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Currently the article says 'Muslims believe that Jesus' crucifixion was a divine illusion' when Muslims have numerous views concerning it. Other common interpretations include the Swoon hypothesis (like in Ahmed Deedat's 'crucifixion or crucifiction?'); that the crucifixion is nothing more than an orally spread myth (such as Imam Al-Alusi or Muhammad Asad); that the Romans crucified Judas by mistake as well as that the crucifixion was a 'divine illusion'. It's not very encyclopedic for one interpretation to be given credence over others when this is far from an agreed point. It would be better for the article to just say Muslims don't believe Jesus was crucified and leave it at that. Kadaveri 19:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that the notes section of this article is inconsistent in two ways: It has extremely long notes for some and short notes for others; and secondly, it has long notes at all: most of the other articles on Wikipedia have neat and short notes for each note, in a uniform fashion.
I propose a cleanup in the notes section to conform to de facto standard. Scifiintel 01:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I thought this God Who Wasn't There movie link was going to be a relatively textbook case of removing links which were clearly advertisements, but now we're linking directly to the download off of a torrent site (of file extension that I don't even know about) which is called "thepiratebay.com?" I don't think it counts if you switch from advertisement to a site which, if the title isn't trying to be misleading, seems to be hosting pirated DVD's for download via torrent. How many readers even have the software to download and run things off of a torrent site anyway? If the External Links policy discourages videos from YouTube or Google Video and the like, I really don't see how torrent downloads from sites of questionable legality are a step up in acceptability. Homestarmy 01:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I suggest to add the following in Judaism's view: Judaism has no special or particular view of Jesus, and very few texts in Judaism directly refer to or take note of Jesus. One of the most important Jewish principles of faith is the belief in one God and one God only with no partnership of any kind, [1] and belief in Jesus as deity, son of God, or Christ, is incompatible with Judaism.
copied from archives:
LC says, "the position of the divine judge. . . doesn't seem to [be] well represented." LC and I couldn't disagree more about the Truth, but we agree that this page's depiction of Jesus is missing something. Here's my suggestion for what to add, hitting the highest high points while being mercifully brief and emphasizing niceness (because everyone wants to think Jesus was nice). "Jesus taught that he would return to judge people by their deeds, especially by how they treated the vulnerable. He warned the wicked that he would damn them to hell." This would, of course, be backed up with Bible quotes. I'm sure those of you familiar with the NT can already think of quotes that back up these two sentences. If this page had a fair depiction of gospel Jesus, it would provide more of the "woe" and "Gehenna" material, to balance the extensive "niceness" and "forgiveness" material, but I'm resigned to having a slanted view of Jesus in this section. That said, there ought to be at least a passing reference to Jesus as the guy that's going damn me to eternal torture. Jonathan Tweet 16:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
If this page had a fair depiction of gospel Jesus, it would provide more of the "woe" and "Gehenna" material...'
Homestarmy, thanks for the respectful questions. I surmise that you agree with me that this information should cleave to scripture. Without the wikilink, the text doesn't explain the "vulnerable" part. I'd link this to a very explicit account of Jesus judging the people at the end of the world, The Sheep and the Goats. As for the "wicked," I honestly don't know what to call the class of people that Jesus damns. They're not "sinners" because we're all sinners. They're not "unworthy" of heaven because none of us are worthy. Matthew 25 says that those who turn their backs on the vulnerable are damned to hell, but that's rather specific, and the verse has already been mentioned. The following suggestion avoids the issue.
Jesus taught that he would return at the end of time to judge people by their deeds, especially by how they treated the vulnerable. He promised to welcome some into eternal life and to damn others to hell.
Here you enter a very touchy area, which is why I believe the subject of 'damnation' has been left out of the section up-to-now. Whether or not Jesus actually damns someone is quite questionable to many Christians, as most Christian denominations see the default status--due to sin, both committed and original--as eternal separation from God, beginning with Adam and continuing up to the present day. Thus, salvation is presented as a gift, which can either be accepted or rejected. The choice lies with the person; it is he who damns himself. Only by accepting the 'gift' does one's status change--from eternal separation from God, to one of eternal life. Secondly, at first glance it can seem that there are many contradictions (or nuances) in the gospel accounts of salvation, so it is best not to cherry-pick one example and say, "This is what Jesus preached." For example, to say people will be judged by their deeds--sure it's in there, but so is John 3:16 which mentions only faith. — Aiden 09:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it help if we tried to stick as closely to the Gospel account as possible? I realize that much (interesting) theological ink has been spilled over this issue. We ought not go into the different views different Christians have had of Jesus' view of judgement (and heaven/hell). Nor should we try to present a consensus or lowest-common-denominaotr Christian view. I think the only question is: do the Gospels provide a uniform and crystal clear account of Jesus' view, or do the Gospels present seemingly distinct views that later became objects of interpretation? If the latter, all we need to do is report that the Gospels provide several views and list them. It is for an article on Christianity to go into how Christians have interpreted these views. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I was just making a general point - if you and everyone else are satisfied, it is fine by me. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that the section of Jesus states that "For others, Christianity has often been linked to [the] Atlantic slave trade." While that is the truth it is not the whole truth. It is good that the section balances this by asserting the good things as well but the words on the Atlantic Slave trade is slightly misleading.
It is true that Christians were involved but it was not the Christians as if to suggest that there was a conspiracy. In fact, the British ended their participation in the slave trade because of Christian convictions. (A good source of apologetics on this subject can be found here. [2] [3] I admit, Answers in Genesis can be looked on with some suspicion, but in this regard, they are mostly accurate. After all, we must not let pre-existing bias color our judgements because critical thinking affirms that "even a broken clock right twice a day.") For example, the film Amazing Grace retells the story of how devoted abolitionist William Wilberforce was moved by his Christian convictions to abolish the slave trade in his native Britain.
I suggest that the phrase "For others, Christianity has often been linked to [the] Atlantic slave trade" be modified to "For some, Christianity has often been linked to the Atlantic slave trade yet for others it was Christians, who due to their Christian faith, ended the Atlantic slave trade." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Juangarcia1982 ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC).
Slavery was abolished during the Medieval West. It returned after the Renaissance and Enlightnment, only to be abolished again. A proper discussion on the matter (and I'm not sure this article is the place) would have to present a more complete historical picture than just colonialism. Lostcaesar 00:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone heard of "The White Man's Burden"? Probably doesn't belong in this article,but the idea that Christian philosophy is superlative was often used as a justification for cultural imperialism and slavery. For an example, although a work of fiction, read Robinson Crusoe.
I'm apparently coming in late. Why is there a POV tag on this page? I mean, it's way POV, but it's been way POV since forever, and it hasn't always had the tag. Jonathan Tweet 00:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Now that we're basically having two edit wars at once in between the sheep thing, might as well start this topic too, over the Rejection of Judaism category. What does "Rejection of Judaism" even mean? Judaism isn't exactly the World's Most Monolithic Religion (tm), I barely even understand it myself because its so complicated with the social aspect being tied up with it, and where in the article is it discussed that Jesus explicitly rejected Judaism? This seems very confusing. It's like adding a Homosexuality category to a famous figure without the article actually discussing Homosexuality at all, and quite frankly, the category in question here looks downright unjustified. Now, on to the policy considerations, WP:CAT is (or was the last time I read it) quite clear that controversial category listings shouldn't be used if there's a disagreement over it. Let's get real folks, is somebody really going to read this entire article and really care at all that in the list of blue words at the bottom there is "Person who Rejected Judaism" or whatever? Homestarmy 13:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
So, now can we discuss the changes and build consensus before starting another edit war? Please list the POV issues with the article. Please make a proposal regarding an athiest view section. Thanks.- Andrew c 21:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I think Lisboa is banned for sockpuppetry. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:39, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Some redlinked name appears to of somehow deleted the history of Jesus, redirected the article to the new compleatly undiscussed title which will most likely skew search engine results all across the board and mess up links to this article, and done the same deletion to the talk page. I can move the content back to the original title, but the history will be lost in the redirect, can anyone somehow revert this name change? Homestarmy 18:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey this article is amasing, and i really can't find anythign wrong with it, and it's got one heck of a lot of inline citations. so with all that i think that we should nominate it for FA status. Any Thoughts????
peace out- Three ways round 21:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
i couldn't find those citation needed tags, so i'm gonna nominate. I get what your saying about the debate and everything, but i don't think the debate will ever settle down. so it's better to push forward, plus i don't think it should be that much of a problem.
peace - Three ways round 22:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for being so rushed. I just found this article and was amased at how good it was. so i kinda got really really over-excited. Sorry bout that, but hopefully it will all turn out good.
peace- Three ways round 15:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and can anyone access this site which is used in a reference: [6]. The page kind of loads on my screen, but no text appears.... Homestarmy 02:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
It looks like the reason for the gap is because the Jesus series template is inside that top box which contains the main picture, in a preview, when its not in the box, the article doesn't get deformed in the same way, but then the box makes a large gap at the top. Why is the image even in that wikisyntax box anyway, its just a bunch of text under the image.... Homestarmy 22:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
An issue with this section and its mini-sections has come up on the FA nom. Someone seems to want to know more about how the Apocrypha, which are mentioned extensively in this section, were excluded from the basic canon of today, and some more expanded content discussing it. However, as I read the corresponding articles on some of these books, i'm starting to doubt the relevance of a pretty big chunk of this section. Many of the articles on the books seem like they don't have much important information at all on Jesus' life, Thomas is just a gospel about what Jesus' presumably said about various things, several of the books don't even seem to mention Jesus much at all, and considering how much of the sections seem to deal with the apocrypha themselves in relation to the Bible, i'm starting to wonder just how relevant some of these sentences are in relation to the article subject. For instance, the paragraph "Books that were not included are known as the New Testament apocrypha. These include the Gospel of Thomas, a collection of logia—phrases and sayings attributed to Jesus without a narrative framework, only rediscovered in the 20th century. Other important apocryphal works that had a heavy influence in forming traditional Christian beliefs include the Apocalypse of Peter, Protevangelium of James, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, and Acts of Peter. A number of Christian traditions (such as Veronica's veil and the Assumption of Mary) are found not in the canonical gospels but in these and other apocryphal works." Doesn't seem to have anything to do with Jesus at all, but rather, the Bible, Christianity, and background on Christian theology, and sentences like "It took several centuries before the list of what was and was not part of the Bible became finally fixed, and for much of the early period the Book of Revelation was not included while works like The Shepherd of Hermas were." seem to not belong either, Revelations doesn't really add anything to Jesus' life either except one more sentence, and The Shepard of Hermas appears to have absolutly nothing to do with Jesus at all from its article. Does much of this stuff belong? I don't want to give an answer on the FA nom about this unless I know what really is all going on. Homestarmy 20:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Having a section on Jesus' life as told by non-canonical sources may be a good addition, however, you are clearly overstating the significance of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. It is by far the majority view of critical scholars that the Infancy Gospel is significantly later than the Gospels, and thereby a lot less historically significant when analyzing the historical Jesus. So to say that it holds equal weight is simply giving undue weight to a minority view (BTW, can you name a few scholars that hold that view). - Andrew c 22:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Oddly, the line "Most modern Biblical scholars hold that the works describing Jesus were initially communicated by oral tradition, and were not committed to writing until several decades after Jesus' crucifixion." doesn't actually seem to have an equivalent anywhere in Historicity of Jesus, which seems strange to me, because it sounds kind of obvious. Would this stuff more properly be in Historical Jesus? It might make more sense for the whole section on sources to be summarizing Historical Jesus instead of Historicity of Jesus, or even both articles, since Historical Jesus probably has more material about sources too. Homestarmy 02:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
If there is a section on questions on reliability of sources, shouldn't there a a section on arguments on reliability of sources? There are more, much more scholars who support the latter view, isn't it? Kleinbell 05:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
"Encyclopedia of Islam, Jesus article" Is all that it reads, and its used in three places, what is this supposed to mean? Was there once some main reference at the bottom, because I don't see it anywhere. Homestarmy 21:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
One hurdle we have hit with the FA nom is the question of reference standardization. The use of citation templates must be subject to the approval of editors here. Since we are only using 4 citation templates, it seems best to just convert them to a non-template based citation. If anyone has any comments regarding citations standardization, or diagrees with removing the 4 template uses, please bring up concerns here. Thanks.- Andrew c 14:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone answer a question about what it is called during the life of Christ? We have B.C which stands for before Christ and A.D. which stands for After Death. Anyone one knows how this came about?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.165.76.78 ( talk • contribs) 23:05, 19 April 2007.
No matter what you put into this article please remember to respect Christians and their beliefs. A friend of mine who is Christian recently opened the 'Jesus' page and found slightly disrespectful content.But man! I'm a Christian and didn't see anything wrong with it.-- 4H 08:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Can someone translate the following for me please.
""the Jews intended to destroy the person of Jesus completely; in fact, they crucified only his nasut, his lahut remained alive"
Thanks JHJPDJKDKHI! 07:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Jesus had long hair and a beard,wore sandles, was non violent, hung out with the dregs of society and "railed" against the man.In addition, he was a drifter agaist materialism and fed the poor.The other day i was with a freind and we saw a hippy,the simularities of this hippy and the most common pictures of Jesus were uncanny.-- Crabsoup 09:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Based on his parents and the country his parents lived in, would Jesus have been born white like he is in paintings, or more like arab or summat? I know it must have been discussed here before, but the page doesn't mention his ethnicity and I am not looking through 100 pages of talk JayKeaton 08:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
He's only depicted as Caucasian in paintings because the artists were Caucasian. Jesus was born in the Middle East; it's likely he had black hair, and probably slightly darker skin than most Europeans, but there is a wide range of skin tones among inhabitants of that area. He almost certainly wasn't "black" in the sense that we usually think of in America (very dark brown skin, tightly curled hair), although he's occasionally been portrayed that way for artistic purposes. -- MatthewDBA 11:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Can people who know much of the history of the canonization of the Gospels comment here? Thanks Slrubenstein | Talk 18:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello You Bold Men & Women who have done a lot of good work on Wikipedia's "JESUS."
Under headings of "Historicity" and subsequently, "Reconstructing a historical Jesus" I have several questions. (Please give me a hand on my editing where ever I need it.)
The former heading states,
Scholars have used the historical method to develop probable reconstructions of Jesus' life. This is different than the New Testament view on Jesus' life in that it is not derived solely from the text of the Christian Bible. A small minority of scholars dispute Jesus' existence. Block quote
It doesn't appear very well to me that the Historical Method http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method has been used at all. How could anyone use the Historical Method without the New Testament (NT)? There is very, very little outside the NT which proves Jesus in history. Why aren't the NT books considered primary sources for the historicity of Jesus? In what way do the NT books not meet and exceed the Historical Method?
I just wonder if the disregard isn't from thinking that using the NT would be a "circular argument." That is, many think it wrong to refer to biblical passages in support of biblical claims. But that objection is unfounded for practical, legal and logical reasons. Practically speaking, there is no better place to begin than with what is self-claimed, and there is no other place to begin. Legally, anyone can testify in his own behalf in a court of law. Fairness dictates that the NT should be a witness in its own behalf. Finally, the logical point of departure allows us to study its claims rather than the claims simply supporting themselves. (Nix, William E.: A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded. Chicago : Moody Press, 1996, c1986, p. 49).
In other words, how can any Historical Method be employed at all without a NT view? It's substantively the only history we've got.
For these reasons I also wonder why the term "probable" is used in reference to reconstructing Jesus's life. I don't think one would say that Caesar's Gallic Wars has been used to develop probable reconstructions of Caesar's life. In fact, why doesn't such a doubtful word violate Aristotle's dictum:
The benefit of the doubt is to be given to the document itself, not arrogated by the critic to himself.
Under the latter heading I have these following questions:
Secular historians generally describe Jesus as an itinerant preacher and leader of a religious movement within Judaism.[28] According to historical reconstruction, Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, taught in parables and aphorisms, challenged expectations of holiness and social hierarchy, and was crucified by the Romans. Historians are divided on whether Jesus led a career of healing and exorcism, whether he preached the imminent end of the world, and whether he intended to be crucified.
Most scholars agree the Gospel of Mark was written shortly before or after the destruction of the Jewish Temple by the Romans under Titus in the year 70, and the other gospels written between 70-100.[29] The historical outlook on Jesus relies on criticism of the Bible, especially the gospels.
Many scholars have sought to reconstruct Jesus' life in terms of contemporaneous political, cultural, and religious currents in Israel, including differences between Galilee and Judea, and between different sects such the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and Zealots.[30][31] and in terms of conflicts among Jews in the context of Roman occupation.
"Secular historians" have exactly what persuasive historical data on Jesus outside the NT? How is the NT supposed to be "reconstructed" historically? Isn't this really revisionism rather than historical methodology? And isn't all of that a violation of Aristotle's dictum? How is an itinerant preacher, leader of a small movement within Judaism, a teacher in parables and user of aphorisms a characterization of this historical man? Doesn't the historical record actually record that Jesus claimed to be God!? Whether we agree with that or not shouldn't shape a revision of what we think the history should have been. We should only report the historical facts and let the reader judge the matter himself, shouldn't we? I think one has to admit those characterizations have a historical source, why then are they are not given their historical place? Finally, is there some blemish on the NT books' history I'm unaware of? I know not of even one historical error mentioned in the NT. In fact, all the sources I know say in all of history there is no greater attestation, not even from the collective works of antiquity, than we have for the NT.
I have never actually taken a count the number of scholars, but it's an error to think very many scholars believe the gospel of Mark was written late. Late dates aid only those who refuse to accept the historical accounts of miracles, and thus those who feel their jobs are to demythologize the NT books. In fact, there is substantial evidence which says all the NT books were finished prior to CE/AD 70. Yes, even the works of apostle John. Yes, even the book of Revelation which has generally been assigned CE/AD 96.
That's a total fabrication. When I discovered the entry for "JESUS" I was astonished as to how woefully lacking the historicity is. There is a lot of work to do, isn't there? Sky 16:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)Sky
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 75 | ← | Archive 80 | Archive 81 | Archive 82 | Archive 83 | Archive 84 | Archive 85 |
Currently the article says 'Muslims believe that Jesus' crucifixion was a divine illusion' when Muslims have numerous views concerning it. Other common interpretations include the Swoon hypothesis (like in Ahmed Deedat's 'crucifixion or crucifiction?'); that the crucifixion is nothing more than an orally spread myth (such as Imam Al-Alusi or Muhammad Asad); that the Romans crucified Judas by mistake as well as that the crucifixion was a 'divine illusion'. It's not very encyclopedic for one interpretation to be given credence over others when this is far from an agreed point. It would be better for the article to just say Muslims don't believe Jesus was crucified and leave it at that. Kadaveri 19:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that the notes section of this article is inconsistent in two ways: It has extremely long notes for some and short notes for others; and secondly, it has long notes at all: most of the other articles on Wikipedia have neat and short notes for each note, in a uniform fashion.
I propose a cleanup in the notes section to conform to de facto standard. Scifiintel 01:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I thought this God Who Wasn't There movie link was going to be a relatively textbook case of removing links which were clearly advertisements, but now we're linking directly to the download off of a torrent site (of file extension that I don't even know about) which is called "thepiratebay.com?" I don't think it counts if you switch from advertisement to a site which, if the title isn't trying to be misleading, seems to be hosting pirated DVD's for download via torrent. How many readers even have the software to download and run things off of a torrent site anyway? If the External Links policy discourages videos from YouTube or Google Video and the like, I really don't see how torrent downloads from sites of questionable legality are a step up in acceptability. Homestarmy 01:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I suggest to add the following in Judaism's view: Judaism has no special or particular view of Jesus, and very few texts in Judaism directly refer to or take note of Jesus. One of the most important Jewish principles of faith is the belief in one God and one God only with no partnership of any kind, [1] and belief in Jesus as deity, son of God, or Christ, is incompatible with Judaism.
copied from archives:
LC says, "the position of the divine judge. . . doesn't seem to [be] well represented." LC and I couldn't disagree more about the Truth, but we agree that this page's depiction of Jesus is missing something. Here's my suggestion for what to add, hitting the highest high points while being mercifully brief and emphasizing niceness (because everyone wants to think Jesus was nice). "Jesus taught that he would return to judge people by their deeds, especially by how they treated the vulnerable. He warned the wicked that he would damn them to hell." This would, of course, be backed up with Bible quotes. I'm sure those of you familiar with the NT can already think of quotes that back up these two sentences. If this page had a fair depiction of gospel Jesus, it would provide more of the "woe" and "Gehenna" material, to balance the extensive "niceness" and "forgiveness" material, but I'm resigned to having a slanted view of Jesus in this section. That said, there ought to be at least a passing reference to Jesus as the guy that's going damn me to eternal torture. Jonathan Tweet 16:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
If this page had a fair depiction of gospel Jesus, it would provide more of the "woe" and "Gehenna" material...'
Homestarmy, thanks for the respectful questions. I surmise that you agree with me that this information should cleave to scripture. Without the wikilink, the text doesn't explain the "vulnerable" part. I'd link this to a very explicit account of Jesus judging the people at the end of the world, The Sheep and the Goats. As for the "wicked," I honestly don't know what to call the class of people that Jesus damns. They're not "sinners" because we're all sinners. They're not "unworthy" of heaven because none of us are worthy. Matthew 25 says that those who turn their backs on the vulnerable are damned to hell, but that's rather specific, and the verse has already been mentioned. The following suggestion avoids the issue.
Jesus taught that he would return at the end of time to judge people by their deeds, especially by how they treated the vulnerable. He promised to welcome some into eternal life and to damn others to hell.
Here you enter a very touchy area, which is why I believe the subject of 'damnation' has been left out of the section up-to-now. Whether or not Jesus actually damns someone is quite questionable to many Christians, as most Christian denominations see the default status--due to sin, both committed and original--as eternal separation from God, beginning with Adam and continuing up to the present day. Thus, salvation is presented as a gift, which can either be accepted or rejected. The choice lies with the person; it is he who damns himself. Only by accepting the 'gift' does one's status change--from eternal separation from God, to one of eternal life. Secondly, at first glance it can seem that there are many contradictions (or nuances) in the gospel accounts of salvation, so it is best not to cherry-pick one example and say, "This is what Jesus preached." For example, to say people will be judged by their deeds--sure it's in there, but so is John 3:16 which mentions only faith. — Aiden 09:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it help if we tried to stick as closely to the Gospel account as possible? I realize that much (interesting) theological ink has been spilled over this issue. We ought not go into the different views different Christians have had of Jesus' view of judgement (and heaven/hell). Nor should we try to present a consensus or lowest-common-denominaotr Christian view. I think the only question is: do the Gospels provide a uniform and crystal clear account of Jesus' view, or do the Gospels present seemingly distinct views that later became objects of interpretation? If the latter, all we need to do is report that the Gospels provide several views and list them. It is for an article on Christianity to go into how Christians have interpreted these views. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I was just making a general point - if you and everyone else are satisfied, it is fine by me. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that the section of Jesus states that "For others, Christianity has often been linked to [the] Atlantic slave trade." While that is the truth it is not the whole truth. It is good that the section balances this by asserting the good things as well but the words on the Atlantic Slave trade is slightly misleading.
It is true that Christians were involved but it was not the Christians as if to suggest that there was a conspiracy. In fact, the British ended their participation in the slave trade because of Christian convictions. (A good source of apologetics on this subject can be found here. [2] [3] I admit, Answers in Genesis can be looked on with some suspicion, but in this regard, they are mostly accurate. After all, we must not let pre-existing bias color our judgements because critical thinking affirms that "even a broken clock right twice a day.") For example, the film Amazing Grace retells the story of how devoted abolitionist William Wilberforce was moved by his Christian convictions to abolish the slave trade in his native Britain.
I suggest that the phrase "For others, Christianity has often been linked to [the] Atlantic slave trade" be modified to "For some, Christianity has often been linked to the Atlantic slave trade yet for others it was Christians, who due to their Christian faith, ended the Atlantic slave trade." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Juangarcia1982 ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC).
Slavery was abolished during the Medieval West. It returned after the Renaissance and Enlightnment, only to be abolished again. A proper discussion on the matter (and I'm not sure this article is the place) would have to present a more complete historical picture than just colonialism. Lostcaesar 00:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone heard of "The White Man's Burden"? Probably doesn't belong in this article,but the idea that Christian philosophy is superlative was often used as a justification for cultural imperialism and slavery. For an example, although a work of fiction, read Robinson Crusoe.
I'm apparently coming in late. Why is there a POV tag on this page? I mean, it's way POV, but it's been way POV since forever, and it hasn't always had the tag. Jonathan Tweet 00:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Now that we're basically having two edit wars at once in between the sheep thing, might as well start this topic too, over the Rejection of Judaism category. What does "Rejection of Judaism" even mean? Judaism isn't exactly the World's Most Monolithic Religion (tm), I barely even understand it myself because its so complicated with the social aspect being tied up with it, and where in the article is it discussed that Jesus explicitly rejected Judaism? This seems very confusing. It's like adding a Homosexuality category to a famous figure without the article actually discussing Homosexuality at all, and quite frankly, the category in question here looks downright unjustified. Now, on to the policy considerations, WP:CAT is (or was the last time I read it) quite clear that controversial category listings shouldn't be used if there's a disagreement over it. Let's get real folks, is somebody really going to read this entire article and really care at all that in the list of blue words at the bottom there is "Person who Rejected Judaism" or whatever? Homestarmy 13:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
So, now can we discuss the changes and build consensus before starting another edit war? Please list the POV issues with the article. Please make a proposal regarding an athiest view section. Thanks.- Andrew c 21:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I think Lisboa is banned for sockpuppetry. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:39, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Some redlinked name appears to of somehow deleted the history of Jesus, redirected the article to the new compleatly undiscussed title which will most likely skew search engine results all across the board and mess up links to this article, and done the same deletion to the talk page. I can move the content back to the original title, but the history will be lost in the redirect, can anyone somehow revert this name change? Homestarmy 18:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey this article is amasing, and i really can't find anythign wrong with it, and it's got one heck of a lot of inline citations. so with all that i think that we should nominate it for FA status. Any Thoughts????
peace out- Three ways round 21:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
i couldn't find those citation needed tags, so i'm gonna nominate. I get what your saying about the debate and everything, but i don't think the debate will ever settle down. so it's better to push forward, plus i don't think it should be that much of a problem.
peace - Three ways round 22:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for being so rushed. I just found this article and was amased at how good it was. so i kinda got really really over-excited. Sorry bout that, but hopefully it will all turn out good.
peace- Three ways round 15:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and can anyone access this site which is used in a reference: [6]. The page kind of loads on my screen, but no text appears.... Homestarmy 02:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
It looks like the reason for the gap is because the Jesus series template is inside that top box which contains the main picture, in a preview, when its not in the box, the article doesn't get deformed in the same way, but then the box makes a large gap at the top. Why is the image even in that wikisyntax box anyway, its just a bunch of text under the image.... Homestarmy 22:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
An issue with this section and its mini-sections has come up on the FA nom. Someone seems to want to know more about how the Apocrypha, which are mentioned extensively in this section, were excluded from the basic canon of today, and some more expanded content discussing it. However, as I read the corresponding articles on some of these books, i'm starting to doubt the relevance of a pretty big chunk of this section. Many of the articles on the books seem like they don't have much important information at all on Jesus' life, Thomas is just a gospel about what Jesus' presumably said about various things, several of the books don't even seem to mention Jesus much at all, and considering how much of the sections seem to deal with the apocrypha themselves in relation to the Bible, i'm starting to wonder just how relevant some of these sentences are in relation to the article subject. For instance, the paragraph "Books that were not included are known as the New Testament apocrypha. These include the Gospel of Thomas, a collection of logia—phrases and sayings attributed to Jesus without a narrative framework, only rediscovered in the 20th century. Other important apocryphal works that had a heavy influence in forming traditional Christian beliefs include the Apocalypse of Peter, Protevangelium of James, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, and Acts of Peter. A number of Christian traditions (such as Veronica's veil and the Assumption of Mary) are found not in the canonical gospels but in these and other apocryphal works." Doesn't seem to have anything to do with Jesus at all, but rather, the Bible, Christianity, and background on Christian theology, and sentences like "It took several centuries before the list of what was and was not part of the Bible became finally fixed, and for much of the early period the Book of Revelation was not included while works like The Shepherd of Hermas were." seem to not belong either, Revelations doesn't really add anything to Jesus' life either except one more sentence, and The Shepard of Hermas appears to have absolutly nothing to do with Jesus at all from its article. Does much of this stuff belong? I don't want to give an answer on the FA nom about this unless I know what really is all going on. Homestarmy 20:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Having a section on Jesus' life as told by non-canonical sources may be a good addition, however, you are clearly overstating the significance of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. It is by far the majority view of critical scholars that the Infancy Gospel is significantly later than the Gospels, and thereby a lot less historically significant when analyzing the historical Jesus. So to say that it holds equal weight is simply giving undue weight to a minority view (BTW, can you name a few scholars that hold that view). - Andrew c 22:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Oddly, the line "Most modern Biblical scholars hold that the works describing Jesus were initially communicated by oral tradition, and were not committed to writing until several decades after Jesus' crucifixion." doesn't actually seem to have an equivalent anywhere in Historicity of Jesus, which seems strange to me, because it sounds kind of obvious. Would this stuff more properly be in Historical Jesus? It might make more sense for the whole section on sources to be summarizing Historical Jesus instead of Historicity of Jesus, or even both articles, since Historical Jesus probably has more material about sources too. Homestarmy 02:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
If there is a section on questions on reliability of sources, shouldn't there a a section on arguments on reliability of sources? There are more, much more scholars who support the latter view, isn't it? Kleinbell 05:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
"Encyclopedia of Islam, Jesus article" Is all that it reads, and its used in three places, what is this supposed to mean? Was there once some main reference at the bottom, because I don't see it anywhere. Homestarmy 21:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
One hurdle we have hit with the FA nom is the question of reference standardization. The use of citation templates must be subject to the approval of editors here. Since we are only using 4 citation templates, it seems best to just convert them to a non-template based citation. If anyone has any comments regarding citations standardization, or diagrees with removing the 4 template uses, please bring up concerns here. Thanks.- Andrew c 14:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone answer a question about what it is called during the life of Christ? We have B.C which stands for before Christ and A.D. which stands for After Death. Anyone one knows how this came about?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.165.76.78 ( talk • contribs) 23:05, 19 April 2007.
No matter what you put into this article please remember to respect Christians and their beliefs. A friend of mine who is Christian recently opened the 'Jesus' page and found slightly disrespectful content.But man! I'm a Christian and didn't see anything wrong with it.-- 4H 08:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Can someone translate the following for me please.
""the Jews intended to destroy the person of Jesus completely; in fact, they crucified only his nasut, his lahut remained alive"
Thanks JHJPDJKDKHI! 07:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Jesus had long hair and a beard,wore sandles, was non violent, hung out with the dregs of society and "railed" against the man.In addition, he was a drifter agaist materialism and fed the poor.The other day i was with a freind and we saw a hippy,the simularities of this hippy and the most common pictures of Jesus were uncanny.-- Crabsoup 09:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Based on his parents and the country his parents lived in, would Jesus have been born white like he is in paintings, or more like arab or summat? I know it must have been discussed here before, but the page doesn't mention his ethnicity and I am not looking through 100 pages of talk JayKeaton 08:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
He's only depicted as Caucasian in paintings because the artists were Caucasian. Jesus was born in the Middle East; it's likely he had black hair, and probably slightly darker skin than most Europeans, but there is a wide range of skin tones among inhabitants of that area. He almost certainly wasn't "black" in the sense that we usually think of in America (very dark brown skin, tightly curled hair), although he's occasionally been portrayed that way for artistic purposes. -- MatthewDBA 11:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Can people who know much of the history of the canonization of the Gospels comment here? Thanks Slrubenstein | Talk 18:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello You Bold Men & Women who have done a lot of good work on Wikipedia's "JESUS."
Under headings of "Historicity" and subsequently, "Reconstructing a historical Jesus" I have several questions. (Please give me a hand on my editing where ever I need it.)
The former heading states,
Scholars have used the historical method to develop probable reconstructions of Jesus' life. This is different than the New Testament view on Jesus' life in that it is not derived solely from the text of the Christian Bible. A small minority of scholars dispute Jesus' existence. Block quote
It doesn't appear very well to me that the Historical Method http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method has been used at all. How could anyone use the Historical Method without the New Testament (NT)? There is very, very little outside the NT which proves Jesus in history. Why aren't the NT books considered primary sources for the historicity of Jesus? In what way do the NT books not meet and exceed the Historical Method?
I just wonder if the disregard isn't from thinking that using the NT would be a "circular argument." That is, many think it wrong to refer to biblical passages in support of biblical claims. But that objection is unfounded for practical, legal and logical reasons. Practically speaking, there is no better place to begin than with what is self-claimed, and there is no other place to begin. Legally, anyone can testify in his own behalf in a court of law. Fairness dictates that the NT should be a witness in its own behalf. Finally, the logical point of departure allows us to study its claims rather than the claims simply supporting themselves. (Nix, William E.: A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded. Chicago : Moody Press, 1996, c1986, p. 49).
In other words, how can any Historical Method be employed at all without a NT view? It's substantively the only history we've got.
For these reasons I also wonder why the term "probable" is used in reference to reconstructing Jesus's life. I don't think one would say that Caesar's Gallic Wars has been used to develop probable reconstructions of Caesar's life. In fact, why doesn't such a doubtful word violate Aristotle's dictum:
The benefit of the doubt is to be given to the document itself, not arrogated by the critic to himself.
Under the latter heading I have these following questions:
Secular historians generally describe Jesus as an itinerant preacher and leader of a religious movement within Judaism.[28] According to historical reconstruction, Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, taught in parables and aphorisms, challenged expectations of holiness and social hierarchy, and was crucified by the Romans. Historians are divided on whether Jesus led a career of healing and exorcism, whether he preached the imminent end of the world, and whether he intended to be crucified.
Most scholars agree the Gospel of Mark was written shortly before or after the destruction of the Jewish Temple by the Romans under Titus in the year 70, and the other gospels written between 70-100.[29] The historical outlook on Jesus relies on criticism of the Bible, especially the gospels.
Many scholars have sought to reconstruct Jesus' life in terms of contemporaneous political, cultural, and religious currents in Israel, including differences between Galilee and Judea, and between different sects such the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and Zealots.[30][31] and in terms of conflicts among Jews in the context of Roman occupation.
"Secular historians" have exactly what persuasive historical data on Jesus outside the NT? How is the NT supposed to be "reconstructed" historically? Isn't this really revisionism rather than historical methodology? And isn't all of that a violation of Aristotle's dictum? How is an itinerant preacher, leader of a small movement within Judaism, a teacher in parables and user of aphorisms a characterization of this historical man? Doesn't the historical record actually record that Jesus claimed to be God!? Whether we agree with that or not shouldn't shape a revision of what we think the history should have been. We should only report the historical facts and let the reader judge the matter himself, shouldn't we? I think one has to admit those characterizations have a historical source, why then are they are not given their historical place? Finally, is there some blemish on the NT books' history I'm unaware of? I know not of even one historical error mentioned in the NT. In fact, all the sources I know say in all of history there is no greater attestation, not even from the collective works of antiquity, than we have for the NT.
I have never actually taken a count the number of scholars, but it's an error to think very many scholars believe the gospel of Mark was written late. Late dates aid only those who refuse to accept the historical accounts of miracles, and thus those who feel their jobs are to demythologize the NT books. In fact, there is substantial evidence which says all the NT books were finished prior to CE/AD 70. Yes, even the works of apostle John. Yes, even the book of Revelation which has generally been assigned CE/AD 96.
That's a total fabrication. When I discovered the entry for "JESUS" I was astonished as to how woefully lacking the historicity is. There is a lot of work to do, isn't there? Sky 16:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)Sky