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The way I see it, the only obvious thing left to fix in this article is reference the new last sentence of the second paragraph, since there are only references to Jesus-myth types, but not to inerrantist or near-interrantist scholars, or to a reference which would just plainly indicate that neither side has many people. After that, would anyone be opposed to another FA nom, I think the last time was a bit problematic because there were a bunch of references things to fix and some weird thing about expanding mention of the Apocrypha and the Jewish Messiah which I think probably wern't appropriate, but the nom was so spur of the moment, I don't think anyone who would of known how to was ready to really respond to those criticisms :/. Homestarmy 01:32, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Personally I don't think this should go for another candidacy until the BC/BCE tags are sorted out - it just looks silly. It's quite clear BC/AD should be used. The Muhammad article uses BCE, so why shouldn't this use BC? Please, none of the "oh but really all articles should use BCE" nonsense. If it's fair to exclusively use BCE for non-Christian religious figures, I think it's perfectly acceptable to exclusively use BC for Christian ones. Otherwise there's one rule for Christian religious articles and another one for non-Christians religious articles. John Smith's 15:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, fine - let's have another discussion on it.
I think the article would be better if "immaculate conception" replaced "virgin birth" throughout... What do other editors think? Petepetepetepete 11:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Uh, in theology, Immaculate Conception refers to MARY being concieved with out sin. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus' was a Virgin Birth, again maybe you didn't click on the links. Give them both a read. -- SECisek 12:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The term "Immaculate conception" is fairly unique to Roman Catholic theology, and as previously pointed out, is subject to various misinterpretations. I have never heard nor seen it used in Protestantism. I, too, agree that "Virgin Birth" is theologically correct. It also is consistent with the Apostles' Creed and other historic creeds of Christianity. Afaprof01 05:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Some Anglicans use the term and have faith in the doctrine, but some Anglicans don't self-identify as Protestant. Virgin birth IS what you want here. -- SECisek 06:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Per User Andrew C's request, my opinion is that we do a disservice to both truth and readership by sticking to the term "father." It is misleading in that it does not take into account the position of most Christians re: the Virgin Birth. I liked the most recent re-word by User RossNixon: "Joseph, husband of ' Mary" And I agree with this user that it allows for multiple beliefs (assumed father, actual father, adoptive father, etc.)
The Wiki article entitled Saint Joseph takes a lot of words, but perhaps we can "borrow" the idea expressed therein:
My personal opinion about the Jesus article is that it has become so "politically correct"--trying to be all things to all people--that it has become quite sterile, far beyond encyclopedic. Irrespective of all the different connotations about Jesus, he is the Founder of Christianity, and I don't think this article needs to apologize for that. Thanks! Afaprof01 05:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
What was wrong with:
User RossNixon: "Joseph, husband of ' Mary"
Seems to be all things while remaining NPOV. -- SECisek 06:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
There is dispute over whether Jesus thought of himself of not being Jewish. Is this category appropriate? I think not simply because it wouldn't be neutral to take sides in the debate. The article doesn't mention Jesus' conversion anywhere either, so the category isn't congruent with the article content.- Andrew c [talk] 13:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the dating terms BC/AD should be used exclusively, or the dual use of BC/AD and BCE/CE should be used together. 14:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a non-issue. We have had a stable consensus for years to use both on this page. It was a consensus that was reached by many wikipedia editors who had put a good deal of work into the article. Why change? Instead of trying to stir up trouble oaver this, why don't you do something positive, like, read the latest books by historians or theologians about Jesus, or see if there are any new articles in the major peer-reviewed journals, and actually add valuable content? Wikipedia shouldn't be about going around pushing an agenda, it should be about dedicated research to improve article content. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Great comment Slr. I want to say, John Smith's, that it is wrong to phrase the debate in terms of "BC/AD vs. BC/BCE and AD/CE". This really is a Common Era vs. Anno Domini discussion. You are presenting a false dichotomy in your opening statements. I'd also like to note that There is and was no good reason not to use BC/AD exclusively is a disputed statement and is belittling the opposition. Whether their arguments are compelling enough to change is another matter, but I do not believe it is inappropriate to say that there has been "no good reason" presented in the past. I'd prefer that this RfC be withdrawn. The dating issue didn't seriously come up in our last FAC, and this discussion is likely going to stop all other progress on this article for at least the next week.- Andrew c [talk] 15:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Following a comment I wrote to ElinorD, John Smith writes, "The article's title is "Jesus", not "Jesus Christ". I also think that if people are going to be so pedantic over two letters they're going to get annoyed over the significance over the date as well." But he is wrong. I have read (and listened to) lots of comments by people who oppose BC/AD; all of them are satisfied with BCE and CE, and none of them have gotten annoyed over the date. The only people who ever raise the possibility of this objection, in all my experience, are people who actually want to use BC/AD exclusively. In other words, it is a red-herring. I have explained, in good faith, with no insults, why many people are offended by BC/AD and John Smith's' response is, in effect, I am making it up. So we are all now clear on who lacks good faith. He certainly did not take my comment in good faith. He just wants to argue. If you want to fight, go to a pub and pick one. Me, I am checking my watchlist and then going back to reading a book - you know, doing research. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Did I misinterpret your saying "Really, what evidence do you have for that?" as implying I have no evidence? I informed you that many Jews are offended by the use of BC/AD as general conventions (I mean, they are not offended when a Christian uses them, only when the Christian assumes everyone else has to use them). Why not accept what I say in good faith? I fully understand why Christians want to continue using BC and AD [1] but their reasons are precisely why many Jews do not want to be forced to use these terms. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no policy on these matters, only guidelines. Several years ago I tried to create a new policy. It lost, although my proposal had considerable support (my point only being that my view is not a fringe view. And obviously I accept the fact that the use of BC/AD is not a fringe view - my policy proposal was predicated on it not being a fringe view). As for my being offended - Elinor D, an editor I really respect, expressed her preference for BC/AD and I simply wanted to share with her my reasons for differing. Be that as it may, the policy proposal was some time ago and I don't feel a need to bring it up again. wWat we are dealing with right now is not Wikipedia policy i.e. all articles. We are talking about only one article, this one. As to the Manual of Style, no one here has ever claimed that it forbids AD and BC. What we do claim is that it also allows BCE and CE. Many people may prefer that any given article use only one system. But there is no policy on that, and we are not alking about all Wikipedia articles, only this one. People were divided over which one to use and felt strongly on both sides. And people on both sides acknolwedged that the opposing side felt strongly, and people on both sides expressed a desire for a compromise, and the compromise was to use both. And virtually all the major contributors to this article have been happy with that for years. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
In 1856 maybe it was a neologism; today it is not. Besides, the concept goes back to the 1770s. Today people say "Common Era" instead of "Vulgar Era" because the primary meaning of "vulgar" has changed. Nevertheless, the practice has its origin in the late eighteenth century, and that is far, far from a neologism. Aren't encyclopedias great? You can learn all sorts of stuff you didn't know! Isn't having an open mind and learning new things better than being ignorant! I love Wikipedia! Slrubenstein | Talk 15:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your constructive intent David, but to be clear, I was indeed saying that The.Helping.people.Tick was ignorant - specifically, of the fact that BCE/CE are not neologisms (though I readily admit that they emerged only around the time when two conditions existed: first, the rapid spread of the Gregorian calendar as a world-wide point of reference, and second, the decline of Church domination of Europe). But lest anyone think that by pointing our a former ignorance I was making a personal attack, let me admit - with pleasure and pride - that until I read the Wikipedia article I was ignorant as to what Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle really is; until Wikipedia, I was ignorant as to what "gravid" meant or the right way to use it (with relation to fish); I was ignorant of many things. I hope no one finds this controverial - who opens up an encyclopedia unless they are ignorant of something? Isn't that the point? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Obviously the.helping.people.tick and I agree concerning the substance of the matter. I don't see any need for me to repeat my explanation for my own position, but I do want to thank the.helping.tick for providing us with an expanded (and I think somewhat different from the neologism claim) explanation for his own view - while I don't agree, I still appreciate the explanation. And while I may have misunderstood what he was (and was not) admitting to when he mad his initial comment about neologisms, I am glad that he and I agree that admitting ignorance is not at all a bad thing. I genuinely believe that one should embark on writing an encyclopedia with humility, and I really just cannot see how anyone would turn to an encyclopedia if not with some sense of humility, and a conscious desire to open one's mind. I actually think these are important values that the Wikipedia community should promote, and I would be disappointed if anyone took my remarks as a personal attack. I took the.helping.people.tick's assertion that he believed BCE/CE to be a neologism on good faith. It appears that he took my comments on good faith as well and I appreciate it. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Most people participating in this discussion, on both sides, have constructively stuck to the issue at hand: what convention should be used specifically in this article. I think it is a very bad idea to let this discussion turn into an argument over whether BCE/CE are in and of themselves reasonable or acceptable for general use. This would be comparable to arguing over "the truth" and one thing we know about the major policies of Wikipedia is that they are designed to guide a community of people who will never agree as to what the truth is, byt taking "the truth" out of the picture. Wikipedia is not the place to argue whether AD/BC or CE/BCE are "right" or "wrong" (and John. Smith's, I do question your good faith when you bring up the names of the week - unless you are just joking in which case I take it back with apologies ... but many people do slip from arguing over BCE/CE to names of the week and arguments that anyone who uses BCE/CE is insonsistne and all these amount to arguments against BCE/CE itself i.e. an argument that in some general way it is stupid or wrong. I have never made that argument bout AD/BC, and no one should be making that argument about BCE/CE for this simple reason: in the Wikipedia comunity there are people on both sides who will never change their minds. The only question is, how can such people, with such divergent points of view, work together. People on both sides need to acknowledge that the task is not to change one another's minds about their own beliefs or personal preferences, but rather to seek out acceptable compromises or a framework that enables people with opposing views to work together. So what do we do with this page? We have an NPOV policy that does not address dating conventions but that does make it clear that Wikipedia is not the place to argue over the truth, that multiple points of view should be presented, and that we should present not our own views but views from verifiable sources. I have read history books about Jesus and the Gospels that use AD/BC, and also that use BCE/CE. We also have a manual of style that permits both conventions ... if someone wants to argue that this guideline should be changed, do not do it here, do it on the guideline talk page, or propose a new policy and debate it there. But the manual allows both. It expresses a preference for using the first convention used in an article (which in this case was AD) but it is fair for me to remind people that this is a guideline, not a policy, which means that the people who made it a guideline rather than a policy understood that there could be exceptions. It also expresses a preference for consistent use within an article. Again, these are guidelines, not rules that we must blindly follow. So we are left with this: what do we do with this article? I repeat my initial claim: several years ago people worked out a compromise that satisfied almost everyone on both sides and that has been fairly stable. What John Smith's or other people should be working at is not changing my mind or trying to prove I am wrong, they should be trying to work out an arrangement that will not result in an edit war between editors acting in good faith but with divergent views. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
John, I am sorry that you missed the part where I wrote above, "unless you are just joking in which case I take it back with apologies" - I assumed that this would be enough to show you that I intend to be civil, and that I was acting in good faith. It really is possible for me to misunderstand you while acting in good faith, and I do not think that, given that I noted the apolgy to you, you are bieng fair to question my good faith. As to the date of the compromise, I forget when it was. I suggest you go back through the edit history to see when we started using the two together, and then look at the talk at that time. As to your question about whether I will read other articles using AD, I decline to respond. it is none of your business, and it is not relevant to this discussion. You seem to have missed my point entirely, that this is not the place to debate the validity of someone's views. But your bad faith is now evident: you are using my willingness to compromise against me. I have made it clear that I accept the use of BC/AD in certain cases, and you are implying that if I do I have no grounds to insist that BCE/CE should be used. You are implying that I have to be as dogmatic as you, and that if I insist on including BCE/CE I then ought to oppose every instance of BC/AD. I guess you will simply never understand what it is like to be a tolerant and compromising person. Of course compromises lead to inconsistencies. But i am willing to live with that to get along with other people. You are incapable of this and I doubt you will ever understand. If I am wrong I APOLOGIZE but you will convince me that I am wrong only if you stop questioning my beliefs and accept that I have a right to have them even if you do not share or understand them. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this boils down to a matter of what is more important, getting rid of the dual notation, or promoting the notation you prefer (because in wikipedia's eye, neither era notation is superior: both are acceptable). Here is a question. To those who hate the dual notation, would you support choosing the notation you like less over using the dual notation? Do you dislike the dual notation so much that you'd could live with either BC/AD or BCE/CE as long as they both weren't used? Because, the above arguments haven't so much revolved around the dual notation being so bad, but instead arguments for why one specific notation is superior to another. Seriously, ask your self, if you dislike the dual notation so much, could you live with the less preferable era notation? Could John Smith and The.helping.people.tick live with BCE/CE if it meant we got rid of the dual notation? I don't believe, after all the above debate, we've progressed any further than when we started. For those who hate CE, having BC/E is better than BCE by itself, and for those who hate AD, having BC/E is better than having BC by itself. So where are we in regards to getting this article up to FA status? Oh yeah, like I said in my initial post above, all progress towards FA work would halt if we got into another era notation debate. Can we agree that what we have now is the best we will get and finally move on?- Andrew c [talk] 15:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Once again John Smith's misconstrues the situation. I agree with John that we should not remove something just because it offends some people. But none of the people JS has been arguing against have advocated removing something they find offensive. I and others have only argued for adding another notational system that represents an alternate point of view, thus providing multiple points of view and being consistent with the spirit of NPOV. Doesn't anyone else see the irony? It is John Smith's and as far as I can tell only JS who is arguing to remove something because it offends him - he wants BCE/CE removed. Now he provides the example of people who would remove something they don'tlike, and argues against their intolerance. Well, it is you who wants to remove something you don't like, so I guess it is you who are being intolerant. And disingenuous, if you thought you could use this argument to slur people like me as intolerant, when it is you who is trying to censor a point of view you do not like. Neither I nor anyone else here has srgued for removing a view we don't like. Only you do that. Avery's comment below is right on target: what are you going to do next? Continue to waste time just to spread your own inhtolerance and insult others ... or actually do some research and add to the contents of the article? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick comment from an editor who hasn't bothered with this article in about two years: Has anyone thought to consult modern style guides? The Wikipedia MoS doesn't provide any help one way or the other, but I'd ask if we've ever checked, say, Chigago, MLA, APA, or any other style guides to see what their position on the matter is. -- Avery W. Krouse 13:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I strongly favor using BC/AD only in this article. For one, there are no other articles I've come across that use both versions; the "common era" or "anno domini" seem to fall to the preference of the primary author. So there's no reason for people to insist that this dualism has to exist in this, the article where it makes the least sense to treat BC/AD as questionable. Since anyone who knows what the "common era" is referring to, is certainly aware of the BC/AD numbering system--since they're exactly the same, after all--then there is no increase in clarity by using BCE/CE. The only difference between the two systems is that one avoids the appearance of admitting that EITHER Jesus's spiritual or historical significance is the reason for the supposed year of his birth being used as the pivot for measuring recorded history.
It would make just as much sense to arbitrarily substitute a different label for the Muslim system of numbering years based on the birth of Mohammed. The only purpose would be to say, "We accept your numbering system, but we wish to erase the notion that Mohammed plays any central role in your history." In fact, it is usually with the excuse that we should try not to offending Muslim sensibilities, that this three-letter method is used for erasing more of Western culture. The fascination with BCE/CE is only one of the methods in vogue with the thought police at today's universities, but it is particularly jarring to have it show up here.
I would truly like to see Wikipedia remove itself from the culture war, and from the forefront of political correctness enforcement, and at the very least allow the reference to Jesus Christ's birth to take place in the year that was named after him. Preston McConkie 08:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Got fed up with having to scroll so down so much so have started a new section - hope no one minds.
So far John Smith's has not demonstrated any new consensus for changes of dating convention to the article so I think we can safely say we have exhausted this and should go back to the FA status push. Any accusations of "bullying" "tyranny" or other such inflammatory language will be treated with whatever level of intervention is required to get it to stop. We have discussed this to death and I personally have put time into retrieving old discussions to help others understand the background of this compromise (a bit of a waste of time as far as I can see as it seemed to throw petrol on the accusations bonfire). We have been civil and kept to the point despite provocation and attempts to sidetrack so I am confident that any outside bodies reading this thread will see it as (on the whole) wikipedia's discussion methods working well.
As an aside I will confess to have "wikistalked" John Smith's contributions list and have found that the BC/AD change is prominent in his editing - almost to the extent that I would call it a "campaign [9] [10] [11] [12] (there are more but this gives a flavour). This is not healthy and could be considered a violation of WP:POINT. Hopefully we will now move on. Sophia 15:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, I've been monitoring this for a couple of days now, and while I certainly don't plan on diving back in like I did in the User:Robsteadman days (we all remember that, eh Sophia, SlRub?), I have noticed an interesting, and frighteningly similar trend. So let me post this question to all: What if this discussion just ... ended ... right now? John Smith's, you seem to be advocating a complete and total change to BC/AD. Well, let's say we do that. Then what? What's your next step? Will you move on to a different article to get the same goal accomplished? Or will you stick around and continue working on improving this article's content and markup? Or, let's say we don't. We leave everything as it is and you decide to move away from this topic of conversation. Again, what do you do? Do you move on to another article and fight the good fight for BC/AD? Or do you stay and work on something else? The point I am trying to make is, at the end of the day, whether or not this article reads BC/AD or BCE/CE has absolutely no functional bearing on the content and encyclopedic information contained within. Wikipedia is not about coming to a universal decision on whether or not the em dash is a valid punctuation mark. Wikipedia is not about finding a grand consensus on the terminating comma in a set. It's about providing information to others. BC/AD and BCE/CE are not pieces of information, they're commas and em-dashes in the grand scheme of an encyclopedia. Two years ago, we engaged in a three month long fight against a user who absolutely could not stand the fact that we didn't begin with a line calling "Jesus" a "possible historical figure that may not have existed at all." Much sockpuppetry, name-calling, backbiting, arguments, and annoyances ensued. Many very valuable editors got fed up and left Wikipedia for short or long times. A lot of people that could have done a lot of good on this article were driven away because of what really was a slightly significant but largely unimportant point. And here we are, arguing over BC/BCE? Come on! If "Jesus may be a completely made up historical figure" is a point for debate that we really shouldn't have spent so much time on, how much less critical is BC/BCE and AD/CE? The sad thing is, this whole issue is starting to reflect those days gone by. People are starting to get frustrated, those little double entendres are starting to fly. The civility is fading, slowly but steadily, and it will come to a head, I assure you. So let me ask you this, what if this discussion just ... ended ... right now? Everything gets left exactly as it stands today and the issue is dropped. Even if only for a week, a month, maybe longer. Perhaps we can put a warning in that upper box that says "The following subjects will not be discussed because of either agreement through consensus or lack of consensus, the chosen action is to leave them as they stand," and slap this one as the first one on the box. Sometimes consensus doesn't mean "everybody agrees." Sometimes it means, not everybody agrees so we back away for a while. And instead of arguing over the equivalent of a semicolon in a doctoral thesis, we instead focus attention on improving the encyclopedic content of Jesus on en.wikipedia.org. I'm certain we must have been doing something more important before this whole thing got started. And John, don't be another Robsteadman. Take a higher road, agree to simply let things end for a while, and maybe put forth a few content edits, or head toward other articles that have genuine issues with a mixed presence of both styles. I'm not asking you to leave Jesus alone, I'm simply asking you, as a former editor who once put forth a lot of effort on this article himself, to consider the greater good of Wikipedia before you engage in battle. Some battles can't be won, but others shouldn't be fought at all. -- Avery W. Krouse 16:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The manual of style is a guieline, not policy. It does not and cannot constrain our action. But if you insist on only one, I say: BCE and CE. This article discusses Jesus from various points of view including non-Christian, and I think BCE ands CE is appropriate. I contributed a lot to this article and spin-offs and my sources used BCE and CE. Since Preston McConkie insists on only one style, okay, I will give in to him if he gives in to me: I will change all dates to BCE and CE exclusively. If anyone deletes them I will put them back. Of course, if someont wants to propose a compromise I am all ears. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
BC and Ad do not reffer to Jesus. Jesus was neithe Christ nor Lord. That is why we cannot use these terms in this article. ButI repeat: I am open to compromise. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Slrubenstein, the manual of style exists to create clarity, and exceptions are for the purpose of adding clarity when a hard-and-fast rule would actually get in the way. Citing the emotional sensitivities of any number of contributors is not what the MoS cites as a reason for making an exception to style. Also, saying the MoS is a guideline and not a policy is not persuasive here. Policies themselves are guidelines, since it requires us to use reason and examine context to decide how to apply policies.
Just saying that you feel strongly about something does not give you the right to undo a principle that was adopted for good reasons. I refrained from deleting the BCE/CEs because the issue was contentious and was at an impasse because the participants couldn't overcome the point that the MoS allows the use of both styles. However, in reading the manual of style I discovered a governing principle that clarifies the argument.
Where a principle has been adopted by the Wiki community, it should not be subverted for emotional reasons. Either work to change the MoS's standard, or at least address the issue of why the Jesus article shouldn't be dated using the English language's dominant era tag, which was named for the approximate year of Jesus' birth. Don't duck the issue by saying you've contributed to the article and therefore you have greater claim to deciding how the eras will be tagged. I'm sure you had to justify your other contributions with citations, precedents, etc. I am supporting my own contribution with reference to defined Wiki principles, and I expect other Wikipedians to address the merits of my supporting citation and argument, rather than saying I'm too "young" in here to have any say. -- Preston McConkie 19:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Might it be appropriate to put forth a request for comment on this issue? =David( talk)( contribs) 20:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Preston, you wrote (I think) "Just saying that you feel strongly about something does not give you the right to undo a principle that was adopted for good reasons." Doesn't this hold for you too? Why do you really want to change the status quo? Why do you feel so strongly about this? Who agrees with you? The manual of style is only a guideline, it is not a rule. And you cannot make up rules for how to interpret it. Wikipedia is not one coherant community, it is made up of many communities. But in all cases the policies have the same objectives: to create a framework through which people with opposing points of view can write good encyclopedia articles. And that is all we have done here. Our convention of using both systems enables pople with opposing pints of view to get along - surely a good thing. And it does not compromise the quality of the article, which is based on the research we have all put into it, not just dating conventions. As you say, your feeling strongly about this doesn't give you the right to screw with it. I urge you to reread Avery Krouse's wise words at the opening of this section and reconsider your position. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
John Smith's repeatedly claims that I have called foir AD/BC to be removed from Wikipedia. that is a lie, and despite my explaining to him that I never said any such thing he continues to lie about me. I consider this persistent lying about m to be a personal attack. He ought to apologize to me. But he must stop his lying. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
If you are now admitting that my proposal would NOT have removed AD/BC from Wikipedia, well, apology accepted. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Please realize that assuming good faith includes talk page, as well. I've changed this section title to reflect that it was a misunderstanding. Stay cool, everyone! =David( talk)( contribs) 13:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
First, SlRub, that was a bit over the line, and highly uncalled for.
Second, as was the reply to my last comment, John Smith's has agreed to move on. So, I hereby unequivocally call for an end to discussion about the era notation for this article, effective this day, Anno Wikipaedius 2007. Move On! -- Avery W. Krouse 21:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
"...raising several people, such as Lazarus, from the dead". IMHO of the given passage, solely Lazarus was resurrected. May be Martha's brother also makes sense? -- Brand спойт 18:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
This article claims you can Reconstruct the historical Jesus by using a mythological source (i.e. the Bible)?? Give me a break! There are plenty of historical references that survive (e.g. Fragments of Celsus), of course Christians don't want the truth in here (e.g. that Jesus was born of of wedlock and that he learned magic in Egypt to fool the people in Palestine) because it might denigrate their so-called God. Last time I check, this was supposed to be an encyclopedia, not some religious site determined to spread their propaganda.
Please fix up this confusion. The article is locked and I can't. See Hillel, son of Gamaliel III. 122.148.184.76 09:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
rabbi Hillel the Elder is wrong. Hillel the Elder was not known as rabbi. rabbi Hillel was someone difference altogether. I think this statement of the Rabbis should be meant to show their attitude to messiah-claimits. "Bar Koziba reigned two and a half years, and then said to the Rabbis, 'I am the Messiah.' They answered, 'Of Messiah it is written that he smells and judges: let us see whether he can do so.' When they saw that he was unable to judge by the scent, they [ Adin Steinsaltz amends this 'they' as 'the Romans'. - ed] slew him." 124.168.9.180 04:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The first generation of tannaim is considered to begin c. 10 CE, not 70 CE. [13] Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Hillel the Elder is more than just a rabbi. He is the founder of the school of the Tannaim. Jewish Encyclopedia: Hillel never uses the word rabbi, instead: "Doctor of the Law at Jerusalem in the time of King Herod; founder of the school called after him, and ancestor of the patriarchs who stood at the head of Palestinian Judaism till about the fifth century of the common era." 75.14.220.159 07:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Rabbi is Hebrew and Mori is Aramaic. Both mean the same thing. A Rabbi in those times was not a cleric and should not be confused as one. The term after Yochanan ben Zakai was used to describe a judge who was apointed to fulfill the commandment from the verse "Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, tribe by tribe; and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment." This came into place after the Romans wanted to take over the administration of the market places and a title was required. Usage of the word rabbi ceased after this roll ceased under the Romans. In the 1300s the word was recycled among the European Jews to refer to a cleric. 124.170.180.75 07:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The Aramaic is rabboni (רבוני) . In the first century it meant teacher. G4462 G4461 75.15.200.172 18:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The 1st century Gospel of John 20:16 translates Rabboni to Koine Greek didaskale:
It could be wrong, but it's a pretty strong reference, the writer of John is well known to be anti-Jewish yet relatively knowledgeable of things Jewish. 75.14.215.47 05:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Some more refs: Catholic Encyclopedia: Rabbi and Rabbinism: "The word, derived from the Hebrew Rab, "great", originally seems to have been equivalent to "my lord"; when it became the distinctive title of the scribes the specific force of its pronoun was lost, and "Rabbi" was used very much like our "Doctor". That this title was far from unpleasant in the ears of thescribes we know from Matt., xxiii, 7. In point of fact a pupil never would omit it when speaking to or of his teacher (Berach., xxvii, 1), and it became a universal usage never to mention the name of adoctor of the Law without prefixing "Rabbi". Nay more, in order to show the person greater honour, this title was intensified into "Rabban", "Rabboni", so that in the course of time custom established a kind of hierarchy among these various forms: "Rabbi", the doctors said, "is more than Rab, Rabban more than Rabbi, and the proper name more than Rabban." The latter part of this traditional regulation has particularly in view the two greatDoctors Hillel and Shammai, always designated by their unqualified proper names; the successors of Hillel, as Gamaliel were titled Rabban, and so also was by exception Johanan ben Zakkai; Palestinian doctors are commonly known as Rabbi So-and-so, yet Rabbi Judas the Saint, who composed the Mishna, is not infrequently called merely Rabbi (par excellence); in the same manner, Rab, without the proper name, designates Abba Arika (died A. D. 247), the founder of the School of Sora, while Rab is the title prefixed to the names of the Amoras of Babylon."
Jewish Encyclopedia: Rabbi: "The more ancient generations, however, which were far superior, had no such titles as 'Rabban,' 'Rabbi,' or 'Rab,' for either the Babylonian or Palestinian sages. This is evident from the fact that Hillel I., who came from Babylon, had not the title 'Rabban' prefixed to his name. Of the Prophets, also, who were very eminent, it is simply said, 'Haggai the prophet,' etc., 'Ezra did not come up from Babylon,' etc., the title 'Rabban' not being used. Indeed, this title is not met with earlier than the time of the patriarchate. It was first used of Rabban Gamaliel the elder, Rabban Simeon his son, and Rabban Johanan ben Zakkai, all of whom were patriarchs or presidents of the Sanhedrin. The title 'Rabbi,' too, came into vogue among those who received the laying on of hands at this period, as, for instance, Rabbi Zadok, Rabbi Eliezer ben Jacob, and others, and dates from the time of the disciples of Rabban Johanan ben Zakkai downward. Now the order of these titles is as follows: 'Rabbi' is greater than 'Rab'; 'Rabban,' again, is greater than 'Rabbi'; while the simple name is greater than 'Rabban.' Besides the presidents of the Sanhedrin no one is called 'Rabban.'""
75.14.215.47 05:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
H.H. Ben-Sasson's History of the Jewish People calls Hillel a
Hakhamim: "The greatest of the hakhamim in the last generations before the destruction of the Temple was Hillel the Elder" (page 284)
75.0.11.167 07:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Or leader. He wasn't a Tanna. He was the Nasi of the Great Sanhedrin. Just call him leader with a wikilink to nasi. 124.170.201.109 06:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I've partly reverted some recent additions by User:Qwazywabbit. I edited a historiographical comparison between Jesus and Alexander the Great, to remove the unsourced and incorrect statement that no legendary material about Alexander existed by the time of Arrian. The comparison itself may be relevant, but unless it's been made by a reliable source, it's original research.
As for the additions concerning numbers of manuscripts, this topic isn't directly relevant to the historical reliability of the texts, but the placement of this section where it was in the article was likely to leave the casual reader confused between textual and historical reliability. Also, if we are going to discuss numbers of manuscripts, we need to (a) acknowledge that most "New Testament manuscipts" cover only parts of the New Testament, and (b) provide some explanation of how the number of manuscripts actually bears on textual criticism. Note that in criticism of many classical texts, most manuscripts can be eliminated from consideration as deriving from other extant manuscripts, and those that are considered can have very unequal value; in other words, having 200 manuscripts rather than 50 does not mean establishing the text is four times as easy, or even necessarily any easier. There were also sourcing problems; I doubt that Lee Strobel is a reliable source for textual criticism. EALacey 18:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
"It shows specifically that the New Testament can be corroborated from many sources, not all of which are copies of the New Testament." the sording suggests that Qwazywabbit wants to make an argument. Wikipedia articles are not the place for editors to make or try to prove arguments, period. We should of course provide accurate accounts of other people's arguments. Obviously some people think the Gospels are whoelly reliable historical sources, some thing they are partially reliable, and others think they are unreliable. We should mention the most sophisticated proponents of each view and provide an account of their views. I suspect this should be done in a linked article and here we should simply explain why there are multiple views i.e. why there is some disagreement/debate. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't making a specific case for Strobel. Obviously editors need to determine who are the most representative and influential proponents of the three views. However, I do not think we should hold all proponents of diverse views to the same standards (e.g. that they all have PhD.s from major universities) - diffeent views are held by differentgroups of people and those groups of people may have diverging criteria for what makes someone an importantt representative of their view. Obviously, whenever we present anyone's views, we need to contextualize it (wat is the person's backgrounds/credentials; who views him or her as an authority and why?) Slrubenstein | Talk 21:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I've just removed the following reference which is not a true reference for the text:
Peter zhou 05:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
This is my first time writing in Wikipedia's Talk section. So, I apologize if I made mistakes about rules, which I try not to do.
There is a research made by English scientists and Israeli archeologists about what Jesus could have looked like in Popular Mechanics magazine. I was wondering why you don't include this to some extent scientific, unlike the great masters' paintings, approach and illustriation to this article. when i make a google search with keywords "real jesus face" i run into this picture in first search results. Don't you think this article should contain this highly widespread illustration either?
Here is the link of the illustration and regarding research:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282186.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Comptrol ( talk • contribs).
I am not a Christian and so I may be off-base here and I apologize if what I say offends any Christians, but it is my sense that Christians have deeply personal - or impersonal, culturally or socially mediated - relations to Jesus and that no graphic representation of Jesus has ever really been "What Jesus (in the flesh) really looked like" but rather an expression of people's relation to Jesus. In today's secular (speucdo)sicentific age it does not surprise me that many people will be impressed by "scientific" attempts to reconstruct (it is a device in the TV shoe "Bones" but has always been at least as much art as science) faces - but I see this as just a sign of the changing times. We will never know what Jesus really looked like, or if any of us are certain they know for sure, they will never convince everyone. I have said this before: I think a gallery of images of Jesus says a lot more about art history and the history of Christianity and the feelings of Christians, than it will ever say about what Jesus looked like. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
how can jesus look like this when the bible said he has feet the color of brass (the closes to the color of brass is brown,the original earth tone of man from the dust of the middle east, neutual color of black & white). man have not migrate towards northern climate for their skin to turn white yet. the middle east is a hot region mostly desert. & the hair of wool, the only race who have actual hair of wool is africans or of african decent. white man have never in thier history have hair of wool and the picture does not show that what so ever. if you gonna tell the story of jesus please get it right including the image. why do white man continue to lie about a image of a man who saved us all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.224.237.184 ( talk) 02:05, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
NO DISREPECT. In The Middle east there were no white man in there region back then ( Go to a middle East historian in the middle east not america ), GOD (ALLAH)created one man, & one woman near eygpt (North Africa) ethiopia is near eygpt.(Scientist all over the world has prove that fact)(get the DVD the journey of man) man was force to migrate out of africa into the middle east because of the african drought, through the middle east towards a place that is now called india (Indians). a migration split, some went north and some went east on south asia continent. indians that travel north settled what was called central asia and then towards whats now called russia. another migration split one indian tribe went west across russia into europe in which it took longer to travel because of the cold climate (you're talking about well below zero climate). thats where the color of skin turn lighter and lighter through generations. the other indian tribe cross into now called alaska went south bound to america and towards south america. by the time man has explore europe, jesus has lived, died & been resurected century's ago. meanwhile africans (eygptians) that didnt travel north,travel west in africa where the climate was hotter , the skin turn more darker and darker through generations. americans always have trouble grapping that fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.224.237.184 ( talk) 02:35, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry but you're wrong C. Logan. i know about romans and the greek, both come from europe nations. in which the last of the migration chain. they came after the fact. the man created the DVD is born in america before moving to england and he is white. i can defintely tell that you haven't seen the move yet. just like a typical american always putting something down without watching first. it is supported by nations in which he travel to create the DVD movie. go to your local library (if your pride lets you go to one) and rent it. Europeans later learn to build object that can float on water, then sailed over to parts of middle east region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.224.237.184 ( talk) 04:59, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
the only person is out of bounds is you, this is not about the subject anymore. highlight the statement that makes me look like a bigot? (haven't you forgot that your kind not only invented that word, you made it popular and were proud of it) for treatment of blacks & other minorities in america. you people have a very long worst crimmial track record date all the way back to the romans, and still holds the record for the worst crime in the history of planet earth, and you talking smack. after what you done to the indians & blacks, they have every right to be prejudice, and the rest of the world will understand but some of white americans. but indians & blacks found ways to forgive (sometime you make it hard) you are always good at opening old wounds especially when its almost heal. white americans settled with the indians, when are white americans finaly gonna settled with blacks for 400 years of free labor and cold killings you gotten away with. whites in other countries are good and fair. is thats why many countries love to see america fall? you love war, greed & power too much. explain why america is hated now throughout parts of the world. i don't pretend to be anything except speak my mind. now i learn that you are a hypocrite and you're no different than a street thugg(since you are the first person to call names) white americans see things only one way WHITE. the truth inside of you came out, you think you know every thing but i'm not fooled.
No, first of all, please do NOT delete editor's comments on Talk Pages unless they constitute invasions of privacy or violate WP:BLP. It may be appropriate to archive comments which are inappropriate to Talk Pages, however.
Secondly, the editor's comments may be poorly expressed but they do make a valid point. Traditional European depictions of Jesus portray him as a European. Despite the natural tendency for people to depict Jesus as being like themselves, Jesus was not likely to have looked like a blonde and white-skinned European. More likely, he looked like a Palestinian. There are even arguments that he may have been black.
I agree he look more close to a palestinian perhaps. [k.davis]
Moreover, descriptions of Jesus in the Bible may very well have been written for symbolic meaning rather than literal accuracy.
See Race of Jesus for more details.
A summary of these points should be included in this article.
-- Richard 17:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
How do you pronounce JESUS?
Can someone please provide the .ogg file, thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.95.209.146 ( talk • contribs).
I have never seen such a translation. I have only really seen "God is salvation" or "the Lord is salvation." Yehoshua does not contain the letters YHWH to mean YHWH is salvation. Nor does Moses' changing of Hoshua's name to Yehoshua mean such a thing. I feel like someone did this specifically to cause offence as I don't think it was someone's arrogance. 124.170.193.25 14:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 80 | ← | Archive 82 | Archive 83 | Archive 84 | Archive 85 | Archive 86 | → | Archive 90 |
The way I see it, the only obvious thing left to fix in this article is reference the new last sentence of the second paragraph, since there are only references to Jesus-myth types, but not to inerrantist or near-interrantist scholars, or to a reference which would just plainly indicate that neither side has many people. After that, would anyone be opposed to another FA nom, I think the last time was a bit problematic because there were a bunch of references things to fix and some weird thing about expanding mention of the Apocrypha and the Jewish Messiah which I think probably wern't appropriate, but the nom was so spur of the moment, I don't think anyone who would of known how to was ready to really respond to those criticisms :/. Homestarmy 01:32, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Personally I don't think this should go for another candidacy until the BC/BCE tags are sorted out - it just looks silly. It's quite clear BC/AD should be used. The Muhammad article uses BCE, so why shouldn't this use BC? Please, none of the "oh but really all articles should use BCE" nonsense. If it's fair to exclusively use BCE for non-Christian religious figures, I think it's perfectly acceptable to exclusively use BC for Christian ones. Otherwise there's one rule for Christian religious articles and another one for non-Christians religious articles. John Smith's 15:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, fine - let's have another discussion on it.
I think the article would be better if "immaculate conception" replaced "virgin birth" throughout... What do other editors think? Petepetepetepete 11:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Uh, in theology, Immaculate Conception refers to MARY being concieved with out sin. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus' was a Virgin Birth, again maybe you didn't click on the links. Give them both a read. -- SECisek 12:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The term "Immaculate conception" is fairly unique to Roman Catholic theology, and as previously pointed out, is subject to various misinterpretations. I have never heard nor seen it used in Protestantism. I, too, agree that "Virgin Birth" is theologically correct. It also is consistent with the Apostles' Creed and other historic creeds of Christianity. Afaprof01 05:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Some Anglicans use the term and have faith in the doctrine, but some Anglicans don't self-identify as Protestant. Virgin birth IS what you want here. -- SECisek 06:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Per User Andrew C's request, my opinion is that we do a disservice to both truth and readership by sticking to the term "father." It is misleading in that it does not take into account the position of most Christians re: the Virgin Birth. I liked the most recent re-word by User RossNixon: "Joseph, husband of ' Mary" And I agree with this user that it allows for multiple beliefs (assumed father, actual father, adoptive father, etc.)
The Wiki article entitled Saint Joseph takes a lot of words, but perhaps we can "borrow" the idea expressed therein:
My personal opinion about the Jesus article is that it has become so "politically correct"--trying to be all things to all people--that it has become quite sterile, far beyond encyclopedic. Irrespective of all the different connotations about Jesus, he is the Founder of Christianity, and I don't think this article needs to apologize for that. Thanks! Afaprof01 05:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
What was wrong with:
User RossNixon: "Joseph, husband of ' Mary"
Seems to be all things while remaining NPOV. -- SECisek 06:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
There is dispute over whether Jesus thought of himself of not being Jewish. Is this category appropriate? I think not simply because it wouldn't be neutral to take sides in the debate. The article doesn't mention Jesus' conversion anywhere either, so the category isn't congruent with the article content.- Andrew c [talk] 13:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about whether the dating terms BC/AD should be used exclusively, or the dual use of BC/AD and BCE/CE should be used together. 14:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a non-issue. We have had a stable consensus for years to use both on this page. It was a consensus that was reached by many wikipedia editors who had put a good deal of work into the article. Why change? Instead of trying to stir up trouble oaver this, why don't you do something positive, like, read the latest books by historians or theologians about Jesus, or see if there are any new articles in the major peer-reviewed journals, and actually add valuable content? Wikipedia shouldn't be about going around pushing an agenda, it should be about dedicated research to improve article content. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Great comment Slr. I want to say, John Smith's, that it is wrong to phrase the debate in terms of "BC/AD vs. BC/BCE and AD/CE". This really is a Common Era vs. Anno Domini discussion. You are presenting a false dichotomy in your opening statements. I'd also like to note that There is and was no good reason not to use BC/AD exclusively is a disputed statement and is belittling the opposition. Whether their arguments are compelling enough to change is another matter, but I do not believe it is inappropriate to say that there has been "no good reason" presented in the past. I'd prefer that this RfC be withdrawn. The dating issue didn't seriously come up in our last FAC, and this discussion is likely going to stop all other progress on this article for at least the next week.- Andrew c [talk] 15:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Following a comment I wrote to ElinorD, John Smith writes, "The article's title is "Jesus", not "Jesus Christ". I also think that if people are going to be so pedantic over two letters they're going to get annoyed over the significance over the date as well." But he is wrong. I have read (and listened to) lots of comments by people who oppose BC/AD; all of them are satisfied with BCE and CE, and none of them have gotten annoyed over the date. The only people who ever raise the possibility of this objection, in all my experience, are people who actually want to use BC/AD exclusively. In other words, it is a red-herring. I have explained, in good faith, with no insults, why many people are offended by BC/AD and John Smith's' response is, in effect, I am making it up. So we are all now clear on who lacks good faith. He certainly did not take my comment in good faith. He just wants to argue. If you want to fight, go to a pub and pick one. Me, I am checking my watchlist and then going back to reading a book - you know, doing research. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Did I misinterpret your saying "Really, what evidence do you have for that?" as implying I have no evidence? I informed you that many Jews are offended by the use of BC/AD as general conventions (I mean, they are not offended when a Christian uses them, only when the Christian assumes everyone else has to use them). Why not accept what I say in good faith? I fully understand why Christians want to continue using BC and AD [1] but their reasons are precisely why many Jews do not want to be forced to use these terms. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no policy on these matters, only guidelines. Several years ago I tried to create a new policy. It lost, although my proposal had considerable support (my point only being that my view is not a fringe view. And obviously I accept the fact that the use of BC/AD is not a fringe view - my policy proposal was predicated on it not being a fringe view). As for my being offended - Elinor D, an editor I really respect, expressed her preference for BC/AD and I simply wanted to share with her my reasons for differing. Be that as it may, the policy proposal was some time ago and I don't feel a need to bring it up again. wWat we are dealing with right now is not Wikipedia policy i.e. all articles. We are talking about only one article, this one. As to the Manual of Style, no one here has ever claimed that it forbids AD and BC. What we do claim is that it also allows BCE and CE. Many people may prefer that any given article use only one system. But there is no policy on that, and we are not alking about all Wikipedia articles, only this one. People were divided over which one to use and felt strongly on both sides. And people on both sides acknolwedged that the opposing side felt strongly, and people on both sides expressed a desire for a compromise, and the compromise was to use both. And virtually all the major contributors to this article have been happy with that for years. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
In 1856 maybe it was a neologism; today it is not. Besides, the concept goes back to the 1770s. Today people say "Common Era" instead of "Vulgar Era" because the primary meaning of "vulgar" has changed. Nevertheless, the practice has its origin in the late eighteenth century, and that is far, far from a neologism. Aren't encyclopedias great? You can learn all sorts of stuff you didn't know! Isn't having an open mind and learning new things better than being ignorant! I love Wikipedia! Slrubenstein | Talk 15:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your constructive intent David, but to be clear, I was indeed saying that The.Helping.people.Tick was ignorant - specifically, of the fact that BCE/CE are not neologisms (though I readily admit that they emerged only around the time when two conditions existed: first, the rapid spread of the Gregorian calendar as a world-wide point of reference, and second, the decline of Church domination of Europe). But lest anyone think that by pointing our a former ignorance I was making a personal attack, let me admit - with pleasure and pride - that until I read the Wikipedia article I was ignorant as to what Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle really is; until Wikipedia, I was ignorant as to what "gravid" meant or the right way to use it (with relation to fish); I was ignorant of many things. I hope no one finds this controverial - who opens up an encyclopedia unless they are ignorant of something? Isn't that the point? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Obviously the.helping.people.tick and I agree concerning the substance of the matter. I don't see any need for me to repeat my explanation for my own position, but I do want to thank the.helping.tick for providing us with an expanded (and I think somewhat different from the neologism claim) explanation for his own view - while I don't agree, I still appreciate the explanation. And while I may have misunderstood what he was (and was not) admitting to when he mad his initial comment about neologisms, I am glad that he and I agree that admitting ignorance is not at all a bad thing. I genuinely believe that one should embark on writing an encyclopedia with humility, and I really just cannot see how anyone would turn to an encyclopedia if not with some sense of humility, and a conscious desire to open one's mind. I actually think these are important values that the Wikipedia community should promote, and I would be disappointed if anyone took my remarks as a personal attack. I took the.helping.people.tick's assertion that he believed BCE/CE to be a neologism on good faith. It appears that he took my comments on good faith as well and I appreciate it. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Most people participating in this discussion, on both sides, have constructively stuck to the issue at hand: what convention should be used specifically in this article. I think it is a very bad idea to let this discussion turn into an argument over whether BCE/CE are in and of themselves reasonable or acceptable for general use. This would be comparable to arguing over "the truth" and one thing we know about the major policies of Wikipedia is that they are designed to guide a community of people who will never agree as to what the truth is, byt taking "the truth" out of the picture. Wikipedia is not the place to argue whether AD/BC or CE/BCE are "right" or "wrong" (and John. Smith's, I do question your good faith when you bring up the names of the week - unless you are just joking in which case I take it back with apologies ... but many people do slip from arguing over BCE/CE to names of the week and arguments that anyone who uses BCE/CE is insonsistne and all these amount to arguments against BCE/CE itself i.e. an argument that in some general way it is stupid or wrong. I have never made that argument bout AD/BC, and no one should be making that argument about BCE/CE for this simple reason: in the Wikipedia comunity there are people on both sides who will never change their minds. The only question is, how can such people, with such divergent points of view, work together. People on both sides need to acknowledge that the task is not to change one another's minds about their own beliefs or personal preferences, but rather to seek out acceptable compromises or a framework that enables people with opposing views to work together. So what do we do with this page? We have an NPOV policy that does not address dating conventions but that does make it clear that Wikipedia is not the place to argue over the truth, that multiple points of view should be presented, and that we should present not our own views but views from verifiable sources. I have read history books about Jesus and the Gospels that use AD/BC, and also that use BCE/CE. We also have a manual of style that permits both conventions ... if someone wants to argue that this guideline should be changed, do not do it here, do it on the guideline talk page, or propose a new policy and debate it there. But the manual allows both. It expresses a preference for using the first convention used in an article (which in this case was AD) but it is fair for me to remind people that this is a guideline, not a policy, which means that the people who made it a guideline rather than a policy understood that there could be exceptions. It also expresses a preference for consistent use within an article. Again, these are guidelines, not rules that we must blindly follow. So we are left with this: what do we do with this article? I repeat my initial claim: several years ago people worked out a compromise that satisfied almost everyone on both sides and that has been fairly stable. What John Smith's or other people should be working at is not changing my mind or trying to prove I am wrong, they should be trying to work out an arrangement that will not result in an edit war between editors acting in good faith but with divergent views. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
John, I am sorry that you missed the part where I wrote above, "unless you are just joking in which case I take it back with apologies" - I assumed that this would be enough to show you that I intend to be civil, and that I was acting in good faith. It really is possible for me to misunderstand you while acting in good faith, and I do not think that, given that I noted the apolgy to you, you are bieng fair to question my good faith. As to the date of the compromise, I forget when it was. I suggest you go back through the edit history to see when we started using the two together, and then look at the talk at that time. As to your question about whether I will read other articles using AD, I decline to respond. it is none of your business, and it is not relevant to this discussion. You seem to have missed my point entirely, that this is not the place to debate the validity of someone's views. But your bad faith is now evident: you are using my willingness to compromise against me. I have made it clear that I accept the use of BC/AD in certain cases, and you are implying that if I do I have no grounds to insist that BCE/CE should be used. You are implying that I have to be as dogmatic as you, and that if I insist on including BCE/CE I then ought to oppose every instance of BC/AD. I guess you will simply never understand what it is like to be a tolerant and compromising person. Of course compromises lead to inconsistencies. But i am willing to live with that to get along with other people. You are incapable of this and I doubt you will ever understand. If I am wrong I APOLOGIZE but you will convince me that I am wrong only if you stop questioning my beliefs and accept that I have a right to have them even if you do not share or understand them. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this boils down to a matter of what is more important, getting rid of the dual notation, or promoting the notation you prefer (because in wikipedia's eye, neither era notation is superior: both are acceptable). Here is a question. To those who hate the dual notation, would you support choosing the notation you like less over using the dual notation? Do you dislike the dual notation so much that you'd could live with either BC/AD or BCE/CE as long as they both weren't used? Because, the above arguments haven't so much revolved around the dual notation being so bad, but instead arguments for why one specific notation is superior to another. Seriously, ask your self, if you dislike the dual notation so much, could you live with the less preferable era notation? Could John Smith and The.helping.people.tick live with BCE/CE if it meant we got rid of the dual notation? I don't believe, after all the above debate, we've progressed any further than when we started. For those who hate CE, having BC/E is better than BCE by itself, and for those who hate AD, having BC/E is better than having BC by itself. So where are we in regards to getting this article up to FA status? Oh yeah, like I said in my initial post above, all progress towards FA work would halt if we got into another era notation debate. Can we agree that what we have now is the best we will get and finally move on?- Andrew c [talk] 15:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Once again John Smith's misconstrues the situation. I agree with John that we should not remove something just because it offends some people. But none of the people JS has been arguing against have advocated removing something they find offensive. I and others have only argued for adding another notational system that represents an alternate point of view, thus providing multiple points of view and being consistent with the spirit of NPOV. Doesn't anyone else see the irony? It is John Smith's and as far as I can tell only JS who is arguing to remove something because it offends him - he wants BCE/CE removed. Now he provides the example of people who would remove something they don'tlike, and argues against their intolerance. Well, it is you who wants to remove something you don't like, so I guess it is you who are being intolerant. And disingenuous, if you thought you could use this argument to slur people like me as intolerant, when it is you who is trying to censor a point of view you do not like. Neither I nor anyone else here has srgued for removing a view we don't like. Only you do that. Avery's comment below is right on target: what are you going to do next? Continue to waste time just to spread your own inhtolerance and insult others ... or actually do some research and add to the contents of the article? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick comment from an editor who hasn't bothered with this article in about two years: Has anyone thought to consult modern style guides? The Wikipedia MoS doesn't provide any help one way or the other, but I'd ask if we've ever checked, say, Chigago, MLA, APA, or any other style guides to see what their position on the matter is. -- Avery W. Krouse 13:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I strongly favor using BC/AD only in this article. For one, there are no other articles I've come across that use both versions; the "common era" or "anno domini" seem to fall to the preference of the primary author. So there's no reason for people to insist that this dualism has to exist in this, the article where it makes the least sense to treat BC/AD as questionable. Since anyone who knows what the "common era" is referring to, is certainly aware of the BC/AD numbering system--since they're exactly the same, after all--then there is no increase in clarity by using BCE/CE. The only difference between the two systems is that one avoids the appearance of admitting that EITHER Jesus's spiritual or historical significance is the reason for the supposed year of his birth being used as the pivot for measuring recorded history.
It would make just as much sense to arbitrarily substitute a different label for the Muslim system of numbering years based on the birth of Mohammed. The only purpose would be to say, "We accept your numbering system, but we wish to erase the notion that Mohammed plays any central role in your history." In fact, it is usually with the excuse that we should try not to offending Muslim sensibilities, that this three-letter method is used for erasing more of Western culture. The fascination with BCE/CE is only one of the methods in vogue with the thought police at today's universities, but it is particularly jarring to have it show up here.
I would truly like to see Wikipedia remove itself from the culture war, and from the forefront of political correctness enforcement, and at the very least allow the reference to Jesus Christ's birth to take place in the year that was named after him. Preston McConkie 08:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Got fed up with having to scroll so down so much so have started a new section - hope no one minds.
So far John Smith's has not demonstrated any new consensus for changes of dating convention to the article so I think we can safely say we have exhausted this and should go back to the FA status push. Any accusations of "bullying" "tyranny" or other such inflammatory language will be treated with whatever level of intervention is required to get it to stop. We have discussed this to death and I personally have put time into retrieving old discussions to help others understand the background of this compromise (a bit of a waste of time as far as I can see as it seemed to throw petrol on the accusations bonfire). We have been civil and kept to the point despite provocation and attempts to sidetrack so I am confident that any outside bodies reading this thread will see it as (on the whole) wikipedia's discussion methods working well.
As an aside I will confess to have "wikistalked" John Smith's contributions list and have found that the BC/AD change is prominent in his editing - almost to the extent that I would call it a "campaign [9] [10] [11] [12] (there are more but this gives a flavour). This is not healthy and could be considered a violation of WP:POINT. Hopefully we will now move on. Sophia 15:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, I've been monitoring this for a couple of days now, and while I certainly don't plan on diving back in like I did in the User:Robsteadman days (we all remember that, eh Sophia, SlRub?), I have noticed an interesting, and frighteningly similar trend. So let me post this question to all: What if this discussion just ... ended ... right now? John Smith's, you seem to be advocating a complete and total change to BC/AD. Well, let's say we do that. Then what? What's your next step? Will you move on to a different article to get the same goal accomplished? Or will you stick around and continue working on improving this article's content and markup? Or, let's say we don't. We leave everything as it is and you decide to move away from this topic of conversation. Again, what do you do? Do you move on to another article and fight the good fight for BC/AD? Or do you stay and work on something else? The point I am trying to make is, at the end of the day, whether or not this article reads BC/AD or BCE/CE has absolutely no functional bearing on the content and encyclopedic information contained within. Wikipedia is not about coming to a universal decision on whether or not the em dash is a valid punctuation mark. Wikipedia is not about finding a grand consensus on the terminating comma in a set. It's about providing information to others. BC/AD and BCE/CE are not pieces of information, they're commas and em-dashes in the grand scheme of an encyclopedia. Two years ago, we engaged in a three month long fight against a user who absolutely could not stand the fact that we didn't begin with a line calling "Jesus" a "possible historical figure that may not have existed at all." Much sockpuppetry, name-calling, backbiting, arguments, and annoyances ensued. Many very valuable editors got fed up and left Wikipedia for short or long times. A lot of people that could have done a lot of good on this article were driven away because of what really was a slightly significant but largely unimportant point. And here we are, arguing over BC/BCE? Come on! If "Jesus may be a completely made up historical figure" is a point for debate that we really shouldn't have spent so much time on, how much less critical is BC/BCE and AD/CE? The sad thing is, this whole issue is starting to reflect those days gone by. People are starting to get frustrated, those little double entendres are starting to fly. The civility is fading, slowly but steadily, and it will come to a head, I assure you. So let me ask you this, what if this discussion just ... ended ... right now? Everything gets left exactly as it stands today and the issue is dropped. Even if only for a week, a month, maybe longer. Perhaps we can put a warning in that upper box that says "The following subjects will not be discussed because of either agreement through consensus or lack of consensus, the chosen action is to leave them as they stand," and slap this one as the first one on the box. Sometimes consensus doesn't mean "everybody agrees." Sometimes it means, not everybody agrees so we back away for a while. And instead of arguing over the equivalent of a semicolon in a doctoral thesis, we instead focus attention on improving the encyclopedic content of Jesus on en.wikipedia.org. I'm certain we must have been doing something more important before this whole thing got started. And John, don't be another Robsteadman. Take a higher road, agree to simply let things end for a while, and maybe put forth a few content edits, or head toward other articles that have genuine issues with a mixed presence of both styles. I'm not asking you to leave Jesus alone, I'm simply asking you, as a former editor who once put forth a lot of effort on this article himself, to consider the greater good of Wikipedia before you engage in battle. Some battles can't be won, but others shouldn't be fought at all. -- Avery W. Krouse 16:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The manual of style is a guieline, not policy. It does not and cannot constrain our action. But if you insist on only one, I say: BCE and CE. This article discusses Jesus from various points of view including non-Christian, and I think BCE ands CE is appropriate. I contributed a lot to this article and spin-offs and my sources used BCE and CE. Since Preston McConkie insists on only one style, okay, I will give in to him if he gives in to me: I will change all dates to BCE and CE exclusively. If anyone deletes them I will put them back. Of course, if someont wants to propose a compromise I am all ears. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
BC and Ad do not reffer to Jesus. Jesus was neithe Christ nor Lord. That is why we cannot use these terms in this article. ButI repeat: I am open to compromise. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Slrubenstein, the manual of style exists to create clarity, and exceptions are for the purpose of adding clarity when a hard-and-fast rule would actually get in the way. Citing the emotional sensitivities of any number of contributors is not what the MoS cites as a reason for making an exception to style. Also, saying the MoS is a guideline and not a policy is not persuasive here. Policies themselves are guidelines, since it requires us to use reason and examine context to decide how to apply policies.
Just saying that you feel strongly about something does not give you the right to undo a principle that was adopted for good reasons. I refrained from deleting the BCE/CEs because the issue was contentious and was at an impasse because the participants couldn't overcome the point that the MoS allows the use of both styles. However, in reading the manual of style I discovered a governing principle that clarifies the argument.
Where a principle has been adopted by the Wiki community, it should not be subverted for emotional reasons. Either work to change the MoS's standard, or at least address the issue of why the Jesus article shouldn't be dated using the English language's dominant era tag, which was named for the approximate year of Jesus' birth. Don't duck the issue by saying you've contributed to the article and therefore you have greater claim to deciding how the eras will be tagged. I'm sure you had to justify your other contributions with citations, precedents, etc. I am supporting my own contribution with reference to defined Wiki principles, and I expect other Wikipedians to address the merits of my supporting citation and argument, rather than saying I'm too "young" in here to have any say. -- Preston McConkie 19:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Might it be appropriate to put forth a request for comment on this issue? =David( talk)( contribs) 20:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Preston, you wrote (I think) "Just saying that you feel strongly about something does not give you the right to undo a principle that was adopted for good reasons." Doesn't this hold for you too? Why do you really want to change the status quo? Why do you feel so strongly about this? Who agrees with you? The manual of style is only a guideline, it is not a rule. And you cannot make up rules for how to interpret it. Wikipedia is not one coherant community, it is made up of many communities. But in all cases the policies have the same objectives: to create a framework through which people with opposing points of view can write good encyclopedia articles. And that is all we have done here. Our convention of using both systems enables pople with opposing pints of view to get along - surely a good thing. And it does not compromise the quality of the article, which is based on the research we have all put into it, not just dating conventions. As you say, your feeling strongly about this doesn't give you the right to screw with it. I urge you to reread Avery Krouse's wise words at the opening of this section and reconsider your position. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
John Smith's repeatedly claims that I have called foir AD/BC to be removed from Wikipedia. that is a lie, and despite my explaining to him that I never said any such thing he continues to lie about me. I consider this persistent lying about m to be a personal attack. He ought to apologize to me. But he must stop his lying. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
If you are now admitting that my proposal would NOT have removed AD/BC from Wikipedia, well, apology accepted. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Please realize that assuming good faith includes talk page, as well. I've changed this section title to reflect that it was a misunderstanding. Stay cool, everyone! =David( talk)( contribs) 13:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
First, SlRub, that was a bit over the line, and highly uncalled for.
Second, as was the reply to my last comment, John Smith's has agreed to move on. So, I hereby unequivocally call for an end to discussion about the era notation for this article, effective this day, Anno Wikipaedius 2007. Move On! -- Avery W. Krouse 21:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
"...raising several people, such as Lazarus, from the dead". IMHO of the given passage, solely Lazarus was resurrected. May be Martha's brother also makes sense? -- Brand спойт 18:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
This article claims you can Reconstruct the historical Jesus by using a mythological source (i.e. the Bible)?? Give me a break! There are plenty of historical references that survive (e.g. Fragments of Celsus), of course Christians don't want the truth in here (e.g. that Jesus was born of of wedlock and that he learned magic in Egypt to fool the people in Palestine) because it might denigrate their so-called God. Last time I check, this was supposed to be an encyclopedia, not some religious site determined to spread their propaganda.
Please fix up this confusion. The article is locked and I can't. See Hillel, son of Gamaliel III. 122.148.184.76 09:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
rabbi Hillel the Elder is wrong. Hillel the Elder was not known as rabbi. rabbi Hillel was someone difference altogether. I think this statement of the Rabbis should be meant to show their attitude to messiah-claimits. "Bar Koziba reigned two and a half years, and then said to the Rabbis, 'I am the Messiah.' They answered, 'Of Messiah it is written that he smells and judges: let us see whether he can do so.' When they saw that he was unable to judge by the scent, they [ Adin Steinsaltz amends this 'they' as 'the Romans'. - ed] slew him." 124.168.9.180 04:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The first generation of tannaim is considered to begin c. 10 CE, not 70 CE. [13] Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Hillel the Elder is more than just a rabbi. He is the founder of the school of the Tannaim. Jewish Encyclopedia: Hillel never uses the word rabbi, instead: "Doctor of the Law at Jerusalem in the time of King Herod; founder of the school called after him, and ancestor of the patriarchs who stood at the head of Palestinian Judaism till about the fifth century of the common era." 75.14.220.159 07:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Rabbi is Hebrew and Mori is Aramaic. Both mean the same thing. A Rabbi in those times was not a cleric and should not be confused as one. The term after Yochanan ben Zakai was used to describe a judge who was apointed to fulfill the commandment from the verse "Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, tribe by tribe; and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment." This came into place after the Romans wanted to take over the administration of the market places and a title was required. Usage of the word rabbi ceased after this roll ceased under the Romans. In the 1300s the word was recycled among the European Jews to refer to a cleric. 124.170.180.75 07:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The Aramaic is rabboni (רבוני) . In the first century it meant teacher. G4462 G4461 75.15.200.172 18:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The 1st century Gospel of John 20:16 translates Rabboni to Koine Greek didaskale:
It could be wrong, but it's a pretty strong reference, the writer of John is well known to be anti-Jewish yet relatively knowledgeable of things Jewish. 75.14.215.47 05:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Some more refs: Catholic Encyclopedia: Rabbi and Rabbinism: "The word, derived from the Hebrew Rab, "great", originally seems to have been equivalent to "my lord"; when it became the distinctive title of the scribes the specific force of its pronoun was lost, and "Rabbi" was used very much like our "Doctor". That this title was far from unpleasant in the ears of thescribes we know from Matt., xxiii, 7. In point of fact a pupil never would omit it when speaking to or of his teacher (Berach., xxvii, 1), and it became a universal usage never to mention the name of adoctor of the Law without prefixing "Rabbi". Nay more, in order to show the person greater honour, this title was intensified into "Rabban", "Rabboni", so that in the course of time custom established a kind of hierarchy among these various forms: "Rabbi", the doctors said, "is more than Rab, Rabban more than Rabbi, and the proper name more than Rabban." The latter part of this traditional regulation has particularly in view the two greatDoctors Hillel and Shammai, always designated by their unqualified proper names; the successors of Hillel, as Gamaliel were titled Rabban, and so also was by exception Johanan ben Zakkai; Palestinian doctors are commonly known as Rabbi So-and-so, yet Rabbi Judas the Saint, who composed the Mishna, is not infrequently called merely Rabbi (par excellence); in the same manner, Rab, without the proper name, designates Abba Arika (died A. D. 247), the founder of the School of Sora, while Rab is the title prefixed to the names of the Amoras of Babylon."
Jewish Encyclopedia: Rabbi: "The more ancient generations, however, which were far superior, had no such titles as 'Rabban,' 'Rabbi,' or 'Rab,' for either the Babylonian or Palestinian sages. This is evident from the fact that Hillel I., who came from Babylon, had not the title 'Rabban' prefixed to his name. Of the Prophets, also, who were very eminent, it is simply said, 'Haggai the prophet,' etc., 'Ezra did not come up from Babylon,' etc., the title 'Rabban' not being used. Indeed, this title is not met with earlier than the time of the patriarchate. It was first used of Rabban Gamaliel the elder, Rabban Simeon his son, and Rabban Johanan ben Zakkai, all of whom were patriarchs or presidents of the Sanhedrin. The title 'Rabbi,' too, came into vogue among those who received the laying on of hands at this period, as, for instance, Rabbi Zadok, Rabbi Eliezer ben Jacob, and others, and dates from the time of the disciples of Rabban Johanan ben Zakkai downward. Now the order of these titles is as follows: 'Rabbi' is greater than 'Rab'; 'Rabban,' again, is greater than 'Rabbi'; while the simple name is greater than 'Rabban.' Besides the presidents of the Sanhedrin no one is called 'Rabban.'""
75.14.215.47 05:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
H.H. Ben-Sasson's History of the Jewish People calls Hillel a
Hakhamim: "The greatest of the hakhamim in the last generations before the destruction of the Temple was Hillel the Elder" (page 284)
75.0.11.167 07:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Or leader. He wasn't a Tanna. He was the Nasi of the Great Sanhedrin. Just call him leader with a wikilink to nasi. 124.170.201.109 06:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I've partly reverted some recent additions by User:Qwazywabbit. I edited a historiographical comparison between Jesus and Alexander the Great, to remove the unsourced and incorrect statement that no legendary material about Alexander existed by the time of Arrian. The comparison itself may be relevant, but unless it's been made by a reliable source, it's original research.
As for the additions concerning numbers of manuscripts, this topic isn't directly relevant to the historical reliability of the texts, but the placement of this section where it was in the article was likely to leave the casual reader confused between textual and historical reliability. Also, if we are going to discuss numbers of manuscripts, we need to (a) acknowledge that most "New Testament manuscipts" cover only parts of the New Testament, and (b) provide some explanation of how the number of manuscripts actually bears on textual criticism. Note that in criticism of many classical texts, most manuscripts can be eliminated from consideration as deriving from other extant manuscripts, and those that are considered can have very unequal value; in other words, having 200 manuscripts rather than 50 does not mean establishing the text is four times as easy, or even necessarily any easier. There were also sourcing problems; I doubt that Lee Strobel is a reliable source for textual criticism. EALacey 18:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
"It shows specifically that the New Testament can be corroborated from many sources, not all of which are copies of the New Testament." the sording suggests that Qwazywabbit wants to make an argument. Wikipedia articles are not the place for editors to make or try to prove arguments, period. We should of course provide accurate accounts of other people's arguments. Obviously some people think the Gospels are whoelly reliable historical sources, some thing they are partially reliable, and others think they are unreliable. We should mention the most sophisticated proponents of each view and provide an account of their views. I suspect this should be done in a linked article and here we should simply explain why there are multiple views i.e. why there is some disagreement/debate. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't making a specific case for Strobel. Obviously editors need to determine who are the most representative and influential proponents of the three views. However, I do not think we should hold all proponents of diverse views to the same standards (e.g. that they all have PhD.s from major universities) - diffeent views are held by differentgroups of people and those groups of people may have diverging criteria for what makes someone an importantt representative of their view. Obviously, whenever we present anyone's views, we need to contextualize it (wat is the person's backgrounds/credentials; who views him or her as an authority and why?) Slrubenstein | Talk 21:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I've just removed the following reference which is not a true reference for the text:
Peter zhou 05:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
This is my first time writing in Wikipedia's Talk section. So, I apologize if I made mistakes about rules, which I try not to do.
There is a research made by English scientists and Israeli archeologists about what Jesus could have looked like in Popular Mechanics magazine. I was wondering why you don't include this to some extent scientific, unlike the great masters' paintings, approach and illustriation to this article. when i make a google search with keywords "real jesus face" i run into this picture in first search results. Don't you think this article should contain this highly widespread illustration either?
Here is the link of the illustration and regarding research:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282186.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Comptrol ( talk • contribs).
I am not a Christian and so I may be off-base here and I apologize if what I say offends any Christians, but it is my sense that Christians have deeply personal - or impersonal, culturally or socially mediated - relations to Jesus and that no graphic representation of Jesus has ever really been "What Jesus (in the flesh) really looked like" but rather an expression of people's relation to Jesus. In today's secular (speucdo)sicentific age it does not surprise me that many people will be impressed by "scientific" attempts to reconstruct (it is a device in the TV shoe "Bones" but has always been at least as much art as science) faces - but I see this as just a sign of the changing times. We will never know what Jesus really looked like, or if any of us are certain they know for sure, they will never convince everyone. I have said this before: I think a gallery of images of Jesus says a lot more about art history and the history of Christianity and the feelings of Christians, than it will ever say about what Jesus looked like. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
how can jesus look like this when the bible said he has feet the color of brass (the closes to the color of brass is brown,the original earth tone of man from the dust of the middle east, neutual color of black & white). man have not migrate towards northern climate for their skin to turn white yet. the middle east is a hot region mostly desert. & the hair of wool, the only race who have actual hair of wool is africans or of african decent. white man have never in thier history have hair of wool and the picture does not show that what so ever. if you gonna tell the story of jesus please get it right including the image. why do white man continue to lie about a image of a man who saved us all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.224.237.184 ( talk) 02:05, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
NO DISREPECT. In The Middle east there were no white man in there region back then ( Go to a middle East historian in the middle east not america ), GOD (ALLAH)created one man, & one woman near eygpt (North Africa) ethiopia is near eygpt.(Scientist all over the world has prove that fact)(get the DVD the journey of man) man was force to migrate out of africa into the middle east because of the african drought, through the middle east towards a place that is now called india (Indians). a migration split, some went north and some went east on south asia continent. indians that travel north settled what was called central asia and then towards whats now called russia. another migration split one indian tribe went west across russia into europe in which it took longer to travel because of the cold climate (you're talking about well below zero climate). thats where the color of skin turn lighter and lighter through generations. the other indian tribe cross into now called alaska went south bound to america and towards south america. by the time man has explore europe, jesus has lived, died & been resurected century's ago. meanwhile africans (eygptians) that didnt travel north,travel west in africa where the climate was hotter , the skin turn more darker and darker through generations. americans always have trouble grapping that fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.224.237.184 ( talk) 02:35, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry but you're wrong C. Logan. i know about romans and the greek, both come from europe nations. in which the last of the migration chain. they came after the fact. the man created the DVD is born in america before moving to england and he is white. i can defintely tell that you haven't seen the move yet. just like a typical american always putting something down without watching first. it is supported by nations in which he travel to create the DVD movie. go to your local library (if your pride lets you go to one) and rent it. Europeans later learn to build object that can float on water, then sailed over to parts of middle east region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.224.237.184 ( talk) 04:59, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
the only person is out of bounds is you, this is not about the subject anymore. highlight the statement that makes me look like a bigot? (haven't you forgot that your kind not only invented that word, you made it popular and were proud of it) for treatment of blacks & other minorities in america. you people have a very long worst crimmial track record date all the way back to the romans, and still holds the record for the worst crime in the history of planet earth, and you talking smack. after what you done to the indians & blacks, they have every right to be prejudice, and the rest of the world will understand but some of white americans. but indians & blacks found ways to forgive (sometime you make it hard) you are always good at opening old wounds especially when its almost heal. white americans settled with the indians, when are white americans finaly gonna settled with blacks for 400 years of free labor and cold killings you gotten away with. whites in other countries are good and fair. is thats why many countries love to see america fall? you love war, greed & power too much. explain why america is hated now throughout parts of the world. i don't pretend to be anything except speak my mind. now i learn that you are a hypocrite and you're no different than a street thugg(since you are the first person to call names) white americans see things only one way WHITE. the truth inside of you came out, you think you know every thing but i'm not fooled.
No, first of all, please do NOT delete editor's comments on Talk Pages unless they constitute invasions of privacy or violate WP:BLP. It may be appropriate to archive comments which are inappropriate to Talk Pages, however.
Secondly, the editor's comments may be poorly expressed but they do make a valid point. Traditional European depictions of Jesus portray him as a European. Despite the natural tendency for people to depict Jesus as being like themselves, Jesus was not likely to have looked like a blonde and white-skinned European. More likely, he looked like a Palestinian. There are even arguments that he may have been black.
I agree he look more close to a palestinian perhaps. [k.davis]
Moreover, descriptions of Jesus in the Bible may very well have been written for symbolic meaning rather than literal accuracy.
See Race of Jesus for more details.
A summary of these points should be included in this article.
-- Richard 17:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
How do you pronounce JESUS?
Can someone please provide the .ogg file, thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.95.209.146 ( talk • contribs).
I have never seen such a translation. I have only really seen "God is salvation" or "the Lord is salvation." Yehoshua does not contain the letters YHWH to mean YHWH is salvation. Nor does Moses' changing of Hoshua's name to Yehoshua mean such a thing. I feel like someone did this specifically to cause offence as I don't think it was someone's arrogance. 124.170.193.25 14:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)