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If the subject of the second paragraph is what historians think, then put them in the first sentence. Please see [1]. Anyone second the motion? Leadwind ( talk) 03:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
How about: "Historians use the gospels, M, M, L, & J, as primary sources of information on Jesus' life"? That way we put the gospels in the first sentence, and we put historians in the first sentence. The gentle reader understands that this paragraph is going to be about historians. Leadwind ( talk) 14:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
My answer to the queston is in comments on the talk page on January 10 and January 17, and an edit summary on january 29. Sorry, but expressing my view three times is my limit. And frankly, I consider your asking me what my view is after we have discussed this in several sections of the talk page to be a sign of bad faith. If the first three times i explained myself didn't satisfy you, all I can conclude is that no answer I give will satisfy you. You can keep arguing this if you want. I have explained my position. "When someone who disagrees with me" ignores my explanations and keeps insisting I explain myself, I start to feel insulted and played with. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeshua's birthday IS somewhere around September during the Feast of Tabernacles. The K.O. King ( talk) 00:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
If some of you guys would study instead of just shooting stuff down you might find out some things. I'm telling you the truth. The K.O. King ( talk) 01:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I fixed a reference to the last supper in the chronology section. Someone was using a primary source to say that the LS in Mark isn't Passover.
I'd like to pare the chronology section down. Consider, for a moment, the fate of our gentle reader, coming to this page to learn something about one of the most remarkable folks in history, only to get bogged down in a highly detailed treatment of chronology, none of which does anything to tell anyone anything about Jesus. There's a main article for all the detail anyone could want. Here's what a regular old reader needs to know:
We can do that in a paragraph. A clear, clean paragraph that summarizes the high points is better than a highly detailed section that turns off all but the devoted student. The section could also use an image.
I'm trying to identify ways to improve this page that aren't POV mine fields. How did I do? Leadwind ( talk) 16:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'm not trying to start *that* flamewar again. But I do need to note that the current dual usage is technically incorrect. Years written in the AD system are written "AD 1925," thus writing something like "1925 AD/CE" is incorrect. The Manual of Style agrees with me noting:
Either CE and BCE or AD and BC can be used—spaced, undotted (without periods) and upper-case. Choose either the BC/AD or the BCE/CE system, but not both in the same article. AD appears before a year (AD 1066) but after a century (2nd century AD); the other abbreviations appear after (1066 CE, 3700 BCE, 3700 BC). The absence of such an abbreviation indicates the default, CE/AD. It is inappropriate for a Wikipedia editor to change from one style to another unless there is a substantive reason; the Manual of Style favors neither system over the other
It seems to me that this article should use either the BC/AD system or the BCE/CE system exclusively. It is impossible to use both systems simultaneously and continue to be correct with the AD usage unless somebody wanted to write something such as "AD 1925 or 1925 CE." Cheers. -- Burzum ( talk) 21:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
That's what I'm saying, whoever changes it first, that's what we'll use. That's the way the rules work. If it doesn't really matter, you stick with what's already there. Right now we're breaking MOS rules, so someone change it so we can move on with our lives. Wrad ( talk) 23:49, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. *leans back, opens a pack of pistachios and waits* ;-). -- Stephan Schulz ( talk) 01:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe the compromise that was worked out long ago for the BC/BCE style was achieved with the explicit recognition that it went against the MoS somewhat. That was deemed an acceptable price for the relative peace after so much edit warring over the issue. This present discussion began only five hours ago and had input from only eight editors when it was deemed that consensus for changing the longstanding compromise was made. I am surprised that anyone here thinks that the issue has received enough attention from the community of editors interested in this article that some notion of consensus can be formulated at this point, especially given the general acceptance that the old solution had and the empirical benefits it has had in terms of keeping edit wars away from the page. I appreciate the desire to conform to the MoS better, but I think folks are being way too hasty here and are ignoring the very real danger of launching another series of edit wars. I urge Wrad to self-revert until editors have had a proper opportunity to consider this change, and I think at least a week is necessary to provide such an opportunity. alanyst / talk/ 02:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Lots of responses to this discussion, but not any to OkiefromOkla's call for an FA push awhile ago. Let's just forget it and move on. I don't really care that much. I just want this to be an FA. Can we do another FA push? What's holding us back? Wrad ( talk) 02:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
This topic started with a suggestion that AD precede the year. THREE points: 1> AD/CE is not necessarily just a mix of AD & CE, it is a "suffix" in itself, used other places than here, with its own standard context - viz, AFTER the year. 2> Many style guides do permit AD after the year, anyway 3>even our MoS does not specifically say AD MUST precede a year, AND it is completely silent on the combo of AD/CE 4> some FA reviewers might object to dual usage of AD/CE. Having a good NPOV article is more important than getting FA status, no matter what a few FA reviewers might get stuck on. 5> We even had AD 33CE appear a few years ago. Fighting over the placement of AD is being too picky, and all it seems to have done is upset the truce that has been established -- JimWae ( talk) 04:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy to let the Christians win this one and go with BC/AD. They've lost a lot of ground over the years, and I'd be OK to give them a little freebie. But I don't have any illusion that it's worth discussing. Leadwind ( talk) 05:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm serious about this, so I'm putting it in its own section. Who's willing to go for another push? I just want to know how many hands we'd have from the start. Add your sig below. Wrad ( talk) 04:04, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm really surprised at this. To all of you who have your names in that box up at the top as "active contributors", how can you call yourself that if you're not willing to go all the way when an opportunity presents itself? I don't mean to be rude, but there's little chance of this article reaching FA if its best editors aren't motivated. Wrad ( talk) 20:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the Piss Christ image should be included. I understand that the depiction of Christ immersed in urine might offend some Christians, but it is important and famous artwork. Yes, there will be Creationists that want it removed, but the encyclopedia should not bend to the wishes of fundamentalists, as this is an issue of freedom of speech. This is important contemporary art and leaving it off is omitting information just for the sake of the Christian editors. I respect their beliefs but I do not see why their beliefs should prevent this image from being displayed here. This artist was persecuted by religious fundamentalists and that sort of thing should not continue on Wikipedia.-- 24.57.157.81 ( talk) 21:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I thin the point is that Piss Christ is far more notable than the BBC image. Also, since all the other images in the article illustrate diferent ways Christians or artists have viewed Jesus(without necessarily making any claims that they were historians), this image is more like the other images in the aticle than the BBC one. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The question is, what is the purpose of images in this article? I agree entirely with Paul that they should illustrate points in the article (my point is only that the points of view they illustrate should be notable points of view). It seems to me that the images this article does have are representations of changing artistic images of Jesus. In this context, Piss Christ may be appropriate. Of course, I have argued, for a long time and consistently, that this articles should not have images of Jesus and that images of Jesus should be in their own article on artists' (or Christians') representations of Jesus. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 90 | ← | Archive 92 | Archive 93 | Archive 94 | Archive 95 | Archive 96 | → | Archive 100 |
If the subject of the second paragraph is what historians think, then put them in the first sentence. Please see [1]. Anyone second the motion? Leadwind ( talk) 03:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
How about: "Historians use the gospels, M, M, L, & J, as primary sources of information on Jesus' life"? That way we put the gospels in the first sentence, and we put historians in the first sentence. The gentle reader understands that this paragraph is going to be about historians. Leadwind ( talk) 14:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
My answer to the queston is in comments on the talk page on January 10 and January 17, and an edit summary on january 29. Sorry, but expressing my view three times is my limit. And frankly, I consider your asking me what my view is after we have discussed this in several sections of the talk page to be a sign of bad faith. If the first three times i explained myself didn't satisfy you, all I can conclude is that no answer I give will satisfy you. You can keep arguing this if you want. I have explained my position. "When someone who disagrees with me" ignores my explanations and keeps insisting I explain myself, I start to feel insulted and played with. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeshua's birthday IS somewhere around September during the Feast of Tabernacles. The K.O. King ( talk) 00:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
If some of you guys would study instead of just shooting stuff down you might find out some things. I'm telling you the truth. The K.O. King ( talk) 01:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I fixed a reference to the last supper in the chronology section. Someone was using a primary source to say that the LS in Mark isn't Passover.
I'd like to pare the chronology section down. Consider, for a moment, the fate of our gentle reader, coming to this page to learn something about one of the most remarkable folks in history, only to get bogged down in a highly detailed treatment of chronology, none of which does anything to tell anyone anything about Jesus. There's a main article for all the detail anyone could want. Here's what a regular old reader needs to know:
We can do that in a paragraph. A clear, clean paragraph that summarizes the high points is better than a highly detailed section that turns off all but the devoted student. The section could also use an image.
I'm trying to identify ways to improve this page that aren't POV mine fields. How did I do? Leadwind ( talk) 16:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'm not trying to start *that* flamewar again. But I do need to note that the current dual usage is technically incorrect. Years written in the AD system are written "AD 1925," thus writing something like "1925 AD/CE" is incorrect. The Manual of Style agrees with me noting:
Either CE and BCE or AD and BC can be used—spaced, undotted (without periods) and upper-case. Choose either the BC/AD or the BCE/CE system, but not both in the same article. AD appears before a year (AD 1066) but after a century (2nd century AD); the other abbreviations appear after (1066 CE, 3700 BCE, 3700 BC). The absence of such an abbreviation indicates the default, CE/AD. It is inappropriate for a Wikipedia editor to change from one style to another unless there is a substantive reason; the Manual of Style favors neither system over the other
It seems to me that this article should use either the BC/AD system or the BCE/CE system exclusively. It is impossible to use both systems simultaneously and continue to be correct with the AD usage unless somebody wanted to write something such as "AD 1925 or 1925 CE." Cheers. -- Burzum ( talk) 21:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
That's what I'm saying, whoever changes it first, that's what we'll use. That's the way the rules work. If it doesn't really matter, you stick with what's already there. Right now we're breaking MOS rules, so someone change it so we can move on with our lives. Wrad ( talk) 23:49, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. *leans back, opens a pack of pistachios and waits* ;-). -- Stephan Schulz ( talk) 01:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe the compromise that was worked out long ago for the BC/BCE style was achieved with the explicit recognition that it went against the MoS somewhat. That was deemed an acceptable price for the relative peace after so much edit warring over the issue. This present discussion began only five hours ago and had input from only eight editors when it was deemed that consensus for changing the longstanding compromise was made. I am surprised that anyone here thinks that the issue has received enough attention from the community of editors interested in this article that some notion of consensus can be formulated at this point, especially given the general acceptance that the old solution had and the empirical benefits it has had in terms of keeping edit wars away from the page. I appreciate the desire to conform to the MoS better, but I think folks are being way too hasty here and are ignoring the very real danger of launching another series of edit wars. I urge Wrad to self-revert until editors have had a proper opportunity to consider this change, and I think at least a week is necessary to provide such an opportunity. alanyst / talk/ 02:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Lots of responses to this discussion, but not any to OkiefromOkla's call for an FA push awhile ago. Let's just forget it and move on. I don't really care that much. I just want this to be an FA. Can we do another FA push? What's holding us back? Wrad ( talk) 02:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
This topic started with a suggestion that AD precede the year. THREE points: 1> AD/CE is not necessarily just a mix of AD & CE, it is a "suffix" in itself, used other places than here, with its own standard context - viz, AFTER the year. 2> Many style guides do permit AD after the year, anyway 3>even our MoS does not specifically say AD MUST precede a year, AND it is completely silent on the combo of AD/CE 4> some FA reviewers might object to dual usage of AD/CE. Having a good NPOV article is more important than getting FA status, no matter what a few FA reviewers might get stuck on. 5> We even had AD 33CE appear a few years ago. Fighting over the placement of AD is being too picky, and all it seems to have done is upset the truce that has been established -- JimWae ( talk) 04:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy to let the Christians win this one and go with BC/AD. They've lost a lot of ground over the years, and I'd be OK to give them a little freebie. But I don't have any illusion that it's worth discussing. Leadwind ( talk) 05:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm serious about this, so I'm putting it in its own section. Who's willing to go for another push? I just want to know how many hands we'd have from the start. Add your sig below. Wrad ( talk) 04:04, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm really surprised at this. To all of you who have your names in that box up at the top as "active contributors", how can you call yourself that if you're not willing to go all the way when an opportunity presents itself? I don't mean to be rude, but there's little chance of this article reaching FA if its best editors aren't motivated. Wrad ( talk) 20:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the Piss Christ image should be included. I understand that the depiction of Christ immersed in urine might offend some Christians, but it is important and famous artwork. Yes, there will be Creationists that want it removed, but the encyclopedia should not bend to the wishes of fundamentalists, as this is an issue of freedom of speech. This is important contemporary art and leaving it off is omitting information just for the sake of the Christian editors. I respect their beliefs but I do not see why their beliefs should prevent this image from being displayed here. This artist was persecuted by religious fundamentalists and that sort of thing should not continue on Wikipedia.-- 24.57.157.81 ( talk) 21:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I thin the point is that Piss Christ is far more notable than the BBC image. Also, since all the other images in the article illustrate diferent ways Christians or artists have viewed Jesus(without necessarily making any claims that they were historians), this image is more like the other images in the aticle than the BBC one. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The question is, what is the purpose of images in this article? I agree entirely with Paul that they should illustrate points in the article (my point is only that the points of view they illustrate should be notable points of view). It seems to me that the images this article does have are representations of changing artistic images of Jesus. In this context, Piss Christ may be appropriate. Of course, I have argued, for a long time and consistently, that this articles should not have images of Jesus and that images of Jesus should be in their own article on artists' (or Christians') representations of Jesus. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)