This sentence:
is probably not saying what it was meant to say. I'm not certain enough of its intended meaning to fix it, however. Please help. Jason Fruit ( talk) 14:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Whether or not there should be such a term as "Jewish Christians" is not the point here. The only point is that the term currently exists. Since it does, is this an adequate discussion of it? Rlquall 2057 14 Jul 2004 UTC
Please don't take this personally, Sam, as you're not the first to suggest this merger. I have reverted the comment, however, as I know quite a lot of people in both the Messianic and Hebrew Christian movements, and many if not most of them would not agree that they are one and the same thing. Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians have a lot in common: both are (mostly) persons of acknowledged birth or ancestry who (a) believe that Yeshua/Jesus is the Messiah, and (b) are proud of their Jewish heritage and want to retain it. But there are also significant differences between the two movements - differences that are big enough to justify the case for separate classification, in my opinion. A parallel case would be Baptists and Methodists: both are Protestants, but that doesn't make them the same thing, and Wikipedia rightly has separate articles for those two denominations.
I'm grossly oversimplifying things, I know, but in a nutshell:
The boundary between the two movements is blurred; some individuals (e.g. Moishe Rosen) seem to straddle it effortlessly, but it is there nonetheless. Because of the differences between the two movements, I do not think it fair to treat them as one, any more than I would treat Baptists and Methodists as a single entity. David Cannon 05:29, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Currently this article covers two rather unrelated subjects. I'd prefer to split off the part relating to Early Christianity but don't know which would be the most common English name. In German, "Judenchristen" quite unambigously refers to Early Christianity. -- Pjacobi July 8, 2005 17:43 (UTC)
I am not happy with the suggestion to merge this article with Judeo-Christian. The two concepts are not closely related. Jewish Christians is about people who define themselves as Christians who are ethnically Jewish. Judeo-Christian is about a set of moral and social beliefs, mooted by their followers to be rooted in the Old Testament and therefore in the Jewish and Christian traditions. There are Jews and Christians who hold to "Judeo-Christian" views as well as followers of both religions who disagree; there are also some who subscribe to neither faith who nevertheless promote "Judeo-Christian" ideals. Jewish Christians, however, are a faith community, not a set of beliefs. David Cannon 12:31, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
The 'Judeo-Christian' tradition is another way of saying the 'western cultural' tradition. This is used because it is considered less antisemitic than saying something like 'the Christian cultural tradition' which is often thought to devalue the role of the Hebrew Bible and Jewish culture on western civilisation.
On the other hand, "Jewish Christians" is often used by academics in discussing early Church history. The story goes that early proto-Christians (also sometimes called Nazarenes) were in fact a very small sect among many that were far more important e.g. Essenes, Sadducees, Pharisees, Qumran sect, Zealots, etc etc. Later on after the Jewish revolt and the Roman sacking of the temple, all these sects came together into the two glorious movements Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.
Well thats the story at least...
I hope I don't offend whoever put the notice there but I have removed it as the person who put it there was either in a massive rush (and won't mind us removing it) or really is not qualified to mod this area (and so won't mind us removing it).
It really is a bit of a tweedle-dum error which could have been picked up with a dictionary. No one has written in favour of merging it and never will because it really does not make any sense from any perspective to do so.
Anyway the notice looked a bit like this:
It has been suggested that this article or section be merged with Judeo-Christian. (Discuss)
The other debate was about whether to split the modern from the ancient, i.e, the early proto-Christians from modern believers in Christianity from a Jewish ethnicity. That could be done to the extent that you can find a term for each (or have a disambiguation aid). In general that would be a good idea, although there may be good arguments against it navigationally. And the principle that one long article is better than two stubs.
(Must remember to sig...) Zeth 16:08, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Am I the only one who finds this a violation of the Wikipedia NPOV policy?
--unsigned
It is I suppose another reason to split the modern from the ancient, see my comment above. On the other hand, the whole article is only meaningful within a Christian context. From a Jewish perspective you cannot be a 'Jewish Christian, - you are either a Gentile and thus not Jewish, or you are a true Jew and thus not Christian, or you are a Jew and you have apostacised so are no longer a true Jew.
However if you want, the line could just read "Both meanings will be given below.", without any qualifier.
Zeth 19:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC) Zeth
The article contains the following disputed statement:
"Much of the early controversy in the Church was over the issue of whether Gentiles could enter the Church directly or ought to first convert to Judaism."
The primary controversy in the early Church was circumcision, not conversion to Judaism. See Acts 15, Galatians 2, Council of Jerusalem. Circumcision is mentioned many times in the New Testament, conversion to Judaism is never mentioned. "Conversion to Judaism" is original research which is prohibited on Wikipedia: Wikipedia:No original research
--unsigned
I suppose some of what you say techically true to an extent, except that it is hardly original (any text on the subject between 1500-1970 would probably echo the article's words).
Technically speaking around 30-60 AD/BCE there was no monolithic religion of 'Judaism', no such thing as a 'church' or of 'Christianity', let alone a 'New Testament', all of which is at least a hundred years away.
Zeth 19:14, 27 July 2005 (UTC) Zeth
Wikipedia:Cite sources "Wikipedia articles should cite their sources, preferably reliable sources."
One other point: circumcision is relevant to the early Jewish Christians because Paul in Galatians 2:7-9 called them the "circumcised":
Perhaps the article should cite the NT debates regarding circumcision, as you've listed, but then add that because circumcision was generally the sign of becoming a Jew, this has been widely interpreted as a debate about whether a Gentile had to become a Jew before becoming a Christian, or even in tandem with becoming a Christian if they did not see a sharp distinction between Judaism and Christianity; in the first century that's entirely plausible.
Wesley
05:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
What reason for statements like "They are (mostly) members of Protestant and Catholic congregations" and not mentioning (former) Jews in Orthodox Christianity. Only mentioned is example of Israel ("In Israel, there is a growing number of Orthodox Christians who are of Jewish descent and conduct their worship mostly in Hebrew.") but it unfortunately has no further links. But there are (tens of) thousands of Jews converted (or grown) in Orthodox Christianity, for instance in Russia, where they retain no distinctions from other Orthodox Christians. For example I know personally several priests of Jewish descent and many laymen. Koryakov Yuri 12:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
<<The boundary between the two movements is blurred, but the differences between the two movements are such that it is not fair to treat them as one, any more than one would treat Baptists and Methodists as a single entity, for example.>> Indeed, I grew up treating Baptists and Methodists as a single entity called Non-conformists. I could never tell the difference. They sing the same hymns and share many of the lay preachers who say the same thing.
The section Contemporary Jewish Christians is completely lacking any sources whatsoever. There also seems to be a sort of conversational tone going on in there, not exactly fit for an encyclopedic resource. Last but not least, are there a lot of unnecessary quotation marks in this area or is it just me?
Examples:
Why not just keep the links wikified and let folks decide for themselves? To insert a lot of punctuation like that seems to undermine the legibility and/or the intent of the author. Your thoughts?-- Son of More 03:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
This article covers two quite distinct issues: the historic 'Jewish Christians' (on whom there is some consensus of definition) and the modern use of the term (where there is less consensus). I would propose splitting it into two articles (with cross-references and disambiguation, of course): Jewish Christians (historical) and Jewish Christians (contemporary). Can readers give their opinion here please? Smerus 11:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Despite what L. Michael White claims in his book, Incident at Antioch, Paul did pay a visit to Antioch years after the confrontation with Peter. See Acts 18:22-23, where we are told he spent some time there, on his way back to Jerusalem from his 2nd missionary journey. White also is cited, in related articles, claiming that Barnabas sided with Peter in the dispute, and using Paul's version of events to support this interpretation. Gal 2:13 simply states that Barnabas "dissembled' along with Peter and the other Jews, who had insisted on separation between Jews and Gentiles, not unlike what the Pharisees (many of whom had become believers) taught. Paul, a former Pharisee, was not fooled by this, but adhered to the decision of the council. I realize that many modern scholars consider 2 Peter to be late, and not the work of the Apostle, but let's assume for argument's sake that it is Peter's work. 2 Pet 3:15 shows Peter recommending Paul's letters along with Scripture. Clement of Rome, who probably knew both apostles, cites Peter and Paul in the same letter. When the primary sources are taken fully into account, one could conclude that White exaggerates the incident into a 'rift', and the primary sources lend credence to Paul's version of events, rather than White's modern interpretation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gzvodar ( talk • contribs)
Knanaya is just a small sect of syrian christians in Kerala. They are just like any other syrian christians. The only speciality is their endogamy practice and some rituals during the wedding. But that does not mean that they have more jewishness than other syrian christians.
It really needs a lot of help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.117.107 ( talk) 06:43, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Ret. Prof., you have been deleting unsourced assertions. Wouldn't it be better to add a citation needed tag instead? The statements might be true and they are more likely to be lost forever if you just delete them. With a citation needed tag someone might come up with a citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmeijeri ( talk • contribs) 17:00, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Much of this material, particularly that applying to adventures of saints, is not historically sound. It has been passed on as religious legend and may be taken as factual by churches, but that is not acceptable for true scholarship. The ambiguity about these historical times and the gaps in our knowledge need to be acknowledged, and the only documents that are relevant are those not obviously written by medeival Christian propogandists. 76.113.64.124 ( talk) 06:02, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
During the first years of the 20th Century, some Jews who had converted to Christianity began distancing themselves from Christian forms of worship, and began to use the term "Messianic". [1] In the 1940s and 50s, missionaries in Israel adopted the term meshichyim ("Messianics") to counter negative connotations of the word nozrim ("Christians"). The rise of Messianic Judaism was, in many ways, a logical outcome of the ideology and rhetoric of the movement to evangelize the Jews as well as its early sponsorship of various forms of Hebrew Christian expressions. The missions have promoted the idea that conversion to Christianity was acceptable for Jews. [2]
In the 1960s, in part because of the Jesus movement, Jewish groups and mainline Christians were surprised to see this rise of a vigorous movement of Jewish Christians or Christian Jews. [3] Martin Chernoff became the President of the HCAA in 1971 (until 1975), and under his leadership the movement's position shifted radically. In June 1973, a motion was made to change the name of the HCAA to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), and the name was officially changed in June 1975. According to David A. Rausch, "The name change, however, signified far more than a semantical expression — it represented an evolution in the thought processes and religious and philosophical outlook toward a more fervent expression of Jewish identity," [4] and began to eliminate the elements of Christian worship that cannot be directly linked to their Jewish roots. [5] -- DeknMike ( talk) 01:18, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
In the late 1960s and 1970s, both Jews and Christians in the United States were surprised to see the rise of a vigorous movement of Jewish Christians or Christian Jews.
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This article is focused on first century Jewish believers, and ignores Jewish believers throughout history, especially the effect of Jewish Christians, Hebrew Christians and Messianic Jews in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries. For example, the first sentence references the Judaizers in the original congregation in Jerusalem. However, that congregation likely was not call Christian, being a Hellenistic term originating in Antioch. -- DeknMike ( talk) 04:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
As this article notes, "Hebrew Christian" is another term for "Jewish Christian". Since 2006 the page Hebrew Christian has been a redirect to this article. In December, DeknMike ( talk · contribs) decided to turn the Hebrew Christian article into a WP:POVFORK of Messianic Judaism - in fact, copying significant amounts of text verbatim from the Messianic Judaism article. A discussion was held regarding what should be done about this at Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 20#Newly updated Wikipedia article "Hebrew_Christian", and the consensus was to restore the redirect. However, since then DeknMike has reverted 3 different editors, re-creating the WP:POVFORK. He has not actually explained why the material is not already or could not be covered in the Messianic Judaism or Jewish Christian articles. Is there a consensus that the "Hebrew Christian" article should be turned into a standalone article?
Can someone lease explain, first, why you're holding this discussion here instead of on that article's talk page? It seems to me to be implicitly prejudicial to hold the discussion here. Well, I see that you've notified that other article, so I guess this is fine, but I still find it odd. I'm going to take a look at the several articles in question later today when I have time; when I read just Hebrew Christian as a reader with no knowledge of the subject, I don't actually see how it's a POV fork, but perhaps if I read it more closely (or if someone explains), I'll understand better. If there is, in fact, as Zad68 says, a distinct, separate movement from the 19th century that is not the same movement as Messianic Judaism, then there should be a separate article. Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
RESOLVED: Per consensus and agreement of DeknMike at the discussion here, and because DeknMike mentioned that he would be away from editing for a few days, I completed the move of the article contents and restored the original redirect. Zad68 ( talk) 15:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
The lede was incorrect in placing without sourcing four/five terms as coequivalent, which sources indicate they are not, even if Christian Jews, Hebrew Christians reasonably redirects back here. I have broken out and added [incomplete but mainstream I hope] sources. In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:40, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
The current intro constitutes a multitude of "definitions", that should instead be placed on a disambiguation page. The article body, in contrast, is dealing mainly with the original Aramaic speaking "Christians" (Nazarenes, the original adherents of Yeshua bar-Maryam) living in Roman Judea of antiquity. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 10:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
since Jesus never claimed to be anything other that a Jew, is there a form of Judaism that acknowledges Him as the Messiah, but rejects Christianity itself?-- 99.101.160.159 ( talk) 05:08, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
The link to Christian Jews is unnecessary as it simply redirects here. - Stevertigo ( t | c) 02:03, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
when one says that a person is Jewish-Christian, what does the name so over? Have seen the term has been used in several articles, concerning a person's religious beliefs.-- 109.232.72.49 ( talk) 20:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
The article says, "A common interpretation of the circumcision controversy of the New Testament was that it was over the issue of whether Gentiles could enter the Church directly or ought to first convert to Judaism. However, the Halakha of Rabbinic Judaism was still under development at this time, as the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Jesus notes ... ." Whether or not the Halakha, (i.e., Jewish law) was under development or not, circumcision was not at issue.
The article also says, "In 1st century Pharisaic Judaism there was controversy over the significance of circumcision, for example between Hillel the Elder and Shammai." Hillel and Shammai agreed that male converts had to be circumcised; they disagreed on the treatment of converts who were already circumcised.
If there are no objections, I will amend accordingly. Marshall46 ( talk) 12:07, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Some issues:
- Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 18:46, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Reasonable debate about which title is more accurate and it has been clearly shown that reliable sources prefer the current title. Jenks24 ( talk) 04:01, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Jewish Christian →
Hebrew Christian – Jewish is a name of both a religious and ethnic society. Especially in this article and topic, we can not use the name Jewish before Christian. Because it creates a paradox. The word Hebrew must be used. Because in this article the word "Jewish" shows ethnicity and the word Christian shows "religion". Why to use ambiguity instead of clarity? For clarity, in this article and in every place where the Jewish ethnicity is meant we must use the word "Hebrew" or "Israelite" not the word Jew. Would a Hebrew Christian would call himself "I'm a Jewish Christian" or "I'm a Hebrew Christian"? He would emphasize that he is a convert so he would not use the name "Jew" which also implies religion other than ethnicity.
İskender
Balas
💬
20:38, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. No support for the proposals, but Jewish Christians may be a better title if someone wants to start an RM for that suggestion. Number 5 7 14:56, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Jewish Christian → Jewish Christianity – Consistent with other articles on movements/communities. A common term for the subject. JFH ( talk) 20:54, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. ( non-admin closure) Omni Flames ( talk) 06:59, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Jewish Christian →
First Christians – The current title "Jewish Christian" is somewhat correct, but is also confusing and might not be correct per be WP:COMMONNAME. Since the topic is early sects of Christianity (such as Nazorenes, Abionites, etc), we do find much references to "First Christians" and "Early Christians" in the academic debate in order to refer to those initial Christian communities in Roman Judaea and Syria (
[1] and
[2]), while "Jewish Christian" is both referring to modern Messianic Jews or Judaizing Christian sects and First/Early Christians (see
[3]).
GreyShark (
dibra)
06:15, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
*Support but would prefer Early Christians. A "Jewish Christian" could easily refer to
Messianic Jews or an early Jew who believed Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.
Ḉɱ̍
2nd anniv.
14:32, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
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I've merged Split of Early Christianity and Judaism and Origins of Christianity into this article, per Talk:History of Christianity#Too many pages on the history of Early Christianity, due to the overlap of scope and content. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:57, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
I am new to Wikipedia editing. It is quite overwhelming. I am retired and have discretionary time to devote to this endeavour. I have been a reader and student of early civilizations, Roman Empire and comparative religion for many years. I have been looking for articles within my areas of interest That need improvement. It is evident that this article, that was a candidate for deletion despite substantial scholarship on the matter, needs substantial improvement in terms of editing and scholarship. Some of the text stands on single sources, and does not include the latest research and scholarship. I will make sure that my contributions substantiated by references of leading active researchers. Is anyone actively interested/working on this article? [[User:A19470822|
Some Christian Jews are not accepted in either sects of Jewish and Christian branches. Specifically Jews do to some belief, look at this as a form of exile to Judaism. As to some Christians. Jewish Christians sometimes Call Jesus many different titles or names. Example, Rabbi, Teacher, Lord, Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, Ese and more as look back in history. Jewish Christian accept Sacrifice of one self is an accepted new way instead of taking life as a Sacrifice. The new Way of Sacrifice is replaced with selflessness. Selfless acts proves to change outcomes in very positive ways. That's what most Jewish Christians believe in. We also follow The Commandments and The Golden Rule. We also understand following religion instead GOD leads to Chaos and Destruction. Rabbi, David,Peter,Wright; Jewish Christian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.141.101 ( talk) 16:34, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
One of the sentences in the introduction paragraph goes "Christianity started with Jewish eschatological expectations, and it developed into the worship of a deified Jesus after his earthly ministry, his crucifixion, and the post-crucifixion experiences of his followers." surely, "and his resurrection" should be in there? Isn't this what Christianity is about, believing in the resurrection of Jesus? dh74g3y ( talk) 20:44, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
This sentence:
is probably not saying what it was meant to say. I'm not certain enough of its intended meaning to fix it, however. Please help. Jason Fruit ( talk) 14:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Whether or not there should be such a term as "Jewish Christians" is not the point here. The only point is that the term currently exists. Since it does, is this an adequate discussion of it? Rlquall 2057 14 Jul 2004 UTC
Please don't take this personally, Sam, as you're not the first to suggest this merger. I have reverted the comment, however, as I know quite a lot of people in both the Messianic and Hebrew Christian movements, and many if not most of them would not agree that they are one and the same thing. Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians have a lot in common: both are (mostly) persons of acknowledged birth or ancestry who (a) believe that Yeshua/Jesus is the Messiah, and (b) are proud of their Jewish heritage and want to retain it. But there are also significant differences between the two movements - differences that are big enough to justify the case for separate classification, in my opinion. A parallel case would be Baptists and Methodists: both are Protestants, but that doesn't make them the same thing, and Wikipedia rightly has separate articles for those two denominations.
I'm grossly oversimplifying things, I know, but in a nutshell:
The boundary between the two movements is blurred; some individuals (e.g. Moishe Rosen) seem to straddle it effortlessly, but it is there nonetheless. Because of the differences between the two movements, I do not think it fair to treat them as one, any more than I would treat Baptists and Methodists as a single entity. David Cannon 05:29, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Currently this article covers two rather unrelated subjects. I'd prefer to split off the part relating to Early Christianity but don't know which would be the most common English name. In German, "Judenchristen" quite unambigously refers to Early Christianity. -- Pjacobi July 8, 2005 17:43 (UTC)
I am not happy with the suggestion to merge this article with Judeo-Christian. The two concepts are not closely related. Jewish Christians is about people who define themselves as Christians who are ethnically Jewish. Judeo-Christian is about a set of moral and social beliefs, mooted by their followers to be rooted in the Old Testament and therefore in the Jewish and Christian traditions. There are Jews and Christians who hold to "Judeo-Christian" views as well as followers of both religions who disagree; there are also some who subscribe to neither faith who nevertheless promote "Judeo-Christian" ideals. Jewish Christians, however, are a faith community, not a set of beliefs. David Cannon 12:31, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
The 'Judeo-Christian' tradition is another way of saying the 'western cultural' tradition. This is used because it is considered less antisemitic than saying something like 'the Christian cultural tradition' which is often thought to devalue the role of the Hebrew Bible and Jewish culture on western civilisation.
On the other hand, "Jewish Christians" is often used by academics in discussing early Church history. The story goes that early proto-Christians (also sometimes called Nazarenes) were in fact a very small sect among many that were far more important e.g. Essenes, Sadducees, Pharisees, Qumran sect, Zealots, etc etc. Later on after the Jewish revolt and the Roman sacking of the temple, all these sects came together into the two glorious movements Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.
Well thats the story at least...
I hope I don't offend whoever put the notice there but I have removed it as the person who put it there was either in a massive rush (and won't mind us removing it) or really is not qualified to mod this area (and so won't mind us removing it).
It really is a bit of a tweedle-dum error which could have been picked up with a dictionary. No one has written in favour of merging it and never will because it really does not make any sense from any perspective to do so.
Anyway the notice looked a bit like this:
It has been suggested that this article or section be merged with Judeo-Christian. (Discuss)
The other debate was about whether to split the modern from the ancient, i.e, the early proto-Christians from modern believers in Christianity from a Jewish ethnicity. That could be done to the extent that you can find a term for each (or have a disambiguation aid). In general that would be a good idea, although there may be good arguments against it navigationally. And the principle that one long article is better than two stubs.
(Must remember to sig...) Zeth 16:08, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Am I the only one who finds this a violation of the Wikipedia NPOV policy?
--unsigned
It is I suppose another reason to split the modern from the ancient, see my comment above. On the other hand, the whole article is only meaningful within a Christian context. From a Jewish perspective you cannot be a 'Jewish Christian, - you are either a Gentile and thus not Jewish, or you are a true Jew and thus not Christian, or you are a Jew and you have apostacised so are no longer a true Jew.
However if you want, the line could just read "Both meanings will be given below.", without any qualifier.
Zeth 19:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC) Zeth
The article contains the following disputed statement:
"Much of the early controversy in the Church was over the issue of whether Gentiles could enter the Church directly or ought to first convert to Judaism."
The primary controversy in the early Church was circumcision, not conversion to Judaism. See Acts 15, Galatians 2, Council of Jerusalem. Circumcision is mentioned many times in the New Testament, conversion to Judaism is never mentioned. "Conversion to Judaism" is original research which is prohibited on Wikipedia: Wikipedia:No original research
--unsigned
I suppose some of what you say techically true to an extent, except that it is hardly original (any text on the subject between 1500-1970 would probably echo the article's words).
Technically speaking around 30-60 AD/BCE there was no monolithic religion of 'Judaism', no such thing as a 'church' or of 'Christianity', let alone a 'New Testament', all of which is at least a hundred years away.
Zeth 19:14, 27 July 2005 (UTC) Zeth
Wikipedia:Cite sources "Wikipedia articles should cite their sources, preferably reliable sources."
One other point: circumcision is relevant to the early Jewish Christians because Paul in Galatians 2:7-9 called them the "circumcised":
Perhaps the article should cite the NT debates regarding circumcision, as you've listed, but then add that because circumcision was generally the sign of becoming a Jew, this has been widely interpreted as a debate about whether a Gentile had to become a Jew before becoming a Christian, or even in tandem with becoming a Christian if they did not see a sharp distinction between Judaism and Christianity; in the first century that's entirely plausible.
Wesley
05:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
What reason for statements like "They are (mostly) members of Protestant and Catholic congregations" and not mentioning (former) Jews in Orthodox Christianity. Only mentioned is example of Israel ("In Israel, there is a growing number of Orthodox Christians who are of Jewish descent and conduct their worship mostly in Hebrew.") but it unfortunately has no further links. But there are (tens of) thousands of Jews converted (or grown) in Orthodox Christianity, for instance in Russia, where they retain no distinctions from other Orthodox Christians. For example I know personally several priests of Jewish descent and many laymen. Koryakov Yuri 12:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
<<The boundary between the two movements is blurred, but the differences between the two movements are such that it is not fair to treat them as one, any more than one would treat Baptists and Methodists as a single entity, for example.>> Indeed, I grew up treating Baptists and Methodists as a single entity called Non-conformists. I could never tell the difference. They sing the same hymns and share many of the lay preachers who say the same thing.
The section Contemporary Jewish Christians is completely lacking any sources whatsoever. There also seems to be a sort of conversational tone going on in there, not exactly fit for an encyclopedic resource. Last but not least, are there a lot of unnecessary quotation marks in this area or is it just me?
Examples:
Why not just keep the links wikified and let folks decide for themselves? To insert a lot of punctuation like that seems to undermine the legibility and/or the intent of the author. Your thoughts?-- Son of More 03:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
This article covers two quite distinct issues: the historic 'Jewish Christians' (on whom there is some consensus of definition) and the modern use of the term (where there is less consensus). I would propose splitting it into two articles (with cross-references and disambiguation, of course): Jewish Christians (historical) and Jewish Christians (contemporary). Can readers give their opinion here please? Smerus 11:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Despite what L. Michael White claims in his book, Incident at Antioch, Paul did pay a visit to Antioch years after the confrontation with Peter. See Acts 18:22-23, where we are told he spent some time there, on his way back to Jerusalem from his 2nd missionary journey. White also is cited, in related articles, claiming that Barnabas sided with Peter in the dispute, and using Paul's version of events to support this interpretation. Gal 2:13 simply states that Barnabas "dissembled' along with Peter and the other Jews, who had insisted on separation between Jews and Gentiles, not unlike what the Pharisees (many of whom had become believers) taught. Paul, a former Pharisee, was not fooled by this, but adhered to the decision of the council. I realize that many modern scholars consider 2 Peter to be late, and not the work of the Apostle, but let's assume for argument's sake that it is Peter's work. 2 Pet 3:15 shows Peter recommending Paul's letters along with Scripture. Clement of Rome, who probably knew both apostles, cites Peter and Paul in the same letter. When the primary sources are taken fully into account, one could conclude that White exaggerates the incident into a 'rift', and the primary sources lend credence to Paul's version of events, rather than White's modern interpretation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gzvodar ( talk • contribs)
Knanaya is just a small sect of syrian christians in Kerala. They are just like any other syrian christians. The only speciality is their endogamy practice and some rituals during the wedding. But that does not mean that they have more jewishness than other syrian christians.
It really needs a lot of help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.117.107 ( talk) 06:43, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Ret. Prof., you have been deleting unsourced assertions. Wouldn't it be better to add a citation needed tag instead? The statements might be true and they are more likely to be lost forever if you just delete them. With a citation needed tag someone might come up with a citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmeijeri ( talk • contribs) 17:00, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Much of this material, particularly that applying to adventures of saints, is not historically sound. It has been passed on as religious legend and may be taken as factual by churches, but that is not acceptable for true scholarship. The ambiguity about these historical times and the gaps in our knowledge need to be acknowledged, and the only documents that are relevant are those not obviously written by medeival Christian propogandists. 76.113.64.124 ( talk) 06:02, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
During the first years of the 20th Century, some Jews who had converted to Christianity began distancing themselves from Christian forms of worship, and began to use the term "Messianic". [1] In the 1940s and 50s, missionaries in Israel adopted the term meshichyim ("Messianics") to counter negative connotations of the word nozrim ("Christians"). The rise of Messianic Judaism was, in many ways, a logical outcome of the ideology and rhetoric of the movement to evangelize the Jews as well as its early sponsorship of various forms of Hebrew Christian expressions. The missions have promoted the idea that conversion to Christianity was acceptable for Jews. [2]
In the 1960s, in part because of the Jesus movement, Jewish groups and mainline Christians were surprised to see this rise of a vigorous movement of Jewish Christians or Christian Jews. [3] Martin Chernoff became the President of the HCAA in 1971 (until 1975), and under his leadership the movement's position shifted radically. In June 1973, a motion was made to change the name of the HCAA to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), and the name was officially changed in June 1975. According to David A. Rausch, "The name change, however, signified far more than a semantical expression — it represented an evolution in the thought processes and religious and philosophical outlook toward a more fervent expression of Jewish identity," [4] and began to eliminate the elements of Christian worship that cannot be directly linked to their Jewish roots. [5] -- DeknMike ( talk) 01:18, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
In the late 1960s and 1970s, both Jews and Christians in the United States were surprised to see the rise of a vigorous movement of Jewish Christians or Christian Jews.
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This article is focused on first century Jewish believers, and ignores Jewish believers throughout history, especially the effect of Jewish Christians, Hebrew Christians and Messianic Jews in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries. For example, the first sentence references the Judaizers in the original congregation in Jerusalem. However, that congregation likely was not call Christian, being a Hellenistic term originating in Antioch. -- DeknMike ( talk) 04:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
As this article notes, "Hebrew Christian" is another term for "Jewish Christian". Since 2006 the page Hebrew Christian has been a redirect to this article. In December, DeknMike ( talk · contribs) decided to turn the Hebrew Christian article into a WP:POVFORK of Messianic Judaism - in fact, copying significant amounts of text verbatim from the Messianic Judaism article. A discussion was held regarding what should be done about this at Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 20#Newly updated Wikipedia article "Hebrew_Christian", and the consensus was to restore the redirect. However, since then DeknMike has reverted 3 different editors, re-creating the WP:POVFORK. He has not actually explained why the material is not already or could not be covered in the Messianic Judaism or Jewish Christian articles. Is there a consensus that the "Hebrew Christian" article should be turned into a standalone article?
Can someone lease explain, first, why you're holding this discussion here instead of on that article's talk page? It seems to me to be implicitly prejudicial to hold the discussion here. Well, I see that you've notified that other article, so I guess this is fine, but I still find it odd. I'm going to take a look at the several articles in question later today when I have time; when I read just Hebrew Christian as a reader with no knowledge of the subject, I don't actually see how it's a POV fork, but perhaps if I read it more closely (or if someone explains), I'll understand better. If there is, in fact, as Zad68 says, a distinct, separate movement from the 19th century that is not the same movement as Messianic Judaism, then there should be a separate article. Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
RESOLVED: Per consensus and agreement of DeknMike at the discussion here, and because DeknMike mentioned that he would be away from editing for a few days, I completed the move of the article contents and restored the original redirect. Zad68 ( talk) 15:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
The lede was incorrect in placing without sourcing four/five terms as coequivalent, which sources indicate they are not, even if Christian Jews, Hebrew Christians reasonably redirects back here. I have broken out and added [incomplete but mainstream I hope] sources. In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:40, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
The current intro constitutes a multitude of "definitions", that should instead be placed on a disambiguation page. The article body, in contrast, is dealing mainly with the original Aramaic speaking "Christians" (Nazarenes, the original adherents of Yeshua bar-Maryam) living in Roman Judea of antiquity. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 10:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
since Jesus never claimed to be anything other that a Jew, is there a form of Judaism that acknowledges Him as the Messiah, but rejects Christianity itself?-- 99.101.160.159 ( talk) 05:08, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
The link to Christian Jews is unnecessary as it simply redirects here. - Stevertigo ( t | c) 02:03, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
when one says that a person is Jewish-Christian, what does the name so over? Have seen the term has been used in several articles, concerning a person's religious beliefs.-- 109.232.72.49 ( talk) 20:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
The article says, "A common interpretation of the circumcision controversy of the New Testament was that it was over the issue of whether Gentiles could enter the Church directly or ought to first convert to Judaism. However, the Halakha of Rabbinic Judaism was still under development at this time, as the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Jesus notes ... ." Whether or not the Halakha, (i.e., Jewish law) was under development or not, circumcision was not at issue.
The article also says, "In 1st century Pharisaic Judaism there was controversy over the significance of circumcision, for example between Hillel the Elder and Shammai." Hillel and Shammai agreed that male converts had to be circumcised; they disagreed on the treatment of converts who were already circumcised.
If there are no objections, I will amend accordingly. Marshall46 ( talk) 12:07, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Some issues:
- Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 18:46, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Reasonable debate about which title is more accurate and it has been clearly shown that reliable sources prefer the current title. Jenks24 ( talk) 04:01, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Jewish Christian →
Hebrew Christian – Jewish is a name of both a religious and ethnic society. Especially in this article and topic, we can not use the name Jewish before Christian. Because it creates a paradox. The word Hebrew must be used. Because in this article the word "Jewish" shows ethnicity and the word Christian shows "religion". Why to use ambiguity instead of clarity? For clarity, in this article and in every place where the Jewish ethnicity is meant we must use the word "Hebrew" or "Israelite" not the word Jew. Would a Hebrew Christian would call himself "I'm a Jewish Christian" or "I'm a Hebrew Christian"? He would emphasize that he is a convert so he would not use the name "Jew" which also implies religion other than ethnicity.
İskender
Balas
💬
20:38, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. No support for the proposals, but Jewish Christians may be a better title if someone wants to start an RM for that suggestion. Number 5 7 14:56, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Jewish Christian → Jewish Christianity – Consistent with other articles on movements/communities. A common term for the subject. JFH ( talk) 20:54, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. ( non-admin closure) Omni Flames ( talk) 06:59, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Jewish Christian →
First Christians – The current title "Jewish Christian" is somewhat correct, but is also confusing and might not be correct per be WP:COMMONNAME. Since the topic is early sects of Christianity (such as Nazorenes, Abionites, etc), we do find much references to "First Christians" and "Early Christians" in the academic debate in order to refer to those initial Christian communities in Roman Judaea and Syria (
[1] and
[2]), while "Jewish Christian" is both referring to modern Messianic Jews or Judaizing Christian sects and First/Early Christians (see
[3]).
GreyShark (
dibra)
06:15, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
*Support but would prefer Early Christians. A "Jewish Christian" could easily refer to
Messianic Jews or an early Jew who believed Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.
Ḉɱ̍
2nd anniv.
14:32, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
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I've merged Split of Early Christianity and Judaism and Origins of Christianity into this article, per Talk:History of Christianity#Too many pages on the history of Early Christianity, due to the overlap of scope and content. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:57, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
I am new to Wikipedia editing. It is quite overwhelming. I am retired and have discretionary time to devote to this endeavour. I have been a reader and student of early civilizations, Roman Empire and comparative religion for many years. I have been looking for articles within my areas of interest That need improvement. It is evident that this article, that was a candidate for deletion despite substantial scholarship on the matter, needs substantial improvement in terms of editing and scholarship. Some of the text stands on single sources, and does not include the latest research and scholarship. I will make sure that my contributions substantiated by references of leading active researchers. Is anyone actively interested/working on this article? [[User:A19470822|
Some Christian Jews are not accepted in either sects of Jewish and Christian branches. Specifically Jews do to some belief, look at this as a form of exile to Judaism. As to some Christians. Jewish Christians sometimes Call Jesus many different titles or names. Example, Rabbi, Teacher, Lord, Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, Ese and more as look back in history. Jewish Christian accept Sacrifice of one self is an accepted new way instead of taking life as a Sacrifice. The new Way of Sacrifice is replaced with selflessness. Selfless acts proves to change outcomes in very positive ways. That's what most Jewish Christians believe in. We also follow The Commandments and The Golden Rule. We also understand following religion instead GOD leads to Chaos and Destruction. Rabbi, David,Peter,Wright; Jewish Christian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.141.101 ( talk) 16:34, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
One of the sentences in the introduction paragraph goes "Christianity started with Jewish eschatological expectations, and it developed into the worship of a deified Jesus after his earthly ministry, his crucifixion, and the post-crucifixion experiences of his followers." surely, "and his resurrection" should be in there? Isn't this what Christianity is about, believing in the resurrection of Jesus? dh74g3y ( talk) 20:44, 4 January 2021 (UTC)