This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
THIS VOTE HAS ENDED, PLEASE DO NOT ADD ADDITIONAL VOTES!
Okay, the biggest problem there seems to be on this page is that there are way, way, way too many votes and schtuff going on inside of this page. We've got several different suggestions and I think all of us are ready to decide on it and move freakin' on.
So here's my proposition. I've placed here the current suggestions on the table, those which have been involved in discussion or debate, or have received a voting process. If I have missed a suggestion that would be considered a final, ready-to-vote upon line of text, please add it within the first two hours of this vote.
After that, no more debating, no more discussion, let's finish this bloody sentence and move on. For the next 48 hours, this section is to remain a voting only section, no talk, no discussion, no comments, no neutrals (because we just need to pick one), no "accept with conditions. " At the end of the day, the twenty or so editors on this page have been arguing about one sentence for over thirty days now, and there is a lot more work that could be done.
Please sign (#~~~~ only) between the text and dividing line of the ONE text which, for at least the next thirty days, you could live with. It does not have to be the one whose semantical, definitional, theological, et ceteraical machinations you agree with or believe in. At this point, we are never going to finish the sentence if we're trying to sculpt one to which every single editor adheres. Your vote will count for the suggestion that it is placed directly under
I will tally the votes and in the event that any suggestion receives more than 80% support (the current number used to pass RfD and RfAdmins), we will place that line on the page and move on. If a clear majority is not present, the percentages will be calculated and any item that received less than 20% support will be removed. If all votes match this mark, the lowest scoring item will be removed. We will vote again until we are either down to two suggestions or one suggestion receives an outright 80% vote.
If your voted suggestion is removed, please select the choice out of those remaining that, again, you could live with for the sake of civility and ending this war.
At this point, the final choice will be used on the main page and all changes to that line will be reverted as per consensus, even if an editor vehemently disagrees with the vote, and reverts here will be subject to WP:3RR like all others. I know this seems rather drastic or rather totalitarian, but honestly, this has dragged on long enough. In the end, not every editor is going to be completely satisfied with the end result, but this is the only way we will drop this matter. At that point, every single piece of material on this talk page that has to do with that line should be archived and any further debate (such as that from authors who wish to provide a new suggestion after the thirty days) should take place on the archive page.
Finally, I have added two other fields. One, if you absolutely disagree with this suggestion in its entirety, please place your stamp on the appropriate field. If that field reaches a majority vote, we will disregard this and continue on with the debate. Two, it is theoritically possible to remove the line entire as we must also consider the existence of a Historicity section just down the page and two separate articles designed to discuss the topic, Historicity and Jesus-Myth.
Consider, however, how much good seems to be coming out of this as opposed to how much bad. I see a lot more frustration, attacks, edit wars, revert wars, and anti-editor sides being created than any positive work towards the future of Wikipedia.
Agreement to Consensus and Honesty: Another editor brought me to realize that I hadn't addressed this here. By placing your signature on a suggested text line on this voting board, you agree to abide by the consensus of a selected line for the proposed thirty day term. There is no point in placing a vote which you later choose to disavow, or voting in a decision which you later choose to ignore. If you feel that you cannot abide by the decision of the editors here (meaning leaving this line alone and discussing it on a subpage for the duration), please mark your signature in the last section, designating that you cannot promise to abide by consensus. If you have already posted a vote on this board, you may revoke it or move it to a new section in light of this agreement, but please do so only once, and let that vote be final. Please do not move your vote after you have placed it (unless you placed it by mistake, at which point we would expect you to immediately move it. Ten hours later is unacceptable). Any editor caught moving or removing another editor's vote will be immediately referred to an admin and have his or her vote nullified. (I have extended the vote duration to reflect this recent change. --AWK)
Please, only place a bullet and your signature inside of this section. Please do not comment on your vote, please do not add stipulations, please do not reply to others votes. This must end. -- Avery W. Krouse 03:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
THIS VOTE HAS ENDED, PLEASE DO NOT ADD ADDITIONAL VOTES!
'However, citing a lack of extant contemporaneous documents making reference to him, a small minority question the historicity of Jesus. [1] (current form and Feb 20th consensus) 15/39 (38.46%)
However, a small minority of others consider the lack of extant contemporaneous documents making a reference to him significant and therefore question the historicity of Jesus. [2] (Sophia version) 6/39 (15.28%)
A small minority of others question the historicity of Jesus. [3] (CTSWyneken Version) 16/39 (41.02%)
Remove the line entirely 2/39 (5.12%)
All suggested texts are unacceptable / more debate needs to occur / will not abide by consensus 0/39 (0%)
Once again, please keep all comments out of the above field, for the sake of clarity, honesty, and fairness. I have moved them all down here.
Also, those of you who have voted twice, please go back and remove ONE of your votes. Voting twice does not help us narrow the field down, it just unbalances the equation. Thank you. -- Avery W. Krouse 16:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Whoever moved these comments here, isolating them from specific vote' has made a nonsense of these comments - Stop trying to dictate what others CAN and CAN'T do. Robsteadman 19:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
...Why are you voting for something that leaves out important information that explains why these scholars don't agree that "jesus" was real? Why are you trying to make the article less informative, less verifiable and less encyclopedic? Robsteadman 14:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Rob, because the sentence is linked directly to the article on the historicity of Jesus and is discussed in depth there and in the Historicity section of this article. If you would review Wikipedia policy concerning WP:NPOV#Undue weight, you'd see this fring belief need not even be mentioned at all, but in order to achieve a consensus many of us are voting to leave this limited version in the article. We are not removing anything except cause for argument, as there is plenty of linkage that would satisfy any readers search for information on the historicity of Jesus and it is discussed further in the concording section. Why would we insist on overrepresenting a fringe view in contradiction of Wikipedia policy? — Aiden 20:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. It does not matter whether anyone thinks it is a fringe view. Almost all agree it should be represented in the intro, with a link to a more detailed article. It makes good sense to be as concise as possible in the introduction. An introduction is meant to orient readers to what comes after the introduction; and introduction is not the place for argument. Note that the sentence about the other view, that many historians believe Jesus existed, does not goi into all their reasoning - that too belongs in the body of this article or a linked article. In the intro we should state the main points of view. We should wait for the body of the article, or a linked article, to elaborate on that view, who holds it, and why. I would say the same thing about any other article. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
THIS VOTE HAS ENDED, PLEASE DO NOT ADD ADDITIONAL VOTES!
Okay, the biggest problem there seems to be on this page is that there are way, way, way too many votes and schtuff going on inside of this page. We've got several different suggestions and I think all of us are ready to decide on it and move freakin' on.
So here's my proposition. I've placed here the current suggestions on the table, those which have been involved in discussion or debate, or have received a voting process. If I have missed a suggestion that would be considered a final, ready-to-vote upon line of text, please add it within the first two hours of this vote.
After that, no more debating, no more discussion, let's finish this bloody sentence and move on. For the next 48 hours, this section is to remain a voting only section, no talk, no discussion, no comments, no neutrals (because we just need to pick one), no "accept with conditions. " At the end of the day, the twenty or so editors on this page have been arguing about one sentence for over thirty days now, and there is a lot more work that could be done.
Please sign (#~~~~ only) between the text and dividing line of the ONE text which, for at least the next thirty days, you could live with. It does not have to be the one whose semantical, definitional, theological, et ceteraical machinations you agree with or believe in. At this point, we are never going to finish the sentence if we're trying to sculpt one to which every single editor adheres. Your vote will count for the suggestion that it is placed directly under
I will tally the votes and in the event that any suggestion receives more than 80% support (the current number used to pass RfD and RfAdmins), we will place that line on the page and move on. If a clear majority is not present, the percentages will be calculated and any item that received less than 20% support will be removed. If all votes match this mark, the lowest scoring item will be removed. We will vote again until we are either down to two suggestions or one suggestion receives an outright 80% vote.
If your voted suggestion is removed, please select the choice out of those remaining that, again, you could live with for the sake of civility and ending this war.
At this point, the final choice will be used on the main page and all changes to that line will be reverted as per consensus, even if an editor vehemently disagrees with the vote, and reverts here will be subject to WP:3RR like all others. I know this seems rather drastic or rather totalitarian, but honestly, this has dragged on long enough. In the end, not every editor is going to be completely satisfied with the end result, but this is the only way we will drop this matter. At that point, every single piece of material on this talk page that has to do with that line should be archived and any further debate (such as that from authors who wish to provide a new suggestion after the thirty days) should take place on the archive page.
Finally, I have added two other fields. One, if you absolutely disagree with this suggestion in its entirety, please place your stamp on the appropriate field. If that field reaches a majority vote, we will disregard this and continue on with the debate. Two, it is theoritically possible to remove the line entire as we must also consider the existence of a Historicity section just down the page and two separate articles designed to discuss the topic, Historicity and Jesus-Myth.
Consider, however, how much good seems to be coming out of this as opposed to how much bad. I see a lot more frustration, attacks, edit wars, revert wars, and anti-editor sides being created than any positive work towards the future of Wikipedia.
Agreement to Consensus and Honesty: Another editor brought me to realize that I hadn't addressed this here. By placing your signature on a suggested text line on this voting board, you agree to abide by the consensus of a selected line for the proposed thirty day term. There is no point in placing a vote which you later choose to disavow, or voting in a decision which you later choose to ignore. If you feel that you cannot abide by the decision of the editors here (meaning leaving this line alone and discussing it on a subpage for the duration), please mark your signature in the last section, designating that you cannot promise to abide by consensus. If you have already posted a vote on this board, you may revoke it or move it to a new section in light of this agreement, but please do so only once, and let that vote be final. Please do not move your vote after you have placed it (unless you placed it by mistake, at which point we would expect you to immediately move it. Ten hours later is unacceptable). Any editor caught moving or removing another editor's vote will be immediately referred to an admin and have his or her vote nullified. (I have extended the vote duration to reflect this recent change. --AWK)
Please, only place a bullet and your signature inside of this section. Please do not comment on your vote, please do not add stipulations, please do not reply to others votes. This must end. -- Avery W. Krouse 03:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
THIS VOTE HAS ENDED, PLEASE DO NOT ADD ADDITIONAL VOTES!
'However, citing a lack of extant contemporaneous documents making reference to him, a small minority question the historicity of Jesus. [1] (current form and Feb 20th consensus) 15/39 (38.46%)
However, a small minority of others consider the lack of extant contemporaneous documents making a reference to him significant and therefore question the historicity of Jesus. [2] (Sophia version) 6/39 (15.28%)
A small minority of others question the historicity of Jesus. [3] (CTSWyneken Version) 16/39 (41.02%)
Remove the line entirely 2/39 (5.12%)
All suggested texts are unacceptable / more debate needs to occur / will not abide by consensus 0/39 (0%)
Once again, please keep all comments out of the above field, for the sake of clarity, honesty, and fairness. I have moved them all down here.
Also, those of you who have voted twice, please go back and remove ONE of your votes. Voting twice does not help us narrow the field down, it just unbalances the equation. Thank you. -- Avery W. Krouse 16:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Whoever moved these comments here, isolating them from specific vote' has made a nonsense of these comments - Stop trying to dictate what others CAN and CAN'T do. Robsteadman 19:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
...Why are you voting for something that leaves out important information that explains why these scholars don't agree that "jesus" was real? Why are you trying to make the article less informative, less verifiable and less encyclopedic? Robsteadman 14:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Rob, because the sentence is linked directly to the article on the historicity of Jesus and is discussed in depth there and in the Historicity section of this article. If you would review Wikipedia policy concerning WP:NPOV#Undue weight, you'd see this fring belief need not even be mentioned at all, but in order to achieve a consensus many of us are voting to leave this limited version in the article. We are not removing anything except cause for argument, as there is plenty of linkage that would satisfy any readers search for information on the historicity of Jesus and it is discussed further in the concording section. Why would we insist on overrepresenting a fringe view in contradiction of Wikipedia policy? — Aiden 20:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. It does not matter whether anyone thinks it is a fringe view. Almost all agree it should be represented in the intro, with a link to a more detailed article. It makes good sense to be as concise as possible in the introduction. An introduction is meant to orient readers to what comes after the introduction; and introduction is not the place for argument. Note that the sentence about the other view, that many historians believe Jesus existed, does not goi into all their reasoning - that too belongs in the body of this article or a linked article. In the intro we should state the main points of view. We should wait for the body of the article, or a linked article, to elaborate on that view, who holds it, and why. I would say the same thing about any other article. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |