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The longstanding text was
it was changed by LotR to
and I have tried out
I agree that saying that the historical task is "difficult" is a little POV, so instead of singling out scholars that have difficulty, I changed the —wording to be less decisive and more neutral, stating they debate the accuracy. I also removed "in secular records" which was added, because historians accept multiple attestation as a valid criteria for historical reliability. That means if something can be independently verified in multiple non-secular sources, it can still be considered historical. I hope these changes are well met, but I've taken the time to explain them further here on talk in order to give space for community discussion. Also, I removed the following text that was added in a comment in the main article The gospels themselves are historical documents, written within the lifetimes of the apostles. Luke himself is considered by some to be "a historian of the first rank". I'm not exactly sure why it was added. It was unsourced and in comment code so it seems like commentary. Is there something we need to discuss on talk? Do we need to make changes to the historical Jesus section? - Andrew c 17:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
- "I too, having followed the whole course of events accurately from the first, have decided to write an orderly account for you, in order that you may be sure of the reliability of the information which you have received." — Luke 1:3-4
I reject the terms secular scholar and Christian scholar; there are only scholars. Individual scholars may be people of faith, but those are personal issues. Use a reference; outside of that be careful creating reasons why they are unreliable. History is difficult to verify because we don't have mulitple, independent sources for the same event. Scripture, by it very nature, is first and foremost an instrument of faith. Attempting to make it more than that is difficult. -- Storm Rider (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a debate we have had many times in the past - I agree in general with AndrewC and Jonathan Tweet. There is an important issue here and it is a tricky one. On the one hand, it is silly to say that all scholars are the same, just scholars ... a theologian and a historian are both scholars, but they are driven by different interests and use different methods and are accountable to different communities. On the other hand, it is silly to suggest that because one is a Christian, even a devout and pious Christian, one cannot use the same methods as - let's say, for the sake of argument - an atheist. The problem is what kind of language to use. In the past I have favored the term "critical scholars" not because I distinguish between them and Christians but because it is an attempt to define a kind of scholarship independent of one's religious beliefs. perhaps a more precise and effect way to do this would not be to use an adjective to qualify "scholar" at all, but an adjectival phrase like "scholars who employ x y z methods" - wordy, I admit, but clearer. Be that as it may, we do have to distinguish between scholars (whose degrees may be in theology, Bible, or religious study) who study the Bible as historians and other scholars who study the Bible for theological or homilitic purposes. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Short thrift was given to parallels between the Jesus myth and earlier myths. This should be developed further. In the Encyclopedia of Myth and Secrets, there is a passage about the Syrian Adonis being born in the same cave in Bethlehem that Jesus was born in, to a virgin named Mary, who was later sacrificed. This was 300 years before Jesus. Let's see a comparison also with all the various Greek, Roman, Sumerian and Egyptian savior/dying/revifying gods. Astarte9 21:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Should this article feature a ref to " Yahshua"? Or would that be confusing since "Yahshua" is arguably merely a sect based, dogmatically informed translation of "Jesus" with apparently no true historical or philological merit? LCP 19:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a little strange that nowhere in the first paragraph does it mention that Jesus is regarded by Christians as the son of God! Is this left out for a reason or may I add a sentence to the first paragraph please?
Also, there is a sentence about fulfillment of prophecy that claims that Jesus fulfilled "many" of the prophecies of the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. According to the New Testament, every prophecy was fulfilled, and I think it may be misleading to suggest that there are some prophecies Jesus may have not fulfilled (according to the Christian faith.) Should that be changed to a more neutral stance? Bonjour123 02:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not you believe Jesus to have forfilled all the Jewish prophecy concerning the Messiah, depends upon which account of Jesus' life you believe in. For instance, if you believe Jesus died upon the cross, then you cannot believe that all the prophecy was forfilled. This is because one of the prophecy's is that Jesus would bring the word of God to all Jewish people's. During the time of Jesus, Jewish tribes were scattered as far west as France and north Africa, and as far east as Persia, Afganistan, and Sindustan (modern Pakistan). Orthodox Christians believe Jesus died before personally being able to preach to these Jews. Some other groups do not. 86.4.59.203 01:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Holger.
Can i just point out, he HAS bought the word of god to all jews... how many jews dont know about jesus!! dosent say he had to do it personally, he was just the messenger Teta 18:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
1. Jesus' death on the cross for human salvation was prophesied in Old Testament, more specifically Isaiah 53. interestingly in this passage it's also mentioned that after that "He would see the light of life and be satisfied." this was also fulfilled in His resurrection.
2. as Teta pointed out, He brought the Word of God to all Jews not only by Himself but also by His messengers (apostles) & His followers since then. (and He has been in control of all them - including when Apostle Peter was miraculously released from the prison through an angel of God). it's true that Jews were scattered to Europe & Persia etc but the Gospel was spread throughout these areas in early Christian history. Siung99
1. I would have to agree with this. Why does the first paragraph have to portray a secular view of Jesus? Just because the "darkness cannot comprehend the light" doesn't mean we have to leave the most important part about who Jesus is out of the first paragraph.
2. Could anybody name a biblical prophesy that Jesus did not fulfill? The Bible doesn't say Jesus would bring the word of God to all jewish peoples. The Jews were and are one people even if they were scattered. Could you please quote the scripture that supposedly says this? 125.239.90.29 12:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Continuing Ministry Orthodox Christianity considers that since Jesus is still alive, in heaven, he continues in a ministry of prayer and intercession there for the world. He also continues to influence individual peoples lives through well attested miracles and life changing revelations. Evangelicals and others consider the "Jesus lives in their hearts" giving individual comfort and guidance. This deserves a mention (or not?) Cosnahang 15:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article states, factually, that Joseph was Jesus' father. From the point of view of this world religion, the Virgin Mary and Jesus' miraculous birth are absolute and fundamental concepts in Christianity without which the religion is reduced to nothing but folklore. The article should state instead that Joseph led Mary and the baby Jesus to safety in Egypt after being warned in a vision to do so. 194.54.8.205 09:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)RKravis May 2007
In history and the Bible Joseph is considered Jesus father but this article should also add he is not Jesus birth father and how Jesus was born soley from Mary/-- Migospia 14:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I would gather that as Wikipedia is an impartial source the article should either project certain facts about the man Jesus is believed to have been (he does turn up on Roman records) or present both viewpoints, I'd go for the latter but I am a mere WikiNoob. Henners91 07:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
How is this even an issues? He should obviously be referred to as Jesus's father here. There is an article about the Virgin Birth linked from the introduction. It would violate NPOV to claim that Joseph wasn't Jesus's birth father. But it already mentions the debate when it links the Virgin Birth article. I see nothing wrong here. JeffBurdges 18:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
According to the Christian belief, a required belief to be a Christian, Jesus had no biological father. If there should be a "father" mentioned, it should be God, since Jesus many times refered to God as "Father" and "My Father". - Yancyfry
John 3:18 refers to Jesus as "the ONLY begotten Son of God," this clearly shows that he is not the Son of God in the same way that God's creations (other people) are his children. The word begotten shows the biological relationship between Jesus and God the Father. 125.239.90.29 12:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
No, the article correctly refers to Joseph as Jesus' father, as many christians also do, but then explains the Virgin Birth belief. How can you do this any other way? JeffBurdges 12:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Because he is trolling. Just like that. Putting Jesus' biological paternal line aside, Joseph was indeed Jesus' legal father, just and simply like that. I am Catholic and I've never had doubts or trouble about Jesus and/or other Jewish people calling Joseph his father. However, God IS his Father. Capitals making a big difference in here. Jeeze, trolls rant about this as much as about Jesus' brothers and sisters...-- Kim Kusanagi 20:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
hi guys. it seems you got confused about the fatherhood of Joseph. Joseph was not His biological father, because Mary had got pregnant before Joseph married her. but he was his legal (human) father too. True, Jesus did refer to God as "His Father", as He had the unique status: both as man and as God. (God who became man).
(moved from further down to include with earlier discussion) Afaprof01 00:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
There have been discussions in the past on how to modify the word "father". One interpretation is the Joseph was Jesus' step-father. However, that term is not used once in the gospels. This section is Life and teachings, as told in the Gospels, so we must follow the gospels here. There are placed to insert various Christian interpretations of the "raw data", if you will (like the Christian views section). However, we cannot present one interpretation of the data as if it were the truth. Therefore, as we have decided in the past, it is best to simply leave the word "father". It could be "legal father", it could be "biological father", it could mean any number of things. We leave it up in the air because the gospel accounts are not clear. Anything more would be adding interpretations, and choosing one interpretation is not neutral. What do others think about father? This has come up multiple times in the past, so is it really that controversial? Is there a better solution?- Andrew c [talk] 14:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It was my change that resulted in the rv. I yield. On further reflection, Luke informs us that when Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to the temple to be circumcised, "his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him" (Luke 2:33). Luke does not add the words adoptive, foster, or legal. He simply calls Joseph "his father." The same Luke who had written about the Virgin Birth now calls Joseph the father of Jesus. Afaprof01 00:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Moved to Mmirachi (talk). Please join in...
The following has been added "As customary since the legalisation of Christianity in the 4th century, he is shown bearded and with the long hair and strong features that identify him as a Jew. He is enthroned as in the Book of Revelations". Firstly what on earth does it mean to say that "strong features" identify Jews? Secondly, beards were unfashionable in the 6th century, yes, but they were fashionable earlier and are regularly depicted on Antonine rulers. More importantly, they were depicted on ancient Greek philosophers. Early depictions of Jesus do not show him as bearded, and it's unclear whether this convention originally emerged as a specific signifier of Jewishness. The phrase "Greco-Roman priest and king" has nothing to do with paganism. It refers to his costume and regalia. Paul B 09:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Early depictions of Jesus were indeed greek in style, and somewhat similar to greek perceptions of deity. The public image of Jesus change dramatically upon the re-immergence of the Turin Shroud approximately 1300AD. After which time, the typical image of Jesus became established. 86.4.59.203 01:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Holger.
I'd like to comment on some things in the following paragraph that I think could benefit from some tweaking.
"The date of Jesus' death is also unclear. The Gospel of John depicts the crucifixion as directly before the Passover festival on Friday 14 Nisan (called the Quartodeciman), whereas the synoptic gospels (except for Mark 14:2) describe Jesus' Last Supper as the Passover meal on Friday 15 Nisan; however, some scholars hold that the synoptic account is harmonious with the account in John.[10]"
1. I don't know that the Gospels mention Friday at all. Perhaps this word should be deleted.
2. Does the word "Quartodeciman" refer to the date itself, or the controversy surrounding the date, and to the Christians who observed Passover on that date (as opposed to the Sunday.) In brief: isn't the word an adjective?
3. I am aware of the issues in harmonizing the synoptics with John when it comes to the Last Supper. Some harmonizations suggest that there were two Passover celebrations, one on the eve of the 13/14, and the other on the eve of the 14/15. I would not say that the synoptics say the Last Supper was on the 15th, because this presupposes that all Jews celebrated on the same night, which may not be the case.
I'm not sure if my 3rd point is very clear. I can try to clarify if anyone wants to pursue this. I suppose what I'm suggesting is that we simply say something to the effect that there is a dispute as to whether the Last Supper was a Passover seder, because the synoptics seem to present it as such, but John appear to say otherwise. This could be the topic of a whole article.
-- Hrankowski 05:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
My own church follows John's chronology partly because even the Synoptics say that leavened bread was used at the institution of the Eucharist, which could not have happened on the Passover. (The word used for bread is "artos", which always means leavened bread unless otherwise stated. Everywhere else unleavened bread is mentioned the ordinary word for it is used, "azymes". For example, the "Feast of Unleavened Bread" is «Ἂζυμα» at Mark 14:1.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 10:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Currently, Jesus is listed under "divinities" in the Wikipedia:Good_articles. While he is viewed as God in mainstream Christianity but this is not universally held (e.g. among Muslims or some scholars). Any suggestions? -- Aminz 08:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Just letting those who watch this article that God the Son, which was a long standing redirect to the Christian views of Jesus article, has recently been turned into a stub. If anyone wants to contribute to that article, or restore the redirect, or has any opinion on the matter (good or bad) please feel free to check it out.- Andrew c 21:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't his relationship with Mary be mentioned somewhere? I know that the Church's view is that he remained a virgin, but there is a lot of evidence otherwise.
Andrew V. 15:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
A more important issue for this page is: What about all the parts of the Jesus story that are taken from other "profits"? There are many views about what parts of Jesus's story are actually copied from other belief systems. Or other less important contemporary wandering profits. It'd be good to explain more of this. JeffBurdges 15:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
We have pages for that too. See Jesus-myth hypothesis, Mythographic perspectives on Jesus, Historicity of Jesus. Paul B 17:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no real evidence supporting this claim. This Mary & Jesus relationship is not against the Bible though. I do not remember anything said that Jesus will be a virgin, only born of a virgin. But there is nothing in support of this either. This probably would've been recorded if so. - Yancyfry 02:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Note- The Bible clearly prophesizes that Jesus will not only have a family but children...
The commentators above and others claim there is no proof that Jesus had a family when the bible prophesied that he did. See Isaiah.
o He shall see his Seed - Isaiah 53: 10
o He shall sprinkle his Seed across many nations - Isaiah 52:15
o Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and His Maker, ask me of things to come concerning My Sons ... Isaiah 45: 11
The only source settling this all out for On Point consideration is the new book - see link below.
This subject was popularized in the recent best seller Da Vinci Code where after chasing all over Europe the Heroine is found to be a descendant of Jesus. But that fictional account would claim that after 2000 years any children of Jesus and descents would come down to only one person...(a silly view.)
See link below to book discussing all this in detail AND the many proofs of descendants from Jesus down through time esp to Euro Royal lines .. all well known and understood; but the commentators above are not educated in any of this and so deny it ... when it is well established.
Book showing descents from Jesus family to today and including descent also to perhaps you ...and to US Presidents... Jesus family descents to today
See also Desposyni—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.200.211.121 ( talk • contribs) 04:46, 4 July 2007.
'signature added' /s/ cmpkkllef .
it appears that people are claiming that the roman catholic church is behind some form of cover-up concerning a possible family of jesus'.
ok let it be known i am not a catholic and find their theology to be very askew from my beliefs as a protestant. however, if there is some cover-up we should consider the question "why"? and also we must consider evidence.
now, apparently, there is only the gospel of thomas an apocryphal gnostic text that includes one fragmented line which states something akin to the fact that Jesus loved Mary the most. considering firstly the fact that the gospel itself is questionable then certainly this one fragmented line is hardly conclusive evidence and it certainly doesn't consist of itself as "plenty of evidence" as has been stated in the talk page earlier.
furthermore, none of the actual accepted gospels even offers a single hint (which i feel compelled to remind the readers is all the gospel of thomas offers) that Jesus had a wife or children. it certainly wouldn't have been a taboo or something the first Christians would have felt needed to be hidden. marriage and children are ordained by God and supported by plenty of biblical passages.
therefore, if Jesus did in fact have a wife and children. it wouldn't have been anything anyone would have any particular reason to cover up. secondly, the actual lack of evidence doesn't offer us wikipedia authors any sources to quote besides current literature trying to ressurect an idea debunked already by mainstream scholars. 70.156.11.235 20:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to start trying to resolve some of the issues in the April FAC which failed, and I think the Sources on Jesus' life section is a good place to start, because I think what i'm about to suggest is more or less an obvious fix. One of the objections raised that was the "Sources on Jesus' life" section needed more information about the Apocrypha, (At least, I think that was what someone was trying to get at) but I have serious doubts that part of what is there now is relevant itself, specifically, the last paragraph:
None of this seems to have to do with Sources on Jesus' life at all. This paragraph seems mostly about the formation of Biblical canon and its impact on Christian tradition, indeed, besides the Infancy gospel and the Gospel of James, none of the works mentioned claim to say anything about Jesus' life at all, as far as I can tell from their Wiki articles. And then, of course, the Infancy gospel is sort of obviously a medieval fairy tale at best, are there really that many notable people out there who take it as a serious source on Jesus' life? Nextly, I was under the impression Thomas was just a collection of supposed sayings of Jesus, rather than something providing information about Jesus' life. The only book here that I don't know much about the relevance of is the Gospel of James, but since it's only being listed in the context of just being important to Christian traditions and beliefs with the rest of these, I don't think just being in this list is really adequate mention of it as a possible source on Jesus' life, if it is even taken seriously itself. The most obviously irrelevant thing here, however, has got to be the last sentence, what possible relevance does it have in relation to Jesus' life? I understand that there are many people who believe the Gospel of Thomas to be important in relation to Jesus though, and I don't want to accidently remove something that might be important to the article, so for now, all I propose is to remove the last two sentences. Homestarmy 21:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I found the following paragraph under "Other Views" confusing.
There are many non-religious people who emphasize Jesus' moral teachings. Garry Wills argues that Jesus' ethics are distinct from those usually taught by Christianity.[112] The Jesus Seminar[113] portrays Jesus as an itinerant preacher (Matthew 4:23), who taught peace (Matthew 5:9) and love (Matthew 5:44), rights for women (Luke 10:42) and respect for children (Matthew 19:14), and who spoke out against the hypocrisy of religious leaders (Luke 13:15) and the rich (Matthew 19:24). Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers that many consider to have been a deist, created a "Jefferson Bible" for the Indians entitled "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" that included only Jesus' ethical teachings.
After reading the first sentence, I expected the views of "non-religous people", perhaps atheists, agnostics or politcal leaders. Instead, the views of two quite religious persons and one very religious institution are described.
-- William Warner 06:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Since User:Vexorg insists on having a section in the article dedicated to this Zergeist movie, and an external link by religioustolerance.org, I feel discussion on the talk page is in order, since I do feel this section, its rationale for existance, and the external link are quite, well, lousy. First of all, Zeitgeist the Movie is a conspiracy theory film. It is a mixture of conspiracy theories dealing with the Federal reserve, the banking system, 9/11, and Christianity all wrapped into one, and was released only on google video as far as the article claims. There does not appear to be any especially authoritative or notable source responsible for its production, and in fact, looking at its talk page, there is even a notification there already about how without any apparent reviews on the movie, that it may not even be notable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia at all. Currently, Vexorg's section appears compleatly based on the movie, in fact, it could be construed as advertising.
Nextly, the religioustolerance.org link appears rather low quality. Only a very few of the supposed traits of Horus appear to be inline cited, and there's even a bit at the bottom about how some of Horus's supposed attributes that religioustolerance advocates the existance of have no real evidence to support their existance, according to several Egyptologists. I therefore conclude that the link probably fails WP:EL, specifically, under the "links to be avoided" section number 2, for most likely being misleading and/or unreferenced, and may fail number one, since the notability of this Horus thing does not appear like it would properly belong in the article at all, if this was going for FA status.
In conclusion, I see no valid reason for the inclusion of User:Vexorgs section, nor the religioustolerance.org link. Vexorg's usage of a warning to other editors is also highly contrarian to general Wikipedia philosophy, and his section certainly wouldn't qualify under the same kind of extenuating circumstances we have for the article's lead. Currently, I see no valid reason why I should not attempt to remove the section again. Homestarmy 22:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Why is there even a Wikipedia article on this "film"? Are there any external reliable sources? It looks like this is just a big astroturfing effort. Wikipedia is not the place to promote your Google movie. Also, at the very end of the Religious Tolerance piece, it says that they actually talked to some Egyptian history scholars and the scholars told them that their claims about Horus were incorrect. Wikipedia doesn't source articles with disproven research. I know nothing whatsoever about what the ancient Egyptians believed about Horus, but if the article being used to source the comparison itself says that its own claims aren't true, why exactly are we including it? Lastly, people seeking to attack Christianity have made tons of comparisons with ancient mythology and literature. Google and you can find comparisons made with the Odyssey, with Greek mythology, Hinduism, Buddhism, or anything else under the sun. The inclusion of this one comparison is only for the self-serving purpose of giving this google movie some free advertising in a high-visibility article that is one of the top g-hits for "Jesus". It absolutely should not be included here. Find somewhere else to advertise. -- BigΔT 00:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
There Osiris connection is mentioned and linked to in #Possible_external_influence. The discussion would fit better on the page linked to, though I'd begin with Joseph Campbell and E. Wallace Budge as sources.--
bleeding_heart 01:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
"Ascension" and "Temptation" in a couple of the headings are capitalised -- is this deliberate? Chensiyuan 01:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Being that there are well over a billion Catholics and twice as many Christians (2.1 billion), I hardy believe that the opinion of a few scholars is worthy of this much attention. Seriously. Religion aside, any reasonable person would agree that this kind of ‘trivia’ does not belong as the fourth sentence of the description of Jesus (literally, take a look, it’s the fourth sentence!). This is just plain common sense. At most, this information is trivia (despite the several articles that have been developed on the topic). Just to put things in a different perspective consider this example about Mengele:
How ridiculous does that sound! Wikipedia is becoming a credible source of information, however, people would certainly have second thoughts if they were to see such trivia in the introductions. Introductions are meant to be purely descriptive and not introduce opinions, trivia or consipiracy theories...those (if they must be included) belong later in the article. Christian or not, Administrator or not…I believe that REASON should be your guide concerning this issue. This is certainly a very important article on Wikipedia. Sure, I guess you could include this information (that is, if it’s not just an ulterior agenda imposed by someone a while ago), at most, somewhere in the body. In addition, even if someone is an atheist or non-Christian, that doesn’t mean they can’t exercise discretion about any faith, much less one that is a third of the world’s population. Putting others' faith into question is not exactly a noble way to be spending one's time (consider, for example, the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy). Lastly, after quite an exhaustive search, I really didn’t see any consensus reached in this talk page on this issue. Plus, this notion is already mentioned in the article more than once. I believe that this is a VERY valid edit on my behalf and I didn’t even remove the citation (just moved it down to one of the other mentions of this theory). I hope that reason will win out and I hope that the people that contribute here are all rational and understand this concern. Sincerely, aNubiSIII ( T / C) 09:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
While I have long fought for including the views of critical scholars (meaning, those whose interpretations of Biblical texts are not influenced by theological beliefs) and agree that we must acknowledge that many people question the existence of Jesus, I have long had problems with the last phrase referring to the mythological Jesus for two reasons. First, many of the proponents for this view are not established scholars of the Bible or 1st century Roman Palestine (i.e. they are diletantes who rely on secondary sources and whose work does not rise to the standards of peer review). Second, the most sophisticated propnents of this approach that I know of do not claim that Jesus did not exist but rather that Christianity, including the Christian Jesus, owe more to contemporary pagan mythologies than to the actual life and teachings of anyone named Jesus in the first Century i.e. this is an argument not about Jesus but about Christianity. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Homestarmy here. The early placement suggests the idea is far more important than it is. The first time I read the sentence, I thought the rest of the article was going to be ridiculous and useless. I think the idea is covered fairly well in the first paragraph of Jesus#Possible_external_influence.-- bleeding_heart 15:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
A number of recent scholars and historians of the period have seriously been considering that Jesus may have been a mythical character and was put into the historical framework as a real person by the early christian church in 110 AD. According to them this suggests that Jesus may never have actually existed. I have been researching this and it is looking increasing likely that this may have been the case. The first four gospels (mark, matthew, luke, john) don't seem to know anything about most of the apparent miracles of Jesus and the story that we would see as familar with Jesus today.
This should really be taken into consideration in the article in the interest of a fair and unbias page.
Watch the movie, the god who wasn't there.
We already have wikipedia articles dedicated to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_as_myth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_comparative_mythology
We should put a insert into the main Jesus article because this is relevant and should be linked. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.77.48.148 ( talk) 02:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
ECKnibbs 14:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, you both missed the mark about the Mengele example. I wasn't supposed to be that difficult. But, evidently, I should have noticed earlier that this discussion, and most people in it, favor one certain point of view. Advancing the position I am supporting is proving futile. I no longer feel welcome in this discussion. It's seems that throughout this discussion, as soon as someone entered supporting the opposing viewpoint about the sentence (that is, the one that I am supporting), some users here converge on that person to kick him/her out. I don't think that this is right. Apparently, that is why it is still locked down as the fourth sentence.
ECKnibbs and Sophia, I don't know if it could be more clear about NPOV on talk pages. It's written in big bold on the top of this page Wikipedia:Talk Page. Personal views/philosophies, on talk pages or in articles, impune the integrity of Wikipedia. That is simply the point that I was attempting to make. (Sophia, I'm not even gonna respond to your other comments)
It's funny, no one seems to be questioning the existence of Muhammad or Siddhartha or Abraham or regard them as myth on Wikipedia (especially not in the leads!). Hmmm..., maybe they're too afraid. Yet, Wikipedia has entire articles of the myth and nonexistence of the lead figure in Christianity. OR, maybe the "war on Christianity" is not just a political slogan. However, you'll only fool yourself if you believe that the "scholars" that point to the myth are anything more than a few conspiracy theorists. It's one thing to question the historicity of Jesus and another to question his existence. As a last suggestion then, therefore, I would replace "historical exitence" with " historicity" (after all that is the title of the article) at the very least (dropping the myth part completely). Otherwise, this article should be RED FLAGGED and a Template:NPOV should be added. Perhaps my comments will be followed by critical reponses, but I assure you, I already got the point: I am not welcome. aNubiSIII ( T / C) 17:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
So after we basically all agreed on a wording, and LotR made it go live earlier today, another user has come along and changed it to Disputes about the existence of Jesus and reliability of ancient texts relating to him are discussed later in this article and in several separate articles including Jesus and history. completely ignore our previous work. What do other users think of this version? I think referencing wikipedia articles in this manner is just poor writing. There may be some underlying ideas in that proposal that could help to improve the wording of the Andrew/LotR version, adn I'm sure we can talk them out, but I think it's premature to have an undiscussed version go live. And what up with blanking the big ref?- Andrew c [talk] 05:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I find it very weasely to say "Very few scholars believe that all historical accounts concerning Jesus are either completely accurate or completely inaccurate concerning Jesus' life." First, it is not a true statement. Throughout >2000 of history of Christianity, many (not very few) scholarly Christian theologians have agreed with the accuracy of the biblical accounts concerning Jesus. Therefore, "very few" is an inept descriptive. At the other end of the spectrum are more liberal theologians who have serious doubts about a lot of things. I like the statement: Disputes about the existence of Jesus and reliability of ancient texts relating to him are discussed later in this article and in several separate articles including Jesus and history. (1) It clearly and unapologetically acknowledges there are disputes; (2) It avoids the quantitative like "very few" which is virtually meaningless; (3) It tells the reader upfront that this article does deal with some of those disputes, so keep on reading; (4) It also tells the reader that this is not a thoroughly comprehensive article about Jesus in all respects. If it were, there wouldn't be so many others on Wiki with only subtle differences in titles. It lists only one other Wiki article, Jesus and history, which does contain references, seealso's, etc., to many other articles dealing with "Disputes about the existence of Jesus and reliability of ancient texts." It's about as Neutral Point of View as one can get. Thanks for your consideration. Afaprof01 18:00, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
OK. We've had various issues with the new proposal, leading me to believe it was premature to add it to the lead. The most recent criticism is that RossNixon claims that the belief that the entire NT account of Jesus' life is entirely historical is actually a common belief. Is there any support for that statement. Could we start getting into our sources (I know we mentioned it above, but it's probably best to actually see what the sources say, where the scholars stand before adding things to the article).- Andrew c [talk] 05:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a general comment (not in response to Andrew's last posting): To claim a historical document to be reliable is not to say it is "infallible" or "120% accurate." I keep hearing rumblings about the Gospels being "inconsistent" (on some factual details), and therefore are somehow "ahistorical." This is a non sequitur. If they were identical then it seems that they might have originated from a single source (which is not the case). The fact is, the NT canon is remarkably consistent in its portrayal of Jesus, but this is not to say that they are 100% accurate in all details.
In any event, on Friday I went ahead and made the change because there was agreement among the editors discussing this issue, followed by silence. When issues are discussed on a Talk page at length, and silence ensues, I take that to mean it is time to implement the proposed change. I would advocate restoring the sentence that was agreed on, or one of the similar variants, then hammer things out more in Talk if necessary. The original contention was not to give undue weight to an extreme minority viewpoint (the so-called "Mythological Jesus" denigration) in the lead. The objection to removing the sentence completely was that, in the spirit of maintaining NPOV, an indication of the range of scholarly opinions was given in the lead. There are no objections to this. The sentence that Andrew proposed achieved a very nice compromise that achieves the goal quite nicely. So I advocate restoring it (or one of the similar variants), then iterating from there. LotR 13:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I took a day off yesterday to heal my eyes from staring at the computer too long, so I didn't reply earlier. It's not that I don't like the idea of a new sentence that doesn't have the Jesus-myth disproportionatly mentioned in violation of lead guidelines, its just that i'm not sure anymore that the sentence suggested is correct. Since I assume we're going on the principle that the sentence there now will be replaced by one sentence, something vauge might be necessary in order to relate to the several sections given to academic opinions without only mentioning the Gospels and without trying to write in extremes of opinion that don't exist. What about something like "Scholars in fields of study relating to sources on Jesus' life have a wide array of opinions concerning the accuracy and reliability of historical documents and records pertaining to his life." Homestarmy 02:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I reverted the edits to Possible_external_influence which added Zoroaster and changed all the instances of "pagan" to "gentile." The paragraph as it was was exceptionally clear, cohesive and persuasive, in that it limited its argument to external sources that christians themselve claim, the apostle Paul, popes JPII and Benedict, and Cornell West, to name a notable few. I suggest a sentence at the end of the section would achieve more while destroying less.-- bleeding_heart 23:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick query: shouldn't typing in "Jesus" redirect to the disambiguation page? Its quite a common name in some countries, so just assuming that it refers to Jesus of Nazareth is a bit strange. I would also back changing the name of the article to Jesus of Nazareth, rather than just Jesus, for the same reason. Hagger 12:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Ghandi has a criticism and controversy page, so why not Jesus Christ? Add it in now, thank you. Zephead999 07:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Tiger, I think Jesus Christ is pretty cool. But the fact that he did ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong is disturbing. Again if Ghandi has a criticism and controversy section then don't you think Jesus Christ should as well? Again, I'm too lazy to add this in but you guys should Zephead999 07:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The article already specifies the major criticisms of Jesus: according to Christians, the belief that Jewish leaders criticized him as a blasphemer, and according to historians, that Roman officials criticized him for sedition. As far as the historical sources concerning Jesus, that is pretty much all we have. It is no surprise that there are more criticisms of Gandhi because he lived recently and the historical record of his life is much larger than that of Jesus. Many historians would also claim that Gandhi was a much more well-known and controversial figure during his life than Jesus. In my experience, most people who say they have criticisms of Jesus really have criticisms of the Christian account of Jesus - in short, what they are really critical of is Christianity, or some form of Christianity they are familiar with, and not Jesus, whom they never personally knew. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
yeah Sopiha I agree with you 100%. That's what I'm saying, we should make a seperate thing talking about the negative things Jesus has done, or what people have THOUGHT he has done if Ghandi/Gandhi, however you spell it does. Zephead999 21:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
"You actually don't agree with Sophia at all. She was saying we shouldn't have a separate section. I agree with her. Articles become tiresome both to edit and read when they're made to look like debating society transcripts. "
Actually I do agree with Sophia. There should be no seperate articles on that kind of garbage, that's why if there is one on Ghandi there should be one on Jesus Christ.
By the way I have nothing against Christianity, and i don't even know whot he hell Ghandi is. I'm a white teen from Oregon and I am highly uneducated on this type of stuff. I'd assume Ghandi for the most part would be a cool guy and if he did anything bad, it would be presumably small so it should not have it's own section, do you know what I mean? Same thing with Jesus Christ, now untill Ghandi's critcism gets removed, or one gets added on Jesus Chrsit i'll make this article a leaving HELL! Zephead999 00:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
What's with the use of both systems of dating?
I'm a little concerned about the addition of "critical secular", and I've always felt a little uneasy with the sentence Christian scholars generally believe the gospel accounts to be historically accurate; critical secular scholars, on the other hand, debate the extent of their historicity. Why do we need two modifiers, critical and secular? Are there secular scholars who unquestionably accept the gospel accounts? are there critical scholars who unquestionably accept the gospel accounts? and only when we combine the critical and the secular do we get the scholars who start to question the accounts? and also, while we are on this topic, there are many scholars who are christian who question the bible account, from Raymond E. Brown and John P. Meier, to Marcus Borg and even Robert M. Price. I think its rare to have Christian scholars who believe the accounts to be historically accurate (i.e. biblical literalism). This may be going out on a limb, but maybe we could phrase it " Christian apologists generally believe the gospel accounts to be historically accurate, while critical scholars debate the extent of their historicity." My only concern is connotations associated with the technical terms, hence the wikilinks.- Andrew c [talk] 14:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
[note, message moved up to: Talk:Jesus#New proposal from Afaprof01] - Andrew c [talk] 04:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
removed copy and paste job of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08377a.htm by 210.213.72.155 ( talk · contribs) - Andrew c [talk] 04:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the article be titled Jesus Christ? -- The Serene Silver Star 17:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Then Nazereth will have to do. Jesus just doesn't feel cmplete. -- Vitus Werdegast 04:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
it's regarded as a "miracle" to his followers. but it's also a "folklore" to smart, rationale people. 71.182.92.118 03:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
it's important to recognize that from a completely scientific viewpoint we can never say anything is "impossible". Rather, we may only say having observed such and such a circumstance for so many times we may tentatively conclude it is highly unlikely such an event may occur. Science is concerned only with observable facts and what has been observed. 70.156.11.235 19:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC) also, i must caution that liberalism (not in the political sense) remains liberal so long as it forgos fundamental declarations itself. for example, democracy is a liberal ideal but it is not liberal to say something like "democracy is best always right." or science has all the answers. 70.156.11.235 19:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Could someone clean up the notes at the bottom of the Jesus Page as it is all messed up
I think it is highly misleading to say "while other scholars hold the historical and theological Jesus to be one and the same" and then cite a 2007 book by the Pope to support this statement. The Pope's view, being the head of the largest Christian denomination, clearly belongs in the "Religious perspectives/Christian views" section. While I know that there is a grey area between when scholarship stop and religion starts, most scholars acknowledge that historical methodology cannot plausibly reconstruct the supernatural events in the Gospels. That is not to say that they didn't happen, only that a scholarly, objective methodology can only go so far in those matters. When the Pope says the historical Jesus and his theological Jesus is one in the same, is he making a theological statement of faith? or is he stating an objective conclusion from scholarly methodology? - Andrew c [talk] 00:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
What PC drivel! Wikipedia isn't a place for political grandstanding. The dates should be BC and AD only! -- Nordic Crusader 07:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
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Please note, Wikipedia is not a soap box Slrubenstein | Talk 10:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
BCE and CE stand for Before the Common Era and Common Era. They mean the same as BC and AD but are neutral in regards to religion. I think that is in keeping with the NPOV policy. Jstanierm 12:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
The claim that CE/BCE is an academic convention that has been in place for only a couple of years is either a lie, or something soneone just made up (i.e. BS) - the pracice originated well over a hundred years ago. In any event, which part of "Wikipedia is not a soap box" do you (anonymous user, not PB or John) not understand? Slrubenstein | Talk 13:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
This text was recently added to the Buddhist views section:
“ | In the book 'The Lost Years of Jesus' the author, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, claims that scrolls were found by Nicolas Notovitch in Monasteries in Tibet which spoke of the teachings of a Saint Isa, note that Isa is also the name of Jesus in Islam. The author is speculating that Jesus has traveled extensively through India and other countries in the years that are not covered in the Bible. | ” |
I don't find that Notovitch was a Buddhist, nor that his views are representative of Buddhist views. It seems that his interpretation of a text he found in Tibet, and Prophet's interpretation are that Jesus traveled in India, etc. Is this material appropriate for the section it is in? Or is it appropriate for inclusion in the article? — ERcheck ( talk) 17:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Response: Jesus or in this case Saint Isa was found to be studying AND teaching at Buddhist monasteries according to the book. So if not in Buddhism than where? Maybe under controversy, travels, historicity?
I really don't think that one person's views, especially not one person's views represented in only one of their books, is really important enough for any of these other views sections. There's just no case for amazingly special notability that I see. Homestarmy 01:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
in the muslim view of jesus... u should add that they belive that the injl was messed with which made the bible
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Archive 80 | Archive 81 | Archive 82 | Archive 83 | Archive 84 | Archive 85 | → | Archive 90 |
The longstanding text was
it was changed by LotR to
and I have tried out
I agree that saying that the historical task is "difficult" is a little POV, so instead of singling out scholars that have difficulty, I changed the —wording to be less decisive and more neutral, stating they debate the accuracy. I also removed "in secular records" which was added, because historians accept multiple attestation as a valid criteria for historical reliability. That means if something can be independently verified in multiple non-secular sources, it can still be considered historical. I hope these changes are well met, but I've taken the time to explain them further here on talk in order to give space for community discussion. Also, I removed the following text that was added in a comment in the main article The gospels themselves are historical documents, written within the lifetimes of the apostles. Luke himself is considered by some to be "a historian of the first rank". I'm not exactly sure why it was added. It was unsourced and in comment code so it seems like commentary. Is there something we need to discuss on talk? Do we need to make changes to the historical Jesus section? - Andrew c 17:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
- "I too, having followed the whole course of events accurately from the first, have decided to write an orderly account for you, in order that you may be sure of the reliability of the information which you have received." — Luke 1:3-4
I reject the terms secular scholar and Christian scholar; there are only scholars. Individual scholars may be people of faith, but those are personal issues. Use a reference; outside of that be careful creating reasons why they are unreliable. History is difficult to verify because we don't have mulitple, independent sources for the same event. Scripture, by it very nature, is first and foremost an instrument of faith. Attempting to make it more than that is difficult. -- Storm Rider (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a debate we have had many times in the past - I agree in general with AndrewC and Jonathan Tweet. There is an important issue here and it is a tricky one. On the one hand, it is silly to say that all scholars are the same, just scholars ... a theologian and a historian are both scholars, but they are driven by different interests and use different methods and are accountable to different communities. On the other hand, it is silly to suggest that because one is a Christian, even a devout and pious Christian, one cannot use the same methods as - let's say, for the sake of argument - an atheist. The problem is what kind of language to use. In the past I have favored the term "critical scholars" not because I distinguish between them and Christians but because it is an attempt to define a kind of scholarship independent of one's religious beliefs. perhaps a more precise and effect way to do this would not be to use an adjective to qualify "scholar" at all, but an adjectival phrase like "scholars who employ x y z methods" - wordy, I admit, but clearer. Be that as it may, we do have to distinguish between scholars (whose degrees may be in theology, Bible, or religious study) who study the Bible as historians and other scholars who study the Bible for theological or homilitic purposes. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Short thrift was given to parallels between the Jesus myth and earlier myths. This should be developed further. In the Encyclopedia of Myth and Secrets, there is a passage about the Syrian Adonis being born in the same cave in Bethlehem that Jesus was born in, to a virgin named Mary, who was later sacrificed. This was 300 years before Jesus. Let's see a comparison also with all the various Greek, Roman, Sumerian and Egyptian savior/dying/revifying gods. Astarte9 21:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Should this article feature a ref to " Yahshua"? Or would that be confusing since "Yahshua" is arguably merely a sect based, dogmatically informed translation of "Jesus" with apparently no true historical or philological merit? LCP 19:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a little strange that nowhere in the first paragraph does it mention that Jesus is regarded by Christians as the son of God! Is this left out for a reason or may I add a sentence to the first paragraph please?
Also, there is a sentence about fulfillment of prophecy that claims that Jesus fulfilled "many" of the prophecies of the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. According to the New Testament, every prophecy was fulfilled, and I think it may be misleading to suggest that there are some prophecies Jesus may have not fulfilled (according to the Christian faith.) Should that be changed to a more neutral stance? Bonjour123 02:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not you believe Jesus to have forfilled all the Jewish prophecy concerning the Messiah, depends upon which account of Jesus' life you believe in. For instance, if you believe Jesus died upon the cross, then you cannot believe that all the prophecy was forfilled. This is because one of the prophecy's is that Jesus would bring the word of God to all Jewish people's. During the time of Jesus, Jewish tribes were scattered as far west as France and north Africa, and as far east as Persia, Afganistan, and Sindustan (modern Pakistan). Orthodox Christians believe Jesus died before personally being able to preach to these Jews. Some other groups do not. 86.4.59.203 01:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Holger.
Can i just point out, he HAS bought the word of god to all jews... how many jews dont know about jesus!! dosent say he had to do it personally, he was just the messenger Teta 18:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
1. Jesus' death on the cross for human salvation was prophesied in Old Testament, more specifically Isaiah 53. interestingly in this passage it's also mentioned that after that "He would see the light of life and be satisfied." this was also fulfilled in His resurrection.
2. as Teta pointed out, He brought the Word of God to all Jews not only by Himself but also by His messengers (apostles) & His followers since then. (and He has been in control of all them - including when Apostle Peter was miraculously released from the prison through an angel of God). it's true that Jews were scattered to Europe & Persia etc but the Gospel was spread throughout these areas in early Christian history. Siung99
1. I would have to agree with this. Why does the first paragraph have to portray a secular view of Jesus? Just because the "darkness cannot comprehend the light" doesn't mean we have to leave the most important part about who Jesus is out of the first paragraph.
2. Could anybody name a biblical prophesy that Jesus did not fulfill? The Bible doesn't say Jesus would bring the word of God to all jewish peoples. The Jews were and are one people even if they were scattered. Could you please quote the scripture that supposedly says this? 125.239.90.29 12:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Continuing Ministry Orthodox Christianity considers that since Jesus is still alive, in heaven, he continues in a ministry of prayer and intercession there for the world. He also continues to influence individual peoples lives through well attested miracles and life changing revelations. Evangelicals and others consider the "Jesus lives in their hearts" giving individual comfort and guidance. This deserves a mention (or not?) Cosnahang 15:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article states, factually, that Joseph was Jesus' father. From the point of view of this world religion, the Virgin Mary and Jesus' miraculous birth are absolute and fundamental concepts in Christianity without which the religion is reduced to nothing but folklore. The article should state instead that Joseph led Mary and the baby Jesus to safety in Egypt after being warned in a vision to do so. 194.54.8.205 09:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)RKravis May 2007
In history and the Bible Joseph is considered Jesus father but this article should also add he is not Jesus birth father and how Jesus was born soley from Mary/-- Migospia 14:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I would gather that as Wikipedia is an impartial source the article should either project certain facts about the man Jesus is believed to have been (he does turn up on Roman records) or present both viewpoints, I'd go for the latter but I am a mere WikiNoob. Henners91 07:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
How is this even an issues? He should obviously be referred to as Jesus's father here. There is an article about the Virgin Birth linked from the introduction. It would violate NPOV to claim that Joseph wasn't Jesus's birth father. But it already mentions the debate when it links the Virgin Birth article. I see nothing wrong here. JeffBurdges 18:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
According to the Christian belief, a required belief to be a Christian, Jesus had no biological father. If there should be a "father" mentioned, it should be God, since Jesus many times refered to God as "Father" and "My Father". - Yancyfry
John 3:18 refers to Jesus as "the ONLY begotten Son of God," this clearly shows that he is not the Son of God in the same way that God's creations (other people) are his children. The word begotten shows the biological relationship between Jesus and God the Father. 125.239.90.29 12:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
No, the article correctly refers to Joseph as Jesus' father, as many christians also do, but then explains the Virgin Birth belief. How can you do this any other way? JeffBurdges 12:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Because he is trolling. Just like that. Putting Jesus' biological paternal line aside, Joseph was indeed Jesus' legal father, just and simply like that. I am Catholic and I've never had doubts or trouble about Jesus and/or other Jewish people calling Joseph his father. However, God IS his Father. Capitals making a big difference in here. Jeeze, trolls rant about this as much as about Jesus' brothers and sisters...-- Kim Kusanagi 20:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
hi guys. it seems you got confused about the fatherhood of Joseph. Joseph was not His biological father, because Mary had got pregnant before Joseph married her. but he was his legal (human) father too. True, Jesus did refer to God as "His Father", as He had the unique status: both as man and as God. (God who became man).
(moved from further down to include with earlier discussion) Afaprof01 00:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
There have been discussions in the past on how to modify the word "father". One interpretation is the Joseph was Jesus' step-father. However, that term is not used once in the gospels. This section is Life and teachings, as told in the Gospels, so we must follow the gospels here. There are placed to insert various Christian interpretations of the "raw data", if you will (like the Christian views section). However, we cannot present one interpretation of the data as if it were the truth. Therefore, as we have decided in the past, it is best to simply leave the word "father". It could be "legal father", it could be "biological father", it could mean any number of things. We leave it up in the air because the gospel accounts are not clear. Anything more would be adding interpretations, and choosing one interpretation is not neutral. What do others think about father? This has come up multiple times in the past, so is it really that controversial? Is there a better solution?- Andrew c [talk] 14:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It was my change that resulted in the rv. I yield. On further reflection, Luke informs us that when Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to the temple to be circumcised, "his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him" (Luke 2:33). Luke does not add the words adoptive, foster, or legal. He simply calls Joseph "his father." The same Luke who had written about the Virgin Birth now calls Joseph the father of Jesus. Afaprof01 00:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Moved to Mmirachi (talk). Please join in...
The following has been added "As customary since the legalisation of Christianity in the 4th century, he is shown bearded and with the long hair and strong features that identify him as a Jew. He is enthroned as in the Book of Revelations". Firstly what on earth does it mean to say that "strong features" identify Jews? Secondly, beards were unfashionable in the 6th century, yes, but they were fashionable earlier and are regularly depicted on Antonine rulers. More importantly, they were depicted on ancient Greek philosophers. Early depictions of Jesus do not show him as bearded, and it's unclear whether this convention originally emerged as a specific signifier of Jewishness. The phrase "Greco-Roman priest and king" has nothing to do with paganism. It refers to his costume and regalia. Paul B 09:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Early depictions of Jesus were indeed greek in style, and somewhat similar to greek perceptions of deity. The public image of Jesus change dramatically upon the re-immergence of the Turin Shroud approximately 1300AD. After which time, the typical image of Jesus became established. 86.4.59.203 01:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Holger.
I'd like to comment on some things in the following paragraph that I think could benefit from some tweaking.
"The date of Jesus' death is also unclear. The Gospel of John depicts the crucifixion as directly before the Passover festival on Friday 14 Nisan (called the Quartodeciman), whereas the synoptic gospels (except for Mark 14:2) describe Jesus' Last Supper as the Passover meal on Friday 15 Nisan; however, some scholars hold that the synoptic account is harmonious with the account in John.[10]"
1. I don't know that the Gospels mention Friday at all. Perhaps this word should be deleted.
2. Does the word "Quartodeciman" refer to the date itself, or the controversy surrounding the date, and to the Christians who observed Passover on that date (as opposed to the Sunday.) In brief: isn't the word an adjective?
3. I am aware of the issues in harmonizing the synoptics with John when it comes to the Last Supper. Some harmonizations suggest that there were two Passover celebrations, one on the eve of the 13/14, and the other on the eve of the 14/15. I would not say that the synoptics say the Last Supper was on the 15th, because this presupposes that all Jews celebrated on the same night, which may not be the case.
I'm not sure if my 3rd point is very clear. I can try to clarify if anyone wants to pursue this. I suppose what I'm suggesting is that we simply say something to the effect that there is a dispute as to whether the Last Supper was a Passover seder, because the synoptics seem to present it as such, but John appear to say otherwise. This could be the topic of a whole article.
-- Hrankowski 05:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
My own church follows John's chronology partly because even the Synoptics say that leavened bread was used at the institution of the Eucharist, which could not have happened on the Passover. (The word used for bread is "artos", which always means leavened bread unless otherwise stated. Everywhere else unleavened bread is mentioned the ordinary word for it is used, "azymes". For example, the "Feast of Unleavened Bread" is «Ἂζυμα» at Mark 14:1.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 10:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Currently, Jesus is listed under "divinities" in the Wikipedia:Good_articles. While he is viewed as God in mainstream Christianity but this is not universally held (e.g. among Muslims or some scholars). Any suggestions? -- Aminz 08:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Just letting those who watch this article that God the Son, which was a long standing redirect to the Christian views of Jesus article, has recently been turned into a stub. If anyone wants to contribute to that article, or restore the redirect, or has any opinion on the matter (good or bad) please feel free to check it out.- Andrew c 21:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't his relationship with Mary be mentioned somewhere? I know that the Church's view is that he remained a virgin, but there is a lot of evidence otherwise.
Andrew V. 15:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
A more important issue for this page is: What about all the parts of the Jesus story that are taken from other "profits"? There are many views about what parts of Jesus's story are actually copied from other belief systems. Or other less important contemporary wandering profits. It'd be good to explain more of this. JeffBurdges 15:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
We have pages for that too. See Jesus-myth hypothesis, Mythographic perspectives on Jesus, Historicity of Jesus. Paul B 17:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no real evidence supporting this claim. This Mary & Jesus relationship is not against the Bible though. I do not remember anything said that Jesus will be a virgin, only born of a virgin. But there is nothing in support of this either. This probably would've been recorded if so. - Yancyfry 02:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Note- The Bible clearly prophesizes that Jesus will not only have a family but children...
The commentators above and others claim there is no proof that Jesus had a family when the bible prophesied that he did. See Isaiah.
o He shall see his Seed - Isaiah 53: 10
o He shall sprinkle his Seed across many nations - Isaiah 52:15
o Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and His Maker, ask me of things to come concerning My Sons ... Isaiah 45: 11
The only source settling this all out for On Point consideration is the new book - see link below.
This subject was popularized in the recent best seller Da Vinci Code where after chasing all over Europe the Heroine is found to be a descendant of Jesus. But that fictional account would claim that after 2000 years any children of Jesus and descents would come down to only one person...(a silly view.)
See link below to book discussing all this in detail AND the many proofs of descendants from Jesus down through time esp to Euro Royal lines .. all well known and understood; but the commentators above are not educated in any of this and so deny it ... when it is well established.
Book showing descents from Jesus family to today and including descent also to perhaps you ...and to US Presidents... Jesus family descents to today
See also Desposyni—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.200.211.121 ( talk • contribs) 04:46, 4 July 2007.
'signature added' /s/ cmpkkllef .
it appears that people are claiming that the roman catholic church is behind some form of cover-up concerning a possible family of jesus'.
ok let it be known i am not a catholic and find their theology to be very askew from my beliefs as a protestant. however, if there is some cover-up we should consider the question "why"? and also we must consider evidence.
now, apparently, there is only the gospel of thomas an apocryphal gnostic text that includes one fragmented line which states something akin to the fact that Jesus loved Mary the most. considering firstly the fact that the gospel itself is questionable then certainly this one fragmented line is hardly conclusive evidence and it certainly doesn't consist of itself as "plenty of evidence" as has been stated in the talk page earlier.
furthermore, none of the actual accepted gospels even offers a single hint (which i feel compelled to remind the readers is all the gospel of thomas offers) that Jesus had a wife or children. it certainly wouldn't have been a taboo or something the first Christians would have felt needed to be hidden. marriage and children are ordained by God and supported by plenty of biblical passages.
therefore, if Jesus did in fact have a wife and children. it wouldn't have been anything anyone would have any particular reason to cover up. secondly, the actual lack of evidence doesn't offer us wikipedia authors any sources to quote besides current literature trying to ressurect an idea debunked already by mainstream scholars. 70.156.11.235 20:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to start trying to resolve some of the issues in the April FAC which failed, and I think the Sources on Jesus' life section is a good place to start, because I think what i'm about to suggest is more or less an obvious fix. One of the objections raised that was the "Sources on Jesus' life" section needed more information about the Apocrypha, (At least, I think that was what someone was trying to get at) but I have serious doubts that part of what is there now is relevant itself, specifically, the last paragraph:
None of this seems to have to do with Sources on Jesus' life at all. This paragraph seems mostly about the formation of Biblical canon and its impact on Christian tradition, indeed, besides the Infancy gospel and the Gospel of James, none of the works mentioned claim to say anything about Jesus' life at all, as far as I can tell from their Wiki articles. And then, of course, the Infancy gospel is sort of obviously a medieval fairy tale at best, are there really that many notable people out there who take it as a serious source on Jesus' life? Nextly, I was under the impression Thomas was just a collection of supposed sayings of Jesus, rather than something providing information about Jesus' life. The only book here that I don't know much about the relevance of is the Gospel of James, but since it's only being listed in the context of just being important to Christian traditions and beliefs with the rest of these, I don't think just being in this list is really adequate mention of it as a possible source on Jesus' life, if it is even taken seriously itself. The most obviously irrelevant thing here, however, has got to be the last sentence, what possible relevance does it have in relation to Jesus' life? I understand that there are many people who believe the Gospel of Thomas to be important in relation to Jesus though, and I don't want to accidently remove something that might be important to the article, so for now, all I propose is to remove the last two sentences. Homestarmy 21:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I found the following paragraph under "Other Views" confusing.
There are many non-religious people who emphasize Jesus' moral teachings. Garry Wills argues that Jesus' ethics are distinct from those usually taught by Christianity.[112] The Jesus Seminar[113] portrays Jesus as an itinerant preacher (Matthew 4:23), who taught peace (Matthew 5:9) and love (Matthew 5:44), rights for women (Luke 10:42) and respect for children (Matthew 19:14), and who spoke out against the hypocrisy of religious leaders (Luke 13:15) and the rich (Matthew 19:24). Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers that many consider to have been a deist, created a "Jefferson Bible" for the Indians entitled "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" that included only Jesus' ethical teachings.
After reading the first sentence, I expected the views of "non-religous people", perhaps atheists, agnostics or politcal leaders. Instead, the views of two quite religious persons and one very religious institution are described.
-- William Warner 06:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Since User:Vexorg insists on having a section in the article dedicated to this Zergeist movie, and an external link by religioustolerance.org, I feel discussion on the talk page is in order, since I do feel this section, its rationale for existance, and the external link are quite, well, lousy. First of all, Zeitgeist the Movie is a conspiracy theory film. It is a mixture of conspiracy theories dealing with the Federal reserve, the banking system, 9/11, and Christianity all wrapped into one, and was released only on google video as far as the article claims. There does not appear to be any especially authoritative or notable source responsible for its production, and in fact, looking at its talk page, there is even a notification there already about how without any apparent reviews on the movie, that it may not even be notable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia at all. Currently, Vexorg's section appears compleatly based on the movie, in fact, it could be construed as advertising.
Nextly, the religioustolerance.org link appears rather low quality. Only a very few of the supposed traits of Horus appear to be inline cited, and there's even a bit at the bottom about how some of Horus's supposed attributes that religioustolerance advocates the existance of have no real evidence to support their existance, according to several Egyptologists. I therefore conclude that the link probably fails WP:EL, specifically, under the "links to be avoided" section number 2, for most likely being misleading and/or unreferenced, and may fail number one, since the notability of this Horus thing does not appear like it would properly belong in the article at all, if this was going for FA status.
In conclusion, I see no valid reason for the inclusion of User:Vexorgs section, nor the religioustolerance.org link. Vexorg's usage of a warning to other editors is also highly contrarian to general Wikipedia philosophy, and his section certainly wouldn't qualify under the same kind of extenuating circumstances we have for the article's lead. Currently, I see no valid reason why I should not attempt to remove the section again. Homestarmy 22:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Why is there even a Wikipedia article on this "film"? Are there any external reliable sources? It looks like this is just a big astroturfing effort. Wikipedia is not the place to promote your Google movie. Also, at the very end of the Religious Tolerance piece, it says that they actually talked to some Egyptian history scholars and the scholars told them that their claims about Horus were incorrect. Wikipedia doesn't source articles with disproven research. I know nothing whatsoever about what the ancient Egyptians believed about Horus, but if the article being used to source the comparison itself says that its own claims aren't true, why exactly are we including it? Lastly, people seeking to attack Christianity have made tons of comparisons with ancient mythology and literature. Google and you can find comparisons made with the Odyssey, with Greek mythology, Hinduism, Buddhism, or anything else under the sun. The inclusion of this one comparison is only for the self-serving purpose of giving this google movie some free advertising in a high-visibility article that is one of the top g-hits for "Jesus". It absolutely should not be included here. Find somewhere else to advertise. -- BigΔT 00:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
There Osiris connection is mentioned and linked to in #Possible_external_influence. The discussion would fit better on the page linked to, though I'd begin with Joseph Campbell and E. Wallace Budge as sources.--
bleeding_heart 01:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
"Ascension" and "Temptation" in a couple of the headings are capitalised -- is this deliberate? Chensiyuan 01:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Being that there are well over a billion Catholics and twice as many Christians (2.1 billion), I hardy believe that the opinion of a few scholars is worthy of this much attention. Seriously. Religion aside, any reasonable person would agree that this kind of ‘trivia’ does not belong as the fourth sentence of the description of Jesus (literally, take a look, it’s the fourth sentence!). This is just plain common sense. At most, this information is trivia (despite the several articles that have been developed on the topic). Just to put things in a different perspective consider this example about Mengele:
How ridiculous does that sound! Wikipedia is becoming a credible source of information, however, people would certainly have second thoughts if they were to see such trivia in the introductions. Introductions are meant to be purely descriptive and not introduce opinions, trivia or consipiracy theories...those (if they must be included) belong later in the article. Christian or not, Administrator or not…I believe that REASON should be your guide concerning this issue. This is certainly a very important article on Wikipedia. Sure, I guess you could include this information (that is, if it’s not just an ulterior agenda imposed by someone a while ago), at most, somewhere in the body. In addition, even if someone is an atheist or non-Christian, that doesn’t mean they can’t exercise discretion about any faith, much less one that is a third of the world’s population. Putting others' faith into question is not exactly a noble way to be spending one's time (consider, for example, the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy). Lastly, after quite an exhaustive search, I really didn’t see any consensus reached in this talk page on this issue. Plus, this notion is already mentioned in the article more than once. I believe that this is a VERY valid edit on my behalf and I didn’t even remove the citation (just moved it down to one of the other mentions of this theory). I hope that reason will win out and I hope that the people that contribute here are all rational and understand this concern. Sincerely, aNubiSIII ( T / C) 09:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
While I have long fought for including the views of critical scholars (meaning, those whose interpretations of Biblical texts are not influenced by theological beliefs) and agree that we must acknowledge that many people question the existence of Jesus, I have long had problems with the last phrase referring to the mythological Jesus for two reasons. First, many of the proponents for this view are not established scholars of the Bible or 1st century Roman Palestine (i.e. they are diletantes who rely on secondary sources and whose work does not rise to the standards of peer review). Second, the most sophisticated propnents of this approach that I know of do not claim that Jesus did not exist but rather that Christianity, including the Christian Jesus, owe more to contemporary pagan mythologies than to the actual life and teachings of anyone named Jesus in the first Century i.e. this is an argument not about Jesus but about Christianity. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Homestarmy here. The early placement suggests the idea is far more important than it is. The first time I read the sentence, I thought the rest of the article was going to be ridiculous and useless. I think the idea is covered fairly well in the first paragraph of Jesus#Possible_external_influence.-- bleeding_heart 15:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
A number of recent scholars and historians of the period have seriously been considering that Jesus may have been a mythical character and was put into the historical framework as a real person by the early christian church in 110 AD. According to them this suggests that Jesus may never have actually existed. I have been researching this and it is looking increasing likely that this may have been the case. The first four gospels (mark, matthew, luke, john) don't seem to know anything about most of the apparent miracles of Jesus and the story that we would see as familar with Jesus today.
This should really be taken into consideration in the article in the interest of a fair and unbias page.
Watch the movie, the god who wasn't there.
We already have wikipedia articles dedicated to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_as_myth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_comparative_mythology
We should put a insert into the main Jesus article because this is relevant and should be linked. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.77.48.148 ( talk) 02:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
ECKnibbs 14:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, you both missed the mark about the Mengele example. I wasn't supposed to be that difficult. But, evidently, I should have noticed earlier that this discussion, and most people in it, favor one certain point of view. Advancing the position I am supporting is proving futile. I no longer feel welcome in this discussion. It's seems that throughout this discussion, as soon as someone entered supporting the opposing viewpoint about the sentence (that is, the one that I am supporting), some users here converge on that person to kick him/her out. I don't think that this is right. Apparently, that is why it is still locked down as the fourth sentence.
ECKnibbs and Sophia, I don't know if it could be more clear about NPOV on talk pages. It's written in big bold on the top of this page Wikipedia:Talk Page. Personal views/philosophies, on talk pages or in articles, impune the integrity of Wikipedia. That is simply the point that I was attempting to make. (Sophia, I'm not even gonna respond to your other comments)
It's funny, no one seems to be questioning the existence of Muhammad or Siddhartha or Abraham or regard them as myth on Wikipedia (especially not in the leads!). Hmmm..., maybe they're too afraid. Yet, Wikipedia has entire articles of the myth and nonexistence of the lead figure in Christianity. OR, maybe the "war on Christianity" is not just a political slogan. However, you'll only fool yourself if you believe that the "scholars" that point to the myth are anything more than a few conspiracy theorists. It's one thing to question the historicity of Jesus and another to question his existence. As a last suggestion then, therefore, I would replace "historical exitence" with " historicity" (after all that is the title of the article) at the very least (dropping the myth part completely). Otherwise, this article should be RED FLAGGED and a Template:NPOV should be added. Perhaps my comments will be followed by critical reponses, but I assure you, I already got the point: I am not welcome. aNubiSIII ( T / C) 17:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
So after we basically all agreed on a wording, and LotR made it go live earlier today, another user has come along and changed it to Disputes about the existence of Jesus and reliability of ancient texts relating to him are discussed later in this article and in several separate articles including Jesus and history. completely ignore our previous work. What do other users think of this version? I think referencing wikipedia articles in this manner is just poor writing. There may be some underlying ideas in that proposal that could help to improve the wording of the Andrew/LotR version, adn I'm sure we can talk them out, but I think it's premature to have an undiscussed version go live. And what up with blanking the big ref?- Andrew c [talk] 05:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I find it very weasely to say "Very few scholars believe that all historical accounts concerning Jesus are either completely accurate or completely inaccurate concerning Jesus' life." First, it is not a true statement. Throughout >2000 of history of Christianity, many (not very few) scholarly Christian theologians have agreed with the accuracy of the biblical accounts concerning Jesus. Therefore, "very few" is an inept descriptive. At the other end of the spectrum are more liberal theologians who have serious doubts about a lot of things. I like the statement: Disputes about the existence of Jesus and reliability of ancient texts relating to him are discussed later in this article and in several separate articles including Jesus and history. (1) It clearly and unapologetically acknowledges there are disputes; (2) It avoids the quantitative like "very few" which is virtually meaningless; (3) It tells the reader upfront that this article does deal with some of those disputes, so keep on reading; (4) It also tells the reader that this is not a thoroughly comprehensive article about Jesus in all respects. If it were, there wouldn't be so many others on Wiki with only subtle differences in titles. It lists only one other Wiki article, Jesus and history, which does contain references, seealso's, etc., to many other articles dealing with "Disputes about the existence of Jesus and reliability of ancient texts." It's about as Neutral Point of View as one can get. Thanks for your consideration. Afaprof01 18:00, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
OK. We've had various issues with the new proposal, leading me to believe it was premature to add it to the lead. The most recent criticism is that RossNixon claims that the belief that the entire NT account of Jesus' life is entirely historical is actually a common belief. Is there any support for that statement. Could we start getting into our sources (I know we mentioned it above, but it's probably best to actually see what the sources say, where the scholars stand before adding things to the article).- Andrew c [talk] 05:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a general comment (not in response to Andrew's last posting): To claim a historical document to be reliable is not to say it is "infallible" or "120% accurate." I keep hearing rumblings about the Gospels being "inconsistent" (on some factual details), and therefore are somehow "ahistorical." This is a non sequitur. If they were identical then it seems that they might have originated from a single source (which is not the case). The fact is, the NT canon is remarkably consistent in its portrayal of Jesus, but this is not to say that they are 100% accurate in all details.
In any event, on Friday I went ahead and made the change because there was agreement among the editors discussing this issue, followed by silence. When issues are discussed on a Talk page at length, and silence ensues, I take that to mean it is time to implement the proposed change. I would advocate restoring the sentence that was agreed on, or one of the similar variants, then hammer things out more in Talk if necessary. The original contention was not to give undue weight to an extreme minority viewpoint (the so-called "Mythological Jesus" denigration) in the lead. The objection to removing the sentence completely was that, in the spirit of maintaining NPOV, an indication of the range of scholarly opinions was given in the lead. There are no objections to this. The sentence that Andrew proposed achieved a very nice compromise that achieves the goal quite nicely. So I advocate restoring it (or one of the similar variants), then iterating from there. LotR 13:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I took a day off yesterday to heal my eyes from staring at the computer too long, so I didn't reply earlier. It's not that I don't like the idea of a new sentence that doesn't have the Jesus-myth disproportionatly mentioned in violation of lead guidelines, its just that i'm not sure anymore that the sentence suggested is correct. Since I assume we're going on the principle that the sentence there now will be replaced by one sentence, something vauge might be necessary in order to relate to the several sections given to academic opinions without only mentioning the Gospels and without trying to write in extremes of opinion that don't exist. What about something like "Scholars in fields of study relating to sources on Jesus' life have a wide array of opinions concerning the accuracy and reliability of historical documents and records pertaining to his life." Homestarmy 02:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I reverted the edits to Possible_external_influence which added Zoroaster and changed all the instances of "pagan" to "gentile." The paragraph as it was was exceptionally clear, cohesive and persuasive, in that it limited its argument to external sources that christians themselve claim, the apostle Paul, popes JPII and Benedict, and Cornell West, to name a notable few. I suggest a sentence at the end of the section would achieve more while destroying less.-- bleeding_heart 23:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick query: shouldn't typing in "Jesus" redirect to the disambiguation page? Its quite a common name in some countries, so just assuming that it refers to Jesus of Nazareth is a bit strange. I would also back changing the name of the article to Jesus of Nazareth, rather than just Jesus, for the same reason. Hagger 12:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Ghandi has a criticism and controversy page, so why not Jesus Christ? Add it in now, thank you. Zephead999 07:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Tiger, I think Jesus Christ is pretty cool. But the fact that he did ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong is disturbing. Again if Ghandi has a criticism and controversy section then don't you think Jesus Christ should as well? Again, I'm too lazy to add this in but you guys should Zephead999 07:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The article already specifies the major criticisms of Jesus: according to Christians, the belief that Jewish leaders criticized him as a blasphemer, and according to historians, that Roman officials criticized him for sedition. As far as the historical sources concerning Jesus, that is pretty much all we have. It is no surprise that there are more criticisms of Gandhi because he lived recently and the historical record of his life is much larger than that of Jesus. Many historians would also claim that Gandhi was a much more well-known and controversial figure during his life than Jesus. In my experience, most people who say they have criticisms of Jesus really have criticisms of the Christian account of Jesus - in short, what they are really critical of is Christianity, or some form of Christianity they are familiar with, and not Jesus, whom they never personally knew. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
yeah Sopiha I agree with you 100%. That's what I'm saying, we should make a seperate thing talking about the negative things Jesus has done, or what people have THOUGHT he has done if Ghandi/Gandhi, however you spell it does. Zephead999 21:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
"You actually don't agree with Sophia at all. She was saying we shouldn't have a separate section. I agree with her. Articles become tiresome both to edit and read when they're made to look like debating society transcripts. "
Actually I do agree with Sophia. There should be no seperate articles on that kind of garbage, that's why if there is one on Ghandi there should be one on Jesus Christ.
By the way I have nothing against Christianity, and i don't even know whot he hell Ghandi is. I'm a white teen from Oregon and I am highly uneducated on this type of stuff. I'd assume Ghandi for the most part would be a cool guy and if he did anything bad, it would be presumably small so it should not have it's own section, do you know what I mean? Same thing with Jesus Christ, now untill Ghandi's critcism gets removed, or one gets added on Jesus Chrsit i'll make this article a leaving HELL! Zephead999 00:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
What's with the use of both systems of dating?
I'm a little concerned about the addition of "critical secular", and I've always felt a little uneasy with the sentence Christian scholars generally believe the gospel accounts to be historically accurate; critical secular scholars, on the other hand, debate the extent of their historicity. Why do we need two modifiers, critical and secular? Are there secular scholars who unquestionably accept the gospel accounts? are there critical scholars who unquestionably accept the gospel accounts? and only when we combine the critical and the secular do we get the scholars who start to question the accounts? and also, while we are on this topic, there are many scholars who are christian who question the bible account, from Raymond E. Brown and John P. Meier, to Marcus Borg and even Robert M. Price. I think its rare to have Christian scholars who believe the accounts to be historically accurate (i.e. biblical literalism). This may be going out on a limb, but maybe we could phrase it " Christian apologists generally believe the gospel accounts to be historically accurate, while critical scholars debate the extent of their historicity." My only concern is connotations associated with the technical terms, hence the wikilinks.- Andrew c [talk] 14:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
[note, message moved up to: Talk:Jesus#New proposal from Afaprof01] - Andrew c [talk] 04:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
removed copy and paste job of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08377a.htm by 210.213.72.155 ( talk · contribs) - Andrew c [talk] 04:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the article be titled Jesus Christ? -- The Serene Silver Star 17:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Then Nazereth will have to do. Jesus just doesn't feel cmplete. -- Vitus Werdegast 04:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
it's regarded as a "miracle" to his followers. but it's also a "folklore" to smart, rationale people. 71.182.92.118 03:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
it's important to recognize that from a completely scientific viewpoint we can never say anything is "impossible". Rather, we may only say having observed such and such a circumstance for so many times we may tentatively conclude it is highly unlikely such an event may occur. Science is concerned only with observable facts and what has been observed. 70.156.11.235 19:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC) also, i must caution that liberalism (not in the political sense) remains liberal so long as it forgos fundamental declarations itself. for example, democracy is a liberal ideal but it is not liberal to say something like "democracy is best always right." or science has all the answers. 70.156.11.235 19:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Could someone clean up the notes at the bottom of the Jesus Page as it is all messed up
I think it is highly misleading to say "while other scholars hold the historical and theological Jesus to be one and the same" and then cite a 2007 book by the Pope to support this statement. The Pope's view, being the head of the largest Christian denomination, clearly belongs in the "Religious perspectives/Christian views" section. While I know that there is a grey area between when scholarship stop and religion starts, most scholars acknowledge that historical methodology cannot plausibly reconstruct the supernatural events in the Gospels. That is not to say that they didn't happen, only that a scholarly, objective methodology can only go so far in those matters. When the Pope says the historical Jesus and his theological Jesus is one in the same, is he making a theological statement of faith? or is he stating an objective conclusion from scholarly methodology? - Andrew c [talk] 00:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
What PC drivel! Wikipedia isn't a place for political grandstanding. The dates should be BC and AD only! -- Nordic Crusader 07:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
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Please note, Wikipedia is not a soap box Slrubenstein | Talk 10:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
BCE and CE stand for Before the Common Era and Common Era. They mean the same as BC and AD but are neutral in regards to religion. I think that is in keeping with the NPOV policy. Jstanierm 12:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
The claim that CE/BCE is an academic convention that has been in place for only a couple of years is either a lie, or something soneone just made up (i.e. BS) - the pracice originated well over a hundred years ago. In any event, which part of "Wikipedia is not a soap box" do you (anonymous user, not PB or John) not understand? Slrubenstein | Talk 13:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
This text was recently added to the Buddhist views section:
“ | In the book 'The Lost Years of Jesus' the author, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, claims that scrolls were found by Nicolas Notovitch in Monasteries in Tibet which spoke of the teachings of a Saint Isa, note that Isa is also the name of Jesus in Islam. The author is speculating that Jesus has traveled extensively through India and other countries in the years that are not covered in the Bible. | ” |
I don't find that Notovitch was a Buddhist, nor that his views are representative of Buddhist views. It seems that his interpretation of a text he found in Tibet, and Prophet's interpretation are that Jesus traveled in India, etc. Is this material appropriate for the section it is in? Or is it appropriate for inclusion in the article? — ERcheck ( talk) 17:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Response: Jesus or in this case Saint Isa was found to be studying AND teaching at Buddhist monasteries according to the book. So if not in Buddhism than where? Maybe under controversy, travels, historicity?
I really don't think that one person's views, especially not one person's views represented in only one of their books, is really important enough for any of these other views sections. There's just no case for amazingly special notability that I see. Homestarmy 01:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
in the muslim view of jesus... u should add that they belive that the injl was messed with which made the bible