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Please discuss for a vote.
changes in italics
... agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee (then part of Iudaea) who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, claimed he was the Son of God, was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion. ...
Neutralaccounting 22:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The passage should certainly be in the article. There are absolutly scholars who accept this as factual - a great many. He didn't just claim to be the Son of God, but even equal to God.
Lostcaesar 18:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
"Mark woulodn't make sense .." ... to Christians. Scholars who are not Christians, or who braket their Christianity, have other ways of making sense of Marx. The point is, "scholars" is too general a term. We can't lump Geza Vermes and Thomis Aquinas in the same dategory even if they are both scholars. Doing so would subvert our NPOV policy because we need to distinguish different points of view. The sentence in question refers to modern scholars who are at the least neutral on any supernatural claims in the NT. I think it provides an accurate account of what they agree on. These scholars are different from clerics and theologians who are certainly scholars but of a very different sort. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The opinion on the truthfulness of that varies, but a large number of scholars have put their name down at the Jesus Conference that he wasn't the Son of God. There really isn't a list of same number of scholars or more that would support that he is the Son of God. But this research isn't the issue. What we have in the primary, secondary, and oral sources are. Neutralaccounting 01:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Mark makes sense to me, but I doubt that he makes sense to me in the same way as he makes sense to you. You seem to be missing the point here. Some people believe that a text allows for only one interpretation. But this is just one point of view. Others believe texts allow for multiple interpretations. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Buddy, in the real world "a statement about the structure and plot" is called "an interpretation." Please stop pushing your POV here. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
First, the text (Mark, for example) says many things and this is not the place even to summarize what Mark says about Jesus. Perhaps we could have an article on the book of Mark which can go into the history of the text and different interpretations as well as a straightforward summary. In the meantime, to single out one thing of the many many things Mark says is to make a claim about its relative importance and that is an interpretive act. if it is an interpretive act many scholars have made then it is certainly allowable in Wikipedia, we just need to find the right place, as long as the point of view is clearly established. If it is your interpretive act (from what you have said, it isn't. you have said that there are scholars who say this) you know it would be disallowed as a violation of NOR. But the important issue is the second one, that the paragraph and sentence in question is not about "what the text says" it is about what "most scholars in biblical studies and history" believe about Jesus. This phrase has changed a lot of the past year, is used to say "critical scholars" and other things, but everyone involved in working on it understand it to refer not to clerics or theologicans, not because they are not scholars but because their scholarship is informed by religious beliefs or concerns. This sentence address the beliefs of scholars whose work is not informed by their religious beliefs or concerns, and by scholars who may be of faith but who bracket their faith to employ methods used by secular scholars. As such the sentence is an accurate account of what most of them say. The proposed edit would be a distortion of this account of this point of view. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
If we agree that (1) you are referring primarily to scholars who are also clerics or theologians and (2) scholars who are commenting as much on the texts of the Gospels as on Jesus as such, I have a suggestion: The section, "Life and Teaching according to the Gospels" is currently introduced by a two sentence paragraph (before the geneology and family subsection). My suggestion is to add to this too-brief introductory paragraph a brief summary of the main claims made by such scholars about the Gospel account of Jesus. Be sure that you are providing an account not of what the Gospels "say" but rather about what a set of scholars say about the Gospels. If you have read secular studies of the Gospels by literary critics by all means add their views too - I assume they exist, i just do not know them. Include links to related articles (e.g. Christology). You might want to present the paragraph here on this talk page to get feedback before putting it in, but it seems to me that if you follow my advice you will succeed in adding to the article what you consider an important point, and will do so in a way that will meet little or no objection. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
None of the major modern scholars I know of consider the Gospels to be first hand eye-witness accounts. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed that the Gospels are primary sources. that is not the same things as eye-witness sources. Claim is not a weasel word, look it up in the dictionary. Scholars claim things all the time, and most major modern historians of this period claim that Jesus was tried for sedition. The preceeding statement is a fact. It is a factual summary of what a number of people claim. I have provided the sources in the past and they are in the bibliography. Slrubenstein | Talk 08:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Slrubenstein,
Wasn't Jesus born in 1 B.C.E.C.E., not 2 B.C.E.C.E.? Before the Common Era Common Era starts when Jesus was born, which would've been 1 BCE CE, not 2 BCECE.--
Richard 23:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Oops I meant to say CE. Still, CE starts RIGHT when Jesus was born. 1 BCE was the year before Jesus, and 1 CE was the year Jesus was born. I doesn't make sense to say that he was born in 2 CE at all.-- Richard 01:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I saw a documentary on Jesus's birth that he was actually born on the 17th of April, not December. Can't remember the date though. Why? Because December's way too cold for sheeps to be there during Jesus's birth- and he was already a child (about two years old) when he was adored by the magis- maybe someone should correct the sentence about magis adoring the infant Jesus? Besides, the man filming the documentary managed to get experts for the North Star to find the real date and a dream book to know what the three wise men actually thought of their "dreams". The north star was engraved in an ancient coin which gives alot of information. Cool, right? Dionysus was a poor mathematician too- probably why there are many mistakes of when he was born. 9693 22:45 PM, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I thought Dionysus was a mathematician- I didn't know he was a wine god. I'm totally confused. Bty thanks for the contribution. Yikes I shouldn't have relied on one source... 9693 11:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
José or "something like that" is claiming to be Jesus Christ. According to CBS, this man claims to be Christ's 2nd Coming. He is 60 years old, Former Heroin Addict. There are several problems with his claim. He is Hispanic. I am not racist, if you read my thoughts under Black Jesus Section, but Jesus is Israeli. He has sinned, heroin addict, he claims the Devil is destroyed, and was destroyed 1000 years ago. The Bible specifically states, from the mouth of Jesus, that in the end times, there will be people who claim to be the Messiah, God Himself, God's Son. I warn you, before and if you get involved with this false testament, there are words in the Bible saying this is a lie. If this New Jèsus says ANYTHING against the Bible, you have even more proof he isn't real. -- 66.218.17.183 03:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
this page needs archiving now. Jpe| ob 08:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the personal data is controversial and inherently POV. I for one believe he was born in Nazareth; some think he wasn't born at all. We express all these views or none at all. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I think we can improve the Christ views on Jesus passage. Currently it begins with trinitarian and non-trinitarian beliefs, and later adds the common ground only in passing, almost glossing over the resurrection. IMHO the passage should state first that Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah and believe that he rose again after being crucified. All the other things can than be listed. Thoughts? Str1977 (smile back) 07:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Jesus may be making the sign of " a priest" but it is nothing like the sign of a Jewish priest, which is a little remarkable given that Jesus and his initial followers were Jewish. I don't think we need to dwell on this, but I do think we should be specific that he is making a sign of a Christian priest. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I did not realize this would be such a big deal, as I saw the change just a minor removal of excess words, since the caption is so long. I assume that a reader will realize that a 6th century mosaic is a portrayal, but if you want then put back the words. P.S., Just because Jesus and his followers were ethnically Jewish does not mean they did everything exactly as first century Jews did; indeed, from history it would seem obvious they did not, since they got into conflict with Jewish authorities. Is there a source that identifies when the sign of the cross can be historically dated as originating? I have seen it mentioned in very ancient texts - are we sure it did not exist in the first century? Lostcaesar 12:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
"Just because Jesus and his followers were ethnically Jewish does not mean they did everything exactly as first century Jews did". Except they did. (within the diversity within the 1c Jews). -- Haldrik 15:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Matthew 23:1–4: "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."
IMHO the caption should be drastically shortened. The picture shows Jesus in blessing gesture. Whether he is using the sign of the cross is not only questionable - it is also irrelevant to 'this article. And even more irrelevant it is that there was no sign of the cross in the 1st century, quite aside that the sign of the cross is no "ritual". Str1977 (smile back) 16:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
This is very bizarre to me, since this is just an attempt to clear up wording. I will explain my changes as follows. The caption is too long. I took out Christian, the adjective modifying priest, since it is obvious from the image. It is Jesus Christ, making a sign of the cross, in the position of et filii, with a halo and a cross on it. Slrubenstein thinks this is not enough to distinguish the priest as non-Jewish. The caption also said that it was "a portrayal" of Jesus gesturing, I think it should be obvious that an image is a portrayal, but Haldrik disagrees. I would prefer not to insult the intelligence of our reader. It is a minor edit, not a world ending crisis. Lostcaesar 16:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems many people dont know what a "blessing" means. For example, here is a Lutheran minister performing a "blessing". (That is, he's making a sign of the cross.) As many people arent familiar with this terminology, "blessing", the description needs to be clearer. -- Haldrik 23:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this deserves a sentence or two in the article, like in a trivia section or something. -- 172.132.243.219 06:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC) (See also: Shingo, Aomori, [2], and [3])
Bond Extreme 18:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC) That doesn't mean that the Japan legend is true. Most people do not believe that the Japan legend is true, which Jesus was married, and had a family. Not many believe that. I say that can stay out of the article. The Christian Bible, which is the right Bible says that Jesus died on the cross, and rose again. Bond Extreme 18:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The article discusses the Historicity of Jesus, however it doesn't even touch the teachings of the "historical" Jesus, and its similiarities and differences with Christianity as most Christians have historically professed. -- Aminz 10:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Neutralaccounting 06:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
This line about the Christian trilemma is in the Trinitarian section. "They combine this with the classic proof based on the two rational alternatives in the face of Jesus' repeated claims that he is the one God of Israel (e.g. Jn 8:58): either he is truly God or a bad man (a liar or a lunatic), the latter being dismissed on the basis of Jesus's perceived coherence. [42]" This line takes as a given Jesus' repeated claims to be God, but there's no hard evidence that he ever made these claims. It assumes that there are only two rational alternatives and ignores a third (that Jesus never made these claims in the first place). In any event, I'm not sure that this article could bear the weight of explaining how different people argue for their respective positions on Jesus. Instead of bringing up an argument where there isn't room to address it fairly or even point out that its premises are questionable, let's just say what trinitarians believe and leave out the argument about the trilemma. Jonathan Tweet 13:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Discuss. Neutralaccounting 06:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm at a loss to understand how this image shows Jesus with "distinctively African features". He seems to be as white as they come with a thin, straight nose. The latter feature is also common in Ethiopia, but apart from the curly black hair, which is also commonplace in southern Europe, I see nothing distinctively "African" here at all. I've no objection at all to including an image of an African-looking Jesus, but we shouldn't claim something about a specific image that's demonstrably wishful-thinking. Paul B 07:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 70 | ← | Archive 74 | Archive 75 | Archive 76 | Archive 77 | Archive 78 | → | Archive 80 |
Please discuss for a vote.
changes in italics
... agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee (then part of Iudaea) who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, claimed he was the Son of God, was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion. ...
Neutralaccounting 22:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The passage should certainly be in the article. There are absolutly scholars who accept this as factual - a great many. He didn't just claim to be the Son of God, but even equal to God.
Lostcaesar 18:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
"Mark woulodn't make sense .." ... to Christians. Scholars who are not Christians, or who braket their Christianity, have other ways of making sense of Marx. The point is, "scholars" is too general a term. We can't lump Geza Vermes and Thomis Aquinas in the same dategory even if they are both scholars. Doing so would subvert our NPOV policy because we need to distinguish different points of view. The sentence in question refers to modern scholars who are at the least neutral on any supernatural claims in the NT. I think it provides an accurate account of what they agree on. These scholars are different from clerics and theologians who are certainly scholars but of a very different sort. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The opinion on the truthfulness of that varies, but a large number of scholars have put their name down at the Jesus Conference that he wasn't the Son of God. There really isn't a list of same number of scholars or more that would support that he is the Son of God. But this research isn't the issue. What we have in the primary, secondary, and oral sources are. Neutralaccounting 01:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Mark makes sense to me, but I doubt that he makes sense to me in the same way as he makes sense to you. You seem to be missing the point here. Some people believe that a text allows for only one interpretation. But this is just one point of view. Others believe texts allow for multiple interpretations. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Buddy, in the real world "a statement about the structure and plot" is called "an interpretation." Please stop pushing your POV here. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
First, the text (Mark, for example) says many things and this is not the place even to summarize what Mark says about Jesus. Perhaps we could have an article on the book of Mark which can go into the history of the text and different interpretations as well as a straightforward summary. In the meantime, to single out one thing of the many many things Mark says is to make a claim about its relative importance and that is an interpretive act. if it is an interpretive act many scholars have made then it is certainly allowable in Wikipedia, we just need to find the right place, as long as the point of view is clearly established. If it is your interpretive act (from what you have said, it isn't. you have said that there are scholars who say this) you know it would be disallowed as a violation of NOR. But the important issue is the second one, that the paragraph and sentence in question is not about "what the text says" it is about what "most scholars in biblical studies and history" believe about Jesus. This phrase has changed a lot of the past year, is used to say "critical scholars" and other things, but everyone involved in working on it understand it to refer not to clerics or theologicans, not because they are not scholars but because their scholarship is informed by religious beliefs or concerns. This sentence address the beliefs of scholars whose work is not informed by their religious beliefs or concerns, and by scholars who may be of faith but who bracket their faith to employ methods used by secular scholars. As such the sentence is an accurate account of what most of them say. The proposed edit would be a distortion of this account of this point of view. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
If we agree that (1) you are referring primarily to scholars who are also clerics or theologians and (2) scholars who are commenting as much on the texts of the Gospels as on Jesus as such, I have a suggestion: The section, "Life and Teaching according to the Gospels" is currently introduced by a two sentence paragraph (before the geneology and family subsection). My suggestion is to add to this too-brief introductory paragraph a brief summary of the main claims made by such scholars about the Gospel account of Jesus. Be sure that you are providing an account not of what the Gospels "say" but rather about what a set of scholars say about the Gospels. If you have read secular studies of the Gospels by literary critics by all means add their views too - I assume they exist, i just do not know them. Include links to related articles (e.g. Christology). You might want to present the paragraph here on this talk page to get feedback before putting it in, but it seems to me that if you follow my advice you will succeed in adding to the article what you consider an important point, and will do so in a way that will meet little or no objection. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
None of the major modern scholars I know of consider the Gospels to be first hand eye-witness accounts. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed that the Gospels are primary sources. that is not the same things as eye-witness sources. Claim is not a weasel word, look it up in the dictionary. Scholars claim things all the time, and most major modern historians of this period claim that Jesus was tried for sedition. The preceeding statement is a fact. It is a factual summary of what a number of people claim. I have provided the sources in the past and they are in the bibliography. Slrubenstein | Talk 08:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Slrubenstein,
Wasn't Jesus born in 1 B.C.E.C.E., not 2 B.C.E.C.E.? Before the Common Era Common Era starts when Jesus was born, which would've been 1 BCE CE, not 2 BCECE.--
Richard 23:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Oops I meant to say CE. Still, CE starts RIGHT when Jesus was born. 1 BCE was the year before Jesus, and 1 CE was the year Jesus was born. I doesn't make sense to say that he was born in 2 CE at all.-- Richard 01:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I saw a documentary on Jesus's birth that he was actually born on the 17th of April, not December. Can't remember the date though. Why? Because December's way too cold for sheeps to be there during Jesus's birth- and he was already a child (about two years old) when he was adored by the magis- maybe someone should correct the sentence about magis adoring the infant Jesus? Besides, the man filming the documentary managed to get experts for the North Star to find the real date and a dream book to know what the three wise men actually thought of their "dreams". The north star was engraved in an ancient coin which gives alot of information. Cool, right? Dionysus was a poor mathematician too- probably why there are many mistakes of when he was born. 9693 22:45 PM, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I thought Dionysus was a mathematician- I didn't know he was a wine god. I'm totally confused. Bty thanks for the contribution. Yikes I shouldn't have relied on one source... 9693 11:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
José or "something like that" is claiming to be Jesus Christ. According to CBS, this man claims to be Christ's 2nd Coming. He is 60 years old, Former Heroin Addict. There are several problems with his claim. He is Hispanic. I am not racist, if you read my thoughts under Black Jesus Section, but Jesus is Israeli. He has sinned, heroin addict, he claims the Devil is destroyed, and was destroyed 1000 years ago. The Bible specifically states, from the mouth of Jesus, that in the end times, there will be people who claim to be the Messiah, God Himself, God's Son. I warn you, before and if you get involved with this false testament, there are words in the Bible saying this is a lie. If this New Jèsus says ANYTHING against the Bible, you have even more proof he isn't real. -- 66.218.17.183 03:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
this page needs archiving now. Jpe| ob 08:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the personal data is controversial and inherently POV. I for one believe he was born in Nazareth; some think he wasn't born at all. We express all these views or none at all. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I think we can improve the Christ views on Jesus passage. Currently it begins with trinitarian and non-trinitarian beliefs, and later adds the common ground only in passing, almost glossing over the resurrection. IMHO the passage should state first that Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah and believe that he rose again after being crucified. All the other things can than be listed. Thoughts? Str1977 (smile back) 07:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Jesus may be making the sign of " a priest" but it is nothing like the sign of a Jewish priest, which is a little remarkable given that Jesus and his initial followers were Jewish. I don't think we need to dwell on this, but I do think we should be specific that he is making a sign of a Christian priest. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I did not realize this would be such a big deal, as I saw the change just a minor removal of excess words, since the caption is so long. I assume that a reader will realize that a 6th century mosaic is a portrayal, but if you want then put back the words. P.S., Just because Jesus and his followers were ethnically Jewish does not mean they did everything exactly as first century Jews did; indeed, from history it would seem obvious they did not, since they got into conflict with Jewish authorities. Is there a source that identifies when the sign of the cross can be historically dated as originating? I have seen it mentioned in very ancient texts - are we sure it did not exist in the first century? Lostcaesar 12:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
"Just because Jesus and his followers were ethnically Jewish does not mean they did everything exactly as first century Jews did". Except they did. (within the diversity within the 1c Jews). -- Haldrik 15:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Matthew 23:1–4: "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."
IMHO the caption should be drastically shortened. The picture shows Jesus in blessing gesture. Whether he is using the sign of the cross is not only questionable - it is also irrelevant to 'this article. And even more irrelevant it is that there was no sign of the cross in the 1st century, quite aside that the sign of the cross is no "ritual". Str1977 (smile back) 16:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
This is very bizarre to me, since this is just an attempt to clear up wording. I will explain my changes as follows. The caption is too long. I took out Christian, the adjective modifying priest, since it is obvious from the image. It is Jesus Christ, making a sign of the cross, in the position of et filii, with a halo and a cross on it. Slrubenstein thinks this is not enough to distinguish the priest as non-Jewish. The caption also said that it was "a portrayal" of Jesus gesturing, I think it should be obvious that an image is a portrayal, but Haldrik disagrees. I would prefer not to insult the intelligence of our reader. It is a minor edit, not a world ending crisis. Lostcaesar 16:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
It seems many people dont know what a "blessing" means. For example, here is a Lutheran minister performing a "blessing". (That is, he's making a sign of the cross.) As many people arent familiar with this terminology, "blessing", the description needs to be clearer. -- Haldrik 23:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this deserves a sentence or two in the article, like in a trivia section or something. -- 172.132.243.219 06:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC) (See also: Shingo, Aomori, [2], and [3])
Bond Extreme 18:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC) That doesn't mean that the Japan legend is true. Most people do not believe that the Japan legend is true, which Jesus was married, and had a family. Not many believe that. I say that can stay out of the article. The Christian Bible, which is the right Bible says that Jesus died on the cross, and rose again. Bond Extreme 18:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The article discusses the Historicity of Jesus, however it doesn't even touch the teachings of the "historical" Jesus, and its similiarities and differences with Christianity as most Christians have historically professed. -- Aminz 10:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Neutralaccounting 06:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
This line about the Christian trilemma is in the Trinitarian section. "They combine this with the classic proof based on the two rational alternatives in the face of Jesus' repeated claims that he is the one God of Israel (e.g. Jn 8:58): either he is truly God or a bad man (a liar or a lunatic), the latter being dismissed on the basis of Jesus's perceived coherence. [42]" This line takes as a given Jesus' repeated claims to be God, but there's no hard evidence that he ever made these claims. It assumes that there are only two rational alternatives and ignores a third (that Jesus never made these claims in the first place). In any event, I'm not sure that this article could bear the weight of explaining how different people argue for their respective positions on Jesus. Instead of bringing up an argument where there isn't room to address it fairly or even point out that its premises are questionable, let's just say what trinitarians believe and leave out the argument about the trilemma. Jonathan Tweet 13:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Discuss. Neutralaccounting 06:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm at a loss to understand how this image shows Jesus with "distinctively African features". He seems to be as white as they come with a thin, straight nose. The latter feature is also common in Ethiopia, but apart from the curly black hair, which is also commonplace in southern Europe, I see nothing distinctively "African" here at all. I've no objection at all to including an image of an African-looking Jesus, but we shouldn't claim something about a specific image that's demonstrably wishful-thinking. Paul B 07:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)