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Archive 70 | ← | Archive 72 | Archive 73 | Archive 74 | Archive 75 | Archive 76 | → | Archive 80 |
Actual vote moved to [/Archive 72].
Voting ends 0600 UTC on 3 September 2006 (Voting now ended). Result: No consensus, no change.
I don't think I have ever participated in this article. I have it on my watchlist as a core biography.
But my view of the poll and discussion above is that there is no consensus for change. My view is that the compromise has stood for a while and is most harmonious. Maurreen 21:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
If I really had my druthers ... We would totally abandon both "AD" and "CE", and instead just write "Year 1" or "Y 1" (= 1 CE), "Year 0" (= 1 BCE), and "Year -1" (= 2 BCE). I cant stand this crazy archaic BC/AD system that was formulated before the discovery of the number zero! -- Haldrik 21:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
It appears OLP1999 has changed the era notation to BC/AD citing the above vote as "consensus". JimWae reverted this change stating there is no consensus. OLP1999 then reverted Jim. IMHO, a 16-11 vote with 9 abstentions is by no means a new consensus. — Aiden 02:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not a vote, it's an attempt to reach consensus, which often includes compromise. Counting votes is not how consensus is determined. Discussion is. Peyna 05:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The way it works is that if no new consensus has been achieved, the previous consensus stands. — Aiden 15:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
What's more important: Arguing over a couple of letters that have nothing to do with the content of this article, or actually working on the dreded historicity section? Come on now people, voting didn't get us any further, and arguing about it now isn't either. Please, contribute to the actual content of this article, and stop wasting so much time and energy on debating such petty matters. How are we ever going to reach FA status, if we can't even work on the actual content of the article?-- Andrew c 21:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Why can't I edit this page?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.203.190.135 ( talk • contribs) 07:19, 2 September 2006.
Can we have an actual article Evidence of the existence of Jesus? Because while I know he didn't have super powers (no offence) I certainly do not know whether he did or didn't exist.-- Greasysteve13 13:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Imagine if the Newton wikipedia article said Newton was the greatest scientist. Imagine if the Einstien article said he was, and the Darwin article that he was. Now imagine an article about a religious person that said he was the holiest or the best prophet or saint or whatever. Now imagine an article about a personage that used language which said that that personage was God. Wait... no need to imagine. -- JimWae 01:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
...since the scientific community bases its self on facts, I tend to side with the scientific community," I was referring to its proceeding question "Just out of curiosity, how do you know he didn't have superpowers". So this discussion of scientists (especially Einstein) believing in God is irrelevant. Especially as there is no-consensus defining God.
I was just reasoning that the general consensus of the scientific community is not to hold a book that could have been written by anyone thousands of years ago as fact. And if you consider what the scientific community already knows about physics, it easy to put two and two together to suggest that the scientific community do not consider Jesus to have superpowers. You also have to consider that many in scientific community are not Christians. -- Greasysteve13 01:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Now I was originally talking about if should there be an article called “ Evidence of the existence of Jesus”, but there seams to be a few similar articles already.-- Greasysteve13 01:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks everyone who helped with the overhaul of the Life section. Now, I believe the weakest link is the historicity section. I have voiced concern in the past the wikipedia doesn't have an article about the historical Jesus, despite names. And this section fails from not covering the topic at hand, being wordy, and being all over the place. I would urge editors to look it over and post here the biggest problems, while being bold and fixing whatever they come across. Maybe after examining the section, we can set goals and focus our efforts into creating a better historicity section.-- Andrew c 02:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the "Pending Tasks" list. Can we strike the life section? Do we need to do anything else, or can we bump the historical up to #1?-- Andrew c 02:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I recently added an "other view" of Jesus to the correct section, and It has since been removed. Can I have some explination? All the links, sources, and format were correct. I have an established account, and didnt see any errors. Second, if it was removed by someone who thought it was an untruth, then I need to ask why there are so many refrences to Josephus' writings but his account of Jesus gets removed. Any insight would be greatly helpful. Thanks J. 13:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Just to give a tentative sketch of my concerns, I think any article about the “quest” for the “historical Jesus”, as distinct from the Christ of faith, needs a frank and clear summary discussion of the philosophical assumptions (and the related issue of historical methods) involved in the process. In my experience the literature in this field often fails to express philosophical views that precede the historical work. Also, I would like the article to include historical contributions that have been made throughout the historiographic process. Often insights of antiquity and the middle ages are excluded because they are not “critical”, and I find this an inappropriate reason, taken alone, as to why they should be excluded. Lostcaesar 14:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I have the same concerns that I did before. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 22:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have just be[EN] locked out as per the upgraded pertection [=PROTECTION], so if someone would please change the translation of Ante Christum Natum from "before the birth of Christ" to the correct "before Christ was born", as per the mainpage [2] Lostcaesar 08:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
It probably says this somewhere in the article but I figured it would be easier to get a straight out answer from here. Could someone tell me which demonination of Judaism Jesus was part of, or at least some equivalent? Some kind of Jewish subdivision or grouping or something of the sort? VolatileChemical 12:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The Jewish Encyclopedia article on Jesus notes: "Jesus, however, does not appear to have taken into account the fact that the Halakah was at this period just becoming crystallized, and that much variation existed as to its definite form; the disputes of the Bet Hillel and Bet Shammai were occurring about the time of his maturity."
E. P. Sanders' next major book was Jesus and Judaism, published in 1985. In this he argued that Jesus began as a follower of John the Baptist and was a prophet of the restoration of Israel. Sanders saw Jesus as creating an eschatological Jewish movement through his appointment of the Apostles and through his preaching and actions. After his execution (the trigger for which was Jesus overthrowing the tables in the temple court of Herod's Temple, thereby challenging the political authorities who then sought his death) his followers continued his movement, expecting his return to restore Israel, part of which was Gentiles worshiping the God of Israel ( Isa 56:6–8, proselyte). Sanders also argued that Jesus was a Pharisee, as he could find no substantial points of opposition between Jesus and the Pharisees, especially as Jesus did not transgress any part of the law. He argues that Jesus did not oppose or reject the Jewish law and that the disciples continued to keep it, as is shown by their continued worship in the Temple (e.g. Acts 3.1; 21.23-26). Sanders also argues that Jesus' sayings did not entirely determine Early Christian behaviour and attitude, as is shown by Paul's discussion of divorce (1 Cor. 7.10-16), who quotes Jesus' sayings and then gives his own independent rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.199.134 ( talk • contribs)
While many relegate it to lore / fiction, the Don Brown best seller Da Vinci Code popularized the idea that Christ had a family via wife Mary Magdalene. And that his descendants survive down to today.
This information is readily available and discussed in depth in the book The Jesus Presidents setting out the facts including tthe descent form Jesus to today which includes USA Presidents descending from Jesus and includes many readers who also descend from Jesus.(Noting the fiction in the Da Vinci Code that 2,000 years later, there would be only one descendant from Jesus lines being silly.)
These facts, then being established, do not in any way detract from or change the traditional religious beliees of Jesus Christ as God incarnate, when the birthdates of the children are before he died on the Cross.
And almost all the apolexy in regard to this subject are rants that are off point and do not consider any of the actual facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.163.101.10 ( talk • contribs)
And did those feet in ancient time ...
It's been a week. Are we ready to request that the page be unlocked, and move on? Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 16:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
There is not a consistent format in which dates are given in this article. For example, in the "Chronology" section, one finds "25 December," "January 6," "December 25," and "14 Nisan." I don't know if there's a standard format for representing Hebrew dates, and I know the format for Gregorian dates varies in different locations, but I recommend changing the Gregorian dates at least to "Month DD," since the ISO 8601 way of doing things is to put the most significant value first. In any case, there should probably be consistency.
Also, "25 December" is not a link, while "December 25," which comes later, is a link.
69.254.34.38 02:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
September 11, 2006. Month day, Year. — Aiden 06:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
2006 September 11, works better as a universal electronic standard. -- Haldrik 03:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
"is the central figure of Christianity." Please amend central figure to read founder, as per Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words the historical and global perspective that he is regarded as -- Tigeroo 06:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)the founder of a distinct community needs to stated unequivocally. Even the encylopedia brittanica does the same [3]. See Talk:Muhammad for a similar discussion.-- Tigeroo 15:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps a better way to state it would be something along the lines of "Christians generally regard Jesus as the founder of Christianity; however, Muslims see Christianity as a distortion of his teachings and therefore do not view him as the founder of the religion." There is probably a better way to say it, but why not present both views? Peyna 15:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo is just pushing his POV. Everyone agrees Jesus is the central figure in Christianity, this is not a use of weasel words. Some pèople believe he was the founder, others believe he was not. This is something that ought to be explored in depth in the Christianity article, not the Jesus article. for the Jesus article it is enough to emphasize his centrality to Christianity. "Founder" is not more precise, it is a different word meaning something different. As to its wide use, well, it is widely used among Christians, which is precisely why it reflects a Christian POV. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Not only Muslims, but also liberal Christian scholars insist that Christianity as it exists today was not founded by Jesus, and that the religion has a lot more of Paul and of the Council of Nicea than of Jesus. Das Baz 19:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Did not Jesus found a group that followed him? You can have all the silly debate over whether they were Christians as such and such would define Christians, but most Christians would say they are people who follow Jesus, and so he is obviously the founder of the movement of people that follow him, Christianity. Roy Brumback 10:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I find proof in neither in the Gospels nor related commentary that Jesus intended or even wanted to found a new religion. Muhammad set out to create (found) a new faith, completely separate from others of his time. So did Sun Myung Moon, Buddha, David Koresh and Zoroaster. Each advocated complete and often violent breakage of all ties to a prevailing faith. They founded new religions. Jesus did none of these things. Paul certainly did along with Peter, but not Jesus. He did not desecrate the temple; indeed, He viewed the existing use of the house of His Father for a marketplace as abhorrent and flew into a rage. These are not the acts of a founder of a new faith but of a reformer and a radical adherent to a faith He saw as sullied or degenerated. Your best argument would have been Mat 16:18, but there He uses the word for a church as in a structure or (loosely) a congregation (εκκλησία) not a church as in a religion or faith (θρησκεία). Christ was not the founder of a religion just because one was built around His life and works. Also, please stop changing the page to fit your POV. {Kevin/Last1in posting without cookies} 63.148.206.250 23:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Ross, do not confuse "majority" and "consensus." They are two different things. There is no consensus that Jesus is the founder of Christianity. And even if 100% of all Christians view him as the founder of Christianity, that would still be a Christian point of view. Let's keep the first paragraph neutral as to point of view. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
It has already been pointed out that there are also Christian theological reasons for objecting to "founder" - on the grounds that Christians do not see Jesus as a prophet or as a sage, but as the incarnation of God whose actions - sacrifice and ressurection - create Christianity, not his assertions. In other words it is arguable that in conventional Christianity he can't be properly identified as the "founder" of the belief, but rather the figure whose identity and life-story become meaningful as Christianity, which is identified as the fulfilment of a divine plan. This is fundamentally different from the standard "prophet" model in which a leader declares that true religion is "beliefs X Y Z", and then acquires followers who accept this revelation. Paul B 12:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi,
Can the page be unprotected so that the vandalism on this page can be deleted? Thanks, Emmanuel
Emmanuel.e 10:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Someone just readded the "blasphemy" charge to the 2nd paragraph, apparently without discussing the change first. Shouldn't it be deleted? Grover cleveland 03:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I have looked into some of the archives but can't find the page where this was discussed. I do have some recollection of the discussion, but as there is no obvious link to the discussion and no reference in the article; perhaps this should be discussed again. What happened was that the scribes and Pharisees wanted to put Jesus to death because of jealously and his apparent blasphemy. They could not do this themselves as only the Romans were currently allowed to put people to death, so they attempted to have Jesus charged with sedition. ross nixon 11:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Scholars who are familiar with Jewish law read the passage of the meeting between Jesus and the highpriest and see there is nothing that occurs that can be construed as religious "blasphemy", according to Jewish law. The meaning of the Greek word "blasphemy" includes a wider sense of "speaking contemptuously" without any religious violation. That may be the intended meaning here. The highpriest had been the political leader of Judea since the beginning of the Hasmonean Period. It may be Jesus was perceived as being insubordinant to this highpriest's authority. If Jesus declared himself to be the king without the highpriest's permission, it could be construed contempt of the highpriest's authority. (Both Christian and Jewish texts are highly critical of highpriests, especially accusing them of being violent and abusive.) Alternatively, some scholars see the highpriest as a perhaps neutral figure, who observes that Jesus's self-enthronement is political "blasphemy" against the Roman emperor. The highpriest's motive is not so much to enforce the Rome's power, as much as it is to protect Judea from the wrath of the Roman armies. Thus, the fact that Jesus refused to renounce his messianic claims was tantamount to inspiring the Jewish masses to revolt against Rome - and thus to percieved suicide. For this reason then, the highpriest "handed over" Jesus to the Roman authorities. In any case, the entire incident between the highpriest and Jesus is part of a complex of specific problems that lead some scholars to suggest it never happened and was written later for other reasons. It just cant be said that "most scholars" agree about this. In the final analysis, Jesus was executed for political reasons against Rome, by Rome. Most scholars agree Jesus was crucified. -- Haldrik 19:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Very interesting. Can you tell me which Bible commentators or historians interpret Matthew 26:25 this way? Slrubenstein | Talk 23:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add a comment stating that the source of the separation between normative Christianity and the Gnostics was over the interpretation of the 'resurrection', as pointed out in the Introduction to the Nag Hammadi Library in English by James Robinson.
Clearly, Christianity believes that the 'resurrection' refers to the raising of a dead physical body from the grave; but, in the Treatise on the Resurrection, it is asserted that the 'resurrection' is believed in by one 'philosopher in the world' (arguably Plato), who believed in the doctrine of 'reincarnation'. Thus, a reasonable deduction is that the doctrine of 'reincarnation' is at least similar to the Gnostic understanding of the 'resurrection'. And it would also fit in with the assertion of Jesus that "John (the Baptist)...is Elijah'.
Whether or not the Gnostic understanding of the 'resurrection' is correct, any statement about Gnosticism which does not include the fundamental reason for the separation between the Gnostics and the Christians is incomplete.
Michael J. 13:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)Michael J.
As long as we stick to good secondary sources, we will keep learning cool stuff like this. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I would argue this is not merely 'cool stuff'. The question is whether this intellectual effort will be an objective description of the conflict. Michael J. Michael J.
There were many different movements which modern scholars lump together as "Gnostics". The obvious reason for the incompatability of Gnosticism with Judeo-Christianity, is that notable Gnostic movements literally demonized the Judeo-Christian God, God's creation, and the Hebrew Bible. The Gnostics declared the God of the Bible a false god, the "demiurge", equivalent to a kind of a satan that created the material world to blind humans to the "true" "spiritual" "god". This belief that the Jewish and Christian God is evil, is antithetical to both Christians and Jews, who believe God and God's creation are ultimately good. -- Haldrik 18:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The obvious reason is obvious, and important, but still one of many historians have discussed. Nuff said here. Haldrik, have you looked at the article on Ebionites? There was a request for peer review and you may have some constructive comments there. Personally, I think it would be worthwhile to look at the range of articles relating second century religious movements competing for dominance or on the fringe of what would later become Rabbinic Judaism or orthodox (or Catholic) Christianity (i.e. including some gnostic movements and Ebionites) as a group, and try to establish uniform standards or areas of concern for each. Others who have contributed to the Jesus article who are expert on early Christianity or late Hellenic/Roman Judaism might want to look at these articles too. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Talmud view of Jesus --unsigned by User talk:81.52.163.8
This external link has a strongly pro-Christian and slightly anti-Jewish (certainly anti-Talmudic) POV. For balance, there should also be an article or external link on the Talmud and Jesus from a Jewish POV. Das Baz 17:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I have checked the Talmud 2 days ago, and the those texts are right. --unsigned by User talk:81.52.163.8
It is absurd to provide a link about the Talmud to a site that doesnt understand the Talmud. The website belongs to a Christian sect that is apocalyptic lunatic fringe, anti-government, rabidly anti-Jewish, and indulges in bizarre extremist claims for the sake of promoting hate. Not a reliable source. -- Haldrik 20:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thank you great information. --unsigned by User talk:81.52.163.8
Well, do something constructive about it. All the more reason, it seems to me, to write something from the Talmudic viewpoint, without the anti-Semitic slant. I would do it myself, as Storm Rider suggests, if I were a Talmudist. Das Baz 19:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the Yeshu article provides fairly comprehensive coverage of the Talmud's portrayal of "Yeshu." Slrubenstein | Talk 15:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Isnt Jesus' real name Yoshua Ben Yosef? Also, this article should list his names in each religion such as Isa in Islam
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 70 | ← | Archive 72 | Archive 73 | Archive 74 | Archive 75 | Archive 76 | → | Archive 80 |
Actual vote moved to [/Archive 72].
Voting ends 0600 UTC on 3 September 2006 (Voting now ended). Result: No consensus, no change.
I don't think I have ever participated in this article. I have it on my watchlist as a core biography.
But my view of the poll and discussion above is that there is no consensus for change. My view is that the compromise has stood for a while and is most harmonious. Maurreen 21:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
If I really had my druthers ... We would totally abandon both "AD" and "CE", and instead just write "Year 1" or "Y 1" (= 1 CE), "Year 0" (= 1 BCE), and "Year -1" (= 2 BCE). I cant stand this crazy archaic BC/AD system that was formulated before the discovery of the number zero! -- Haldrik 21:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
It appears OLP1999 has changed the era notation to BC/AD citing the above vote as "consensus". JimWae reverted this change stating there is no consensus. OLP1999 then reverted Jim. IMHO, a 16-11 vote with 9 abstentions is by no means a new consensus. — Aiden 02:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not a vote, it's an attempt to reach consensus, which often includes compromise. Counting votes is not how consensus is determined. Discussion is. Peyna 05:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The way it works is that if no new consensus has been achieved, the previous consensus stands. — Aiden 15:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
What's more important: Arguing over a couple of letters that have nothing to do with the content of this article, or actually working on the dreded historicity section? Come on now people, voting didn't get us any further, and arguing about it now isn't either. Please, contribute to the actual content of this article, and stop wasting so much time and energy on debating such petty matters. How are we ever going to reach FA status, if we can't even work on the actual content of the article?-- Andrew c 21:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Why can't I edit this page?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.203.190.135 ( talk • contribs) 07:19, 2 September 2006.
Can we have an actual article Evidence of the existence of Jesus? Because while I know he didn't have super powers (no offence) I certainly do not know whether he did or didn't exist.-- Greasysteve13 13:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Imagine if the Newton wikipedia article said Newton was the greatest scientist. Imagine if the Einstien article said he was, and the Darwin article that he was. Now imagine an article about a religious person that said he was the holiest or the best prophet or saint or whatever. Now imagine an article about a personage that used language which said that that personage was God. Wait... no need to imagine. -- JimWae 01:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
...since the scientific community bases its self on facts, I tend to side with the scientific community," I was referring to its proceeding question "Just out of curiosity, how do you know he didn't have superpowers". So this discussion of scientists (especially Einstein) believing in God is irrelevant. Especially as there is no-consensus defining God.
I was just reasoning that the general consensus of the scientific community is not to hold a book that could have been written by anyone thousands of years ago as fact. And if you consider what the scientific community already knows about physics, it easy to put two and two together to suggest that the scientific community do not consider Jesus to have superpowers. You also have to consider that many in scientific community are not Christians. -- Greasysteve13 01:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Now I was originally talking about if should there be an article called “ Evidence of the existence of Jesus”, but there seams to be a few similar articles already.-- Greasysteve13 01:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks everyone who helped with the overhaul of the Life section. Now, I believe the weakest link is the historicity section. I have voiced concern in the past the wikipedia doesn't have an article about the historical Jesus, despite names. And this section fails from not covering the topic at hand, being wordy, and being all over the place. I would urge editors to look it over and post here the biggest problems, while being bold and fixing whatever they come across. Maybe after examining the section, we can set goals and focus our efforts into creating a better historicity section.-- Andrew c 02:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the "Pending Tasks" list. Can we strike the life section? Do we need to do anything else, or can we bump the historical up to #1?-- Andrew c 02:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I recently added an "other view" of Jesus to the correct section, and It has since been removed. Can I have some explination? All the links, sources, and format were correct. I have an established account, and didnt see any errors. Second, if it was removed by someone who thought it was an untruth, then I need to ask why there are so many refrences to Josephus' writings but his account of Jesus gets removed. Any insight would be greatly helpful. Thanks J. 13:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Just to give a tentative sketch of my concerns, I think any article about the “quest” for the “historical Jesus”, as distinct from the Christ of faith, needs a frank and clear summary discussion of the philosophical assumptions (and the related issue of historical methods) involved in the process. In my experience the literature in this field often fails to express philosophical views that precede the historical work. Also, I would like the article to include historical contributions that have been made throughout the historiographic process. Often insights of antiquity and the middle ages are excluded because they are not “critical”, and I find this an inappropriate reason, taken alone, as to why they should be excluded. Lostcaesar 14:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I have the same concerns that I did before. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 22:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have just be[EN] locked out as per the upgraded pertection [=PROTECTION], so if someone would please change the translation of Ante Christum Natum from "before the birth of Christ" to the correct "before Christ was born", as per the mainpage [2] Lostcaesar 08:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
It probably says this somewhere in the article but I figured it would be easier to get a straight out answer from here. Could someone tell me which demonination of Judaism Jesus was part of, or at least some equivalent? Some kind of Jewish subdivision or grouping or something of the sort? VolatileChemical 12:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The Jewish Encyclopedia article on Jesus notes: "Jesus, however, does not appear to have taken into account the fact that the Halakah was at this period just becoming crystallized, and that much variation existed as to its definite form; the disputes of the Bet Hillel and Bet Shammai were occurring about the time of his maturity."
E. P. Sanders' next major book was Jesus and Judaism, published in 1985. In this he argued that Jesus began as a follower of John the Baptist and was a prophet of the restoration of Israel. Sanders saw Jesus as creating an eschatological Jewish movement through his appointment of the Apostles and through his preaching and actions. After his execution (the trigger for which was Jesus overthrowing the tables in the temple court of Herod's Temple, thereby challenging the political authorities who then sought his death) his followers continued his movement, expecting his return to restore Israel, part of which was Gentiles worshiping the God of Israel ( Isa 56:6–8, proselyte). Sanders also argued that Jesus was a Pharisee, as he could find no substantial points of opposition between Jesus and the Pharisees, especially as Jesus did not transgress any part of the law. He argues that Jesus did not oppose or reject the Jewish law and that the disciples continued to keep it, as is shown by their continued worship in the Temple (e.g. Acts 3.1; 21.23-26). Sanders also argues that Jesus' sayings did not entirely determine Early Christian behaviour and attitude, as is shown by Paul's discussion of divorce (1 Cor. 7.10-16), who quotes Jesus' sayings and then gives his own independent rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.15.199.134 ( talk • contribs)
While many relegate it to lore / fiction, the Don Brown best seller Da Vinci Code popularized the idea that Christ had a family via wife Mary Magdalene. And that his descendants survive down to today.
This information is readily available and discussed in depth in the book The Jesus Presidents setting out the facts including tthe descent form Jesus to today which includes USA Presidents descending from Jesus and includes many readers who also descend from Jesus.(Noting the fiction in the Da Vinci Code that 2,000 years later, there would be only one descendant from Jesus lines being silly.)
These facts, then being established, do not in any way detract from or change the traditional religious beliees of Jesus Christ as God incarnate, when the birthdates of the children are before he died on the Cross.
And almost all the apolexy in regard to this subject are rants that are off point and do not consider any of the actual facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.163.101.10 ( talk • contribs)
And did those feet in ancient time ...
It's been a week. Are we ready to request that the page be unlocked, and move on? Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 16:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
There is not a consistent format in which dates are given in this article. For example, in the "Chronology" section, one finds "25 December," "January 6," "December 25," and "14 Nisan." I don't know if there's a standard format for representing Hebrew dates, and I know the format for Gregorian dates varies in different locations, but I recommend changing the Gregorian dates at least to "Month DD," since the ISO 8601 way of doing things is to put the most significant value first. In any case, there should probably be consistency.
Also, "25 December" is not a link, while "December 25," which comes later, is a link.
69.254.34.38 02:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
September 11, 2006. Month day, Year. — Aiden 06:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
2006 September 11, works better as a universal electronic standard. -- Haldrik 03:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
"is the central figure of Christianity." Please amend central figure to read founder, as per Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words the historical and global perspective that he is regarded as -- Tigeroo 06:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)the founder of a distinct community needs to stated unequivocally. Even the encylopedia brittanica does the same [3]. See Talk:Muhammad for a similar discussion.-- Tigeroo 15:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps a better way to state it would be something along the lines of "Christians generally regard Jesus as the founder of Christianity; however, Muslims see Christianity as a distortion of his teachings and therefore do not view him as the founder of the religion." There is probably a better way to say it, but why not present both views? Peyna 15:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Tigeroo is just pushing his POV. Everyone agrees Jesus is the central figure in Christianity, this is not a use of weasel words. Some pèople believe he was the founder, others believe he was not. This is something that ought to be explored in depth in the Christianity article, not the Jesus article. for the Jesus article it is enough to emphasize his centrality to Christianity. "Founder" is not more precise, it is a different word meaning something different. As to its wide use, well, it is widely used among Christians, which is precisely why it reflects a Christian POV. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Not only Muslims, but also liberal Christian scholars insist that Christianity as it exists today was not founded by Jesus, and that the religion has a lot more of Paul and of the Council of Nicea than of Jesus. Das Baz 19:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Did not Jesus found a group that followed him? You can have all the silly debate over whether they were Christians as such and such would define Christians, but most Christians would say they are people who follow Jesus, and so he is obviously the founder of the movement of people that follow him, Christianity. Roy Brumback 10:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I find proof in neither in the Gospels nor related commentary that Jesus intended or even wanted to found a new religion. Muhammad set out to create (found) a new faith, completely separate from others of his time. So did Sun Myung Moon, Buddha, David Koresh and Zoroaster. Each advocated complete and often violent breakage of all ties to a prevailing faith. They founded new religions. Jesus did none of these things. Paul certainly did along with Peter, but not Jesus. He did not desecrate the temple; indeed, He viewed the existing use of the house of His Father for a marketplace as abhorrent and flew into a rage. These are not the acts of a founder of a new faith but of a reformer and a radical adherent to a faith He saw as sullied or degenerated. Your best argument would have been Mat 16:18, but there He uses the word for a church as in a structure or (loosely) a congregation (εκκλησία) not a church as in a religion or faith (θρησκεία). Christ was not the founder of a religion just because one was built around His life and works. Also, please stop changing the page to fit your POV. {Kevin/Last1in posting without cookies} 63.148.206.250 23:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Ross, do not confuse "majority" and "consensus." They are two different things. There is no consensus that Jesus is the founder of Christianity. And even if 100% of all Christians view him as the founder of Christianity, that would still be a Christian point of view. Let's keep the first paragraph neutral as to point of view. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
It has already been pointed out that there are also Christian theological reasons for objecting to "founder" - on the grounds that Christians do not see Jesus as a prophet or as a sage, but as the incarnation of God whose actions - sacrifice and ressurection - create Christianity, not his assertions. In other words it is arguable that in conventional Christianity he can't be properly identified as the "founder" of the belief, but rather the figure whose identity and life-story become meaningful as Christianity, which is identified as the fulfilment of a divine plan. This is fundamentally different from the standard "prophet" model in which a leader declares that true religion is "beliefs X Y Z", and then acquires followers who accept this revelation. Paul B 12:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi,
Can the page be unprotected so that the vandalism on this page can be deleted? Thanks, Emmanuel
Emmanuel.e 10:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Someone just readded the "blasphemy" charge to the 2nd paragraph, apparently without discussing the change first. Shouldn't it be deleted? Grover cleveland 03:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I have looked into some of the archives but can't find the page where this was discussed. I do have some recollection of the discussion, but as there is no obvious link to the discussion and no reference in the article; perhaps this should be discussed again. What happened was that the scribes and Pharisees wanted to put Jesus to death because of jealously and his apparent blasphemy. They could not do this themselves as only the Romans were currently allowed to put people to death, so they attempted to have Jesus charged with sedition. ross nixon 11:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Scholars who are familiar with Jewish law read the passage of the meeting between Jesus and the highpriest and see there is nothing that occurs that can be construed as religious "blasphemy", according to Jewish law. The meaning of the Greek word "blasphemy" includes a wider sense of "speaking contemptuously" without any religious violation. That may be the intended meaning here. The highpriest had been the political leader of Judea since the beginning of the Hasmonean Period. It may be Jesus was perceived as being insubordinant to this highpriest's authority. If Jesus declared himself to be the king without the highpriest's permission, it could be construed contempt of the highpriest's authority. (Both Christian and Jewish texts are highly critical of highpriests, especially accusing them of being violent and abusive.) Alternatively, some scholars see the highpriest as a perhaps neutral figure, who observes that Jesus's self-enthronement is political "blasphemy" against the Roman emperor. The highpriest's motive is not so much to enforce the Rome's power, as much as it is to protect Judea from the wrath of the Roman armies. Thus, the fact that Jesus refused to renounce his messianic claims was tantamount to inspiring the Jewish masses to revolt against Rome - and thus to percieved suicide. For this reason then, the highpriest "handed over" Jesus to the Roman authorities. In any case, the entire incident between the highpriest and Jesus is part of a complex of specific problems that lead some scholars to suggest it never happened and was written later for other reasons. It just cant be said that "most scholars" agree about this. In the final analysis, Jesus was executed for political reasons against Rome, by Rome. Most scholars agree Jesus was crucified. -- Haldrik 19:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Very interesting. Can you tell me which Bible commentators or historians interpret Matthew 26:25 this way? Slrubenstein | Talk 23:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add a comment stating that the source of the separation between normative Christianity and the Gnostics was over the interpretation of the 'resurrection', as pointed out in the Introduction to the Nag Hammadi Library in English by James Robinson.
Clearly, Christianity believes that the 'resurrection' refers to the raising of a dead physical body from the grave; but, in the Treatise on the Resurrection, it is asserted that the 'resurrection' is believed in by one 'philosopher in the world' (arguably Plato), who believed in the doctrine of 'reincarnation'. Thus, a reasonable deduction is that the doctrine of 'reincarnation' is at least similar to the Gnostic understanding of the 'resurrection'. And it would also fit in with the assertion of Jesus that "John (the Baptist)...is Elijah'.
Whether or not the Gnostic understanding of the 'resurrection' is correct, any statement about Gnosticism which does not include the fundamental reason for the separation between the Gnostics and the Christians is incomplete.
Michael J. 13:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)Michael J.
As long as we stick to good secondary sources, we will keep learning cool stuff like this. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I would argue this is not merely 'cool stuff'. The question is whether this intellectual effort will be an objective description of the conflict. Michael J. Michael J.
There were many different movements which modern scholars lump together as "Gnostics". The obvious reason for the incompatability of Gnosticism with Judeo-Christianity, is that notable Gnostic movements literally demonized the Judeo-Christian God, God's creation, and the Hebrew Bible. The Gnostics declared the God of the Bible a false god, the "demiurge", equivalent to a kind of a satan that created the material world to blind humans to the "true" "spiritual" "god". This belief that the Jewish and Christian God is evil, is antithetical to both Christians and Jews, who believe God and God's creation are ultimately good. -- Haldrik 18:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The obvious reason is obvious, and important, but still one of many historians have discussed. Nuff said here. Haldrik, have you looked at the article on Ebionites? There was a request for peer review and you may have some constructive comments there. Personally, I think it would be worthwhile to look at the range of articles relating second century religious movements competing for dominance or on the fringe of what would later become Rabbinic Judaism or orthodox (or Catholic) Christianity (i.e. including some gnostic movements and Ebionites) as a group, and try to establish uniform standards or areas of concern for each. Others who have contributed to the Jesus article who are expert on early Christianity or late Hellenic/Roman Judaism might want to look at these articles too. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Talmud view of Jesus --unsigned by User talk:81.52.163.8
This external link has a strongly pro-Christian and slightly anti-Jewish (certainly anti-Talmudic) POV. For balance, there should also be an article or external link on the Talmud and Jesus from a Jewish POV. Das Baz 17:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I have checked the Talmud 2 days ago, and the those texts are right. --unsigned by User talk:81.52.163.8
It is absurd to provide a link about the Talmud to a site that doesnt understand the Talmud. The website belongs to a Christian sect that is apocalyptic lunatic fringe, anti-government, rabidly anti-Jewish, and indulges in bizarre extremist claims for the sake of promoting hate. Not a reliable source. -- Haldrik 20:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
thank you great information. --unsigned by User talk:81.52.163.8
Well, do something constructive about it. All the more reason, it seems to me, to write something from the Talmudic viewpoint, without the anti-Semitic slant. I would do it myself, as Storm Rider suggests, if I were a Talmudist. Das Baz 19:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the Yeshu article provides fairly comprehensive coverage of the Talmud's portrayal of "Yeshu." Slrubenstein | Talk 15:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Isnt Jesus' real name Yoshua Ben Yosef? Also, this article should list his names in each religion such as Isa in Islam