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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Indeed amusing, but once is enough. Perhaps the IP's point is that the article is what is technically known in the field as "crap"? You have to wonder when "....in modern scholarship since the 19th century, that Jesus Christ has striking parallels to other deities worshipped in Hellenistic religion, specifically to the cult of Dionysus in the Greek mystery religions [comma missing] and with the Buddha." since modern scholarship as a whole notes no such thing about Dionysus, and with Buddha, that would be fringe among fringe. At least the Buddha nonsense could go. In ictu oculi ( talk) 04:24, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
That's pretty funny - I had never heard of "pastafarianism" :-) And yes, Apparently, this "crappy" article is an attempt by some religious-minded types to counter some of the literature that is contrary to their beliefs.
It seems pretty clear that there are some general connections with Hellenistic beliefs (heaven and hell, immediate afterlife in one of those spiritual realms versus the "sleep of death" while waiting for a mass resurrection of God's people and the start of his righteous kingdom on earth). And from what I have read, it is also apparent that there are some connections to "Osiris-Dionysus" in particular (turning water into wine, the anointment of Jesus, the eucharist ritual, etc.)... But I don't see a parallel between Christian beliefs and Buddhism, or between the life of Jesus and the life of Buddha.
I am not in a position to espouse the idea of a link to Hellenistic beliefs, but I am certainly not the first or only person to have noted such a possibility. And if an article is supposed to be about "Jesus and Comparative Mythology" (The story of Jesus/Christian beliefs, compared to similar Pagan deities and beliefs), then a section that is titled "New Testament Narrative" should at least have some relevance to the rest of the article (such as note the portions of the NT narrative that might have resulted from such links).
PS: If you have any interest in what the gospels actually say, and in what the first gospel most likely said (and in what ways, and why the experts got it all wrong), you should go to Amazon and check out: "Did Jesus Really Say That?!! - A Restoration of the First Gospel" (or at least download the free sample for Kindle). 76.28.177.80 ( talk) 15:43, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
this page is badly organised, there should be clear cut table and lists for similarities between (Christian Jesus,Islamic Jesus,Jewish Jesus) and Horus and mythat etc for people to decide if the similarities are random or not — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambelland ( talk • contribs) 22:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Added original research tag to the statement: "Among the comparanda, observation of mere mythic universals or "archetypes" needs to be distinguished from claims of historical influence, or common historical origin. Only when features can be shown to be parallel in highly specific detail can a common origin be assumed."
Samuel Sandmel does not make any of these statements in the citation given. Sandmel's argument in the essay was "The key word in my essay is extravagance. I am speaking words of caution about exaggerations about the parallels".
This may not be the same as asking for "highly specific detail". Moreover Sandmel seems like someone associated with Society of Biblical Literature. Does it not violate NPOV as the source might be biased? -- Alex ( talk) 16:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Changed some very subjective text that doesn't seem to belong in the Ancient Egypt area. Starting with "Most contemporary Egyptologists believe these parallels are not true and are pseudo-scientific," two of the references are dead, and every other reference offers no facts that supports the statement that precedes it.
Next the wiki points out that "W. Ward Gasque conducted a world-wide poll of twenty leading Egyptologists to verify if there was any academic support for these claims. The scholars were unanimous in dismissing the claimed parallels." In looking at the reference, the only time the Egyptologists ("leading" according to the author) were unanimous was in dismissing the suggested etymologies for Jesus and Christ. While nothing in the reference indicates that they were unanimous on any other aspect of the claims Gasque attempted to dispute, apparently someone felt inclined to write that they were unanimous in disputing all claims. The reference itself is devoid of certain facts (such as Alvin Boyd Kuhn having a Phd).
The subjective writing for this wiki is most obvious with the comment "Although considered fringe pseudo-science, Massey's views..." That sort of wording simply doesn't belong. 184.46.93.221 ( talk) 09:13, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Is there a BA nomination process? This article is so full of original research, error after error it is laughable. And it has advert links in it, say:
The first sentence is flatly rejected by scholars. What scholarship says is:
And the Society of Consciousness maybe a subconscious spam link, who knows...
The Buddhism section has a 1873 and a 1906 reference... Both predate WWI and are outdated non-WP:RS items.
Even a statement within the lede has a citation needed tag on it! And the Old Testament section and the single Q statement there and the Isiah assumption is both non-representative of scholarly views, and WP:OR.
And the list goes on.... This needs a rewrite by someone - myself excluded. History2007 ( talk) 17:39, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
On that note, I took another look and I do not even know why the sections are what they are and there seems to be confusion all around. The title of the article is "comparative mythology" and there is a section on that. But it is treated on the same level as other items, and what gets compared is not clearly structured. There are a few elements to compare to:
I would bundle the Mithraic elements within the Roman as a subsection given that they were 1st/2nd century and not very old like the Egyptian items. The Egyptian section is just loaded, loaded with WP:OR and uses texts about Egypt that have no references to Christianity, but juxtaposes them to draw analogies that are not present in the sources. That is just pure WP:OR. And using the great, great scholarship of Bill Maher is jus breathtaking. Where does Maher teach? Oxford? Harvard? Stanford? Or the comedy channel? The sourcing in this article is a sad joke. Just a joke.
The issue of the Old Testament is a very different game, because early Christianity directly quoted the OT anyway, and the NT inherently refers to the OT. So that needs a small section, but is really not a big issue here, and belongs in the Christianity and Judaism article. There is plenty of material of a far higher quality in that article and there is no point in doing a botched representation of that. It just needs a smaller section with a Main link there.
Then there is a section that tries to repeat the Christ myth theory page, but again does not do a good job at all. And this article seems to have been stuck during the Calvin Coolidge administration, and keeps using sources from 1927. Those are no longer WP:RS and were outdated long before Wikipedia stared. I think that should also become just a higher quality shorter section with a Main to Christ Myth theory.
If that is done, the confusion index here will drop. History2007 ( talk) 08:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Opinions of a mythical Christ originate in the late 18th century with Charles François Dupuis.[59] In works published in the 1790s, both argued...
Who are "both" in this context? -- Syzygy ( talk) 11:40, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
In the videos Zeitgeist and Religulous, we find lists comparing Horus and Jesus. However, no mention of that is made in the article (or here in Talk). I'd like to see those lists either substantiated or refuted. Maybe such would require a separate article. Is there one? After I saw one or the other video (or both), I tried to find either confirmation or refutation online, but was unsuccessful at the time. Perhaps there are historically-based point-by-point discussions (not just people arguing) about those that editors here can point us to? LInks? :) Thanks! Misty MH ( talk) 13:22, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Maybe someone here could actually create a separate article that focuses on each point in both of those lists (Zeitgeist and Religulous). Anyone Egypt- and Horus-savvy enough? It'll need Citations! :D Misty MH ( talk) 00:48, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, was Massey's comparison between Herod and Herrut based on aspects of Herod that are not accounted by historical sources, such as Herod's personality that somehow transfered from Herrut? This would be interesting to mention... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.80.79.77 ( talk) 15:01, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Any reason why there is no mention of Buddha's birth in this article? Seems pertinent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(mother_of_Buddha) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.80.79.77 ( talk) 14:56, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
I'd be interested to know how weakness and strength in parallels are measured, and therefore relevance in mentioning them in the article. Also, what are the criteria for classifying information/theory as "fringe?" I'm not being argumentative; I just want to know how one determines what goes in the article and what doesn't.
If the purpose of the article is to articulate the features of the Christ figure (as it has evolved) in Christian culture and how those features parallel with other religious/mythical/archetypal figures before and after the time of the historical Jesus, I would think that the birth story in the Gospel of Luke, which seems a very prominent aspect of the mythical Jesus figure, would be relevant to discuss parallels to. Lehel Kovach ( talk) 13:54, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
At present we've got a persistent IP editor adding unsourced content to this and another article. Feel free to revert and block on site, no additional warnings required. If the editor persists in IP hopping, then I'll protect the article, but I'd rather not if it can be avoided. Rklawton ( talk) 02:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
If you can't handle the subject matter because you're a bible-thumper closed to research and speculation, then leave the page alone. This isn't the "Refute Jesus is Mythology" page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.64.0.20 ( talk) 21:54, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
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In the Overview, the phrase "and most scholars agree that any such historical influence is entirely implausible given that first century monotheistic Galilean Jews would not have been open to pagan stories." implies that the "entire implausibility" of pagan influence is a FACT, to which "most scholars agree". A more unbiased statement would be "any such historical influence would be entirely implausible", although the rest of the article argues against such uniqueness and isolation of the N.T. writers. Marcostelias ( talk) 16:23, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
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Mz7 (
talk) 01:26, 15 May 2014 (UTC)This section is a summary of the main article Christ Myth Theory. The definition of the CMT is currently disputed, and this article is carrying a definition which is not as per the reliable sources. Please see the talk page at Christ Myth Theory for the specific details of the dispute. Wdford ( talk) 15:27, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
ERROR: "there is no evidence of a historical influence by the pagan myths such as dying and rising gods on the authors of the New Testament"
Of COURSE there is no evidence about the NT authors. What this neat obfuscatory technique does is distract from whence the pagan influence MAY have come. And of course, absence of evidence is not evidence of absense. Some open minds might be useful:
1) Abraham, who hailed from Ur in Sumer in Mesopotamia in Iraq -- who KNOWS what gods he was exposed to and what he took with him and discarded en route from Iraq to the Jerusalem Metropolitan area and monotheism.
2) The Jews have a lot of experience with Egypt: Moses, the Red Sea thing, who knows what Egyptian gods might have crossed the Red Sea with them.
3) The Jews also had a lot of exposure to the gods of Nebuchadnezzar.
4) The "Wise Men from the East" suggest Zoroastrian influence on Christianity -- and perhaps on the Hebrew religion. Zoroastrianism (Zarathustra) is also an apocalyptic religion based in never-ending battled between good and evil and could have influence both the Hebrew and Christian religions as well as Islam. Or erhaps this is a meme which springs forth eternal unbidden in all human religions?
5) The clincher: the snake tempts Eve with the fruit by telling her "ye will be as gods" -- incorrectly translated in most accounts as "ye shall surely not die"..." Lethomme ( talk) 22:45, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Kessler on pagan monotheism"
You have made your Bold move, which has been Reverted by two different wikipedians and now needs to be Discussed first before it can be added back. This is standard Wikipedia policy and cannot be negotiated. Edit-warring will not be tolerated and may lead to a block. It doesn't matter whether you are right or not, you need to establish consensus first. The correct place to bring up arguments is right here on Talk, not in further edit summaries. Martijn Meijering ( talk) 15:30, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
This entire article is less about "Jesus Christ in comparative mythology" than a dogmatic dismissal of all attempts to note (in a scholarly manner) that there are indeed mythic parallels between Christianity and other religions. Derrick Chapman 15:23, 15 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Derrickchapman ( talk • contribs)
I refer to the pattern followed by most paragraphs, in which a parallel is noted, then dismissed with a sentence effectively saying most Biblical scholars refute the parallel. Derrick Chapman 22:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Derrickchapman ( talk • contribs)
This page needs to be taken down or heavily edited, it speaks from an obviously biased perspective that ignores a large body of research, including acknowledged historical documents that contain similarities to the Jesus mythos. Also overexaggerates consensus among non-affiliated researchers. No mention anywhere of the stories with major similarities that do overlap and pre-date. Probably best to just take it down.
An editor is trying to assert that 'pagan' simply means 'non-Christian', which makes the sentence they are editing self-contradictory. Early Christians observed Jewish customs, which are inherently non-Christian.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 01:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
The passage about Porters stance ( /info/en/?search=Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology#Ancient_Egypt) is identical to one on the Gerald Massey Article ( /info/en/?search=Gerald_Massey#Criticism). This may constitute Close Paraphrasing as described in the wikipedia guidelines, although it is not paraphrased, but more or less identical. As one cannot edit this article, maybe an admin can look over this issue. ( 79.255.192.47 ( talk) 13:01, 24 September 2015 (UTC))
The result of the proposal was move per request. In a descriptive title like this one, we normally use the parent article's title, unless it would be confusing in context. Here, it is difficult to even imagine a scenario where a person would find Jesus to be ambiguous without Christ appended.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 19:21, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Jesus Christ in comparative mythology → Jesus in comparative mythology – I would've thought this would be sufficiently uncontroversial to do it myself, but a move to this title was reverted a few years ago, referring to talk page discussion. There hasn't been an RM, though some discussion in Archive 1 shows the rationale for "Christ" being that the article discusses Jesus as Messiah. But so do many Jesus articles. I don't think that's a good reason to deviate from the parent article, Jesus, or WP:CONCISE. -- BDD ( talk) 18:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
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Right now this article does its damnedest to portray Christianity as an exceptional religion that somehow appeared in a vacuum, exactly followed it scriptural narrative, and had no influence from the world around it. It stands as an example of how writing about Christianity in the west presents unique challenges: How many of these "scholarly sources" are in fact defenses of the religion—in this case Christianity—that the author holds? How many of these sources are from Christian institutions? How many of these sources are actually from people working in relevant fields, such as folkloristics, rather than theology and religious studies? This is a real issue with this article as well as Christ myth theory, another minefield of an article. Right now this article is a total mess. :bloodofox: ( talk) 20:12, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree with the above comments. This is the single worst article I've read on Wikipedia. No attempt is made at all to adopt a neutral point of view. It's nonsensical. Liamcalling ( talk) 01:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Not to get too echo-ey here, but have to agree with the above. I was curious about the subject, came here, and am left feeling like I need to look elsewhere to get any sort of useful academic view on the subject. 92.238.177.129 ( talk) 10:55, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
@ Bloodofox: Sandmel's criticism of comparisons between Jesus and pagan figures is not at all fringe. I hope I do not offend you when I say that I am getting a distinct impression that you are very unfamiliar with New Testament scholarship. The fact is that it is generally agreed that pagan influence on Christianity comes only from the later strata of the religion, after it had become a predominantly Gentile religion largely detached from its original Jewish roots (a shift which happened in the late first century after the Synoptic Gospels were written). Thus, the gospels of Mark and Matthew are usually thought to be either totally free from pagan influence or, if there are pagan influences in them, they are not observable. Instead, the primary influence on them is Jewish tradition. The Gospel of Matthew in particular is known for its markedly Jewish character and it was at one point used by the Ebionites, an early sect of Judaizing Christians. The Gospel of Luke is a bit more of an open question, with some scholars arguing that, in this gospel, Jesus may be starting to show some features of a pagan divine-man; this is, of course, still disputed. The Gospel of John was definitely influenced by Platonism and it may have also been influenced to some extent by Greco-Roman paganism, though even this is still hotly disputed. The parallels between Dionysus and the portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel of John that you refer to are indeed a legitimate area of scholarly inquiry, but it is by no means widely accepted that the Gospel of John was influenced by Dionysus. (Indeed, many scholars have proposed equally credible explanations that the wine imagery in the gospel may simply be based on passages from the Old Testament.)
Furthermore, what Sandmel is actually criticizing is not the study of legitimate pagan influence on later Christianity, but rather the massive quantity of material that has been produced - primarily by a regrettable strand of remarkably shoddy scholarship in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, as well as some more recent writings produced by amateurs - adducing wildly exaggerated parallels to Jesus based on even slightest superficial similarities (or even sometimes completely nonexistent ones). The "parallelomania" he describes has largely been expelled from mainstream scholarship, but it is still very common among supporters of the fringe Christ Myth theory, who often invent and exaggerate parallels far beyond reality. One representative example of this trend described by Maurice Casey is the notion propounded by some Christ Myth theorists that the word "Christ" is somehow derived from the Sanskrit name of the Hindu god Krishna, despite the fact that "Christ" is an ordinary Greek word meaning "anointed one" that existed long before Jesus and it already has a completely mundane etymology unrelated to Krishna. Another example is the interpretation of a story in which Krishna is killed by being shot through the heel as some kind of crucifixion. Even for the deities who may have legitimately influenced later Christian views on Jesus, there are still all kinds of wild speculations. For instance, there is credible reason to think that Egyptian portrayals of Isis nursing Horus may have influenced Christian depictions of the Virgin Mary nursing Jesus, but, aside from this (at least as far as I am currently aware), there is no evidence to support the idea that any of the other supposed parallels between them that have been propounded over the years thanks to the humorous ineptitude of Gerald Massey have any veracity behind them. -- Katolophyromai ( talk) 01:28, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Just an anonymous reader browsing, but I agree with the earlier talk. Worst bias I have personally ever seen on Wikipedia. There is a noticeable lack of inclusion of the mythology of a variety of religions in addition to previously noted issues. If this is an article attempting to compare the mythological life of christ to the lives of other god/martyr figures throughout history, a broader series of topics than the 6 most cherrypicked and disputable instances might be a good idea. Fully agreee with below talk, this article reads like scholars nearly universally agree christ was unique and christianity didn't borrow any themes from his life from other places. That's simply not factual in any way whatsoever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.37.92.31 ( talk) 05:06, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm noticing a very heavy reliance on works by Bart D. Ehrman, a theologian. This is particularly notable so far in our section on Mithras. Ehrman is by no means a specialist on the topic of Mithras and classical mystery cults, and I believe that we should be using superior sources than Ehrman's general audience-aimed book length argument for the historicity of Jesus (Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, notably published by HarperCollins's HarperOne imprint rather than an academic press).
There exists many, many peer-reviewed works by classicists on this topic and the general topic of mystery religions in the classical world and their influence on Christianity, and I see no evident reason to lean so strongly into Ehrman's book. Surely we can do a lot better. Additionally, when scholars interject opinions, we must be very careful about attributing those opinions to maintain neutrality. I've noticed a few incidents where that hasn't been the case so far in this article. :bloodofox: ( talk) 23:17, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
@ Katolophyromai:, I'd like to thank you for bringing in material by Alan Dundes on this topic. It's something I've been meaning to do. I think we should consider bringing in some of his commentary regarding the approaches of theologians and folklorist neglect of this material, as he makes some unique and very on-topic points. :bloodofox: ( talk) 21:22, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Indeed amusing, but once is enough. Perhaps the IP's point is that the article is what is technically known in the field as "crap"? You have to wonder when "....in modern scholarship since the 19th century, that Jesus Christ has striking parallels to other deities worshipped in Hellenistic religion, specifically to the cult of Dionysus in the Greek mystery religions [comma missing] and with the Buddha." since modern scholarship as a whole notes no such thing about Dionysus, and with Buddha, that would be fringe among fringe. At least the Buddha nonsense could go. In ictu oculi ( talk) 04:24, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
That's pretty funny - I had never heard of "pastafarianism" :-) And yes, Apparently, this "crappy" article is an attempt by some religious-minded types to counter some of the literature that is contrary to their beliefs.
It seems pretty clear that there are some general connections with Hellenistic beliefs (heaven and hell, immediate afterlife in one of those spiritual realms versus the "sleep of death" while waiting for a mass resurrection of God's people and the start of his righteous kingdom on earth). And from what I have read, it is also apparent that there are some connections to "Osiris-Dionysus" in particular (turning water into wine, the anointment of Jesus, the eucharist ritual, etc.)... But I don't see a parallel between Christian beliefs and Buddhism, or between the life of Jesus and the life of Buddha.
I am not in a position to espouse the idea of a link to Hellenistic beliefs, but I am certainly not the first or only person to have noted such a possibility. And if an article is supposed to be about "Jesus and Comparative Mythology" (The story of Jesus/Christian beliefs, compared to similar Pagan deities and beliefs), then a section that is titled "New Testament Narrative" should at least have some relevance to the rest of the article (such as note the portions of the NT narrative that might have resulted from such links).
PS: If you have any interest in what the gospels actually say, and in what the first gospel most likely said (and in what ways, and why the experts got it all wrong), you should go to Amazon and check out: "Did Jesus Really Say That?!! - A Restoration of the First Gospel" (or at least download the free sample for Kindle). 76.28.177.80 ( talk) 15:43, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
this page is badly organised, there should be clear cut table and lists for similarities between (Christian Jesus,Islamic Jesus,Jewish Jesus) and Horus and mythat etc for people to decide if the similarities are random or not — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambelland ( talk • contribs) 22:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Added original research tag to the statement: "Among the comparanda, observation of mere mythic universals or "archetypes" needs to be distinguished from claims of historical influence, or common historical origin. Only when features can be shown to be parallel in highly specific detail can a common origin be assumed."
Samuel Sandmel does not make any of these statements in the citation given. Sandmel's argument in the essay was "The key word in my essay is extravagance. I am speaking words of caution about exaggerations about the parallels".
This may not be the same as asking for "highly specific detail". Moreover Sandmel seems like someone associated with Society of Biblical Literature. Does it not violate NPOV as the source might be biased? -- Alex ( talk) 16:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Changed some very subjective text that doesn't seem to belong in the Ancient Egypt area. Starting with "Most contemporary Egyptologists believe these parallels are not true and are pseudo-scientific," two of the references are dead, and every other reference offers no facts that supports the statement that precedes it.
Next the wiki points out that "W. Ward Gasque conducted a world-wide poll of twenty leading Egyptologists to verify if there was any academic support for these claims. The scholars were unanimous in dismissing the claimed parallels." In looking at the reference, the only time the Egyptologists ("leading" according to the author) were unanimous was in dismissing the suggested etymologies for Jesus and Christ. While nothing in the reference indicates that they were unanimous on any other aspect of the claims Gasque attempted to dispute, apparently someone felt inclined to write that they were unanimous in disputing all claims. The reference itself is devoid of certain facts (such as Alvin Boyd Kuhn having a Phd).
The subjective writing for this wiki is most obvious with the comment "Although considered fringe pseudo-science, Massey's views..." That sort of wording simply doesn't belong. 184.46.93.221 ( talk) 09:13, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Is there a BA nomination process? This article is so full of original research, error after error it is laughable. And it has advert links in it, say:
The first sentence is flatly rejected by scholars. What scholarship says is:
And the Society of Consciousness maybe a subconscious spam link, who knows...
The Buddhism section has a 1873 and a 1906 reference... Both predate WWI and are outdated non-WP:RS items.
Even a statement within the lede has a citation needed tag on it! And the Old Testament section and the single Q statement there and the Isiah assumption is both non-representative of scholarly views, and WP:OR.
And the list goes on.... This needs a rewrite by someone - myself excluded. History2007 ( talk) 17:39, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
On that note, I took another look and I do not even know why the sections are what they are and there seems to be confusion all around. The title of the article is "comparative mythology" and there is a section on that. But it is treated on the same level as other items, and what gets compared is not clearly structured. There are a few elements to compare to:
I would bundle the Mithraic elements within the Roman as a subsection given that they were 1st/2nd century and not very old like the Egyptian items. The Egyptian section is just loaded, loaded with WP:OR and uses texts about Egypt that have no references to Christianity, but juxtaposes them to draw analogies that are not present in the sources. That is just pure WP:OR. And using the great, great scholarship of Bill Maher is jus breathtaking. Where does Maher teach? Oxford? Harvard? Stanford? Or the comedy channel? The sourcing in this article is a sad joke. Just a joke.
The issue of the Old Testament is a very different game, because early Christianity directly quoted the OT anyway, and the NT inherently refers to the OT. So that needs a small section, but is really not a big issue here, and belongs in the Christianity and Judaism article. There is plenty of material of a far higher quality in that article and there is no point in doing a botched representation of that. It just needs a smaller section with a Main link there.
Then there is a section that tries to repeat the Christ myth theory page, but again does not do a good job at all. And this article seems to have been stuck during the Calvin Coolidge administration, and keeps using sources from 1927. Those are no longer WP:RS and were outdated long before Wikipedia stared. I think that should also become just a higher quality shorter section with a Main to Christ Myth theory.
If that is done, the confusion index here will drop. History2007 ( talk) 08:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Opinions of a mythical Christ originate in the late 18th century with Charles François Dupuis.[59] In works published in the 1790s, both argued...
Who are "both" in this context? -- Syzygy ( talk) 11:40, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
In the videos Zeitgeist and Religulous, we find lists comparing Horus and Jesus. However, no mention of that is made in the article (or here in Talk). I'd like to see those lists either substantiated or refuted. Maybe such would require a separate article. Is there one? After I saw one or the other video (or both), I tried to find either confirmation or refutation online, but was unsuccessful at the time. Perhaps there are historically-based point-by-point discussions (not just people arguing) about those that editors here can point us to? LInks? :) Thanks! Misty MH ( talk) 13:22, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Maybe someone here could actually create a separate article that focuses on each point in both of those lists (Zeitgeist and Religulous). Anyone Egypt- and Horus-savvy enough? It'll need Citations! :D Misty MH ( talk) 00:48, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, was Massey's comparison between Herod and Herrut based on aspects of Herod that are not accounted by historical sources, such as Herod's personality that somehow transfered from Herrut? This would be interesting to mention... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.80.79.77 ( talk) 15:01, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Any reason why there is no mention of Buddha's birth in this article? Seems pertinent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(mother_of_Buddha) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.80.79.77 ( talk) 14:56, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
I'd be interested to know how weakness and strength in parallels are measured, and therefore relevance in mentioning them in the article. Also, what are the criteria for classifying information/theory as "fringe?" I'm not being argumentative; I just want to know how one determines what goes in the article and what doesn't.
If the purpose of the article is to articulate the features of the Christ figure (as it has evolved) in Christian culture and how those features parallel with other religious/mythical/archetypal figures before and after the time of the historical Jesus, I would think that the birth story in the Gospel of Luke, which seems a very prominent aspect of the mythical Jesus figure, would be relevant to discuss parallels to. Lehel Kovach ( talk) 13:54, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
At present we've got a persistent IP editor adding unsourced content to this and another article. Feel free to revert and block on site, no additional warnings required. If the editor persists in IP hopping, then I'll protect the article, but I'd rather not if it can be avoided. Rklawton ( talk) 02:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
If you can't handle the subject matter because you're a bible-thumper closed to research and speculation, then leave the page alone. This isn't the "Refute Jesus is Mythology" page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.64.0.20 ( talk) 21:54, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
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In the Overview, the phrase "and most scholars agree that any such historical influence is entirely implausible given that first century monotheistic Galilean Jews would not have been open to pagan stories." implies that the "entire implausibility" of pagan influence is a FACT, to which "most scholars agree". A more unbiased statement would be "any such historical influence would be entirely implausible", although the rest of the article argues against such uniqueness and isolation of the N.T. writers. Marcostelias ( talk) 16:23, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
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Mz7 (
talk) 01:26, 15 May 2014 (UTC)This section is a summary of the main article Christ Myth Theory. The definition of the CMT is currently disputed, and this article is carrying a definition which is not as per the reliable sources. Please see the talk page at Christ Myth Theory for the specific details of the dispute. Wdford ( talk) 15:27, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
ERROR: "there is no evidence of a historical influence by the pagan myths such as dying and rising gods on the authors of the New Testament"
Of COURSE there is no evidence about the NT authors. What this neat obfuscatory technique does is distract from whence the pagan influence MAY have come. And of course, absence of evidence is not evidence of absense. Some open minds might be useful:
1) Abraham, who hailed from Ur in Sumer in Mesopotamia in Iraq -- who KNOWS what gods he was exposed to and what he took with him and discarded en route from Iraq to the Jerusalem Metropolitan area and monotheism.
2) The Jews have a lot of experience with Egypt: Moses, the Red Sea thing, who knows what Egyptian gods might have crossed the Red Sea with them.
3) The Jews also had a lot of exposure to the gods of Nebuchadnezzar.
4) The "Wise Men from the East" suggest Zoroastrian influence on Christianity -- and perhaps on the Hebrew religion. Zoroastrianism (Zarathustra) is also an apocalyptic religion based in never-ending battled between good and evil and could have influence both the Hebrew and Christian religions as well as Islam. Or erhaps this is a meme which springs forth eternal unbidden in all human religions?
5) The clincher: the snake tempts Eve with the fruit by telling her "ye will be as gods" -- incorrectly translated in most accounts as "ye shall surely not die"..." Lethomme ( talk) 22:45, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Kessler on pagan monotheism"
You have made your Bold move, which has been Reverted by two different wikipedians and now needs to be Discussed first before it can be added back. This is standard Wikipedia policy and cannot be negotiated. Edit-warring will not be tolerated and may lead to a block. It doesn't matter whether you are right or not, you need to establish consensus first. The correct place to bring up arguments is right here on Talk, not in further edit summaries. Martijn Meijering ( talk) 15:30, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
This entire article is less about "Jesus Christ in comparative mythology" than a dogmatic dismissal of all attempts to note (in a scholarly manner) that there are indeed mythic parallels between Christianity and other religions. Derrick Chapman 15:23, 15 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Derrickchapman ( talk • contribs)
I refer to the pattern followed by most paragraphs, in which a parallel is noted, then dismissed with a sentence effectively saying most Biblical scholars refute the parallel. Derrick Chapman 22:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Derrickchapman ( talk • contribs)
This page needs to be taken down or heavily edited, it speaks from an obviously biased perspective that ignores a large body of research, including acknowledged historical documents that contain similarities to the Jesus mythos. Also overexaggerates consensus among non-affiliated researchers. No mention anywhere of the stories with major similarities that do overlap and pre-date. Probably best to just take it down.
An editor is trying to assert that 'pagan' simply means 'non-Christian', which makes the sentence they are editing self-contradictory. Early Christians observed Jewish customs, which are inherently non-Christian.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 01:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
The passage about Porters stance ( /info/en/?search=Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology#Ancient_Egypt) is identical to one on the Gerald Massey Article ( /info/en/?search=Gerald_Massey#Criticism). This may constitute Close Paraphrasing as described in the wikipedia guidelines, although it is not paraphrased, but more or less identical. As one cannot edit this article, maybe an admin can look over this issue. ( 79.255.192.47 ( talk) 13:01, 24 September 2015 (UTC))
The result of the proposal was move per request. In a descriptive title like this one, we normally use the parent article's title, unless it would be confusing in context. Here, it is difficult to even imagine a scenario where a person would find Jesus to be ambiguous without Christ appended.-- Fuhghettaboutit ( talk) 19:21, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Jesus Christ in comparative mythology → Jesus in comparative mythology – I would've thought this would be sufficiently uncontroversial to do it myself, but a move to this title was reverted a few years ago, referring to talk page discussion. There hasn't been an RM, though some discussion in Archive 1 shows the rationale for "Christ" being that the article discusses Jesus as Messiah. But so do many Jesus articles. I don't think that's a good reason to deviate from the parent article, Jesus, or WP:CONCISE. -- BDD ( talk) 18:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
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Right now this article does its damnedest to portray Christianity as an exceptional religion that somehow appeared in a vacuum, exactly followed it scriptural narrative, and had no influence from the world around it. It stands as an example of how writing about Christianity in the west presents unique challenges: How many of these "scholarly sources" are in fact defenses of the religion—in this case Christianity—that the author holds? How many of these sources are from Christian institutions? How many of these sources are actually from people working in relevant fields, such as folkloristics, rather than theology and religious studies? This is a real issue with this article as well as Christ myth theory, another minefield of an article. Right now this article is a total mess. :bloodofox: ( talk) 20:12, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree with the above comments. This is the single worst article I've read on Wikipedia. No attempt is made at all to adopt a neutral point of view. It's nonsensical. Liamcalling ( talk) 01:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Not to get too echo-ey here, but have to agree with the above. I was curious about the subject, came here, and am left feeling like I need to look elsewhere to get any sort of useful academic view on the subject. 92.238.177.129 ( talk) 10:55, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
@ Bloodofox: Sandmel's criticism of comparisons between Jesus and pagan figures is not at all fringe. I hope I do not offend you when I say that I am getting a distinct impression that you are very unfamiliar with New Testament scholarship. The fact is that it is generally agreed that pagan influence on Christianity comes only from the later strata of the religion, after it had become a predominantly Gentile religion largely detached from its original Jewish roots (a shift which happened in the late first century after the Synoptic Gospels were written). Thus, the gospels of Mark and Matthew are usually thought to be either totally free from pagan influence or, if there are pagan influences in them, they are not observable. Instead, the primary influence on them is Jewish tradition. The Gospel of Matthew in particular is known for its markedly Jewish character and it was at one point used by the Ebionites, an early sect of Judaizing Christians. The Gospel of Luke is a bit more of an open question, with some scholars arguing that, in this gospel, Jesus may be starting to show some features of a pagan divine-man; this is, of course, still disputed. The Gospel of John was definitely influenced by Platonism and it may have also been influenced to some extent by Greco-Roman paganism, though even this is still hotly disputed. The parallels between Dionysus and the portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel of John that you refer to are indeed a legitimate area of scholarly inquiry, but it is by no means widely accepted that the Gospel of John was influenced by Dionysus. (Indeed, many scholars have proposed equally credible explanations that the wine imagery in the gospel may simply be based on passages from the Old Testament.)
Furthermore, what Sandmel is actually criticizing is not the study of legitimate pagan influence on later Christianity, but rather the massive quantity of material that has been produced - primarily by a regrettable strand of remarkably shoddy scholarship in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, as well as some more recent writings produced by amateurs - adducing wildly exaggerated parallels to Jesus based on even slightest superficial similarities (or even sometimes completely nonexistent ones). The "parallelomania" he describes has largely been expelled from mainstream scholarship, but it is still very common among supporters of the fringe Christ Myth theory, who often invent and exaggerate parallels far beyond reality. One representative example of this trend described by Maurice Casey is the notion propounded by some Christ Myth theorists that the word "Christ" is somehow derived from the Sanskrit name of the Hindu god Krishna, despite the fact that "Christ" is an ordinary Greek word meaning "anointed one" that existed long before Jesus and it already has a completely mundane etymology unrelated to Krishna. Another example is the interpretation of a story in which Krishna is killed by being shot through the heel as some kind of crucifixion. Even for the deities who may have legitimately influenced later Christian views on Jesus, there are still all kinds of wild speculations. For instance, there is credible reason to think that Egyptian portrayals of Isis nursing Horus may have influenced Christian depictions of the Virgin Mary nursing Jesus, but, aside from this (at least as far as I am currently aware), there is no evidence to support the idea that any of the other supposed parallels between them that have been propounded over the years thanks to the humorous ineptitude of Gerald Massey have any veracity behind them. -- Katolophyromai ( talk) 01:28, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Just an anonymous reader browsing, but I agree with the earlier talk. Worst bias I have personally ever seen on Wikipedia. There is a noticeable lack of inclusion of the mythology of a variety of religions in addition to previously noted issues. If this is an article attempting to compare the mythological life of christ to the lives of other god/martyr figures throughout history, a broader series of topics than the 6 most cherrypicked and disputable instances might be a good idea. Fully agreee with below talk, this article reads like scholars nearly universally agree christ was unique and christianity didn't borrow any themes from his life from other places. That's simply not factual in any way whatsoever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.37.92.31 ( talk) 05:06, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm noticing a very heavy reliance on works by Bart D. Ehrman, a theologian. This is particularly notable so far in our section on Mithras. Ehrman is by no means a specialist on the topic of Mithras and classical mystery cults, and I believe that we should be using superior sources than Ehrman's general audience-aimed book length argument for the historicity of Jesus (Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, notably published by HarperCollins's HarperOne imprint rather than an academic press).
There exists many, many peer-reviewed works by classicists on this topic and the general topic of mystery religions in the classical world and their influence on Christianity, and I see no evident reason to lean so strongly into Ehrman's book. Surely we can do a lot better. Additionally, when scholars interject opinions, we must be very careful about attributing those opinions to maintain neutrality. I've noticed a few incidents where that hasn't been the case so far in this article. :bloodofox: ( talk) 23:17, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
@ Katolophyromai:, I'd like to thank you for bringing in material by Alan Dundes on this topic. It's something I've been meaning to do. I think we should consider bringing in some of his commentary regarding the approaches of theologians and folklorist neglect of this material, as he makes some unique and very on-topic points. :bloodofox: ( talk) 21:22, 2 March 2018 (UTC)