, the Procotols was a forged document written in Russia in 1897, alleging that a worldwide Jewish conspiracy existed. This document attempted to explain a seeming contradiction: Jews were (are) prominent both in capitalist and in socialist/communist circles: the ‘explanation’ was that both were shams: capitalist and communist Jews were not really at odds, as it might seem. They were in fact united (secretly) in a bid for world domination. Although this conspiracy theory lay at the heart of Nazism it is also widespread outside neo-fascist groupings. Many of these are right-wing/neo-Nazi (e.g. Pamyat in Russia) but the Protocols have had some influence on movements with some claim to progressive credentials. The Protocols have also had some influence elsewhere, so that Eyptian and Syrian state-sponsored TV serials have produced soaps which dramatise the allegations of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Mohamed, 2002; Kaba and Tubiana, 2002).
That some type of shadowy Jewish conspiracy exists is commonsense, taken-for-granted element in many quarters: e.g. rumours that the predominance of neo-conservatives in the USA is a ‘Jewish conspiracy’ (Greenspan, 2003; Berlet, 2004; Interview, 2004 ). Perhaps even more common is a vague suspicion that such a conspiracy might exist but that it is impolite to articulate this. A contemporary form of this fear is the phrase ‘the Jewish lobby’ without mentioning other ‘lobbies’ or differentiating Jews who have different political positions on a number of questions, including Israel and Palestine. <<-armon->> ( talk) 00:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Carol Moore 16:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Ok, now I see it. But this is using the footnotes for absurd POV pushing that would not be allowed in the text. I deleted it on those grounds - as well as two other POV pushing quote farmy quotes in references. If it's so important, make it part of the discussion. I don't see other articles that have paragraphs of quotes in the references. Carol Moore 06:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
John, I notice you keep adding the sentence The term " Israel lobby" is preferred by AIPAC, which refers to itself as "America's Pro-Israel Lobby". in various forms. From what I can see the AIPAC page doesn't mention the term "Jewish lobby", nor does it anywhere state that it prefers the term "Israel lobby" to "Jewish lobby". Please be mindful of the original research policy. If you can find a source that that discusses the term "Jewish lobby" in the context of AIPAC, that's fine, but so far I haven't seen one. Jayjg (talk) 04:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Jayjg writes towards end of : Talk:Jewish_lobby#Reliable_Sources_About_Non-Bigoted_Uses_of_Term_.E2.80.9CJewish_Lobby.E2.80.9D: The fifth source does discuss the term "Jewish lobby", but rather unfortunately comes from another unreliable source and non-notable website, "Dissident Voice" - see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dissident_Voice_(third_nomination) for detail as to why this is so.
Why was article deleted? No Sources. WP:ATT The only google news sources were 13 references to authors who write for it on one specific day. No report on google web searches. And based on lack of any sources a couple people claimed it wasn’t “notable enough.”
What reference on Jewish Lobby has an article that as a template saying This article does not cite any references or sources. - could it be Jewish Virtual Library?? So what proof is there that it is noteable enough? (Just to prove the point I just put a notability template on it.) Do we see a double standard here?? Should I call for deletion of the article to get someone to improve it??
And let’s not even start on the WP:POV of the source. The existing (non-sourced) wiki article calls it: “The Jewish Virtual Library is an online encyclopedia published by the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE), notable for its strong pro-Israel views.”
There is not a significant difference in the number of references to Jewish Virtual Library on Google news and web compared to Dissident Voice, and I’m sure sufficient quality quotes about both topics could be found.
1/11/2008: Google news search
1/11/2008: Google web search
Should I quickly put together a WELL SOURCED article on DissidentVoice.Org since Sourcing WAS the only real issue? Why not??? How can I find the original article cause I know they keep deleted articles somewhere on wikipedia? Thanks. Carol Moore 18:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Carol Moore 00:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
First and only introductory sentence: This article is about the relationship between Islam and antisemitism. The nature and extent of antisemitism in Islam is a hotly-debated issue in contemporary Middle East politics.
Section 1: Antisemitism in the context of Islam
First sentence: Scholars describe and analyze antisemitism within the context of Islam in different ways, depending partly on how they define antisemitism. For example:
Then it LISTS different views. That is how THIS article should be structured. The "phrase" Jewish Lobby is just as controversial as the "concept" Islam and antisemtism (as this talk page has shown for a couple of years) and there is no substantive reason they should be treated differently. Carol Moore 09:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
I mentioned this above but evidently should have explicitly quoted it (emphasis added):
Note that the templates that can be used for NPOV concerns generally suppose that the suspected NPOV problem is explained on the article's or category's talk page. When all NPOV-related issues detailed on the talk page have been handled, the template should be removed from the article or category page. In most cases, however, the least cumbersome way of handling NPOV concerns would be to improve the article or the category description, so that it is no longer POV.
I am working on improvements to make this an NPOV article, but it doesn't help that those who constantly revert everything on WP:OR refuse to comment on my last few posts explaining why this article remains POV and explaining how to make it NPOV. I'd like to avoid revert edit wars on the article itself by coming to an understanding here first the deals with POV concerns expressed by a majority of editors over the last couple year. Constantly reverting that template - and ignoring my last two posts - makes me think there is no desire for real discussion, not to mention understanding. Carol Moore 16:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Thanks. I can see that violating clearly stated Wikipedia policy is no problem with some people, as is now being reviewed elsewhere. Finishing up one other wiki project today and then spending the rest of the day on an important personal blog entry. Then I'll go find other discussions of James Petras' fascinating discussion of the use of the term "Jewish Lobby" so that I don't have to put back up the deleted Dissident Voice article right away per Talk:Jewish_lobby#WP:V_-_comparing_Jewish_Virtual_Library_and_Dissident_Voice. PS: also note I like to put a draft of the whole new article right here on the talk page so no one can claim I didn't seek consensus. So when I add my changes it will be a whole article, not piece meal. Carol Moore 18:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
As I look for more references, I'm seeing more uses of the term by leaders of Jewish organizations. I've cited uses by the editor of The Forward, the head lobbyist from AIPAC, and the head of a Jewish organization in France. Maybe we need to go with an intro like that from Queer: "Its usage is considered controversial and underwent substantial changes over the course of the 20th Century with some LGBT re-claiming the term as a means of self-empowerment. The term is still considered by some to be offensive and derisive, and by others as a re-appropriated term used to describe a sexual orientation and/or gender identity or gender expression that does not conform to heteronormative society." -- John Nagle ( talk) 17:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
More importantly as I have said a couple times above, removing this is direct violation of policy per: WP:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view which says:
Carol Moore 01:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
This is not freedom of speech rights, this is wikipedia POLICY. Please see WP:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view which says: "On certain topics, there is naturally less "expertise" and scientific thinking, and more "opinion". This is especially the case of topics such as morals or religion, based on faith, as well as politics. We should then list all points of views, according to their importance, and, if possible, be precise as to who holds them...." Also my changes to Goldberg quote make it infinitely more relevant to this article. Carol Moore 04:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
User:Nagle, you keep inserting this original research into the article:
AIPAC's former head lobbyist, Michael Bloomfield, in his article "Myths and facts about the Jewish lobby" [1], provides an insider's view of the lobby's structure, influence, and agenda. On the relationship between U.S. Jewish organizations and AIPAC, he writes "Mainstream Jewish organizations defer to AIPAC, even when they disagree, because they fear being labeled soft on Israel."
The insertion is unacceptable for a number of reasons.
It is apparent that you are simply doing a google search for +"Jewish lobby" +AIPAC, and then choosing whichever uses of the term best match your argument/speculation that the Jewish lobby... exists. Jayjg (talk) 03:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Please see this Policy WP:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view which says: "On certain topics, there is naturally less "expertise" and scientific thinking, and more "opinion". This is especially the case of topics such as morals or religion, based on faith, as well as politics. We should then list all points of views, according to their importance, and, if possible, be precise as to who holds them...." Carol Moore 04:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
User:Nagle, you keep inserting this quote into the article: The Economist writes of the "American-Jewish lobby": "These are both the best of times and the worst of times for the American-Jewish lobby. This week saw yet another reminder of the awesome power of “the lobby”. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) brought more than 6,000 activists to Washington for its annual policy conference. And they proceeded to live up to their critics' darkest fears." [2]
The insertion is unacceptable for a number of reasons.
It is apparent that you are simply doing a google search for +"Jewish lobby" +AIPAC, and then choosing whichever uses of the term best match your argument/speculation that the Jewish lobby... exists. Jayjg (talk) 03:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Carol Moore 04:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC) User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc
Obviously Mr. Nagle's additions are cover under this Policy WP:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view which says: "On certain topics, there is naturally less "expertise" and scientific thinking, and more "opinion". This is especially the case of topics such as morals or religion, based on faith, as well as politics. We should then list all points of views, according to their importance, and, if possible, be precise as to who holds them...." Carol Moore 04:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
OK. Now that we've dealt with the "neologism" issue, let's move on to the "original research" issue. For reference, look at this version of the article, which has most of the items recently deleted as "original research".
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help))Now that's from The Economist, one of the more prestigious political journals in the world, and one with a good reputation for neutrality. It's a direct quote; there's no original text at all other than a very brief introduction to the quote. The article both uses the exact phrase "Jewish lobby" and is about the Jewish lobby.
Armon ( talk · contribs) deleted this quote [28] with the edit comment "(rm OR yet again, the cite has to be ABOUT the term)". He's echoing Jayjg ( talk · contribs), who previously deleted the same quote. [29].
That's a quote from an article by AIPAC's former head lobbyist, writing about the Jewish lobby. So that's a direct quote from a major player in Washington. One could argue over how much of the article should be included, of course. This was deleted by Armon ( talk · contribs) as part of the same edit.
So that's what's being deleted as "original research". Nothing there could possibly violate the sections of WP:OR quoted above. As for "neutral point of view" issues, arguably Bloomfield, the AIPAC lobbyist, isn't neutral, but I don't think that's what Armon ( talk · contribs) is unhappy about.
The real issue here is the mislabeling, as "original research", quotes which some editors would prefer be forgotten.
-- John Nagle ( talk) 06:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I just went back to count the edits; if we count sides, there's at least 6RR in the last 24 hrs.
Though no individual appears to have committed a 4RR blockable breach, the combination of behavior on both sides constitutes an edit war. The article is now full protected for 24 hours from now to attempt to slow down and defuse the edit war and encourage discussion here on the article talk page.
Georgewilliamherbert ( talk) 04:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
What I see is an opening statement that links the term Jewish Lobby with antisemitism then it follows with a number of people of questionable notability defining the term. This article should be merged with Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 15:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
First, User:Georgewilliamherbert says above: While the mere existence and usage of the term, and what it means, are well documented, adding more instances of its usage doesn't add anything important or interesting to the article and isn't encyclopedic content per se. Seems to me this applies to the ever multiplying quote farm of those saying it ALWAYS means something antisemitic. Otherwise his general comments about our interpretations unclear but his specific answers to my questions (in the middle of "Quotes from the Economist") are more clear and I do not necessarily disagree with them, though I feel we'd have debate over the interpretation of them.
Meanwhile User:Armon asks John Nagle: find a cite for your opinions. So below are some quotes John might find of use for the approach he is using, which overlaps with mine, I think(?). They are not a presentation of quotes about the use of the term which I'll get around to finishing off with defenses for their use at some point; bills are due and all that and I don't get paid for doing wiki stuff. Note: Bold emphasis added below.
The Jewish United Fund/Jewish Federation of Metropolitan Chicago http://www.juf.org/news/local.aspx?id=15862 I'm a proud member of 'the Jewish lobby' By Eve Samborn
Nothing I advocated for recently in Washington, as part of my trip with JUF's Jewish Community Relations Council, was particularly controversial. World peace did not hinge on my ability to communicate effectively with members of Congress. I was told repeatedly that what I said did not tip the balance, lest I feel burdened by fear of failure. Then why was it so important that I go? The Jewish community is fortunate to enjoy widespread support throughout Capitol Hill. It seems that most of our agenda for the day will pass easily, and is especially popular with members of the Illinois Congressional delegation. Ignoring the concerns of the Jewish community is a political risk that few members of Congress, on either side of the aisle, feel is worth taking. This has not always been the case.... When I told him about the trip, a non-Jewish friend asked jokingly, "So you're part of the Jewish lobby now, huh?" "Yes," I replied slowly, "I guess I am." That is a statement I know I can be proud of.
http://zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2007/02/liberal-now-means-anti-zionist.html Thursday, February 1, 2007 'Liberal' now means anti-Zionist
Mr. Judt, whose views on Israel and the American Jewish lobby have frequently drawn fire, is chastised for what Mr. Rosenfeld calls "a series of increasingly bitter articles" that have "called Israel everything from arrogant, aggressive, anachronistic, and infantile to dysfunctional, immoral, and a primary cause of present-day anti-Semitism." (NOTE: no quotation to show that they are not using the phrase is straight forward descriptive way.)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3091240,00.html Mr. Sharon goes to Washington, Opinion in Ynetnews, March 27 2005 Nahum Barnea and Shimon Shiffer
No Jewish lobby has more political power than the 100,000-strong AIPAC organization. This power is one of Israel’s greatest global assets.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1177251151218&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter Apr. 23, 2007 Coming together, falling apart SHIRA TEGER , THE JERUSALEM POST
The more that young Soviet Jews risked their lives and their freedom to challenge Soviet policy, the more young American Jews were emboldened to become more politically Jewish in their behavior. There was this reciprocal relationship of empowerment. What we know today as the Jewish lobby largely owes its empowerment to the Six Day War."
http://www.forward.com/articles/11986/ The Jewish Lobby Israel Needs Akiva Eldar | Wed. Nov 07, 2007 (Note: used only in the headline, in descriptive not pejorative manner)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/912695.html Last update - 22:24 11/12/2007 U.S. Jews are losing their bond to Israel By Haaretz Staff and Channel 10 October 14, 2007.
But despite the ever present strength of the Jewish lobby in the U.S., the average age of politically involved Jews is on the rise, and young American Jews are growing less and less interested.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/900481.html 4/09/07 Border Control / The optimist from East Jerusalem By Akiva Eldar
...The Christian Arab (Safieh is also the PLO representative to the Vatican) has had to repel the wave of Islamophobia sweeping over Americans following the September 11, 2001 attacks.Not only does he have to deal with the Jewish lobby, whose influence over the centers of power in the American capital it is hard to exaggerate, he must also maneuver between the PLO-in-the-territories and the PLO abroad, between the Fatah-West Bank government and the Hamas-Gaza government...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=395916&contrassID=13 An American Jewish lobby at the European Union By Amiram Barkat
"The establishment of the institute raises another, intra-Jewish problem. After all, this is the home arena of European Judaism. People like Malcolm Hoenlein, the executive vice-chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, believe that a Jewish lobby in Brussels should be run by European Jews, and not by American Jews."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/789919.html The Gewalt agenda By Akiva Eldar
The prime minister hopes the Jewish lobby can rally a Democratic majority in the new Congress to counter any diversion from the status quo on the Palestinians.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=841010& The attack on the Jewish lobby keeps coming and coming -
...You can read a summery of Soros' criticism - and that of others - in Nathan Guttman's Forward comprehensive piece: Major critiques of Jewish lobbying were published by controversial billionaire George Soros, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist Nicholas Kristof, the respected British newsmagazine The Economist and the popular Web site Salon. The replies were furious. The New York Sun accused Kristof and Soros of spreading a "new blood libel." The American Jewish Committee's executive director, David Harris, wrote in a Jerusalem Post opinion article that Kristof had a "blind spot" and had "sanctimoniously lectured" Israel. The editor of The New Republic, Martin Peretz, renewed an attack on Soros that he began a month ago when he called the Hungarian-born Holocaust survivor a "cog in the Hitlerite wheel."....
http://www.jstandard.com/articles/3712/1/The-Jewish-lobby:-Exposed The Jewish lobby: Exposed in New Jersey Jewish Standard By Phyllis Chesler | Published 01/11/2008 |
Last week, the Wiesenthal Center took a high-minded, utterly rational, and insanely expensive full-page ad in The New York Times and in the International Herald Tribune in which it denounced "Suicide Terror." The ad calls upon the "world to act" against the "plague" of such attacks that have "murdered thousands of innocents," and it displays the photo of the late Benazir Bhutto, whose claim to innocence has been widely disputed but whose assassination, in my opinion, was utterly tragic. The ad is bravely naïve. For example, it calls upon the U.N. General Assembly to hold a "special session to deal exclusively with the scourge of suicide terror."
(Note: She seems to be “exposing” that the Jewish Lobby (which she uses in title in descriptive not pejorative manner) is not acting effectively enough on this issue.) Carol Moore 18:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
An editor's personal observations and research (e.g. finding blogs and books that use the term) are insufficient to support use of (or articles on) neologisms because this is analysis and synthesis of primary source material (which is explicitly prohibited by the original research policy).
First, I have to doubt that a 30 year old phrase is a neologism. Second, it is discouraging to add anything here when there are people whose history of edits is primarily reverts which I think look more like WP:Idontlikeit or WP:GAME than anything else. So for now I think I'll write an article about the phrase (without mentioning the Wikipedia article, of course) and get it out to thousands of people who write on the topic and see what they might be inspired to write about it all. Seems like the best use of my time. Though I'll monitor this page and see what other good quotes others come up with - and which ones they debunk. So you can list me as an editorial drop out on this topic for now. (Of course, self control is not my forte, so I'll probably throw in my two cents here from time to time.) Carol Moore 05:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Some of the cites used to support the lead sentence "The Jewish lobby is a term referring to allegations that Jews exercise undue influence in a number of areas, including politics, government, business, the media, academia, popular culture, public policy, international relations, and international finance." are questionable.
I don't intend to join this debate, but I've been following it with interest (and generally speaking, approval) and so will briefly comment.
I agree strongly with Jay and Armon on two important and related points: (1) Given the controversial nature of the phrase "Jewish lobby," the article should focus on the phrase itself, as opposed to say, competing claims about the activities and organizational influence of AIPAC and related groups. (2) In doing so, the article should carefully and rigorously distinguish between sources that merely use the phrase, and sources that discuss the phrase itself. Only the latter are appropriate.
As solid as these foundations are, it seems to me that at least two of the premises erected upon them are rickety. My caveats are as follows:
Jewish Lobby. A conglomeration of approximately thirty-four Jewish political organizations in the United States which make joint and separate efforts to lobby for their interests in the United States, as well as for the interests of the State of Israel. Among those organizations which are most actively involved in lobbying activities at federal, state, and local levels of political and governmental institutions are: the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the American Jewish Community (AJC), which was once headed by Arthur Goldberg, the former Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, and the B’nai B’rith which claims a membership of over half a million worldwide. The Jewish Lobby claims to speak for the six million Jews residing in the United States (with half of that number, or approximately three million, living in New York State and mid-Atlantic states – which exceeds the total number of Jews in the State of Israel), and it is known to be the most loyal and most generous donor to campaign expenses of public officials, regardless of nationality and religion. Political aspirants often find that Jewish constituencies are the first to embrace them and the last to abandon them, no matter how rough the going. See ARAB LOBBY, JEWISH DEFENSE LEAGUE, SADIT-BEGIN SUMMIT.
The Israelis, however, understood that the American Jewish lobby, despite its vociferous activism, did not really have the means to jeopardize Japanese sales to the American market. But one should not underestimate Japanese businessmen's perception of the Jewish lobby's economic position in the US.
[Berlin] was also sceptical about the real political influence of the Jewish lobby: he said American Catholics were better organised.(104)
At the time, he was convinced that Ben Gurion was wrong to seek to mobilise American Jewish opinion against British policy in Palestine; wrong because the Jewish lobby had little real influence; wrong because agitation would sow dissension between America and Britain.(108)
Berlin in fact became convinced that the Foreign Office was exaggerating the strength of the American Jewish lobby.(119)
Concluding suggestion.The term is controversial even among those who don't think it attributes undue influence to Jews. Walt and Mearsheimer famously avoid it because they want to stress that many members aren't Jewish, and many Jews don't support it. And Michael Geoffrey Bard write that "reference is often made to the "Jewish lobby" in an effort to describe Jewish influence, but the term is both vague and inadequate. American Jews are sometimes represented by lobbyists, but such direct efforts to influence policymakers are but a small part of the lobby's ability to influence policy." He argues that "Israeli lobby" (compare to W & M's 'Israel Lobby') "is a more accurate label than Jewish lobby, because a large proportion of the lobby is made up of non-Jews. This term also reflects the lobby's objective. The Israeli lobby can then be defined as those formal and informal actors that directly and indirectly influence American policy to support Israel."
I think what is extremely clear from the primary sources is that "Jewish lobby" was at one time a more acceptable umbrella phrase for AIPAC, the AJC, and related groups, and that it has since become more controversial, and has largely been replaced by "Israel lobby." I don't know if there's a good secondary source tracing this. At any rate, based on the reliable secondary sources we do have, my suggestion for the lede is something along the following lines: Jewish Lobby is a phrase sometimes used to refer loosely to AIPAC, the AJC, and other Jewish-American lobbying organizations. Its validity as a term is disputed by a number of commentators and on several grounds. Some argue that it attributes undue influence to Jews and is fundamentally antisemitic. Others claim that it is an inaccurate label for a political coalition that doesn't represent most American Jews and includes many non-Jews, and whose primary concern is policy towards Israel.
Best of luck to all as you work this out.-- G-Dett ( talk) 01:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I think G-Dett made some excellent suggestions, so I have reworked this document to use his suggestions (including his superior introduction) and to better organize the presentation of material to follow a logical order. I have not deleted any sentences; I have only moved them to more appropriate sections (for example much of the old introduction belonged in the Antisemitism section so I moved it there). And I moved the Antisemitism section to follow the Usage section since Usage is a more explanatory section, leading us through the uses of the term and reinforcing the Introduction.
Other than G-Dett's introduction, I also added two cited quotes from the Jerusalem Post which show its usage in a non-pejorative way to refer to AIPAC et al. I also reordered some of the paragraphs in the Usage section so the writing would follow the order of the introduction. Thank you, Jgui ( talk) 04:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
An editor's personal observations and research (e.g. finding blogs and books that use the term) are insufficient to support use of (or articles on) neologisms because this is analysis and synthesis of primary source material (which is explicitly prohibited by the original research policy).
Jgui, you don't need to address me at the beginning of every sentence. You have again included examples of the use of the term, not sources which discuss the term; and, in fact, your first insertion of Mearsheimer and Walt's use of the term is simply another example of the use of the term, and your second insertion of it is quite inaccurate; Mearsheimer and Walt claim that criticism of Israel or even reference to the Israel lobby will produce accusations of antisemitism - that has nothing to do with the term "Jewish lobby". I have again removed the WP:NOR violating material that provide examples of use of the term, and instead brought more sources that discuss the term. Jayjg (talk) 02:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Re: Raymond, his not having an article would not be an excuse for deleting his quote; if a better one by some one with a Wiki article was found, it would be an excuse for moving it down.
Re: You added "A conglomeration of approximately thirty-four" to the excerpt from the Raymond quote I chose to use, doubtless because you wanted fuller context. I believe you use the Walt/Mearsheimer quote out of context in a WP:SYNTHESIS way to prove your point that "Jewish lobby" is anti-semitic.
You take this that I quoted from the book version: anyone who merely claims that there is an Israel Lobby runs the risk of being charged with anti-Semitism, even though AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents and the Israeli media themselves refer to America’s ‘Jewish Lobby’. In effect, the lobby first boasts of its own power and frequently attacks anyone who calls attention to it.
And turn it into this inaccurate quote, still with the book as the reference:the Israeli media refer to America’s ‘Jewish Lobby’
Neither the long sentence or the short phrase really "discusses" Jewish lobby, both use it; but if one "discusses" it so does the other.
Moreover, the longer one gives NPOV context to the rest of what they have to say in that paragraph. To be clear, W/M believe that it is unfair that "AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents and the Israeli media" can use "Jewish Lobby" but others who do can be smeared. They themselves choose not to use it because they believe the "lobby is defined by its political agenda, not by religion or ethnicity." In deleting most of the first sentence and making the false claim that that only tiny phrase is "about" the Jewish Lobby but the whole sentence is not is just POV WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:SYNTHESIS and a violation of wiki policies.
I'll count my reverts and decide what to do about it. But again getting fed up with the WP:GAME and WP:Double Standard.Carol Moore 04:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
Evidence that use of "Jewish lobby" is more antisemitc than not??? Obviously there are a variety of statistical tests that could be applied to see whether NEUTRAL - CRITICAL - or ANTISEMITIC uses are most frequent. (Recognizing that there will be debate over whether many critical uses are antisemitic.) What statistical test do you suggest? I can think of a couple. Carol Moore 20:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
Which ever version ends up being the final one after dispute resolution, it should include a quote from this: Walter John Raymond, [ http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=1dtn0olA8PcC&dq=%22dictionary+of+politics%22&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=mWdU49sDHj&sig=jf98Xub08rUSP5KKMrMnEwGN6Wc The Dictionary of Politics: Selected American and Foreign Political and Legal Terms], Richmond, VA: Brunswick Publishing Corporation, 1992, 243.
The whole quote (per the above) being:
Carol Moore 00:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
Since I can see recent changes which have long been discussed on this page already have led to heated writing. Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles which encourages civil and cooperative editing. It also creates a working group that intends to much more quickly and effectively deal with dispute resolution on problems that arise in editing articles related to these topics. Thanks. Carol Moore 05:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC {talk}
This page gets harder to read. I suggest we start by archiving everything before January 2008 when recent round began. Then by end of month we'll probably be ready for a January archive. I'll do it unless someone experienced wants to do it. This is the nly notice. Carol Moore 01:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
John, in your latest edit, on top of re-inserting original research sources that use the term, rather than discuss it, you also removed a reference from Geoffrey Brahm Levey & Philip Mendes. Jews and Australian Politics, Sussex Academic Press, 2004, who discuss the term. [38] Can you explain why? Do you object to this source in some way? Jayjg (talk) 04:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
This article has been placed on a one-revert rule. Any editor who makes more than one revert (and this revert must be discussed on the talk page) in a 24-hour period will be blocked. Please edit cooperatively, and seek consensus and compromise rather than edit-war. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 21:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Questions, cc: Jewish Lobby Talk Page This is my first mediation, read the relevant pages about but didn’t see clear answers.
Carol Moore 04:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
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The term "Jewish lobby" is used by some without prejudice to refer to the Israel lobby in the United States, although it seems clear that it is not a precise term. It would be good to note this in the introductory sentence or alternatively (and I prefer this solution) we could put "For X, see Y" notes on the top of both this page and the Israel lobby in the United States in order to handle the confusion between these two terms in the standard Wikipedia way. -- Deodar 15:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that it is included in the Antisemitism collection is laughable, its purpose is to suggest that criticism of Zionism is the same antisemitism, which to any serious discourse is wholly different.
70.178.56.254 16:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I just moved this from the article to here:
The problem is that Mearsheimer and Walt do not use the term "Jewish lobby" in their paper, the author of the Washington Times article paraphrases their use of "Israel Lobby" as "Jewish lobby" and then attacks it -- it appears to be a use of the "straw man" rhetorical technique. Read the WT article and you'll see what I mean. Because of this, it isn't accurate to criticize Mearsheimer and Walt in this article for "using" the term "Jewish lobby", they didn't. -- Deodar 17:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The footnotes have doubled themselves at the end and I can't see why they're doing it.
Bhouston, when you write refs, could you please start with the name of the author, if there is one? The usual practise is surname first, but it's name first in any event. Also, be sure to put quotation marks around the title of the paper/article. e.g.
Also, please don't put quotations in italics. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
(moved from SV talk page) It would be cool to answer my response on the talk page. Both you and Jayjg seem to be avoiding answering it. The term "Jewish lobby" is used by the BBC, Ha'aretz, Time Magazine (historically), and the New York Times in non prejudical fashions. I can find lots more references. I will continue to pursue this and outside commentators will see that your extreme position, i.e. that the term is never used by non racists or people pushing distortions, is non-nonsensical -- you are painting with too broad a brush. I know how you feel but you are not taking a position on this article that reflects all of reality, just a single aspect of it. -- Deodar 02:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Bhouston, regardless of any other consideration, please don't keep trying to switch the focus to only one country and one issue. The term is used by many groups all over the world to refer to many things. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, Jayjg and Humus sapiens have been removing references that the term "Jewish lobby" may be made in reference to the Israel lobby in the United States. It is true that the term is a favorite of racists as the current state of the article reflects but this is not its only usage as my previous comments on this page clearly show. The term is used by mainstream American, British and Israeli publications in non-prejudical fashion to reference the Israel lobby in the United States. That said, there is a deeper reason why the removal of this viewpoint by SlimVirgin, Jayjg and Humus sapiens is a bad idea. People that hear in vague references about a supposed "Jewish lobby" from whatever sources informal or not may end up here. They may also hear that talking about the Jewish lobby is taboo even though it exists. This page, if it only condemns any mention of it as anti-Semitism but there is some hints in the way it is condemned to suggest there is more too it, it reduces the effectiveness of condemning things as anti-Semitic. Refusing to deal with the topic here, i.e. not satisfying people's curiosity, may cause people to seek information elsewhere, information which may not, especially if it is on racists sites, present a honest picture. It is much better to satisfy people's curiosity with the truth, aim to correct people that get distorted understandings of the "Jewish lobby" in addition to pointing out what are distortions and why some groups promote them. The truth it is a lot more boring and a lot more grounding than fantasies they can find elsewhere. Honestly, leaving curiosity unsatisfied (especially when done as clumsily as the article currently does) is more dangerous than giving them the boring truth. -- Deodar 03:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
See: Why pretending there is no lobby isn't productive. Feel free to remove this comment, its just a notice. -- Deodar 03:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Fwiw, IMO "Jewish Lobby" is a slur no matter the intention of the user. Those who use the term in ignorance or otherwise without bad intent should nevertheless be informed that the term itself is derogatory, and they should be encouraged to adopt alternative phraseology. Dasondas 20:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I'm here off of the Pharyngula atheist/biology blog. We're having an argument about whether Dawkins' mention of the Jewish lobby is antisemitic. Other guy cited the main article, I've cited this talk.
Let me reiterate what I said there: a number of the organizations compromising the informal Jewish lobby have Jewish right in their name, Israel is an avowedly Jewish state, and the people it advocates on behalf of are generally Jewish. It's Orwellian, strange and clumsy to say that the term "Jewish" alone, just because it's next to "lobby", has become a slur, even though most of the group's component parts wear the label proudly. You really should consider that, although it might be a favorite of antisemites, it's still not a slur in and of itself any more than "Jewish" is in and of itself.
That way, in the future, when people want to argue about the meaning of what biologists have said about the internal politics of foreign countries' lobbies, the immediate Wikipedia citation can at least reflect that there's at least serious dispute about whether the term is a slur in and of itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.29.37.227 ( talk) 19:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I created a dab page and listed two meanings so far. I have removed non-conspiratorial relevant links from this page since it is now clearly focused on one specific usage. I have also added to the article Israel lobby in the United States a "for X, see Y" template to this page. Jayjg said there are other meanings that the dab page is probably the easiest way to go. What do you think? -- Deodar 04:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Why must he continue to do such things? Kiyosaki 05:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone who knows more about this topic should expand the history section. I’ve been trying to find the origin of the conspiracy theory without much luck. Racist people don’t seem to make this allegation against any other group, so I was wondering if the conspiracy theory is based on some point in history where Jewish people did control a disproportional high number of banks or media providers. Thanks, -- Arctic Gnome 02:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Not that I particularly care, but "some point in history"? jews make up 1% of the US pop and control 85% of the fim studios, I wonder what absolute domination of the mass media could be used for? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.203.230.213 ( talk • contribs)
It seems that, much like anti-globalization and antisemitism, a great deal of anti-Semitic feelings are related to anti-capitalism. Many of the people that have these beliefs are obviously socialistic and/or left-leaning in political orientation (which includes many Jews, by the way), asserting that some Jews use their "traditional business acumen" and "shrewdness" to "dominate" and/or "control" key industries, in the meanwhile eliminating all competitors; this is often in contrast to those on The Right that have anti-Semitic beliefs that are racial ( Racial antisemitism) and/or religious ( Anti-Judaism) in orientation. However, even Nazism (often associated with the Far Right) was technically called the 'National Socialist German Workers Party,' (the key words there being 'Socialist' and 'Workers,' both associated with anti-capitalism), and if you read around you'll find that many of the Nazi leaders expressed quite a bit of anti-capitalist sentiment in relation to Jews, especially in their more personal writings. Indeed, one of the first thing that the Nazis did when they came to power was to organize mass-boycotts of Jewish-owned businesses (especially dept. stores, newspapers, and various banks), which eventually decimated the German-Jewish community economically and caused many of them to emigrate within a few months or years.
This is not only the case in modern times with the so-called " New antisemitism" (which is strongly associated with the more socialistic Left), but was also found in the past where many prominent Communists/socialists were anti-capitalist AND anti-Semitic at the same time. Stalin cracked down on Jews in the USSR post-WWII, citing that they [paraphrasing] "still have too much control in business and government." This also includes many lower-tier Jews in the former USSR and Eastern bloc, along with Karl Marx in his essay On the Jewish Question. Many of these Communist/socialist Jews went so far as to entirely renounce Judaism (and all religion), and became radical anti-Semites (or Self-hating Jews, take your pick) in their own right -- for example, Mátyás Rákosi and Ernő Gerő of Hungary were both ethnic Jews and were anti-Semitic, along with many other Jews in the former USSR and Eastern bloc.
Also, amongst non-Jews these days, it is commonly said that "the Jews own/run/control everything" (anti-capitalist & anti-Semitic) or that "Jews control the media" (the media is also a business, at base -- especially Hollywood), or that in certain industries non-Jews are no longer able to compete anymore because "Jews already own everything" or that "the Jews have entirely cornered certain markets" (competition is an important element in free-market capitalism; in fact, it is key to the whole system). The increasing numbers of mergers and acquisitions in recent times (as the world has become more globalized), especially when it comes to media companies, seems to back-up a few of these theories (see the Viacom table I've added below as only one example of how "mergers and acquisitions" have affected the marketplace; and remember this is only a single example). It is also well known that Jews have been highly successful in the banking/financial sectors and are VERY overrepresented in these fields (the " Shylock stereotype"), epitomized most by Wall Street (based in New York City), along with all of the banks that are headquartered there: it is well known that many of the top directors, boards, and CEOs of these banks and other major financial companies/corporations are of Jewish ethnic origin (see List of Jewish American businesspeople, though this is only a fraction), even if they no longer practice Judaism and despite the fact that they are only approx. 2.5% of the U.S. population. Thus, I think that Anti-capitalism and antisemitism would make a good article, as more than a few anti-capitalists often harbor anti-Semitic beliefs as well (both in the past and the present). Anyone have more ideas, opinions, or thoughts on this subject? Would anyone like to start an article on this topic? -- 172.128.120.24 18:43, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This statement or versions of it have been added and remove from the article for a while:
Is there a way to handle this so that a stable solution can be found that everyone agrees with? Maybe the disambiguation line at the top of the article could be modified to suggest that the user may be looking for the "Israel lobby" entry directly -- the Jewish lobby (disambiguation) article is mostly a duplicate of the Israel lobby page anyhow. What do ya'll think? -- 64.230.127.30 04:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
putting the article under the heading anti semitism is NPOV and clearly aimed at predjudicing its future direction
I've put in the too few viewpoints tags. Further up the talk page is it asserted that "The term is used by many groups all over the world to refer to many things". So let's have them in the article. Catchpole 09:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I've moved the following sentence to Talk:
However, the term "Jewish lobby" is also used to refer to an Israel lobby in mainstream newspapers in America [6] [7], Israel [8] and Britain [9].
The item violates a number of fundamental policies and guidelines. To begin with, it's original research; that is,
The statement has clearly been put there to counter the sourced claim that the term's use is antisemitic, yet this counter-argument is sourced to no-one.
Next, it also violates WP:NEO:
The sources used in this article must discuss the term "Jewish lobby", not merely use it. Jayjg (talk) 17:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
How can the sentence "The expression is regarded as anti-semitic slur." be attributed to Tariq Ramadans article? Seems like stretching the sources here. In the referenced article he mentiones the expression once and though he is critical of the conspiracy theories about the powerful jews, I can not really find any evidence that he regards the expression (per se) as slur. I´ve just browsed it and am not a native english speaker, but please help me understand... Maybe sources from both "sides" should be placed under the same scrutiny? pertn 20:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Catchpole has again inserted the following sentence:
The Economist has used the term American-Jewish lobby to refer to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. [10]
The article in question uses the term "American-Jewish lobby" in a headline, and then describes AIPAC as "the lobby" in the article. Exactly what it the point being made here? How is this relevant to this article? I must remind Catchpole that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Jayjg (talk) 21:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Pertn restored the tags stating: "Seriously Jayjg, even you don't think this article covers all relevant views and is NPOV". Both he and I have asked for cites stating that the term is used in a non-antisemitic way (or whatever way you guys are arguing that it's used). None have been forthcoming and the supposed examples that were given were, a) OR and b) dubious because it was a different phrase which referred to a Jewish lobby group, not the Jewish lobby. There is no legitimate reason to keep the tags. If proper cites are produced, we still don't need them, because then we'll just incorporate them. <<-armon->> 09:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Another rv: Pertn, please list what you think the outstanding issues are. <<-armon->> 09:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
This article should not go under the heading 'antisemitism.' The allegation of an inordinately influential pro Israel lobby is not antisemitic. 71.179.117.2 02:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
please consider adding this link to references:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=11&ItemID=9999 it is a N. Chomsky article about the "Israel lobby", a somewhat different concept from Jewish lobby
(i am new to editing and don't want to do it myself)
Bartletts article (quite good actually) is available online here: http://newint.org/features/2004/10/01/conspiracism/ I am not sure how to add it. pertn 11:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I recently wrote this message to Jpgordon after he reverted my edit which talked about a Jewish Lobby exerting too much influence in the U.S. (I referenced it with an IHR website), he told me to write it on the talk, so here it is: Hi, you say we don't site "Holocaust denial websites", but IHR doesn't deny the Holocaust. IHR says that any serious scholar wouldn't deny the Holocaust, but that they do try to historically review our standard view of the holocaust and present possible exaggerations of it. Anyone who says the Holocaust couldn't be exaggerated at least somewhat in our modern view of history isn't being NPOV because there are two sides to every story. In this case the sides are that the atrocities of the Holocaust are played down and were actually far worse, or the atrocities of the Holocaust have been exaggerated and were actually not as bad. To not include either of these sides is to not be NPOV, and Wikipedia is all about NPOV, so I would ask that you consider reverting your edits on the Jewish lobby article. There are two sides to that article, and what I have added helps to present both sides. Thank you, Scifiintel 15:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC) What do you people think, should we add stuff which I believe presents the other side of this article? Thanks, Scifiintel 15:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Big edit push today to characterize talking about a "Jewish lobby" as antisemitism. Rolled back a few edits. If that argument is going to go anywhere, it needs more supporting citations from reliable sources. -- John Nagle 06:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
We had a quote farm of somewhat disorganized quotes, and I've put them under country sections. We have US and UK sections now. There are indications in [12] that a USSR section might be useful, but I'm not sure how to write that. -- John Nagle 16:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we remove op-eds as not reliable. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 23:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Please refrain from deleting edits of other people who just wish to present the whole story, in its complexity. If no consensus can be reached on specific subjects, it is a must to present all opinions in a balanced manner.-- Mazarin07 10:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Numerous cited scholars and researchers have documented that "Jewish lobby" is a term used to promote or reinforce antisemitic stereotypes. Whether or not you believe that the term is always used this way, there can be no question it often, or at least sometimes, is. So the template needs to be there.
Nobody disputes that there are Jewish (as well as Catholic, Lutheran, etc.) advocacy groups that seek to influence policy through "lobbying." This is a perfectly legitimate political activity, regulated by a number of laws and rules. But the term "Jewish lobby" is - as has been documented - used to imply that Jewish organizations exercise an inordinate, inappropriate, and clandestine influence on US policy, even to the detriment of American interests. It is hard to find examples of the term being used in any other way in any of the literature. To illustrate: you'd be hard pressed to find the many Jewish philanthropic organizations listed as part of the "Jewish lobby," and whenever you find the term "lobby" used for other groups, (e.g., "Big Tobacco Lobby") it has a similar negative connotation.
So while one should acknowledge the existence of Jewish advocacy organizations, which the article does, it would be misleading to represent the notion that the term "Jewish lobby" is used as a neutral synonym for "Jewish advocacy organizations." It is of course a legitimate question how much influence Jewish organizations have, but that is covered in the article. In other words, this article - based on its title - is about that question: who raises it, why, what effect does it have, what are the various answers. -- Leifern 11:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that labelling the Jewish lobby as a mere conspiracy theory cannot be justified. Of course, there is also this aspect related to the subject, but the Wikipedia article shall present all facets of the issue. The presence of Antisemitism template is an expression of recognizing the overwhelming importance of the conspiracy theory, so it must be removed. IMHO the inclusion into the Category:Antisemitism can remain in place.-- Mazarin07 16:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I've tried for a more neutral first paragraph, and have added a "controversy" section, while leaving the "antisemitism" box. This needs a look by some neutral parties. I'd appreciate comments from experienced editors who edit non-Israel related subjects. Thanks. -- John Nagle 03:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Nagle, you have again reverted in the phrase "The existence of a Jewish lobby is denied in some circles." Of course this unsourced POV assumes that there is a "Jewish lobby", which "some circles deny"; I suppose like "some circles" deny the Holocaust, or that the earth is a sphere. In any event, please propose changes here first, rather than edit-warring in the usual POV. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 03:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
We're probably going to have to go to dispute resolution to deal with the problem. -- John Nagle 07:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I just read through this whole talk page and the article remains messy and POV. It seems absurd that even references to "Jewish lobbies" where Jews lobby together on issues like anti-Semitic discriminatory laws against Jews or whatever would NOT be covered in such an article. In fact, making it anti-Semitic to use the phrases makes people afraid to SUPPORT such lobbying, marginalizing and ostracizing Jews from larger society, certainly not the goal of those who try to narrow the definition.
Maybe [we can discuss other] uses of the phrase, not to mention the non-anti-Semitic uses mentioned above. Also, then it would be necessary to get rid of the Jewish lobby (disambiguation) page. I'm trying to focus on other subjects, but I wish SOMEONE would just go back in there and make this a NON-POV article. Carol Moore 03:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC) User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc
The recent revert war just proves again that this article is extremely tainted with POV. Luckily, I have found SEVERAL sources that talk about the use of the word and note that the ANTI-semitic uses are not necessarily the dominant ones. Anyone who is a neutral WIKI editor and not promoting an agenda can see that an internet search shows that out of the top 100 uses less than half are anti-semitic and most are just synonyms for the Israel Lobby. Yet we are constantly bullied into allowing the minor useage to be the ONLY useage. What's next? Make any use of "Israel Lobby" anti-semitic? Read thoroughly the talk entries above. Carol Moore 01:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC) User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc
Regretfully, I've had to step in here again to clean up a page that was rapidly filling up with original research, and violations of WP:NEO. Please review [WP:NOR]] thoroughly: You can't use primary sources to try to build a thesis regarding the use of this term; instead, you must use secondary sources which discuss this term. As a result of this failure, most of the article violated WP:NEO:
To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term—not books and papers that use the term.
I've had to remove the original research factoids that listed usages of this neologism, in favor of sources which actually discuss the use of the term. Please find sources that actually discuss the use of the term, not simply use it - I'm going to have to ruthlessly remove any sources which are mere example of the terms usage, rather than discussions of the term, per WP:NOR and WP:NEO. And if you want to POV an article about the "Israel lobby", the rather horrifyingly poorly written article on the subject is thataway. Jayjg (talk) 06:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
If WP:NEO doesn't recognize that some PHRASES used for a number of years may not ever have been described in a neutral (as opposed to partisan) dictionary or encyclopedia, for whatever reason, then WP:NEO has to be changed to reflect that fact. Carol Moore 04:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
It took about 1/2 hour to find these most recent discussions ABOUT the term. I'm sure a more thorough search could come up with lots more.
The second commandment is: “Get organized and stay organized.” The post-holocaust Jew must belong to and support a whole range of organizations. There is a Jewish lobby. Why shouldn’t there be! There is a gun lobby, an oil lobby, and an Arab lobby. This is America. Lobbying is a right and a political privilege. There are organizations devoted to anti-defamation, education, and support of the State of Israel. There ought to be, and Jews must be active in these organizations.
Is there a "Jewish Lobby" in the United States? Of course there is, just as there are highly effective lobbies for gun ownership, farmers and for ridding Cuba of communism: How else is it that America persists in its spiteful and futile persecution of Fidel Castro's unlovely but unimportant regime? The answer is the critical Cuban-American vote in the electorally vital Florida.
Israel and the Left, Philip Green, April 17, 2003 (May 5, 2003 issue)
At the same time, it is not anti-Semitic to say, as Moran perhaps intended to say and as is often said on the left, that "the Jewish lobby is one of the biggest obstacles to a rational American Middle East policy." That statement is arguable, and hyperbolic, but at the same time perfectly reasonable in its broad outline--reasonable judgments are often arguable or hyperbolic. The main point is that there undeniably is a pro-Israel lobby in Washington composed in great part of the representatives of several major Jewish organizations, and if those organizations had their way American policy would always tilt unequivocally toward Israel: just as if the Irish political elite in Massachusetts had had their way policy would for many years have tilted toward Irish Republicanism; or would have tilted toward Mussolini in the 1930s if the major Italian-American organizations had had their way. As Michael Kinsley pointed out in Slate, one of the strongest claims ever made for the power of this lobby can be found on the website of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).
What sets Petras’ work apart, first off, is his dropping or blurring of distinctions. The terms “Jewish lobby,” “Israel lobby” and “Zionist lobby” are used interchangeably. Others, at least on the Left, have worked to mark the important distinction between Jews, as Jews, regardless of their differing ideologies, and those supporters of Israel, Jew and non-Jew alike, who actively promote and support Israel’s racist and expansionist practices. Petras facilely drops that distinction. (In an apparent attempt to deflect criticism, he states that he is justified in using the term “Jewish lobby” since that is what the Israelis use when discussing political support in the United States — as if adopting the Zionist movement’s cynical appropriation of all things Jewish serves any progressive purpose.)
There is No “Israel Lobby” By Kim Petersen 04/26/06
Since the “Israel Lobby” does not represent “Arab-Israeli” interests, and since it represents Jewish interests worldwide, the label “Jewish lobby” (there is no need to capitalize the “l”) would be much more accurate. Also, “Zionist lobby” would seem to be less accurate because the lobby’s goals are not limited to Zionism but include policies dedicated to the interests of certain Jewish “elites.” So long as it is not implied that all Jews (since modern Jews never formed a coherent ethnic or national group, but are peoples who have shared somewhat the same religion, how can one address them as a homogenous group? For instance, if a Ukrainian Jew renounces Judaism and declares atheism, then why should he be treated as Jew that he is no longer?) are included as lobby members, then there is no reason not to label the “Jewish lobby” for what it is. Most people would not, after all, object to the label “Catholic lobby” or “Arab lobby,” so why should the label “Jewish lobby” be controversial?
Regarding the labeling, Blum responds, “I used ‘Israel Lobby’ because that’s what the authors of the report I referred to used. And the purpose of the lobby is to help Israel, not Jews per se.”
With all due respect to the incisive anti-imperialist Blum, he is remarkably off base when he says: “the purpose of the lobby is to help Israel.” Since, as stated, approximately one-fifth of “Israelis” are Arabs, and since the lobby has no intention of helping them whatsoever, the purpose as stated by Blum is, intentionally or not, fallacious. To be factually accurate, one should state that the intention is to help the “Jews of Israel” and not “Israel” per se. Blum, however, does see merit in changing the designation of the “Israel lobby.”
Carol Moore 21:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
I remain skeptical of the wiki-lawyering above. The bottom line remains that in the real world the word is used MORE as a synonym for Israel Lobby or for miscellaneous non-Israel related Jewish-oriented lobbying (like making it illegal to deny the Holocaust or getting more police money to defend synagogues from vandals). If in Wikipedia-weird world it is allowed only the one meaning of a bigoted use, that shows the weakness of wikipedia. However, the search for articles - written or yet to be written - which clarify this issue shall continue. Carol Moore 05:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
I'll tell you after I restudy the issue. Now that I have read even more carefully WP:NPOV much more carefully and done the tutuorial. Carol Moore 05:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Does WP:OR Trump WP:NPOV?? That's the question I asked here: Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#Does_WP:OR_Trump_WP:NPOV.3F.3F Hopefully it will engender an enlightening discussion. Carol Moore 05:59, 8 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Relevant quotes from Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial
Some examples of how editors may unwittingly or deliberately present a subject in an unfair way:
- Biased or selective representation of sources, eg:
o Explaining why evidence supports one view, but omitting such explanation in support of alternative views. o Making one opinion look superior by omitting strong and citable points against it, comparing it instead with low quality arguments for other POVs (strawman tactics). o Not allowing one view to "speak for itself", or refactoring its "world-view" into the words of its detractors.
- Editing as if one given opinion is "right" and therefore other opinions have little substance:
o Entirely omitting significant citable information in support of a minority view, with the argument that it is claimed to be not credible. o Ignoring or deleting significant views, research or information from notable sources that would usually be considered credible and verifiable in Wikipedia terms (this could be done on spurious grounds). o Concealing relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to fairly judge their value.
Thus, verifiability, proper citation and neutral phrasing are necessary but not sufficient to ensure NPOV. It is important that the various views and the subject as a whole are presented in a balanced manner and that each is summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability.
Finally, it recommends if there is a problem like those described above a template should be added UNTIL all editors agree the problem has been resolved. So I'm adding.
This article may be
unbalanced toward certain viewpoints. |
Carol Moore 06:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Carol Moore 04:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
With all these messages last few days, just found this one. I am going to look back through the Green article and see if I missed anything. Plus I have some other leads.
Meanwhile, please, read and think about the WP:NPOV tutorial quoted more fully above on:
And especially look over: Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view
On certain topics, there is naturally less "expertise" and scientific thinking, and more "opinion". This is especially the case of topics such as morals or religion, based on faith, as well as politics.
We should then list all points of views, according to their importance, and, if possible, be precise as to who holds them. There exist some cases where the vast majority of political parties, politicians and journalists hold a certain opinion, while a sizeable minority do not: both views should be stated.
Doesn't it say LIST??? - it doesn't say making such a list is WP:OR or that a commonly used phrase only can be listed if some reliable source explicitly defines that very very specific use of the word. The whole tenor of the section is towards inclusion of important information - not exclusion on WP:POV grounds.
As long there remain editors contending - as many have on this talk page in the past and one or two do now -- that this article excludes the obvious fact that Jewish groups and the mainstream press use the phrase Jewish Lobby in non-antisemitic ways, and excludes a couple such examples, then this article is excluding information in a WP:POV fashion and that "LIMITED" template belongs front and center.
And of course the more time I have to spend explaining this, the less time I have to work on a) finding such a definition anyway and b) improving the article. Once I finish taking my break from editing the article as recommended by wikipedia when there is a dispute. Maybe you all should take some time off too. Meanwhile the "LIMITED" template should remain. It should have been here for the last couple years. Carol Moore 07:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
See response ( User:Armon) at Carol Moore 17:10, 11 January 2008 below Carol Moore CarolMooreDC talk
Added a new section, "Jewish lobby" vs. "Israel lobby", with cites from sources that compare and contrast the terms. Moved quotes relevant to that subject to that paragraph. This directly addresses the controversial issue - are "Jewish lobby" and "Israel lobby" the same thing, or what? A number of the cited sources speak to that specific issue, so it makes sense to put them together. Comments? -- John Nagle ( talk) 22:59, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
As I just wrote above at the bottom of Talk:Jewish_lobby#A_review_of_policies_and_guidelines.2C_particularly_WP:NPOV, I believe that Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view statements undermine this theory that there must be a quote defining each and every use of a term ever used to express a political position:
On certain topics, there is naturally less "expertise" and scientific thinking, and more "opinion". This is especially the case of topics such as morals or religion, based on faith, as well as politics.
We should then list all points of views, according to their importance, and, if possible, be precise as to who holds them. There exist some cases where the vast majority of political parties, politicians and journalists hold a certain opinion, while a sizeable minority do not: both views should be stated.
Again I believe it authorizes listing views without some outside source defining every term = though I'll keep looking for a good definition anyway. Meanwhile, the article remains "LIMITED" by excluding nonantisemitic uses -- calling them "naive" would be very WP:POV. Also, as two quotes I listed showed, Jewish lobby obviously IS used as a positive phrase. And even as a critic of Israel I support the right of any ethnic, religious group to lobby, especially if it is lobbying against laws that might be enforced against it domestically. Like if David Duke or Ann Coulter got elected president. I mean what could antisemites want more than to discourage and prevent Jews from proclaiming their right to lobby as organized Jewish groups??? Carol Moore 07:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Regarding the less controversial issues:
This Article Link was a response to John Nagle's question above: Does "Jewish lobby" mean something else outside the US? Just something he could read and decide if it answered his other questions. This would be a more relevant quote, though whole article about Jewish Organizations doing lobbying. "Harris: There are some Jewish organizations who have thought about going in and creating, I quote a `lobby,' or trying to bring American political tactics, importing them to Brussels.'" Carol Moore 05:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Improved wording, per WP:WEASEL: "If a statement is true without weasel words, remove them." -- John Nagle ( talk) 05:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
If the existing cites aren't satisfactory, we can also add this one: [20]
As is well-known, the Procotols was a forged document written in Russia in 1897, alleging that a worldwide Jewish conspiracy existed. This document attempted to explain a seeming contradiction: Jews were (are) prominent both in capitalist and in socialist/communist circles: the ‘explanation’ was that both were shams: capitalist and communist Jews were not really at odds, as it might seem. They were in fact united (secretly) in a bid for world domination. Although this conspiracy theory lay at the heart of Nazism it is also widespread outside neo-fascist groupings. Many of these are right-wing/neo-Nazi (e.g. Pamyat in Russia) but the Protocols have had some influence on movements with some claim to progressive credentials. The Protocols have also had some influence elsewhere, so that Eyptian and Syrian state-sponsored TV serials have produced soaps which dramatise the allegations of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Mohamed, 2002; Kaba and Tubiana, 2002).
That some type of shadowy Jewish conspiracy exists is commonsense, taken-for-granted element in many quarters: e.g. rumours that the predominance of neo-conservatives in the USA is a ‘Jewish conspiracy’ (Greenspan, 2003; Berlet, 2004; Interview, 2004 ). Perhaps even more common is a vague suspicion that such a conspiracy might exist but that it is impolite to articulate this. A contemporary form of this fear is the phrase ‘the Jewish lobby’ without mentioning other ‘lobbies’ or differentiating Jews who have different political positions on a number of questions, including Israel and Palestine. <<-armon->> ( talk) 00:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Carol Moore 16:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Ok, now I see it. But this is using the footnotes for absurd POV pushing that would not be allowed in the text. I deleted it on those grounds - as well as two other POV pushing quote farmy quotes in references. If it's so important, make it part of the discussion. I don't see other articles that have paragraphs of quotes in the references. Carol Moore 06:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
John, I notice you keep adding the sentence The term " Israel lobby" is preferred by AIPAC, which refers to itself as "America's Pro-Israel Lobby". in various forms. From what I can see the AIPAC page doesn't mention the term "Jewish lobby", nor does it anywhere state that it prefers the term "Israel lobby" to "Jewish lobby". Please be mindful of the original research policy. If you can find a source that that discusses the term "Jewish lobby" in the context of AIPAC, that's fine, but so far I haven't seen one. Jayjg (talk) 04:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Jayjg writes towards end of : Talk:Jewish_lobby#Reliable_Sources_About_Non-Bigoted_Uses_of_Term_.E2.80.9CJewish_Lobby.E2.80.9D: The fifth source does discuss the term "Jewish lobby", but rather unfortunately comes from another unreliable source and non-notable website, "Dissident Voice" - see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dissident_Voice_(third_nomination) for detail as to why this is so.
Why was article deleted? No Sources. WP:ATT The only google news sources were 13 references to authors who write for it on one specific day. No report on google web searches. And based on lack of any sources a couple people claimed it wasn’t “notable enough.”
What reference on Jewish Lobby has an article that as a template saying This article does not cite any references or sources. - could it be Jewish Virtual Library?? So what proof is there that it is noteable enough? (Just to prove the point I just put a notability template on it.) Do we see a double standard here?? Should I call for deletion of the article to get someone to improve it??
And let’s not even start on the WP:POV of the source. The existing (non-sourced) wiki article calls it: “The Jewish Virtual Library is an online encyclopedia published by the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE), notable for its strong pro-Israel views.”
There is not a significant difference in the number of references to Jewish Virtual Library on Google news and web compared to Dissident Voice, and I’m sure sufficient quality quotes about both topics could be found.
1/11/2008: Google news search
1/11/2008: Google web search
Should I quickly put together a WELL SOURCED article on DissidentVoice.Org since Sourcing WAS the only real issue? Why not??? How can I find the original article cause I know they keep deleted articles somewhere on wikipedia? Thanks. Carol Moore 18:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Carol Moore 00:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
First and only introductory sentence: This article is about the relationship between Islam and antisemitism. The nature and extent of antisemitism in Islam is a hotly-debated issue in contemporary Middle East politics.
Section 1: Antisemitism in the context of Islam
First sentence: Scholars describe and analyze antisemitism within the context of Islam in different ways, depending partly on how they define antisemitism. For example:
Then it LISTS different views. That is how THIS article should be structured. The "phrase" Jewish Lobby is just as controversial as the "concept" Islam and antisemtism (as this talk page has shown for a couple of years) and there is no substantive reason they should be treated differently. Carol Moore 09:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
I mentioned this above but evidently should have explicitly quoted it (emphasis added):
Note that the templates that can be used for NPOV concerns generally suppose that the suspected NPOV problem is explained on the article's or category's talk page. When all NPOV-related issues detailed on the talk page have been handled, the template should be removed from the article or category page. In most cases, however, the least cumbersome way of handling NPOV concerns would be to improve the article or the category description, so that it is no longer POV.
I am working on improvements to make this an NPOV article, but it doesn't help that those who constantly revert everything on WP:OR refuse to comment on my last few posts explaining why this article remains POV and explaining how to make it NPOV. I'd like to avoid revert edit wars on the article itself by coming to an understanding here first the deals with POV concerns expressed by a majority of editors over the last couple year. Constantly reverting that template - and ignoring my last two posts - makes me think there is no desire for real discussion, not to mention understanding. Carol Moore 16:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Thanks. I can see that violating clearly stated Wikipedia policy is no problem with some people, as is now being reviewed elsewhere. Finishing up one other wiki project today and then spending the rest of the day on an important personal blog entry. Then I'll go find other discussions of James Petras' fascinating discussion of the use of the term "Jewish Lobby" so that I don't have to put back up the deleted Dissident Voice article right away per Talk:Jewish_lobby#WP:V_-_comparing_Jewish_Virtual_Library_and_Dissident_Voice. PS: also note I like to put a draft of the whole new article right here on the talk page so no one can claim I didn't seek consensus. So when I add my changes it will be a whole article, not piece meal. Carol Moore 18:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
As I look for more references, I'm seeing more uses of the term by leaders of Jewish organizations. I've cited uses by the editor of The Forward, the head lobbyist from AIPAC, and the head of a Jewish organization in France. Maybe we need to go with an intro like that from Queer: "Its usage is considered controversial and underwent substantial changes over the course of the 20th Century with some LGBT re-claiming the term as a means of self-empowerment. The term is still considered by some to be offensive and derisive, and by others as a re-appropriated term used to describe a sexual orientation and/or gender identity or gender expression that does not conform to heteronormative society." -- John Nagle ( talk) 17:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
More importantly as I have said a couple times above, removing this is direct violation of policy per: WP:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view which says:
Carol Moore 01:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
This is not freedom of speech rights, this is wikipedia POLICY. Please see WP:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view which says: "On certain topics, there is naturally less "expertise" and scientific thinking, and more "opinion". This is especially the case of topics such as morals or religion, based on faith, as well as politics. We should then list all points of views, according to their importance, and, if possible, be precise as to who holds them...." Also my changes to Goldberg quote make it infinitely more relevant to this article. Carol Moore 04:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
User:Nagle, you keep inserting this original research into the article:
AIPAC's former head lobbyist, Michael Bloomfield, in his article "Myths and facts about the Jewish lobby" [1], provides an insider's view of the lobby's structure, influence, and agenda. On the relationship between U.S. Jewish organizations and AIPAC, he writes "Mainstream Jewish organizations defer to AIPAC, even when they disagree, because they fear being labeled soft on Israel."
The insertion is unacceptable for a number of reasons.
It is apparent that you are simply doing a google search for +"Jewish lobby" +AIPAC, and then choosing whichever uses of the term best match your argument/speculation that the Jewish lobby... exists. Jayjg (talk) 03:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Please see this Policy WP:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view which says: "On certain topics, there is naturally less "expertise" and scientific thinking, and more "opinion". This is especially the case of topics such as morals or religion, based on faith, as well as politics. We should then list all points of views, according to their importance, and, if possible, be precise as to who holds them...." Carol Moore 04:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
User:Nagle, you keep inserting this quote into the article: The Economist writes of the "American-Jewish lobby": "These are both the best of times and the worst of times for the American-Jewish lobby. This week saw yet another reminder of the awesome power of “the lobby”. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) brought more than 6,000 activists to Washington for its annual policy conference. And they proceeded to live up to their critics' darkest fears." [2]
The insertion is unacceptable for a number of reasons.
It is apparent that you are simply doing a google search for +"Jewish lobby" +AIPAC, and then choosing whichever uses of the term best match your argument/speculation that the Jewish lobby... exists. Jayjg (talk) 03:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Carol Moore 04:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC) User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc
Obviously Mr. Nagle's additions are cover under this Policy WP:NPOV_tutorial#Moral_and_political_points_of_view which says: "On certain topics, there is naturally less "expertise" and scientific thinking, and more "opinion". This is especially the case of topics such as morals or religion, based on faith, as well as politics. We should then list all points of views, according to their importance, and, if possible, be precise as to who holds them...." Carol Moore 04:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
OK. Now that we've dealt with the "neologism" issue, let's move on to the "original research" issue. For reference, look at this version of the article, which has most of the items recently deleted as "original research".
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help))Now that's from The Economist, one of the more prestigious political journals in the world, and one with a good reputation for neutrality. It's a direct quote; there's no original text at all other than a very brief introduction to the quote. The article both uses the exact phrase "Jewish lobby" and is about the Jewish lobby.
Armon ( talk · contribs) deleted this quote [28] with the edit comment "(rm OR yet again, the cite has to be ABOUT the term)". He's echoing Jayjg ( talk · contribs), who previously deleted the same quote. [29].
That's a quote from an article by AIPAC's former head lobbyist, writing about the Jewish lobby. So that's a direct quote from a major player in Washington. One could argue over how much of the article should be included, of course. This was deleted by Armon ( talk · contribs) as part of the same edit.
So that's what's being deleted as "original research". Nothing there could possibly violate the sections of WP:OR quoted above. As for "neutral point of view" issues, arguably Bloomfield, the AIPAC lobbyist, isn't neutral, but I don't think that's what Armon ( talk · contribs) is unhappy about.
The real issue here is the mislabeling, as "original research", quotes which some editors would prefer be forgotten.
-- John Nagle ( talk) 06:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I just went back to count the edits; if we count sides, there's at least 6RR in the last 24 hrs.
Though no individual appears to have committed a 4RR blockable breach, the combination of behavior on both sides constitutes an edit war. The article is now full protected for 24 hours from now to attempt to slow down and defuse the edit war and encourage discussion here on the article talk page.
Georgewilliamherbert ( talk) 04:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
What I see is an opening statement that links the term Jewish Lobby with antisemitism then it follows with a number of people of questionable notability defining the term. This article should be merged with Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 15:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
First, User:Georgewilliamherbert says above: While the mere existence and usage of the term, and what it means, are well documented, adding more instances of its usage doesn't add anything important or interesting to the article and isn't encyclopedic content per se. Seems to me this applies to the ever multiplying quote farm of those saying it ALWAYS means something antisemitic. Otherwise his general comments about our interpretations unclear but his specific answers to my questions (in the middle of "Quotes from the Economist") are more clear and I do not necessarily disagree with them, though I feel we'd have debate over the interpretation of them.
Meanwhile User:Armon asks John Nagle: find a cite for your opinions. So below are some quotes John might find of use for the approach he is using, which overlaps with mine, I think(?). They are not a presentation of quotes about the use of the term which I'll get around to finishing off with defenses for their use at some point; bills are due and all that and I don't get paid for doing wiki stuff. Note: Bold emphasis added below.
The Jewish United Fund/Jewish Federation of Metropolitan Chicago http://www.juf.org/news/local.aspx?id=15862 I'm a proud member of 'the Jewish lobby' By Eve Samborn
Nothing I advocated for recently in Washington, as part of my trip with JUF's Jewish Community Relations Council, was particularly controversial. World peace did not hinge on my ability to communicate effectively with members of Congress. I was told repeatedly that what I said did not tip the balance, lest I feel burdened by fear of failure. Then why was it so important that I go? The Jewish community is fortunate to enjoy widespread support throughout Capitol Hill. It seems that most of our agenda for the day will pass easily, and is especially popular with members of the Illinois Congressional delegation. Ignoring the concerns of the Jewish community is a political risk that few members of Congress, on either side of the aisle, feel is worth taking. This has not always been the case.... When I told him about the trip, a non-Jewish friend asked jokingly, "So you're part of the Jewish lobby now, huh?" "Yes," I replied slowly, "I guess I am." That is a statement I know I can be proud of.
http://zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2007/02/liberal-now-means-anti-zionist.html Thursday, February 1, 2007 'Liberal' now means anti-Zionist
Mr. Judt, whose views on Israel and the American Jewish lobby have frequently drawn fire, is chastised for what Mr. Rosenfeld calls "a series of increasingly bitter articles" that have "called Israel everything from arrogant, aggressive, anachronistic, and infantile to dysfunctional, immoral, and a primary cause of present-day anti-Semitism." (NOTE: no quotation to show that they are not using the phrase is straight forward descriptive way.)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3091240,00.html Mr. Sharon goes to Washington, Opinion in Ynetnews, March 27 2005 Nahum Barnea and Shimon Shiffer
No Jewish lobby has more political power than the 100,000-strong AIPAC organization. This power is one of Israel’s greatest global assets.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1177251151218&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter Apr. 23, 2007 Coming together, falling apart SHIRA TEGER , THE JERUSALEM POST
The more that young Soviet Jews risked their lives and their freedom to challenge Soviet policy, the more young American Jews were emboldened to become more politically Jewish in their behavior. There was this reciprocal relationship of empowerment. What we know today as the Jewish lobby largely owes its empowerment to the Six Day War."
http://www.forward.com/articles/11986/ The Jewish Lobby Israel Needs Akiva Eldar | Wed. Nov 07, 2007 (Note: used only in the headline, in descriptive not pejorative manner)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/912695.html Last update - 22:24 11/12/2007 U.S. Jews are losing their bond to Israel By Haaretz Staff and Channel 10 October 14, 2007.
But despite the ever present strength of the Jewish lobby in the U.S., the average age of politically involved Jews is on the rise, and young American Jews are growing less and less interested.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/900481.html 4/09/07 Border Control / The optimist from East Jerusalem By Akiva Eldar
...The Christian Arab (Safieh is also the PLO representative to the Vatican) has had to repel the wave of Islamophobia sweeping over Americans following the September 11, 2001 attacks.Not only does he have to deal with the Jewish lobby, whose influence over the centers of power in the American capital it is hard to exaggerate, he must also maneuver between the PLO-in-the-territories and the PLO abroad, between the Fatah-West Bank government and the Hamas-Gaza government...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=395916&contrassID=13 An American Jewish lobby at the European Union By Amiram Barkat
"The establishment of the institute raises another, intra-Jewish problem. After all, this is the home arena of European Judaism. People like Malcolm Hoenlein, the executive vice-chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, believe that a Jewish lobby in Brussels should be run by European Jews, and not by American Jews."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/789919.html The Gewalt agenda By Akiva Eldar
The prime minister hopes the Jewish lobby can rally a Democratic majority in the new Congress to counter any diversion from the status quo on the Palestinians.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=841010& The attack on the Jewish lobby keeps coming and coming -
...You can read a summery of Soros' criticism - and that of others - in Nathan Guttman's Forward comprehensive piece: Major critiques of Jewish lobbying were published by controversial billionaire George Soros, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist Nicholas Kristof, the respected British newsmagazine The Economist and the popular Web site Salon. The replies were furious. The New York Sun accused Kristof and Soros of spreading a "new blood libel." The American Jewish Committee's executive director, David Harris, wrote in a Jerusalem Post opinion article that Kristof had a "blind spot" and had "sanctimoniously lectured" Israel. The editor of The New Republic, Martin Peretz, renewed an attack on Soros that he began a month ago when he called the Hungarian-born Holocaust survivor a "cog in the Hitlerite wheel."....
http://www.jstandard.com/articles/3712/1/The-Jewish-lobby:-Exposed The Jewish lobby: Exposed in New Jersey Jewish Standard By Phyllis Chesler | Published 01/11/2008 |
Last week, the Wiesenthal Center took a high-minded, utterly rational, and insanely expensive full-page ad in The New York Times and in the International Herald Tribune in which it denounced "Suicide Terror." The ad calls upon the "world to act" against the "plague" of such attacks that have "murdered thousands of innocents," and it displays the photo of the late Benazir Bhutto, whose claim to innocence has been widely disputed but whose assassination, in my opinion, was utterly tragic. The ad is bravely naïve. For example, it calls upon the U.N. General Assembly to hold a "special session to deal exclusively with the scourge of suicide terror."
(Note: She seems to be “exposing” that the Jewish Lobby (which she uses in title in descriptive not pejorative manner) is not acting effectively enough on this issue.) Carol Moore 18:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
An editor's personal observations and research (e.g. finding blogs and books that use the term) are insufficient to support use of (or articles on) neologisms because this is analysis and synthesis of primary source material (which is explicitly prohibited by the original research policy).
First, I have to doubt that a 30 year old phrase is a neologism. Second, it is discouraging to add anything here when there are people whose history of edits is primarily reverts which I think look more like WP:Idontlikeit or WP:GAME than anything else. So for now I think I'll write an article about the phrase (without mentioning the Wikipedia article, of course) and get it out to thousands of people who write on the topic and see what they might be inspired to write about it all. Seems like the best use of my time. Though I'll monitor this page and see what other good quotes others come up with - and which ones they debunk. So you can list me as an editorial drop out on this topic for now. (Of course, self control is not my forte, so I'll probably throw in my two cents here from time to time.) Carol Moore 05:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC talk
Some of the cites used to support the lead sentence "The Jewish lobby is a term referring to allegations that Jews exercise undue influence in a number of areas, including politics, government, business, the media, academia, popular culture, public policy, international relations, and international finance." are questionable.
I don't intend to join this debate, but I've been following it with interest (and generally speaking, approval) and so will briefly comment.
I agree strongly with Jay and Armon on two important and related points: (1) Given the controversial nature of the phrase "Jewish lobby," the article should focus on the phrase itself, as opposed to say, competing claims about the activities and organizational influence of AIPAC and related groups. (2) In doing so, the article should carefully and rigorously distinguish between sources that merely use the phrase, and sources that discuss the phrase itself. Only the latter are appropriate.
As solid as these foundations are, it seems to me that at least two of the premises erected upon them are rickety. My caveats are as follows:
Jewish Lobby. A conglomeration of approximately thirty-four Jewish political organizations in the United States which make joint and separate efforts to lobby for their interests in the United States, as well as for the interests of the State of Israel. Among those organizations which are most actively involved in lobbying activities at federal, state, and local levels of political and governmental institutions are: the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the American Jewish Community (AJC), which was once headed by Arthur Goldberg, the former Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, and the B’nai B’rith which claims a membership of over half a million worldwide. The Jewish Lobby claims to speak for the six million Jews residing in the United States (with half of that number, or approximately three million, living in New York State and mid-Atlantic states – which exceeds the total number of Jews in the State of Israel), and it is known to be the most loyal and most generous donor to campaign expenses of public officials, regardless of nationality and religion. Political aspirants often find that Jewish constituencies are the first to embrace them and the last to abandon them, no matter how rough the going. See ARAB LOBBY, JEWISH DEFENSE LEAGUE, SADIT-BEGIN SUMMIT.
The Israelis, however, understood that the American Jewish lobby, despite its vociferous activism, did not really have the means to jeopardize Japanese sales to the American market. But one should not underestimate Japanese businessmen's perception of the Jewish lobby's economic position in the US.
[Berlin] was also sceptical about the real political influence of the Jewish lobby: he said American Catholics were better organised.(104)
At the time, he was convinced that Ben Gurion was wrong to seek to mobilise American Jewish opinion against British policy in Palestine; wrong because the Jewish lobby had little real influence; wrong because agitation would sow dissension between America and Britain.(108)
Berlin in fact became convinced that the Foreign Office was exaggerating the strength of the American Jewish lobby.(119)
Concluding suggestion.The term is controversial even among those who don't think it attributes undue influence to Jews. Walt and Mearsheimer famously avoid it because they want to stress that many members aren't Jewish, and many Jews don't support it. And Michael Geoffrey Bard write that "reference is often made to the "Jewish lobby" in an effort to describe Jewish influence, but the term is both vague and inadequate. American Jews are sometimes represented by lobbyists, but such direct efforts to influence policymakers are but a small part of the lobby's ability to influence policy." He argues that "Israeli lobby" (compare to W & M's 'Israel Lobby') "is a more accurate label than Jewish lobby, because a large proportion of the lobby is made up of non-Jews. This term also reflects the lobby's objective. The Israeli lobby can then be defined as those formal and informal actors that directly and indirectly influence American policy to support Israel."
I think what is extremely clear from the primary sources is that "Jewish lobby" was at one time a more acceptable umbrella phrase for AIPAC, the AJC, and related groups, and that it has since become more controversial, and has largely been replaced by "Israel lobby." I don't know if there's a good secondary source tracing this. At any rate, based on the reliable secondary sources we do have, my suggestion for the lede is something along the following lines: Jewish Lobby is a phrase sometimes used to refer loosely to AIPAC, the AJC, and other Jewish-American lobbying organizations. Its validity as a term is disputed by a number of commentators and on several grounds. Some argue that it attributes undue influence to Jews and is fundamentally antisemitic. Others claim that it is an inaccurate label for a political coalition that doesn't represent most American Jews and includes many non-Jews, and whose primary concern is policy towards Israel.
Best of luck to all as you work this out.-- G-Dett ( talk) 01:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I think G-Dett made some excellent suggestions, so I have reworked this document to use his suggestions (including his superior introduction) and to better organize the presentation of material to follow a logical order. I have not deleted any sentences; I have only moved them to more appropriate sections (for example much of the old introduction belonged in the Antisemitism section so I moved it there). And I moved the Antisemitism section to follow the Usage section since Usage is a more explanatory section, leading us through the uses of the term and reinforcing the Introduction.
Other than G-Dett's introduction, I also added two cited quotes from the Jerusalem Post which show its usage in a non-pejorative way to refer to AIPAC et al. I also reordered some of the paragraphs in the Usage section so the writing would follow the order of the introduction. Thank you, Jgui ( talk) 04:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
An editor's personal observations and research (e.g. finding blogs and books that use the term) are insufficient to support use of (or articles on) neologisms because this is analysis and synthesis of primary source material (which is explicitly prohibited by the original research policy).
Jgui, you don't need to address me at the beginning of every sentence. You have again included examples of the use of the term, not sources which discuss the term; and, in fact, your first insertion of Mearsheimer and Walt's use of the term is simply another example of the use of the term, and your second insertion of it is quite inaccurate; Mearsheimer and Walt claim that criticism of Israel or even reference to the Israel lobby will produce accusations of antisemitism - that has nothing to do with the term "Jewish lobby". I have again removed the WP:NOR violating material that provide examples of use of the term, and instead brought more sources that discuss the term. Jayjg (talk) 02:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Re: Raymond, his not having an article would not be an excuse for deleting his quote; if a better one by some one with a Wiki article was found, it would be an excuse for moving it down.
Re: You added "A conglomeration of approximately thirty-four" to the excerpt from the Raymond quote I chose to use, doubtless because you wanted fuller context. I believe you use the Walt/Mearsheimer quote out of context in a WP:SYNTHESIS way to prove your point that "Jewish lobby" is anti-semitic.
You take this that I quoted from the book version: anyone who merely claims that there is an Israel Lobby runs the risk of being charged with anti-Semitism, even though AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents and the Israeli media themselves refer to America’s ‘Jewish Lobby’. In effect, the lobby first boasts of its own power and frequently attacks anyone who calls attention to it.
And turn it into this inaccurate quote, still with the book as the reference:the Israeli media refer to America’s ‘Jewish Lobby’
Neither the long sentence or the short phrase really "discusses" Jewish lobby, both use it; but if one "discusses" it so does the other.
Moreover, the longer one gives NPOV context to the rest of what they have to say in that paragraph. To be clear, W/M believe that it is unfair that "AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents and the Israeli media" can use "Jewish Lobby" but others who do can be smeared. They themselves choose not to use it because they believe the "lobby is defined by its political agenda, not by religion or ethnicity." In deleting most of the first sentence and making the false claim that that only tiny phrase is "about" the Jewish Lobby but the whole sentence is not is just POV WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:SYNTHESIS and a violation of wiki policies.
I'll count my reverts and decide what to do about it. But again getting fed up with the WP:GAME and WP:Double Standard.Carol Moore 04:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
Evidence that use of "Jewish lobby" is more antisemitc than not??? Obviously there are a variety of statistical tests that could be applied to see whether NEUTRAL - CRITICAL - or ANTISEMITIC uses are most frequent. (Recognizing that there will be debate over whether many critical uses are antisemitic.) What statistical test do you suggest? I can think of a couple. Carol Moore 20:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
Which ever version ends up being the final one after dispute resolution, it should include a quote from this: Walter John Raymond, [ http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=1dtn0olA8PcC&dq=%22dictionary+of+politics%22&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=mWdU49sDHj&sig=jf98Xub08rUSP5KKMrMnEwGN6Wc The Dictionary of Politics: Selected American and Foreign Political and Legal Terms], Richmond, VA: Brunswick Publishing Corporation, 1992, 243.
The whole quote (per the above) being:
Carol Moore 00:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
Since I can see recent changes which have long been discussed on this page already have led to heated writing. Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles which encourages civil and cooperative editing. It also creates a working group that intends to much more quickly and effectively deal with dispute resolution on problems that arise in editing articles related to these topics. Thanks. Carol Moore 05:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC) CarolMooreDC {talk}
This page gets harder to read. I suggest we start by archiving everything before January 2008 when recent round began. Then by end of month we'll probably be ready for a January archive. I'll do it unless someone experienced wants to do it. This is the nly notice. Carol Moore 01:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
John, in your latest edit, on top of re-inserting original research sources that use the term, rather than discuss it, you also removed a reference from Geoffrey Brahm Levey & Philip Mendes. Jews and Australian Politics, Sussex Academic Press, 2004, who discuss the term. [38] Can you explain why? Do you object to this source in some way? Jayjg (talk) 04:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
This article has been placed on a one-revert rule. Any editor who makes more than one revert (and this revert must be discussed on the talk page) in a 24-hour period will be blocked. Please edit cooperatively, and seek consensus and compromise rather than edit-war. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 21:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Questions, cc: Jewish Lobby Talk Page This is my first mediation, read the relevant pages about but didn’t see clear answers.
Carol Moore 04:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
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